| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Elfinblade |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 13:18:57
Can trolls drown? And die from it? this is something i `ve been wondering about since we encountered that kind of problem in our campaign. If anyone can answer this it will be appreciated :) |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Elfinblade |
Posted - 05 Dec 2005 : 19:46:16
well, i have to say. some interesting, and some amusing views came up to this topic.
the conclusion i think, would have to be as a DM, use common sense, and let the bugger die. :)
Thank you all for your well-thought out responses and quotes.
this surely is the right place to post my concerns, questions and trivia :) |
| hooper101 |
Posted - 18 Nov 2005 : 19:38:18
Stop this insanity now or Ill have my Arch druid crossbreed a black and red dragon and then breed with a scrag! Then will have an invincible creature that can only be killed by old age or freezing...........darnit we'll have to get a white involved I hate whites! |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 18 Nov 2005 : 02:15:40
Is he a saltwater or freshwater scrag? 
C-Fb |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 18 Nov 2005 : 00:47:45
Scrags are trolls with the aquatic subtype. If the troll part was scrag, then he could breathe underwater. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 23:27:47
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Also drop a big enough of a rock on the troll, he won't be going anywhere. 
Yup, just wait for them to die of old age. *wink* |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 23:26:09
quote:
Originally posted by hooper101
HUMANOIDS NEED TO BREATH! Unless it specifically says they don't is that not logical?
But is all the game logical in the first place? D&D has some rather illogical abiliteis, events and surviviblities that logic says canm not occur. Also pay scales are not logical, however the world still exists. |
| hooper101 |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 22:51:57
Although give that troll half blck blood and maybe he can stay in the befouled water of a swamp drowning longer than the pcs can stay there. |
| hooper101 |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 22:50:43
HUMANOIDS NEED TO BREATH! Unless it specifically says they don't is that not logical? |
| warlockco |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 22:47:35
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Belthor
So does all of this mean that if a Black Dragon crossbred with a troll, the offspring could only be killed by fire since it would then be immune to death by acid? I'm so confused.
Well cross breeding rules are even harder, but if a half-troll half Black Dragon offspring recieved both regeneration as a troll and Acid imunity as a Black Dragon, the RAW does appear to indicate that yes only fire can kill. *wink*
There off course are the issues of what troll blood and dragon blood confer. Of course a Troll taking Dragon disiple of Black Dragon the answer is clearer.
Half-Black Dragon War Troll.
War Trolls take Lethal Damage only from Acid, compared to other trolls, and are also Monstrous Humanoid instead of Giant for some reason.
Tacking on Immunity to Acid, they take only non-lethal damage, still other ways to kill them, just have to be methodical is all.
Also drop a big enough of a rock on the troll, he won't be going anywhere. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 21:06:22
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Hm . . . what about a fiendish half dragon troll . . . ugh . . . my head hurts . . .
Naw they only get damage reduction and resistance, a fireball can still do lethal damage (just not as much per round) *Grin* |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 20:57:38
Hm . . . what about a fiendish half dragon troll . . . ugh . . . my head hurts . . . |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 20:33:04
quote:
Originally posted by Belthor
So does all of this mean that if a Black Dragon crossbred with a troll, the offspring could only be killed by fire since it would then be immune to death by acid? I'm so confused.
Well cross breeding rules are even harder, but if a half-troll half Black Dragon offspring recieved both regeneration as a troll and Acid imunity as a Black Dragon, the RAW does appear to indicate that yes only fire can kill. *wink*
There off course are the issues of what troll blood and dragon blood confer. Of course a Troll taking Dragon disiple of Black Dragon the answer is clearer. |
| Belthor |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 20:19:06
So does all of this mean that if a Black Dragon crossbred with a troll, the offspring could only be killed by fire since it would then be immune to death by acid? I'm so confused. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 20:08:41
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I'll have to look up what exactly he said, but his point was that some things are not spelled out becuase they should be common sense.
The rule set often defies common sense. *Grin*
It is not a Real World thing where considtantly a 20 level Fighter can walk away from a 100 foot fall. Injuried yes dead very rarely. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 19:56:52
So you could literally sleep for however long as your life span is for, as long as you don't care about being concious . . . the point being its a little strange, lol.
The point about sleep that Rich Berlew made was that sleep is never defined as a state outside of the sleep spell. I'll have to look up what exactly he said, but his point was that some things are not spelled out becuase they should be common sense. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 19:15:18
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Oh as far as sleeping goes there is the requirement of 8 hours of complete rest. Depending on race sleep is clearly indicated to be complet rest. The elves being only core race that do not need to sleep, but even they need to rest 8 hours.
Elves need only 4 hours of rest. 8 to recover spells. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 19:05:31
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Not to mention how amusing it is to think of people without food or water stumbling across Anauroch, taking subdual damage, sleeping, then getting up and staggering for a while, the whole time reassuring themselves,
"Well, at least I only take non lethal damage from thirst and starvation."
"Nonlethal damage from thirst or starvation cannot be recovered until the character gets food or water, as needed—not even magic that restores hit points heals this damage." So the resting 8 hours does not work to get accross Anauroch. Yes there is a gap in the rules here. Oh as far as sleeping goes there is the requirement of 8 hours of complete rest. Depending on race sleep is clearly indicated to be complet rest. The elves being only core race that do not need to sleep, but even they need to rest 8 hours. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 18:23:36
Not to mention how amusing it is to think of people without food or water stumbling across Anauroch, taking subdual damage, sleeping, then getting up and staggering for a while, the whole time reassuring themselves,
"Well, at least I only take non lethal damage from thirst and starvation."
|
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 18:21:16
Yes, indeed, if trolls weren't voracious eating machines capable of tearing most things limb from limb, they would be a pretty amusing creature to observe in the wild . . .
"What's that noise . . ."
"It's just a headless troll looking for its head, no big deal." |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 18:15:54
*LOL* |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 18:12:43
This reminds me of the recuring gag that Rich Berlew brought up in Order of the Stick when he keeps brining up that the rules never mention that you have to sleep. Some things just aren't spelled out as clearly as they could be.
Although I would say that being decapitated wouldn't neccissarily kill it outright, but that without a head it can't breathe, and so it begins the process of suffocating. Then I guess the body starts moving around looking for the head. Of course, if it has average constitution for a troll, it has 46 (!) rounds to pick up its head and reattatch it before it starts to suffocate.
Since it takes 3d6 minutes to regrow a body part, its head could potentially regrow before it starts to have a problem with suffocating, since it can hold its breath for seven and a half minutes, though its probably safer for said troll to just pick up its head and put it back on than hope that it doesn't take the full 18 minutes for its head to come back. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 17:49:11
There is nothing in Troll description that says they have to breath *Grin*
Though they are giant type which has these traits.
quote:
Giant Type
A giant is a humanoid-shaped creature of great strength, usually of at least Large size.
Features
A giant has the following features.
* 8-sided Hit Dice.
* Base attack bonus equal to ¾ total Hit Dice (as cleric).
* Good Fortitude saves.
* Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.
Traits
A giant possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
* Low-light vision.
* Proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as any natural weapons.
* Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Giants not described as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Giants are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
* Giants eat, sleep, and breathe.
But we then need to consider regeneration and what is nonlethal damaage. Nonlethal damage never kills. A person that is unconsious because of a lack of food or water will not die because of it. If not found and either killed or fed the character will die of old age, as per how the rules are written.
This of course is a bug in the rules. There is not anything that directly says a troll needs to breath. As I said before most if not all will say it dies, just nothing in the rules say regenerating creatures die from lack of air. They die from lethal damage acid and fire, oh they might die if their head is cut off as well but that can be open to debate if they need their head. *Grin*
quote:
the weapon severs the opponent’s head (if it has one) from its body. Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads. Most other creatures, however, die when their heads are cut off.
Again nothing in the troll description indicates it needs its head, though a giant type normally does need its head to live.
Oh found this under troll quote:
An attack that can cause instant death only threatens the creature with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage.
so I guess you can not even kill a troll with a vorpal sword (now a flaming vorpal sword might be able to kill a troll by cutting its head off.
The problem is there is no text that indicates a regenerating creature needs air and there is text that nonlethal damage never kills. RAW trolls do not need air because lack of air does not cause lethal damage, only fire and acid does. |
| hooper101 |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 17:08:51
Do they have to breath? If so they die! |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 15:00:07
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
I go with KEJR - I think that Trolls can die by suffocation. But, if you guys still want to know, you should direct your questions to one of our esteemed colleagues over in the Sages forum.
C-Fb
P.s. - By not letting trolls die, that opens all creatures with regeneration to not drown. This is because the pathways destroyed by lack of air would continually rebuild, causing a very vicious loop.
Oh I am sure all of us think they should die and I expect most DMs would kill. The problem is that the rules do not support them dying. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 14:49:45
Suffocation does offer a better arguement, however we are still looking at nonlethal because not fire or acid damage (thus not lethal damage) to get to the -1 lethal damage the round before dying.
quote:
Interestingly enough . . . no one can die due to starvation or thirst the way that is written
Yes I noticed this some time ago which was the foundation for trolls not drowning, because of nonlethal damage is never able to kill. Trolls only take lethal damage from only two things as the rules are written. *wink* |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 14:42:25
I go with KEJR - I think that Trolls can die by suffocation. But, if you guys still want to know, you should direct your questions to one of our esteemed colleagues over in the Sages forum.
C-Fb
P.s. - By not letting trolls die, that opens all creatures with regeneration to not drown. This is because the pathways destroyed by lack of air would continually rebuild, causing a very vicious loop. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 14:39:40
And by the way . . . most of my opinion is just that. Regeneration is kind of a strange ability as described in 3.5, and I'll not claim any particular mastery over knowlage of it. Its just a combination of my reading of it and my gut feelings.
A regenerating predator that is only killed by fire or acid is a nightmare to any ecology. The only balancing point I could think of is that trolls like swamps and so do black dragons . . . |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 14:36:40
Sorry about the starvation thing . . . too cold this morning, my brain must be frostbitten, though I still stand by my interpretation of suffocation.
Interestingly enough . . . no one can die due to starvation or thirst the way that is written . . .  |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 14:27:13
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Also, starvation and thirst do constitution damage, which goes around regeneration, thus they should be able to die from this as well.
The only reason I make these points is without some limits, Trolls should have overrun Faerun a long time ago.
But I look forward to any further discussion on this, since its not written as clearly as it could be.
Starvation and thirst do not do constitution damage, a constitution check is there however failing it means there is additional nonlethal damag. The consitution is not reduced because a Con check is failed, all that occurs is the Con check gets harder to meet.
That is RAW, I would house rule that any of these conditions will do Con damage in addition to or as a replacement for nonlethal damage.
Yes it appears logical that trolls will drown, suffocate and drown however nonlethal damage never kills as per the rules. Yes it causes a problem that trools are very hard to kill there again how many are subjected to such hazzards of lack of food, water or air? Most of the trolls I see killed are by fire, less often acid. *Grin* |
| Khaa |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 14:11:05
Well, going by the rules in the core books, no they cannot die. If i was running a campaign though, If it was not a sea troll, it would die eventually from drowning. I couldnt let them be imune to something like that. |
