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Minardil Posted - 24 May 2003 : 17:54:24
What was year of the Bhaalspawn saga (Story of Baldur's Gate)? Manuals say it's either 1369 or 1373. I ask this becouse I'm planning a grand adventure for my players.
25   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Hoondatha Posted - 24 Feb 2011 : 18:24:17
I've always been partial to the BG storyline, even though it plays fast and loose with a lot of things (planar sphere, Coweled Wizards, Suldanesselar as a major city rather than a green elf hide-out, etc.). But of all the questionable things in the series, the Bhaalspawns' ages never really bothered me. I just figured that they aged faster than normal.

I also figured that at least some of the Bhaalspawn had been concieved well before the ToT. I never really had a good reason why, so I'm gleefully appropriating KEJR's "Ultimate Killer" idea. It works for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is that it's a really easy way for Bhaal to spread the fear of his name without having to do anything himself.

So now I figure that a couple of rounds of Ultimate Killer produced most of the Bhaalspawn that show up as antagonists in ToB. It also explains why many of them are things like giants, dragons, and drow, because Bhaal was looking to breed powerful killers, and the "lesser" races in those generations had already been killed off.

Which meant that when the ToT rolled around, Bhaal had a procedure that had already been proven effective. I think it's entirely believable that a god steeped in as much death as Bhaal might get a sense that "I'm not gonna make it through this one," and take steps to provide for his eventual rebirth.

But just because Bhaal was foresighted doesn't mean he's patient. He wasn't to get resurrected as quickly as possible, so he puts more power into the last-generation Bhaalspawn, causing them to reach adulthood faster than normal. So instead of the Bhaalspawn War taking place 20-25 years after the ToT as it should, it instead happens in half the time. It also gives the new Bhaalspawn a fighting chance against their older brethren, and means the existing Bhaalspawn don't necessarily have a lock on becoming the next Lord of Murder. Because Bhaal's a spiteful deity, and he wouldn't want to make it too easy for them.

I think those two factors, earlier rounds of Ultimate Killer to explain things like Bhaalspawn dragons, and accelerated aging for the ToT Bhaalspawn, tie up that loose end nicely. Now if only resolving the Coweled Wizards was that easy...
Lord of Bones Posted - 12 Sep 2010 : 15:46:23
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Lord of Bones

We may well have a Highlander situation at the end of the game..



Lots of Queen music and sequels that ignore the original story?



Well I was more thinking "There can be only one!" inter-party conflict, but sure! Why not?

Here we are... Princes of the universe...
Wooly Rupert Posted - 12 Sep 2010 : 14:43:30
quote:
Originally posted by Lord of Bones

We may well have a Highlander situation at the end of the game..



Lots of Queen music and sequels that ignore the original story?
Lord of Bones Posted - 12 Sep 2010 : 09:12:48
I'm currently running a campaign on the Sword Coast that encompasses parts of the Bhaalspawn saga. I'm having the PCs wake up (not knowing each other) in Irenicus's dungeon at the start with his claim that they're the route to his divinity, but just as he's getting to the meat of his prophecy, they're broken out by a party of adventurers.

The disparate group (we have a human ranger/druid, a half-drow monk of the long death, a half-orc paladin, a halfling rogue/wizard, an elf sorcerer (with the abyssal bloodline), a human cleric of Kelemvor and a gnome bard), then has to make their way out of his dungeon without equipment, evading monsters, guards and traps (which has been quite fun, seeing characters act in a way their classes usually wouldn't).

The aim is that once they escape the dungeon they will be of the belief that one of them contains Bhaal's divine essence, but in actual fact all of them are children of Bhaal (hence why Irenicus took all of them after many years of research and investigation). We may well have a Highlander situation at the end of the game..
Zireael Posted - 12 Apr 2010 : 20:12:19
quote:
however timeline is really messed up.

Right, and I created another scroll trying to clear it up a bit.
Milith holder of HB8 Posted - 02 Apr 2010 : 19:56:04
Knowing the how the divine works, it probably takes place in more than one timeframe at once =p

Sill Alias Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 10:00:12
How about changing theme of discussion? Plans of powers are realy complicated, so there are many possibilities (I liked theory of Bhaal's killers though).
Talking about canon - not everything is written in guidebooks. I do believe that Bhaalspawn saga is partially true, however timeline is really messed up. But who doesnt make mistakes? Some creatures or characters were created on a whim after all.

Actually I wanted to know who is your favourite NPC?
Wooly Rupert Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 22:27:30
quote:
Originally posted by Finder

Wooly Rupert, I had to sell those two novels. lol. But There was apart of the story while they were on the ship where Finder's Avatar tells joel about how Joel could possibly bring Finder back from the dead with the Finder's stone (which at that time only possed a very small amount of his divine essence/spark) and related to why the Priestess of Bane was after "the Hand of Bane". He explained it very well. Later The Priestess and the Banelich were actually on Bane's corpse flooting on the Astral plain about to cast the ritual to bring Bane back. However Jaz(sp) swooped down and pretty much knocked the hand of bane from the banelich destorying it.


Well, yeah -- it could be used for resurrection, but that was not the intent of it. Just because that was a possible use for it doesn't mean it was the intended use. I can break my window by throwing a printer thru it -- the printer would accomplish that purpose quite well. But the printer wasn't made to do that. It can be used for that purpose, but that likely never entered the minds of the design team.

Going by your arguments, though, since it could be used to break windows, that would be the intended purpose.

That's why I'm saying that neither the Finder's Stone nor the Hand of Bane were backup plans.

quote:
Originally posted by Finder

Not too sure about Fzouls part in Banes return, but I stand behind what I said about Xvim.


Xvim was the Baneson, and he did contain part of Bane's essence. But that doesn't mean that Bane had any particular plan in mind when he fathered Xvim. Some legends say Xvim's mom was a paladin -- maybe Bane's only purpose in fathering Xvim was to corrupt the paladin. Some legends say Xvim was born from a demon -- maybe Bane fathered him to seal some deal. We don't know. It could even be that you are correct, and that Bane did father Xvim as a backup plan -- but there isn't anything to support that, either.

quote:
Originally posted by Finder

I also will ask you a question. To have a contingency plan do you believe you need to know when and how you die?



Not at all. But just because something can be read to be a contingency plan doesn't mean it is -- especially when no evidence supports that it is, and there is evidence that indicates it wasn't.
Finder Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 20:28:37
Wooly Rupert, I had to sell those two novels. lol. But There was apart of the story while they were on the ship where Finder's Avatar tells joel about how Joel could possibly bring Finder back from the dead with the Finder's stone (which at that time only possed a very small amount of his divine essence/spark) and related to why the Priestess of Bane was after "the Hand of Bane". He explained it very well. Later The Priestess and the Banelich were actually on Bane's corpse flooting on the Astral plain about to cast the ritual to bring Bane back. However Jaz(sp) swooped down and pretty much knocked the hand of bane from the banelich destorying it.

Not too sure about Fzouls part in Banes return, but I stand behind what I said about Xvim.

I also will ask you a question. To have a contingency plan do you believe you need to know when and how you die?
Wooly Rupert Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 17:00:15
quote:
Originally posted by Finder

Wooly Rupert, I don't know man, if you give Tymora's Luck and perhaps Finder's Bane, it is pretty much discussed at length by Finder, and pushed by the Banelich to get these items to perform a ritual to resurrect the tyrant.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dlnovel/085830000
http://www.amazon.com/Finders-Bane-Forgotten-Realms-Lost/dp/0786906588

You are right Xvim didn't know and was not interested in his fathers return. But that doesn't mean Bane hadn't created him in his own foresight of one day being killed. I don't have it in front of me but the FR 3rd ed guide pretty much says Bane had planned his resurrection all alone and Xvim had or was his living seed.

So again I say it appears to be a common practice for God's to have a contingency plan, even as you point out Finder whom is a reckless God had one. I sold the novel but I believe it went something like this "I keep a piece of my essence inside the Finders Stone, much like the hand of Bane. If I was to be killed, you could Find my body in the astral plan and perform a ritual to resurrect me" Again I admit I'm completely paraphrasing this but that’s basically what he said. What you might be thinking about is when he placed his entire divine spark into the finder’s stone, which was not his contingency plan, but away to get into that godless city which is escaping my memory right now.




I have those novels, and I've read them recently. Finder put his essence in the Finder's Stone so that he could pretend to be mortal, and then again to enter Sigil. He gave it no more thought than that -- it was not a contingency or a failsafe or anything like that, it was simply him trying to go on another adventure. If it had been some sort of failsafe, do you think he would have just left it in his pocket?

The Banelich couldn't resurrect Bane because it wasn't alive. More than anything else, that tells me that the function of Baneliches had nothing to do with bringing Bane back if something happened. There's also nothing about that in the supplement that first intro'ed the Banelich, the Ruins of Zhentil Keep boxed set. From the MC entry in that box:

"Tired of his faithful becoming victims, every 50-60 years Bane chose the most powerful priest within the anks of his clerics and revealed to him or her a foul rite that would transform he caster, through force of faith, strength of will, and Bane' divine hand, into a powerful, immortal form -- lich of Bane, or Banelich."

and

"In ancient times Baneliches used their remarkable powers to spread the word of Bane across Faerūn and defend the god's faithful. They were supposed to serve as ultimate guardians of the faith. Many Baneliches were worshiped as demipowers and were referred to as the "Mouths of Bane" by any who came into contact with them. However, once the followers of the good Faerūnian deities, especially Lathanderites, learned of the existence of a Banelich, they gathered in force to destroy it before the creature's power became too great. As a further problem, each Banelich considered himself or herself to be the natural leader of the church, and was reluctant to relinquish temporal power to a living High Imperceptor. This caused grave internal problems within the church. Consequently, Bane was not entirely satisfied with his Baneliches and chose not to reveal the dark ritual to any of his priesthood after 1010 DR. Before this date, records have revealed signs of at least 35 Baneliches coming into existence, and the deaths of only 10 have been documented."

And the FRCS does not say Bane had planned his resurrection, nor even hint at it. Faiths & Pantheons says it seemed -- their specific wording -- that Xvim had been a incubator for Bane, but it not only does not say that specifically, it also does not mention it being any kind of plan. Just because something happened doesn't mean it was planned.

I actually have three theories on Bane's return. Two of them build off of Fzoul's actions. It's possible that Xvim had some of Bane's essence, but not enough to do anything until Fzoul went around and killed a bunch of the Baneliches. Then those returned bits of Bane's essence achieved a kind of critical mass, allowing Bane to be reborn. Theory 1 is that this was planned, though not a lot backs this up. Theory 2 is that it wasn't planned. Not much backs this one up, either. My third theory is that Bane hasn't returned at all, and that Xvim is using his name to increase his own power. The fact that the new Bane acts like Xvim in some ways backs this one up.

So I return to my original point: there is no evidence whatsoever that any god other than Bhaal -- and not having read those books, I can't comment on them -- planned for his own resurrection.
Finder Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 14:50:43
Wooly Rupert, I don't know man, if you give Tymora's Luck and perhaps Finder's Bane, it is pretty much discussed at length by Finder, and pushed by the Banelich to get these items to perform a ritual to resurrect the tyrant.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dlnovel/085830000
http://www.amazon.com/Finders-Bane-Forgotten-Realms-Lost/dp/0786906588

You are right Xvim didn't know and was not interested in his fathers return. But that doesn't mean Bane hadn't created him in his own foresight of one day being killed. I don't have it in front of me but the FR 3rd ed guide pretty much says Bane had planned his resurrection all alone and Xvim had or was his living seed.

So again I say it appears to be a common practice for God's to have a contingency plan, even as you point out Finder whom is a reckless God had one. I sold the novel but I believe it went something like this "I keep a piece of my essence inside the Finders Stone, much like the hand of Bane. If I was to be killed, you could Find my body in the astral plan and perform a ritual to resurrect me" Again I admit I'm completely paraphrasing this but that’s basically what he said. What you might be thinking about is when he placed his entire divine spark into the finder’s stone, which was not his contingency plan, but away to get into that godless city which is escaping my memory right now.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 18 Aug 2008 : 17:01:11
quote:
Originally posted by Finder

KnightErrantJR, I really like your post but you are forgetting something.

quote:

"So how do the Bhaalspawn fit into this? Bhaal did intentionally father mortal children. But for what? Was Bhaal really that much more ahead of the game than the other gods that he set up this convoluted "backup" system? Maybe, but maybe not."


Yes many of the Gods were "ahead" of the game. If you remember Bane had many such plans in action. To name only a handful (slight pun haha). There was "The Hand of Bane" which possed a spark of Banes Divine essence. The Baneliches which also possessed in some form a piece of Bane and who's mission was to bring bane back to life. Also we can not forget banes own son, Xvim (who's story I liked) was actually pretty much a living seed of Bane.

Even Finder Wyvernspur an extremely young and weak demi power even had the Finder's stone as a source to resurrect him if need be. Moander seems to have at least half a dozen such items documented. So I would guess that it is pretty common for dieties to have a contingency plan in place.

Besides that I kinda agree with your post.



Actually, I don't know of any evidence that suggests that any of the Bane stuff you mention was part of a contingency plan. Besides, even if it was, why so many plans -- and why was one foiled simply by it being a woman that tried to pull it off? The Baneliches, despite having some of his divine essence, weren't capable of bringing him back. Xvim showed little inclination to do so on his own. And we don't really know the circumstances of Bane's return. It could have been that he was as surprised by it as anyone. Or -- the theory I favor -- Bane never did return; Xvim is impersonating him and using his name.

And as I've said before, I find the idea of the ultimate tyrant planning for his defeat to be out of character.

The Finder's Stone wasn't a backup plan -- that was purely him being reckless.

The part of Moander that remains wasn't a contingency plan, either. Elves trapped him. That's not a contingency plan, that's a happy accident for him. An "oh crap!" moment becoming the only hope for survival isn't much of a plan.
Finder Posted - 18 Aug 2008 : 15:36:00
KnightErrantJR, I really like your post but you are forgetting something.

quote:

"So how do the Bhaalspawn fit into this? Bhaal did intentionally father mortal children. But for what? Was Bhaal really that much more ahead of the game than the other gods that he set up this convoluted "backup" system? Maybe, but maybe not."


Yes many of the Gods were "ahead" of the game. If you remember Bane had many such plans in action. To name only a handful (slight pun haha). There was "The Hand of Bane" which possed a spark of Banes Divine essence. The Baneliches which also possessed in some form a piece of Bane and who's mission was to bring bane back to life. Also we can not forget banes own son, Xvim (who's story I liked) was actually pretty much a living seed of Bane.

Even Finder Wyvernspur an extremely young and weak demi power even had the Finder's stone as a source to resurrect him if need be. Moander seems to have at least half a dozen such items documented. So I would guess that it is pretty common for dieties to have a contingency plan in place.

Besides that I kinda agree with your post.
Hawkins Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 16:35:47
quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare

However, The Throne of Bhaal's backstory conflicts with that of Baldur's Gate 1. In that, a letter written by Gorion tells you that your mother was a close friend and ex-lover of his, and died giving birth to you. There are numerous theories to explain this: Gorion made the whole thing up to protect you; your mother was Gorion's ex-lover AND a priestess of Bhaal, though he didn't know it at the time and later went into denial about it; the Solar lied for some reason involving "The Greater Good"; the Solar was a fiend and/or a servant of Cyric in disguise; and several others. All it really boils down to is that the writers of ToB cocked it up (and yes, they did later admit to this ).

Just for a simple fix here, the main character's mother could have easily been Gorion's lover before becoming a priestess of Bhaal. That would make abundant sense IMO. Also, being male and an ex-lover, Gorion would very likely have tried to "save her from her folly."
Caedwyr Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 03:20:32
And even then, since the continuity between BG1 and ToB suffers at times, the veracity of those statements are fairly hazy leaving lots of wiggle room. I've even seen it suggested that the apparitions testifying for the Solar in the pocket plane are saying what the Solar wants them to say; truth or not.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 02:11:59
The apparition of the PC's mother in the PC's pocket plane mentions that during the Time of Troubles Bhaal "whispered into her ear" that she would give birth to one of his spawn. That implies that the PC was actually born during or after the Time of Troubles, even though that doesn't make sense.

That's not saying anything about other Bhaalspawn though, just the PC.
Caedwyr Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 20:59:22
No, it doesn't explicitly say that all the Bhaalspawn were conceived during the Time of Troubles. I've seen that supposition mentioned a number of times, but in the games themselves there's nothing that says that the Bhaalspawn couldn't have been conceived long before the Time of Troubles. Bhaal saw the writing on the wall long before his death and had plenty of time to plan and set his plans in motion.
Aina Grey Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 17:47:04
the handbook (and the in-game journal) of BG1 tell that the events start in Flamerule 1371, 13 years after the ToT

does ToB really reveal that CHARNAME was conceived during the ToT? must have missed that, the three or four times I went through the game...
cause I read an interview with one of the creators of BG 1 or 2, can“t remember which, that says that the protagonist is around 19 or 20 when the game starts... (and it is pretty obvious that in the game the protagonist is indeed not 12-14)
Ulicus Posted - 23 Aug 2007 : 13:08:23
quote:
Originally posted by Minardil

What was year of the Bhaalspawn saga (Story of Baldur's Gate)? Manuals say it's either 1369 or 1373. I ask this becouse I'm planning a grand adventure for my players.


Heh. Four years late, but for anyone who's still interested in the exact placement of "Bhaalspawn Saga" in canon then I can say, with reasonable certainty that everything went down in 1368 DR.

Baldur's Gate ends "late in the summer of the year of the Banner" (BGII:SoA page 1). So, sometime in early-to-mid Elient.

Shadows of Amn is implied to take place over "a month" (BGII:SoA 186), which takes us into early-to-mid Marpenoth.

And on the first page of Throne of Bhaal, the date is listed Marpenoth 1368 DR. When it ends depends on how long it takes for the events of ToB to get done, but I imagine that it all finished up sometime in Uktar.

In other words... it all happened before Kelemvor's ascension and the fall of Zhentil Keep. Which is a pretty vital point that I'll be bringing up in a campaign I'm running that ties the novels' events (and Abdel's rejection of divinity) with the rise of Kelemvor.

Let's just say that Kelemvor's realised that he's inherited a divine essence (and part of a portfolio, since I've not gone with the 'Myrkul has death' retcon) with plans of its own.
boddynock Posted - 06 May 2007 : 10:34:26
Bhaalspawn is mentioned in "empires of faerun". So, they are canon now.
boddynock Posted - 27 Feb 2007 : 17:47:21
quote:
[i] Now, that's not to say you could not use it for your campaign, but you will not find any canon sources. The only products regarding the game Wizards had any hand in were the novelizations done of the game (possible the worst FR books ever done).[/blue]



good point. I have more than a handful FR-novels and one of them goes about Baldur's Gate (i think it was city of Amn). I didn't like the book 'cause the only thing that happened was bashing. I stopped reading when i was in the half.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin Posted - 26 Feb 2007 : 23:54:18
I never did care for the revelation scene regarding the PC's mother in ToB. The player is even told that the PC was conceived during the Time of Troubles, which--if true--would have made the PC no older than 13 or so (if they weren't even younger).
Xandos Anskul Posted - 26 Feb 2007 : 13:12:10
True... if you have to reconcile them, the one that probably makes the most sense is he lied to protect you (Obi-wan style). Otherwise its like "Yeah, I killed your mom."
nbnmare Posted - 26 Feb 2007 : 07:31:39
However, The Throne of Bhaal's backstory conflicts with that of Baldur's Gate 1. In that, a letter written by Gorion tells you that your mother was a close friend and ex-lover of his, and died giving birth to you. There are numerous theories to explain this: Gorion made the whole thing up to protect you; your mother was Gorion's ex-lover AND a priestess of Bhaal, though he didn't know it at the time and later went into denial about it; the Solar lied for some reason involving "The Greater Good"; the Solar was a fiend and/or a servant of Cyric in disguise; and several others. All it really boils down to is that the writers of ToB cocked it up (and yes, they did later admit to this ).
Xandos Anskul Posted - 26 Feb 2007 : 05:34:40
Speaking as one who is finishing up the entire BG series as we speak (for about the 3rd or 4th time):

The PC Game describes Bhaal as specifically forseeing his own death, which is why he walked Toril and made the Bhaalspawn shortly before the Time of Troubles. On your pocket plane, a Solar reveals your past to you: your mother was a priestess of Bhaal, one of many chosen to have one of his children. The purpose of this was for all of the mothers to sacrifice their babies and children, leaving no one of them to gather up the essence but have it rather reform as Bhaal. Gorion of Candlekeep and others found out about this, breaking up the ceremony and rescuing some (the player character) and letting others die while others escaped on their own (Sarevok). And yes, in the game Cyric does try to own you indirectly.

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