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 Runelords in the Realms, Netheril and Larloch

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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Matrix Sorcica Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 18:53:54
Looking at LordofBone's version of Larloch, I'm wondering... My campaign takes place in a setting that's mostly the Sword Coast (really a mix of various settings, but for the purpose of this thread, more or less the Realms) in the years just before the return of Shade. So a lot of focus on Nethereese ruins and stuff, and a major event will be the return itself, all witnessed by the party.

All well and good, but after this campaign I'd like to run Rise of the Runelords in the Realms and Sword Coast vicinity and it occurred to me..... Those runelords seem pretty tame compared to both Shade and in particular to Larloch as he has been presented both in 3.x and now PF. Not to mention the myriad of other powerful spellcasters and groupings of spellcasters.

So, how to make the return of one runelord look like something worth the attention of a campaign?

Also, how do I make the return of a runelord not feel like a repetition of the return of Shade?

Thanks.
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
The Arcanamach Posted - 14 Aug 2018 : 03:02:21
Came looking to see if anyone had done work on running RotRL in the Realms and find your Misbegotten Realms being discussed extensively. The MR is hands down my biggest desire to see complete MT. I hope you find a renewed interest in it one day. That said, do you have a copy of the map you posted earlier in the thread available? I'd like it both with and without location names on it.
Matrix Sorcica Posted - 04 Mar 2018 : 20:37:25
Ah, thanks. I just finished the first novel and found it quite entertaining. Now to the next. (gotta fill out the wait
Markustay Posted - 04 Mar 2018 : 19:33:51
"Magic is different". If you do get to read the novels, it shows you what a hard time the Chosen of Mystra had (Elminster was even 'sent to Hell', quite literally). Especially in regards to the Phaerimm (who are magic-resistant). When the Shades first showed up, they were hailed as 'welcome allies', but that quickly turned sour, especially once the Phaerimm were 'on the ropes'.

So between the Phaerimm's bizarre, anti-magic abilities and the Shades use of the Shadoweave (which works for the novels but mechanically in D&D, not so much), normal (Arcane) magic is pretty useless, and can also cause devastating results to reality when the different types are mixed. For example, the Chosen try to bypass all this 'magic resistance' by going straight to Silver Fire (Spellfire), which reacts violently with Shadow-magic (like matter and antimatter). The Chosen accidentally ripped a great big tear in reality, which Elminster had to 'close from the other side' (which is how he wound-up in Hell).

So, you just make their own abilities dangerous to them - thats what the authors did (mostly Troy Denning, but Ed Greenwood also wrote the subplot novel Elminster in Hell). And like I said, when the Shades arrived they weren't listed as 'bad guys'. It wasn't until after they started changing the weather patterns of Faerūn (covertly) that people began to suspect something was amiss.

Edited for spelling error.
Matrix Sorcica Posted - 04 Mar 2018 : 11:23:17
In the meantime, while it may be a long time before it becomes relevant, I've already started thinking - what will keep these very high level characters from immediately starting an assault on returned Shade?
Matrix Sorcica Posted - 03 Mar 2018 : 22:06:25
I would much prefer the conversion. Sorry for the confusion. I should have specified that it was just musings. I too see the potential for a lot of adventures in Varisia, so would be a shame not to grab the opportunity.
So please.

Unless I cause a TPK it will be quite a while before I need it.

Oh, and a map one day that combines 'nentir vale north' with 'Varisia south' is almost too perfect.
Markustay Posted - 03 Mar 2018 : 18:43:30
Yes and no. I got side-tracked (because of this).

You prefer to move it North? And NOT use Varisia? That would be far easier, actually. Just sub-out the Shoanti for the Uthgardt. I can place all the locales (just ignore some of the backstory). The only reason why I was going through all the trouble of a full conversion was because there are a LOT of adventures set in Varisia, aside from just RotR.

I wanted to get something else done first, because it would help a little with some of this. In fact, I just opened this map back up last night to use a part of it in the thing I am working on ATM (the western edge of the High Moor area). You did say it was going to be a little while before you headed this way, correct?

Which would you prefer now? Should I finish the conversion, or would you rather just shoe-horn RotRL into the existing realms? As a mental exercise, I enjoy doing the full conversion (its fun crating new places out of two different old places), but a semi-conversion just requires me plunking PF locales down on an existing map of The North. In which case, I really need to go back and complete my Nentir Vale Conversion (which will give me a base to work from - I do not want to use my older maps that were done in the '3e style', ESPECIALLY when borrowing from another company's IP).
Matrix Sorcica Posted - 03 Mar 2018 : 08:56:46
Any news on this?

I've also been thinking on how to fit RotR in the North without using Varisia, but keeping most parts north of Daggerford. In some ways this would be preferable to keep most of my campaigns in the same general area.

It's a bit tricky as I'm not strong in FR lore. On one hand, it makes it difficult to fit things, on the other hand I've no idea of the canon I'm steamrolling, making it easier....
Matrix Sorcica Posted - 21 Feb 2018 : 07:32:36
No worries, I'm just grateful for all your help and I'm sure the result will be very helpful.

Those 'MarcusRealms' sure sounds tantalizing - and fun!
Markustay Posted - 20 Feb 2018 : 23:18:33
Sadly, at the end of last night (I think I went to bed around 4AM), I decided it probably would have been in YOUR best interest to keep Varisia full-sized, since you didn't care for a lot of the stuff I went crazy trying to save. I approached it more from a "if I wanted this done, here is how I would do it", rather than from your PoV. And its STILL NOT 'how I would have done it', since my Misbegotten Realms has it somewhere else (much further south, but then everything else moved as well).

After I pasted-in a full sized version, I lost pretty much all of 'the Backlands' (the region covered by Volo's guide to the Sword Coast, which never saw a full map - or coverage - anywhere else). But certain other things lined-up kind of nifty, like I could have connected the escarpment in Varisia to the northern cliffs of Skull gorge (and then just have those mountains there be the 'southern side' of the Gorge). It would have also competely replaced The high Moor with the Varisian Uplands, which is probably what you were picturing. I went to bed thinking I'd start all over, but have now decided against it, because I just don't have the time. I have other projects I really need to get back to. So I'll just finish what I have, and hopefully you'll find it useful.

And as far as replacing Anauroch with a new 'High Moor' - yeah, they should have done that. They got so scared after 4e they back-peddled WAY too much. Maybe some day I'll try to 'fix the Realms', again, like I did with my MR setting, but only use realms (or homebrew) stuff. I think that might be acceptable on the DMsGuild.
Matrix Sorcica Posted - 20 Feb 2018 : 12:50:12
Just wanted to throw this into the mix. It's from a thread about Anauroch in 5E, from March 2017. I very much agree with your sentiments, Marcus. I'm mentioning it here because I feel it would a) improve utility of the High Moor and Anauroch and b) fit rather well with RotR (and maybe other APs as well).

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

EDIT:
Personally, they SHOULD get rid of the desert - its stupid. Maybe put a new moor in there. Such a huge one would be redundant with the High Moor, though. Of course, they could have - and SHOULD HAVE - gotten rid of the High Moor in 4e/5e, and then the Anauroch could be our new version of that (semi-impassable, 'monastery' territory filled with icky badness). The desert is just SO boring... and inappropriate.

Of course, the 5e maps are done, and they didn't fix a thing - just reset it to 1e, including all the 'broken bits'. I guess we can all go back to our original complaints from the 90's now (we get to reboot the complaints? LOL!)

So yeah, they need to get right on that. Put the High Moor where Anauroch was, and put the 'High Elven kingdom' of Miyeritar where the High Moor was (and give that kingdom a bit of a pre-fall Aryvandaar vibe, with different factions having different stances about this 'new world', humans, isolationism, etc). So basically, we get a somewhat 'darker' version of Evermeet where Evermeet would actually be useful.


quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Like I said, something more akin to what the 'High Moor' has always been (but sadly, received so little attention all these years), and then take the High moor and turn it into something else (since what was there wasn't "working for the setting"). We had a perfectly good novel + lore on how it was changing, and like everything else, it just got completely ignored. They changed things that should NOT have been changed, and DIDN'T change things that should have been changed.

Parts of the Anauroch cold possibly remain 'cold desert' (Gobi) - preferably, all that stuff where the ice is/was, and then the rest can just be a mixed bag of 'badlands' - rough broken terrain, swamps and bogs, monster-infested hills, patches of 'wild magic' ('Plaguelands'), patches of 'elemental chaos', etc, etc = it could be like an FR version of Eberron's 'Mournlands', but even more interesting and diverse). Even throw in some 'the geography can change in an instant', with the earth heaving up, or flash-floods, etc. It could be pretty awesome, and oh-so-useful for placing any type of adventure (because you could have 'pockets' of any type of climate).

As I said earlier, take the whole Rhymanthiin, the City of Hope stuff and run with it. Run WILD with it (literally). Give us an old-school (Crown wars era) Elven Kingdom, with various factions and all sort of Cloak & Dagger stuff going on, and a definite 'anti-human' sentiment running high amongst many (similar to what Myth Drannor used to be like). We have something along those lines in a cuple of forest in the south... BUT NO-ONE USES THE DAMN SOUTH (yes, i know YOU do... but you are int he minority, so sit down ). They are FOCUSING on 'The North' in 5e, so lets take that and run with it - lets extend 'The North' all the way south to Baldur's Gate, and all the way east to the Tunlands and Anauroch (and the Goblin Marches). Lets get some of that goodness we had down south (ancient, creepy Elven kingdoms) and put it up north, where we can 'play with it'.

In fact, looking at the map that came with Storm King's Thunder, I would say that region (in its entirety) should be THE focus for FR stuff moving forward, so not just 'The North' (but thats what most of that map is, and the 'border areas' of it). We actually finally have a chance to get some of the barely-covered areas 'get some love' in 5e. We'll never* see them do 'the whole world' again - thats counter-productive, so lets really take what we ARE getting and make it amazing.
sleyvas Posted - 19 Feb 2018 : 22:39:30
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Also, kingmaker has a Runelord in it, and if you were to run that, the obvious place would be in the Border Kingdoms.



Which also given that the Shaar is where we have the most lore of Cyclops existing... kind of fits.... may not fit with the rise of the runelords campaign though (and by may.. no clue).
Matrix Sorcica Posted - 19 Feb 2018 : 21:38:04
I never read Kingmaker, so didn't know that! Interesting.

quote:

If I were to go back into that project ("never say never"), I 'might' use this for a basis for what I do there, but I wouldn't need to worry about the sizing problems because Cormyr isn't there in the Misbegotten Realms, its to the west of the Sword Coast.

That would be awesome!
Markustay Posted - 19 Feb 2018 : 21:22:47
Also, kingmaker has a Runelord in it, and if you were to run that, the obvious place would be in the Border Kingdoms.
Matrix Sorcica Posted - 19 Feb 2018 : 21:08:30
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

There actually is one, but its unfinished - most of the stuff is unlabeled, and at this point, I may not remember what they were 9although, all the maps are still there, layered in the GIMP file, so I should be able to figure it out).
quote:
Originally posted by Matrix Sorcica

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yes, IIRC I HAD reduce Varisia by the exact same amount when I swapped it for Aglarond... and that annoyed me. I'm over it now.

Good
Would you have to reduce it if it shouldn't replace Aglarond, but just be "south of Waterdeep?
Yes, that's what I said above. For this - since this is just a quick one-off because ITS FUN (and that IS the primary reason why i do maps in the first place), I'm not concerned, but the other was suppose to be a real project for people to run with, and so, I wanted to keep ALL maps size correctly, even when they got mashed together in some places. I had decided - when I was still working on it - that I was going to go back in and change it and make it full size, which would have meant moving just about everything else... which may have contributed to me just dropping the whole thing. My constant striving for perfection is usually what contributes to me abandoning projects.


Okay I misunderstood about resizing. Very much agree about the fun, it's just our luck that your idea of fun maps are so incredibly cool and useful for the rest of us

If you have the chance to dig up a high res version of that section of your other map, I'd be much obliged.
Markustay Posted - 19 Feb 2018 : 20:54:33
There actually is one, but its unfinished - most of the stuff is unlabeled, and at this point, I may not remember what they were 9although, all the maps are still there, layered in the GIMP file, so I should be able to figure it out).
quote:
Originally posted by Matrix Sorcica

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yes, IIRC I HAD reduce Varisia by the exact same amount when I swapped it for Aglarond... and that annoyed me. I'm over it now.

Good
Would you have to reduce it if it shouldn't replace Aglarond, but just be "south of Waterdeep?
Yes, that's what I said above. For this - since this is just a quick one-off because ITS FUN (and that IS the primary reason why I do maps in the first place), I'm not concerned, but the other was suppose to be a real project for people to run with, and so, I wanted to keep ALL maps size correctly, even when they got mashed together in some places. I had decided - when I was still working on it - that I was going to go back in and change it and make it full size, which would have meant moving just about everything else... which may have contributed to me just dropping the whole thing. My constant striving for perfection is usually what contributes to me abandoning projects.

If I were to go back into that project ("never say never"), I 'might' use this for a basis for what I do there, but I wouldn't need to worry about the sizing problems because Cormyr isn't there in the Misbegotten Realms, its to the west of the Sword Coast. I think the only thing I'd be running into to the east is the Taan region, and that's mostly just 'Wastes'.

The problem lies with the Old Empires, which would have to shift south, and I've already moved Unther to a completely weird place (it fits thematically and culturally, but its well outside Faerūn proper, near the Fallen kingdoms in Zakhara). That means messing with Mulhorand again, and also the Lands of Intrigue, which went where Unther used to be (but still below Chessenta... its weird).
Matrix Sorcica Posted - 19 Feb 2018 : 20:46:51
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yes, IIRC I HAD reduce Varisia by the exact same amount when I swapped it for Aglarond... and that annoyed me. I'm over it now.

Good
Would you have to reduce it if it shouldn't replace Aglarond, but just be "south of Waterdeep?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for my adjustments around Waterdeep, I thought I posted a WIP of my MR setting with detail of that area.

You did. I have that, from years ago and from your recent posting
I thought it was something else you had in mind this time around, since focus is on RotR (and Egg of the Phoenix is less relevant).

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Old WIP of my MR setting (The resolution is bad on purpose - the file is HUGE).


I've been wanting a high resolution version of that map for years.....
I once asked you for the NE portion of that map, (ca from Korvosa and up, and including the silver Marches) since at that time it fit my campaign world perfectly. It still does, except for Nentir Vale being close to Neverwinter is even better. But, if possible, I'm very much interested still
Markustay Posted - 19 Feb 2018 : 19:50:12
quote:
Originally posted by Matrix Sorcica

Fine by reducing size. Agree on that benefitting the AP. And it disturbs FR geography less, which might be a helpful in the future...
Again, thank you.

Edit: very curious how your adjustments to FR around daggerford/waterdeep without varisia would look.

Edit edit: Iirc, varisia didn't need such a reduction in size?

Yes, IIRC I HAD reduce Varisia by the exact same amount when I swapped it for Aglarond... and that annoyed me. I'm over it now.

As for my adjustments around Waterdeep, I thought I posted a WIP of my MR setting with detail of that area. I WILL be doing a 'clean' (99% canon) version of the entirety of Faerūn, which is my main project, if thats what you mean. I say only 99% because I do have a couple of differences from Mike Schley's maps ('improvements', I think), like keeping traces of the 2 4e gorges, etc.

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

If you want to use Cheliax, why not refluff Zhentil Keep? Bane and PF!Asmodeus have similar portfolios, and Cheliax is pretty much how a Lawful Evil realm should be run. Instead of devil worship, you could have it more militaristic given that Bane's home plane is Acheron. Straight up importing Cheliax into the Realms runs into difficulty as the religious view of Asmodeus in Pathfinder (valued and respected member of the pantheon) is opposed to the D&D view of Asmodeus (the Lord Below of the Nine Hells of Baator)...and the Realms already has bad experiences with fiendish kingdoms anyway.

How'd you place Geb, though? In PF, Geb is a necromancer's wet dream and worship of Urgathoa is pretty much the state religion. In the Realms, it would be the primary seat of Velsharoon's - and before him, Myrkul's - worship, and still a necromancer's wet dream.
I fit all of the Paizo setting (including some of their stuff that went 'off the map', like Iobaria, which overlays Narfel beautifully) into my [i]Misbegotten Realms. Rather than a straight land-swap, i went for a 'blended' mode with all of it. Some places got pasted-in whole cloth (like GH where Anchorome is), but in the central campaign area I have mostly FR (its all based in the Realms/Toril), Golarion, and a good chunk of Mystara mashed together (another example was that I took Sembia and blended it with Druma, another would be Impiltur and Karameikos, etc.).

I'm not sure how I fit Geb in. I don't think I would have skipped anything, in fear of not being able to use a future Paizo AP, but I can't recall at all what my final solution there was.

Old WIP of my MR setting (The resolution is bad on purpose - the file is HUGE). One of the big things I did was swap Impiltur for Turmish (and then moved Turmish down below it, closer to Chult). The idea was to make a 'better Realms' that made more sense, culturally. Calimshan is over in the Golden Waters region, etc.
LordofBones Posted - 19 Feb 2018 : 02:39:21
If you want to use Cheliax, why not refluff Zhentil Keep? Bane and PF!Asmodeus have similar portfolios, and Cheliax is pretty much how a Lawful Evil realm should be run. Instead of devil worship, you could have it more militaristic given that Bane's home plane is Acheron. Straight up importing Cheliax into the Realms runs into difficulty as the religious view of Asmodeus in Pathfinder (valued and respected member of the pantheon) is opposed to the D&D view of Asmodeus (the Lord Below of the Nine Hells of Baator)...and the Realms already has bad experiences with fiendish kingdoms anyway.

How'd you place Geb, though? In PF, Geb is a necromancer's wet dream and worship of Urgathoa is pretty much the state religion. In the Realms, it would be the primary seat of Velsharoon's - and before him, Myrkul's - worship, and still a necromancer's wet dream.
The Masked Mage Posted - 19 Feb 2018 : 00:47:24
Ignorant of what these Rune Lords are, but does it remind anyone else of the old Sega game Shining Force where Darksol was trying to free the Dark Dragon from Runefaust with the Rune Knights.

I don't remember if they ever had "Rune Lords" but i remember that the Rune Knights were Centaurs in armor :)
Matrix Sorcica Posted - 18 Feb 2018 : 23:41:38
Fine by reducing size. Agree on that benefitting the AP. And it disturbs FR geography less, which might be a helpful in the future...
Again, thank you.

Edit: very curious how your adjustments to FR around daggerford/waterdeep without varisia would look.

Edit edit: Iirc, varisia didn't need such a reduction in size?
Markustay Posted - 18 Feb 2018 : 23:14:21
No, this would be a total side-thing, since it's a very specific thing we are trying to do here. The Nentir Material is owned by Hasbro, so it won't be a problem putting that up anywhere, especially on the DMsGuld, where I hope it will go with ZeromaruX's help. The Elsir Vale stuff falls into the same category - WotC owns it, so no problem there (even though I'm completely converting that to fit existing geography, rather than placing where it belongs, down in the Shar).

Mixing IP's has to remain 'just for fun' type projects. And right now, I need a diversion, because I havn't been having fun with my current project. It looks pretty straight forward, and can easily be used in conjunction with my the Nentir Map.

I also have another one I really want to get back to so bad. Its all WotC stuff, sort of... some of it is from the period when Dragon Magazine was owned by Paizo, so its just sitting in limbo, and I want to rescue it. Not sure if I can get away with putting that on the DMsGuild, though, so that's why its been shelved, for now. Its a shame, because it shoe-horns perfectly with the Chult stuff they're doing. Ah well... so many maps, so little time.

EDIT:
Oh, and no matter what, I once-again have to reduce the scale to 2/3, otherwise Varisia stretches all the way to the Cormyr border and things just get weird. So those colored-line increments on the map scale would be 10 miles each, rather than the 15 miles the canon makes them out to be. I think reducing travel times would only help the AP anyhow, since its all over a very large region.

I forgot just how 'dark' parts of that AP got. I still get upset when I think about the nymph.
Matrix Sorcica Posted - 18 Feb 2018 : 21:17:29
Your misbegotten map inspired me a lot, but I was thinking about replacing the high moor with the Cinderlands and thus not go the Thay near the sword coast way. But undecided, as I want to use some Cheliax inspired nation as well, both for the Asmadai in Neverwinter and the Iron Circle in Nentir. So undecided if I would go straight misbegotten
Guess I wanted to wait and see how your nentir map (great you will be looking at it soon) turned out and if you maybe one day would revisit your misbegotten map.

Oh, and I have all your misbegotten maps from Deviant and I've read all your musings, thoughts and considerations on your realms - on this site and others. Feel like a stalker...

Please go ahead and make what you would do (Cool to include Harranshire) if your objective was using your nentir map, allowing for RotR (with or without Varisia), not really being concerned about canon and aiming for max utility/usability.

My own feeble attempts have been to place Varisia and a little more Golarion in various places further and further south of Daggerford. I've ended up with something that is ok for reference but is just a cut and paste into one of your western heartlands maps.
I've found that it works fine with Baldur's Gate south of Korvosa, though.

Not at my pc, so can't dig it up now, I think. Let me know if you could find it useful.
Markustay Posted - 18 Feb 2018 : 20:36:21
Hmmm, interesting. Are you using my Misbegotten Realms maps? Because on them, the 'Sword coast' actually became the the 'right coast' of the Easting Reach (and the Dragon Reach, since I sliced-out Impiltur, Damara, and Vaasa right off the map and moved them to my new version of the Sword coast to the far west - The Trackless Coast). I really wish I had time to revisit those maps - they were a labor of love. I will be getting back to the Nentir & Elsir Vale conversion VERY soon -I just have one persnickity project I am trying to finish by the end of the month.

In my MR setting, I put Varisia far south, taking the place of Aglarond (since I merged the sword Coast into the UE). I also wanted to use the stuff from the Egg of Phoenix modules, but I have now rethought all of that. Recently, I was planning on re-using that old AP down in the Utter East just to help flesh stuff out - thematically it's a good fit there. However, I am back to thinking about 'usability', which has become my primary concern (because I am tired of doing maps of places no one will ever use). This means I may decide to port the EoP AP into the north as well.

As an aside, I have already adapted the Night Below stuff onto my Main set of maps (because I hope to make it canon someday) - it was an excellent fit right next to the upper-right corner of the High Moor (when I scaled the map, it was tiny compared to the FR ones... they always are). That was another reason for my line of questioning - I could have had you going right past there in the RotR AP (more adventuring opportunity - even something they could 'come back to' later if it interested the PCs enough). If you look at my 5e campaign map closely, you can actually see what I did there - look to the right of Highstar Lake - that little bit of marsh there is the New Mire on the Haranshire map.

I love sandboxes, but I also like to know ahead of time whats in each part of the sandbox (based on material stolen from just about everywhere), just in case the Pcs decide to wander off in a direction we didn't plan on. That happened to me once; I was 16, running a game for a bunch of college kids, and they tortured me by constantly going AWAY rom the stuff I had worked on ahead of time. They wanted me to improvise, and were enjoying making me squirm (so I guess it was a successful game, since they were all having fun, eh?) But that early experience tainted the way I do things now - I HAVE TO KNOW about stuff nobody might ever encounter, see, hear about, or deal with. I purposely litter everything I do with bits and pieces of sites and adventures from all other sources, so I at least have some inkling of what someone might find there.

Anyway, back to YOU and YOUR GAME. So your Varisia sort of takes the place of that coast between Daggerford (Shining Vale) and Baldur's Gate? I'll have to check that out.

EDIT:
I just took a look, and my copy of the Varisia map is almost exactly scaled to Mike Schley's map of The North - serendipitous, no? I only have to sale the varisia map to 96%.
LordofBones Posted - 18 Feb 2018 : 11:10:57
You could always tie it with Velsharoon's ascension; here he could have he studied Sin magic during his travels around Faerun and used the principles of that discipline in preparation of his ascension. He may have deliberately stirred up something in the Thassilonian ruins, and can't really be fussed to deal with it as he's too busy with his other plans. It's canon that he fought a Halruuan wizard in an aerial spell-battle in 827 DR; given the timeline, he's precisely the sort of archmage that would stir something up for his plans.

Hell, maybe he did so on Larloch's instructions as part of a deal with the ancient lich, in return for ancient magics that would help him on his quest.

You don't necessarily need to have him be there in person, but the PCs could stumble on his writings and a few of his discarded notes detailing some ruin or other, including the information he'd unearthed about Karzoug.

Matrix Sorcica Posted - 18 Feb 2018 : 09:40:11
Thank you all, a lot of good ideas here.

@markustay - my current campaign, which is not RotR and now no longer will include the return of Shade, is based in Neverwinter and will eventually have a lot of activity in the Silver Marches. The next campaign will be RotR (with the return of Shade). It will probably be a long time before we get there, but I like to think ahead (TPKs...) and to foreshadow. It is planned to take place south of Daggerford, for reasons I'll explain further below. This may change, depending on your ideas.

I am not too concerned about canon, but like to make my changes fit in the Realms anyway.
So my timeline is a mix of FR history, with a bit of other stuff as well. My timeline is very much Grey box North (Orcs are still in dwarf strongholds, a looming threat) and the Silver Marches have not been founded yet. The players will play a major part in this.
At the same time, the Spellplague (well, something like it, see below) happened 100 years (or more) ago, Neverwinter got destroyed and is in the 4e setting version. So you could say I'm cherry picking from the FR timeline. A nice thing about this is that I know what officially happens next and that allows me to let the party play an active role in the unfolding of major realms events.

My campaign world is FR (north + sword coast) with the Nentir Vale and elements from Golarion. That's why it fits perfectly that some world shattering disaster happened a hundred or so years ago, all the three settings have this as a premise.

I too had placed Varisia south of Daggerford, partly because it's such a cool setting, partly because I want to run RotR (and because I find the FR map between Daggerford and Baldur's Gate pretty dull). So imagine my joy when I found your Misbegotten Realms! Now you know why I've been asking you about it plenty of times.
My Nentir Vale is higher north than Misbegotten, so joyous was the day you started to incorporate Nentir in the Neverwinter area. That you (some day) will fit the Elsir Vale in as well actually makes my setting more or less "complete".

I'm using your Nentir in the Realms map. I intend to place Varisia south of Daggerford, but has never shown the players a map showing this, so can be changed depending on what this thread brings. The campaign setting has never had adventures further south than Daggerford (except Red Hand of Doom, which I will retroactively move to the north).

So there's lots of opportunities to play with the geography, but I don't want to swap Golarion cities for FR ones. That is, I want to keep Magnimar, Sandpoint (and Korvosa), so no "pure" conversion.

Hope this helps, and I'm very grateful for your help and time. That goes for all of you!

Edited to clarify that placing Sandpoint and other locations in the sword coast area is not a problem. However, there's the possibility of Varisia south of Daggerford as well. Excited as to what you come up with.
Markustay Posted - 18 Feb 2018 : 07:54:16
In my Misbegotten Realms, a Thay tie-in would be perfect, since my Thay is one the Sword coast (which also happens to be the east side of the Easting Reach). But I do not know what maps Matrix Sorcica is using, which is why I am posting now...

Where is you group at right now, Matrix? You said, "The Sword Coast", but that's a pretty huge area. I found the perfect placement for moth magnimar and Sandpoint (and the Sandpoint environs), but I may have gone a bit too far south (its near Candlekeep - I need some islands off the coast there to explain Maginmar's layout). On the other hand, if you are doing a full-blown conversion, then you could just use Waterdeep for Magnimar, and Daggerford for Sandpoint (although thats a LOT more work - since you aren't fussy about canon, ading a few new settlements really doesn't upset anything).

I thought it would be pretty straight forward, but he stuff revolving around Turtleback Ferry is a bit of a problem (an ancient dam), which is why I am asking where the party's 'start point' would be, because it may be better to move the settlements further north (I can use Orlumbor for the islands off the coast... I can even go further north, but then we are encroaching heavily on Daggerford and Waterdeep, and it starts to become weird).

Mountains are no problem, but without campaign specifics, and how far you want to go in the way of conversions and/or homebrew, I'm not sure how 'spread out' you would want stuff to be. I still think a connection to the "Great Ones of the Inner Sea" is perfect - their descendants are cyclopskin! Thats mentioned (canon) in the Pirates of the Fallen stars book, but I think there are two other mentions about the 'lost giant kingdom' that got obliterated there (likely Giantcraft, and at least one other). The description of Xin-Shalast even lends itself to all of this - the other Runelord cities were all destroyed, but Xin-Shalast was out of the way enough for it to still be intact. that implies it was some distance away fro the 'core empire'. Which is why I think somewhere on the edge of the Anauroch is optimal. Once I know more about the campaign, I can figure out which is the better mountain range (is it set north of Daggerford, or south of it?) Once I have a direction, i can place everything from the AP perfectly.

You see, I had wanted to run this in FR myself a few years back, but never got a chance to do it. This is why I am familiar with all of it, and I think it feels very 'Realmsian' (return of ancient empires/BBG's long-buried in primeval ruins).
LordofBones Posted - 18 Feb 2018 : 05:51:42
Rune Magic/Sin Magic as practiced by the runelords also draws a bit from Thay, considering the hyperspecialization thing they had going for them. Each runelord had a major artifact weapon tied to his school of magic; the lord of necromancy had a scythe, for instance.

Also, all their schools of magic were kind of like a blend of a focused specialist with 3.5e prohibited schools, and were based on the seven deadly sins (i.e. wrath = evocation, prohibited abjuration and conjuration; gluttony = necromancy, prohibited abjuration, enchantment, etc).

Also, the runelords (at least, the last ones) were human. Like Thay's zulkirs, I guess.
sleyvas Posted - 18 Feb 2018 : 04:23:45
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Just to note up front... I've never read rise of the runelords... I have it.. just haven't had time. But, if anywhere screams "runelords" just as a term in my head and "return of them".... its down in Zakhara with the ruined kingdoms and the geomancers. They were focused on glyph/rune magics. It absolutely may not fit aesthetically to what the module has, but I was just throwing it there for you.
Except the Runelords were an empire of High-Magic Cyclops.

'Rune Magic' as in giants, not Norse or Dwarves.

Thematically, it could have been a 'survivor state' on ancient Ostoria. In fact, their was one such realm where the Sea of Fallen Stars is now (there are still cyclopskin on some of the islands). One far-flung outpost may have been in the vicinity of southern Netheril, like around the northern Sunset Mountains, Greycloak Hills (which do contain mountains, but then you have to deal with Evereska¹), or even the southern Greypeak mountains (which are probably the easiest access to the Sword Coast game you have going on, buuuut... thematically doesn't fit that it was once part of the Inner Sea Cyclops realm because of the distance - which is fudgable²). However, having it in or near the Greycloak Hills puts you right in the area where the the whole Return of the Archwizards (Shade) storyline began.

In fact, in the first book, before Shade returned, there was a major encounter at some Stone Giant Caves (The Saga Caves). The Stone Giants were being massacred by the forces of the Phaerimm (but not the Phaerimm themselves, IIRC). This would be the perfect spot to tie the upcoming adventures (for your party) to the Rise of the Runelords. See item ¹ below - this would be where a major NPC would show up and thank them. The Ruins of Dekanter are also right near there, which could provide further tie-in between the nearby mountains and Netheril (in other words, whatever the Cyclopsi were doing in the area, the Netherese were also later interested in - probably Chardalyn).


¹Although Evereska presents a bit of a problem if there is a 'Big bad' in the area they aren't responded this to, you can 'use the problem to fix the problem' in this case. The event that transpired in the 1st RotAW novel has already happened - the Phaerimms are becoming a problem. By having the Rise of the Runelords coincide with all of that, you have an excellent canon reason why both Evereska, and the other 'forces of Good', are not paying attention to what is going on with Karzoug. In fact, they would consider him a minor threat compared with a full-blown incursion of Phaerimm. So you should probably throw at least one Phaerimm (or Phaerimm minions if your PCs aren't high enough) at them during the RotRL AP (maybe even have Laeral or some-such show up for a cameo and thank them for their add - a perfect lead-in for the next thing you plan to run - book 2 of the RotAW series is when the Karstone gets involved and Shade comes back).

²Its possible to say that when the "Great Ones of the Inner Sea" (as the elves refer to them in their ancient histories) were destroyed (by a massive Tearfall which created the SoFS), the Runelords - archmages of the realm - were able to save themselves and fled to the region around the SW corner of Anauroch (where they may have had an enclave/outpost for 'research'). From there, they rebuilt what they could.



Ah, Giant Cyclops Runelords... in that case my next thoughts go to the Citadel of the Raven and Ironfang Keep, but honestly that would feel forced in my book. The only area I can think of really known for having Cyclops is down in the Shaar. A culture of them down in the south could work I guess. Just to note, Giantcraft even has a statement about Cyclops and Cyclopskin that would make me hesitant to tie them to Ostoria. Also, since 4e ties cyclops to Fomorians and the Feywild, it might be worth making the runelords from the feywild (maybe cyclops that turned against the fomorians or somesuch for their own independence).

From Giantcraft
Not even the giants know what to make of Not even the giants know what to make of unfortunates have tried to claim the legacy of unfortunates have tried to claim the legacy of believe the one-eyed brutes stem from another of Othea#146;s dalliances.
Scots Dragon Posted - 18 Feb 2018 : 00:22:01
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Elminster + The Seven Sisters = 'The Circle of Eight'.

I don't count Khelben because he's only close to Laeral. Elminster knows ALL seven... inside and out.


The Circle of Eight actually consist of nine members given that the presence of Mordenkainen himself isn't counted against numbering. It's an organisation that is perhaps best labelled 'Mordenkainen and...'

So Khelben would actually be kind of needed to fulfil that. And to be extra-awkward, like half of the Seven Sisters wouldn't actually qualify since they're not fully-fledged mages. Only Laeral, Alustriel, the Simbul, and Sylune would qualify to be fully fledged members. Dove, Storm, and Qilue would not.

quote:
EDIT:
I never really noticed before, but I suppose they did take the few things GH 'got right' as well, like all those countries right on top of each other, all with a different 'vibe'. FR is much more realistic in that the stuff 'next door' isn't all that much different then whats inside a country. You have to go pretty far in The Realms to notice cultural differences. The complete lack of hard borders is weird, which is probably why Paizo followed GH in that regard.


I use the lack of hard borders in the Realms mostly as an excuse to pepper the borders with various small fiefdoms and kingdoms that aren't major or well-known enough to be listed on a map.
Markustay Posted - 18 Feb 2018 : 00:10:03
Elminster + The Seven Sisters = 'The Circle of Eight'.

I don't count Khelben because he's only close to Laeral. Elminster knows ALL seven... inside and out.

EDIT:
I never really noticed before, but I suppose they did take the few things GH 'got right' as well, like all those countries right on top of each other, all with a different 'vibe'. FR is much more realistic in that the stuff 'next door' isn't all that much different then whats inside a country. You have to go pretty far in The Realms to notice cultural differences. The complete lack of hard borders is weird, which is probably why Paizo followed GH in that regard.

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