| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Icewolf |
Posted - 24 Nov 2005 : 04:06:35
I am preparing to run a higher-powered game. One of my players wants to play a Solar. He went through a lot of trouble to impress me with a story, so I'm inclined to grant his request. This game will be starting from level 1, however, so if I can't find a level progession, (ala Savage Species) I'm gonna have to tell him no.
I can't find squat on the Boards that shall not be named, so I thought I'd try here. Thanks for any help in advance,
The Icewolf |
| 19 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 05 Dec 2005 : 15:16:37
Wouldn't they have to get a promotion to Plantaer first? But then again, if it's a chaotic deity, they might be able to jump right from Astral to Solar.
C-Fb |
| warlockco |
Posted - 25 Nov 2005 : 19:16:00
Possible solution, not perfect, but sorta "balanced" is the player can play as an Astra Deva up to 20th level, then you can start to layer on the Solar abilities, as they get "promoted" |
| Kes_Alanadel |
Posted - 25 Nov 2005 : 19:12:23
IIRC (don't have time to go through the books right now) there is no level adjustment for a Solar, because it is considered unplayable for anything below about 25th level. They are just to powerful of a race, with the spells, immunities, etc. One would also have to figure out a progression for the magical abilites of their weapons as well (like the Trumpet Archon). My suggestion for your player would be to play a Ghaele Eladrin, Astral Deva, or Trumpet Archon (20 level progressions) if they want a powerful celestial without classes until Epic, or one of the celestials that have a smaller progression [Hound Archon (11 level), Avoral(14 level)] and be able to have class levels sooner.
Just my 2 coppers
~Kes |
| Tifus Artwin |
Posted - 25 Nov 2005 : 08:27:18
Considering theres no true rules for making up a Epic progression for a 1st lvl thu 34th-49th lvl Racial progression I think we can relax the Rules on this one a bit.
Im also not one to stick to the Rules I like to change things to make it interesting, and fun for all, which in this case means coming up with a Racial Progression for a race that is already Epic to start with, so balancing this class/race will mean a lower LA then what Savage would other wise suggest, figuring a +12 LA and 22HD makes this progression a 34th lvl character, starting off, Id give 2HD, then skip one, 2HD skip ect...
Starting the Spell progression at the 2nd HD will insure that the character isnt overtly powerful to fast, and delaying the progression every 3 lvls slows everything down a bit more. I have not looked up special abilitys of the Solar, but id advise dividing them up as they have done with the Geale in SS, (namely any spell-like abilitys).
For the ability adjustments stager them every 4 lvls or so, and only give the increase of +2 to one maybe two abilitys at a time, and I wouldnt give spellresistance until atleast 8th lvl.
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| Arivia |
Posted - 25 Nov 2005 : 08:00:51
quote:
Originally posted by Tifus Artwin
OK, first off sorry for any confusion over abbreviated words
Thanks.
quote:
second I posted to try and help out a fellow, and if I knew I was going to be quoted and corrected in such a way I would have stayed at Wizards
I'm sorry, but this is a section of the D&D 3e rules where rules precision is very important, and as such, I did respond to you as I normally did so that we didn't get caught up in things that are utterly wrong.
quote:
I havent looked through Savage Species in quite some time, so I cant recall of the top of my head every single rule, only a general list of rules. Yes I know that means that everything I said would not have been perfectly accurate.
Okay, that's fine-I'm just responding as I have, and provided references for you to do your own research.
quote:
At the same time however NO ONE would want to play a Race as you are putting it forth, more then a +12 LA makes ANY race to weak, Epic Levels makes that distintion even more.
Alright, but that still doesn't mean we can distort the rules over it. Icewolf asked for the progression, and as such, it is my responsibility to provide a progression that is as bound to the rules standard as possible, that way, if he needs to change it for the suitability of his game, then he can do so, without being bound up in someone else's ideas of what is balanced and what is not. Understandable?
quote:
To the Mods, sorry, but I hate when others do this, corrections is one thing, quoting the rules line for line is just superfluous and I tend not to set by and take it.
Quoting rules sources is not superfluous when the discussion is entirely about game rules. |
| Tifus Artwin |
Posted - 25 Nov 2005 : 07:22:22
OK, first off sorry for any confusion over abbreviated words, second I posted to try and help out a fellow, and if I knew I was going to be quoted and corrected in such a way I would have stayed at Wizards, I havent looked through Savage Species in quite some time, so I cant recall of the top of my head every single rule, only a general list of rules. Yes I know that means that everything I said would not have been perfectly accurate. At the same time however NO ONE would want to play a Race as you are putting it forth, more then a +12 LA makes ANY race to weak, Epic Levels makes that distintion even more.
So, in closing, thanks for reminding me about the Wizards board.
To the Mods, sorry, but I hate when others do this, corrections is one thing, quoting the rules line for line is just superfluous and I tend not to set by and take it. |
| Arivia |
Posted - 25 Nov 2005 : 07:05:55
quote:
Originally posted by Tifus Artwin
Im thinking that a +17 LA is a bit on the extreme side.
Not for epic play, which has been mentioned in this scroll as something we take into account. Compare to the ECLs in the ELH 3.5 update.
quote:
The use of 20th lvl cleric spells would be easy, just start the spell progression at 2nd lvl, and continue to advance it with every Racial HD, that will negate the LA for cleric spells.
That's the easiest way to set it up, yes.
quote:
The massive Ability adjustments would warrant no more then a +1 LA, but I would still stagger them over the entire progression starting with at the most about a +2 on each ability at 1st lvl, and adding more as it continues.
See pages 11 and 155 of Savage Species, first. Secondly, we're talking over +50 in distributed ability bonuses here-that's completely overpowered for just +1 in LA.
quote:
The ability to cast a Wish should warrant nothing on the LA, it still cost 5000xp to use, and would only be avalable at around 20th lvl.
See page 19 of Savage Species-wishes are incredibly powerful, and even more so as spell-like abilities, considering you don't have to pay the xp for them(see page 315 of the MM3.5)
quote:
By SS, a NA higher then a +4 is a +2 LA
Please don't abbreviate natural armor like that-creating abbreviations only leads to confusion in D&D these days. Now see page 11 of Savage Species and reread the entry on natural armor carefully-it's an additional +1 for each 5 points of natural armor bonus. quote:
and the Regeneration would be a +1 at most.
See page 17 of Savage Species. |
| Tifus Artwin |
Posted - 25 Nov 2005 : 06:52:16
Im thinking that a +17 LA is a bit on the extreme side.
The use of 20th lvl cleric spells would be easy, just start the spell progression at 2nd lvl, and continue to advance it with every Racial HD, that will negate the LA for cleric spells.
The massive Ability adjustments would warrant no more then a +1 LA, but I would still stagger them over the entire progression starting with at the most about a +2 on each ability at 1st lvl, and adding more as it continues.
The ability to cast a Wish should warrant nothing on the LA, it still cost 5000xp to use, and would only be avalable at around 20th lvl.
By SS, a NA higher then a +4 is a +2 LA, and the Regeneration would be a +1 at most.
At any rate Id say the LA would be no more then a +12 LA, anymore then that would make the Solar to weak with in a few lvls. And dont forget that the character couldnt start progressing in any other class until they finished the Racial progression. As it stands that would make the class a 34 level progression (useing a +12LA). |
| warlockco |
Posted - 24 Nov 2005 : 19:10:18
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Savage Species says that as long as spellcasting isn't above HD or CR, there's no level adjustment, which makes a lot of sense.
Yuck, this is one instance where I would have to disagree with Savage Species.
Best BAB, Best Saving Throws, plus Cleric Spells, on top of everything else, that is just grossly overpowered.
Which does make sense for Solars, since they are "minor gods" that have decided to serve another god or cause instead of being worshipped as a god. They aren't described in that way in 3E, but that is how they were described in previous editions. |
| Arivia |
Posted - 24 Nov 2005 : 19:01:43
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
We know the astral deva has an ECL of +8, and its' special abilities are fairly similar to the solar's, so let's start there.
+8 LA
+1 for the next 6 points of natural armor bonus
+1 for epic damage reduction
+2 for regeneration
+3 for wish ability
+2 for increased ability scores
How much of an LA would being able to cast spells as a 20th level cleric be though? That is one of the many things that makes a Solar very powerful as a PC.
Savage Species says that as long as spellcasting isn't above HD or CR, there's no level adjustment, which makes a lot of sense. |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 24 Nov 2005 : 18:51:22
Solars usually are held to very few numbers as well - and you have to think of why the direct deity involved would be sending one of his most powerful followers to go adventure.
C-Fb |
| warlockco |
Posted - 24 Nov 2005 : 18:39:04
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
We know the astral deva has an ECL of +8, and its' special abilities are fairly similar to the solar's, so let's start there.
+8 LA
+1 for the next 6 points of natural armor bonus
+1 for epic damage reduction
+2 for regeneration
+3 for wish ability
+2 for increased ability scores
How much of an LA would being able to cast spells as a 20th level cleric be though? That is one of the many things that makes a Solar very powerful as a PC. |
| Arivia |
Posted - 24 Nov 2005 : 17:36:41
We know the astral deva has an ECL of +8, and its' special abilities are fairly similar to the solar's, so let's start there.
+8 LA
+1 for the next 6 points of natural armor bonus
+1 for epic damage reduction
+2 for regeneration
+3 for wish ability
+2 for increased ability scores
|
| warlockco |
Posted - 24 Nov 2005 : 11:36:19
Biggest Problem will be he will have 1HD while the rest of party will have 3-5HD. |
| Chosen of Moradin |
Posted - 24 Nov 2005 : 11:27:23
The hound archon progession is showed in the Planar Handbook, too. I think that this can help to develop the solar... |
| Icewolf |
Posted - 24 Nov 2005 : 07:18:09
@ KnightErrantJR: I checked, and he's willing to do the Deva thing, but he would prefer a Solar. So there's a backup plan, if need be.
@warlocko (And possibly Arivia) I have this game planned out into, well, Highly Epic Levels. (I have more hooks than a fisherman, some of them going up into the 60s for character levels. And that's not counting the hooks the PC will help me find  )
@Arivia: Thank you! Whatever assistance you can lend will be most appreciated. |
| Arivia |
Posted - 24 Nov 2005 : 05:13:37
I'll see if I can take a crack at it in the next day or so-no guarantees, though. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 24 Nov 2005 : 04:22:35
Problem with Solars is they are gonna be in the ECL 30-40 range, if not higher.
22 Outsider HD + Spellcasting as a 20th level Cleric + all their special abilities + a +10 or higher bonus to all stats makes for one powerful character. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 24 Nov 2005 : 04:18:23
Hm . . . part of the problem is that Solar abilities don't streatch out across a 20 level progression, and those are the only ones that have been done thus far. Are you sure he wouldn't be happy with an astral deva? Those are statted out in Savage Species. |
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