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 the problem with drizzt

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swifty Posted - 30 Jan 2013 : 19:32:42
Having spent the best part of 6 years 'in the keep' I've noticed a certain disdain for drizzt and ras in general.whilst I'm not his biggest fan a new Salvatore novel is always a welcome addition.I just wondered whether some of the criticism he gets is down to the sheer popularity.after all I myself and no doubt plenty of people here have lambasted the buying public in making multi millionaires out of people like lady gaga and rihanna whilst are favorite cult figure goes unnoticed.anyway it would just be nice to have a bit of constructive feedback from you guys.
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Dorphyll Posted - 10 Feb 2013 : 18:36:41
Thanks!
swifty Posted - 10 Feb 2013 : 17:35:17
welcome to the keep dorphyll
Dorphyll Posted - 10 Feb 2013 : 03:42:45
http://www.rasalvatore.com/data/pics/A2245000_FRB_Last_Threshold_HC_CH1.pdf

There ya go.^
CorellonsDevout Posted - 10 Feb 2013 : 03:40:14
In another thread, someone provided a link to the sneak peak of Last Threshold, but at the time I hadn't finished Charon's Claw yet, so I only skimmed it, though I had heard about him possibly being Lolth's chosen. If possible, could someone please give me a link to that excerpt?
Dorphyll Posted - 10 Feb 2013 : 02:02:52
Personally I have a love/dislike relationship with Drizzt as well. When he's not whining and in Hunter Mode he's one of my faves. When he repines and overly introspects(as in the first chapter of The Last Threshold[the rest of the book better not be that way]), I want Artemis to put him out of his misery and just supplant him as a whole(w/ Guen as Entreri's companion of course )

But the rest of this story could very well be interesting considering the Artemis/Drizzt reunion with Bregan D'Aerthe, Errtu and Druzil's return, and the fascinating development at Drizzt discovering he may be one of Lloth's Chosen.
Dorphyll Posted - 10 Feb 2013 : 01:55:31
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Hi again, all. I just tried to tease more out of Ed about Bob's future books, and he said revelations really should come from Bob, not him, but that some readers are going to be shocked at the end of THE LAST THRESHOLD (due out in March), and that those interested in Bruenor (hi, BEAST!) will read things that will really interest them in the books after that.
He reiterated that Bob is an old and good friend who praised him today in a way that brought him close to tears - - and that Bob is one of the best action writers Ed knows, but those who dismiss him as "just" an action writer should "read one of the recent or forthcoming Drizzt books with an open mind, and they'll find complex, growing characters interacting in ways that grow out of existing Realmslore and really 'fit' the Realms, not to mention enrich it." Ed added: "Bob has made me really care about his characters, and I get and read each new book as it comes out, to find out what happens next to those characters. I'm devouring THE COMPANIONS right now, and am LOVING it. Yes, I know it's not published yet, but there should be SOME perks for being the creator of the Realms, darn it!"
Ed's enthusiasm is infectious, so I'll be reading Bob's forthcoming books the moment they're published (no, I won't try to nudge Ed into letting me peek at THE COMPANIONS, because that would be unethical and Ed wouldn't yield, anyway).
He did add that Bob's plots have gotten increasingly complex as the years and books have passed, and what's coming in THE COMPANIONS is something Bob planned years ago (because Bob discussed it with him years ago), not something that just occurred to Bob.
Oh, Ed's good at hinting/teasing me right back.
love to all,
THO



Intriguing read.
CorellonsDevout Posted - 09 Feb 2013 : 03:32:10
The fact that THO is posting in this thread is awesome, but oh, such a tease! I guess I should pre-order The Last Threshold.
BEAST Posted - 08 Feb 2013 : 21:19:24
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus

Regarding drizzt's angst, its another bugbear of mine. Through out the novels, when it comes to his feelings, drizzt is always in two minds or conflicted or unsure or unhappy etc. Its called LIFE! I sometimes want to grab him by the pointy ears and shake some common sense into him.
Drizzt is always miserable!
There, I said it.

I hear you, Arcanus.

But I think there have been periods of semi-joy in his life. He's kinda forgotten himself and allowed his Companions to bring moments of that to him, here and there.

And then he turns back to his usual dark self, all over again.

When I first read "The Icewind Dale Trilogy", as a teenager, I could see a little of that in Drizzt. But my youthful optimism and idealism colored my reading so as to focus more on his friendship with the rest of the Companions. Couple that with his triumphant return to Mithral Hall at the end of The Halfling's Gem, and I really thought his angst was behind him.

Silly me. I hadn't continued reading the rest of the series.

When I did pick up the series again, I did so knowing full well the bad rap that Drizzt had for being insufferably sad and depressed all the time, and as a fan, I was defensive about it, and stood ready to explain all the criticisms away.

Well, I couldn't, for a long time. Drizzt just read like a sourpuss to me.

I remember reading some of the blurbs about Drizzt in the lorebooks, and how it felt like I was being hit over the head about his continual sadness and such. The book Once Around the Realms was the last straw, as it had a nearly silent Drizzt adrift on a raft in a storm at sea, who still said barely a peep even after being rescued. There were no Companions for comic relief or to put things in perspective. There was just Drizzt's sadness, front and center. Ugh!

So I continued my championing of King Bruenor, instead. He wasn't perfect, no, but he at least he was mostly happy!

A few years back, I remember some people here at the 'Keep alleging that Drizzt was too perfect and had so perfect a life that the idea of him still wallowing around in all this sadness just rang hollow and untrue, as a cheap narrative element by a lazy writer. Of course, as a RAS fan, that triggered some defensiveness in me.

So I started re-reading the books with a mind specifically towards Drizzt's psychological reactions to the various events in his life. I deliberately tried to interpret Drizzt's reactions in such a way that I could find some continuity and consistency from book to book, and also in such a way as to give some credibility to the fact that he is still carrying around all this sadness. I never quite finished that complete read-through, but I definitely read enough to convince myself that there was sufficient material there, and there were enough dramatic events in Drizzt's life, to justify his continued sadness and emotional isolationism. That personal project sorta stalled out, with that determination.

What really got this going for me again was noticing how many fans questioned Bob's choice to make Drizzt mean and bitter after the loss of the Companions, instead of having Drizzt continue to consistently espouse his familiar, noble ideals and principles. They felt hurt by the change in this quasi-paladin, and they were getting mad at Bob.

I felt defensive of Bob, and defensive of Drizzt, at the same time. Surely, there had to be at least some sort of explanation.

Drizzt is broken. He's never been really, truly fixed. Sure, he's had friends, and they've tried--oh, how they've tried!

But he's still broken, and I'm convinced that it's because he's not ready to be fixed. He won't let anybody do it.

We can rant and rave all we want: "Why doesn't he just get over it, already?!"

But RW people move along at their own paces.

And fictional characters move along only as quickly as their writers want them to.
Markustay Posted - 08 Feb 2013 : 19:08:30
Actually, I could picture me dropping those coins for THO to pick-up... but I'm a lecherous old man.
BEAST Posted - 08 Feb 2013 : 18:58:51
MT, your summary of your RAS-reading habits sounded very similar to mine, actually--except you left something out:

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I always buy RAS's books.

Then I spit and snarl and poke holes in them like crazy.

[EDIT: Then I masochistically try to rationalize and explain away any seeming inconsistencies with retcon and desperate pleas to exceptional situations. ]

[EDIT: Then I beg Bob for help! ]

Then I buy the next one.....


quote:
And here I thought THO was going to make a 'crack' joke. You know, like "if you want to see some amazing realms-crack, you should check out Mirt the next time he has to bend over and pick something up."

Can't you just see THO casting a few shiny gold coins onto the cobblestones ahead of the ol' Moneylender, and then seductively purring to him, "Oh...Mirrrt...", as she indicates to the ground with her batting eyes?

And then if that didn't work, can't you hear the swish of leather against leather as she busts out a bullwhip and flicks it to really get his attention?

Come to think of it, that kind of "crack" probably comes to her mind, even more than anyone's derriere!
swifty Posted - 08 Feb 2013 : 18:42:49
That reference to bruenor better not mean he's coming back.if so I'll never read another drizzt book ever again.
Markustay Posted - 08 Feb 2013 : 18:37:53
I always buy RAS's books.

Then I spit and snarl and poke holes in them like crazy.

Then I buy the next one.....

The LAST THING any author should want is 'indifference'. I guess that technically makes me a 'Drizzt fan'... weird, I know.

And here I thought THO was going to make a 'crack' joke. You know, like "if you want to see some amazing realms-crack, you should check out Mirt the next time he has to bend over and pick something up."
Kris the Grey Posted - 08 Feb 2013 : 18:36:51
@THO - A pleasure as always to see your posts. I trust all is well with you? ;) While I'm the first person to admit I know next to nothing about Ed and Bob's behind the scenes relationship, I'd gotten the impression over the years that they were chums. I'm quite glad to see that impression was accurate. One of my favorite things about 'shared worlds' is the camaraderie they build among the authors that operate in them (think Howard and Lovecraft and the other lads of the Weird Tales era). The single best thing about last year's Candlekeep seminar was the genuine affection we fans could see among the writers and game designers on the (ever growing) panel. It had the feel of a Fellowship of the Ring high school reunion, Lol. What's more, you could tell that 'old school' Realms authors like Ed, Troy, Eric, and Richard (just to name a few) were openly supportive of the efforts of newer authors like Erik and the James brothers (to name a few). The Realms really has created a family in many ways.

@Beast - The praise was genuine, so no worries about your hat, simply buy a bigger one if needed. Lol. As to GenCon, I'd never attended before last year (despite seeing ad after ad in all those old Dragon magazines since the early 1980's), but having done so I can't say I plan to miss another unless I have to. It really was that much fun (and the Candlekeep seminar was one of the highlights of the event, I'm sure you would have agreed it was worth it to attend just that). I've been to my share of conventions on the east coast and I know exactly what you mean, you see all there is to see in a mad dash within a day or two and you are left trying to fill the remaining down time until it is over. This one is different. Maybe because it's focus is on GAMING (with RPGs in the lead) instead of gaming, and movies, and anime, and art, and blah, blah, blah where the gaming part gets watered down overmuch. All I know is that there was always something I wanted to see or to do (usually two such things at the same damn time) and after four days I was left wanting another three at least. If you are even vaguely interested, do yourself a favor and check it out.

(Plus, I'll be running another of my 'Play Yourself in the Realms' games there this year and admittedly I'd enjoy having you sitting at the table.)


The Hooded One Posted - 08 Feb 2013 : 06:26:54
Hi again, all. I just tried to tease more out of Ed about Bob's future books, and he said revelations really should come from Bob, not him, but that some readers are going to be shocked at the end of THE LAST THRESHOLD (due out in March), and that those interested in Bruenor (hi, BEAST!) will read things that will really interest them in the books after that.
He reiterated that Bob is an old and good friend who praised him today in a way that brought him close to tears - - and that Bob is one of the best action writers Ed knows, but those who dismiss him as "just" an action writer should "read one of the recent or forthcoming Drizzt books with an open mind, and they'll find complex, growing characters interacting in ways that grow out of existing Realmslore and really 'fit' the Realms, not to mention enrich it." Ed added: "Bob has made me really care about his characters, and I get and read each new book as it comes out, to find out what happens next to those characters. I'm devouring THE COMPANIONS right now, and am LOVING it. Yes, I know it's not published yet, but there should be SOME perks for being the creator of the Realms, darn it!"
Ed's enthusiasm is infectious, so I'll be reading Bob's forthcoming books the moment they're published (no, I won't try to nudge Ed into letting me peek at THE COMPANIONS, because that would be unethical and Ed wouldn't yield, anyway).
He did add that Bob's plots have gotten increasingly complex as the years and books have passed, and what's coming in THE COMPANIONS is something Bob planned years ago (because Bob discussed it with him years ago), not something that just occurred to Bob.
Oh, Ed's good at hinting/teasing me right back.
love to all,
THO
daarkknight Posted - 08 Feb 2013 : 04:29:48
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Ed is on a Realmslore high right now.
love, THO
So when can we get our hands on some that 'Realms-Crack'?



I concur. Where can we get some of that sweet, sweet stuff?
Markustay Posted - 07 Feb 2013 : 23:25:27
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Ed is on a Realmslore high right now.
love, THO
So when can we get our hands on some that 'Realms-Crack'?
CorellonsDevout Posted - 07 Feb 2013 : 18:39:14
I should probably subscribe to this topic, but I don't really have anything more to contribute. I'm excited for the Companions, but I'll admit the last 3 novels have not been my favorite, and they were hard to get through. I'll stick along for the ride though. It's Drizzt, after all!
sleyvas Posted - 07 Feb 2013 : 17:43:47
Personally, I read the first two stories "the crystal shard" and "halfling's gem" years ago when they first came out. I liked the crystal shard being one of the first realms novels, but then I started reading other trilogies and found I liked those authors so much more. Meanwhile, online everywhere I turned were Driz'zt fans, and the short stories I would read in the "realms of" anthologies were ok, but I didn't get all the hype. I did give him a lot of credit for his work on the bloodstone lands, and then he wrote up the series surrounding Cadderly. I read those Cadderly novels, but I felt they were kind of Cheesy (I also felt he was writing it for the bloodstone lands and suddenly had to change settings). It was just a few years back that I actually picked up a R.A.S novel (forget the title, but it was the one where Wulfgar came back), and I was intrigued with his growth as an author. That led me to the one with Artemis and the Witch-King, which I also enjoyed mostly because I'm a big fan of Damara/Vaasa. So, I then read through the prequels with Zaknafein down in the underdark, and I will say those were really good. I'd like to read through all the intervening and subsequent books, but quite frankly I'm loaded down with work, other novels, tv shows that I record, playing my MMO's, chatting on candlekeep, etc....
BEAST Posted - 07 Feb 2013 : 16:49:42
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

(BTW, Bob and Ed are old and good friends, and often chat privately about all sorts of things, future Realms projects among them.)
Ed is on a Realmslore high right now.

That's just awesome to hear. This world was embraced because Ed loved what he was doing, and fans could pick up on that, and so could the business people. Somewhere along the way, the business people have had a tendency to impose themselves a bit too much. But now it sounds like we're getting back to the way it was: the way it's supposed to be. Let the Creator call the shots!

I really have never gotten my panties all up in a bunch over most of the changes over the years (except that durn darkvision thang) as much as a lot of the more dedicated fans. I've enjoyed following along with Bob's story, even if I didn't like what he had to do with certain characters because of the changes. I've trusted that I was in good hands, just the same. I've felt that way about most of the Realms.

But it is better to know that the writers are having fun with this, right now. That they believe in what they're doing, and the business types are stepping back to let them do it, is liberating for y'all and invigorating for us.

quote:
love
THO

And of course, that's the best part of all!
The Hooded One Posted - 07 Feb 2013 : 05:19:07
Ah, I see. Fair enough.
BTW, Ed was gleeful tonight, and told me: "Bob's told me what he's thinking of doing in his next two or three Realms books" [[note: those would all be after THE COMPANIONS]] "and it's just GREAT! Brilliant stuff that I can't wait to read!"
(BTW, Bob and Ed are old and good friends, and often chat privately about all sorts of things, future Realms projects among them.)
Ed is on a Realmslore high right now.
love,
THO
BEAST Posted - 06 Feb 2013 : 23:06:11
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Steven, Ed tells me that Bob thinks THE COMPANIONS is his best book yet. And is going to shake a lot of people.

Yeah, I heard that from Bob, too. He was asking me what I thought Drizzt's biggest mistake ever was, and when I faltered for fear of providing the "wrong" answer, he said to just hold on, because I should totally love it.

So I'm guessing it's gonna confront those emotional foibles of Drizzt I was talking about, above.

quote:
(But "mindless infatuation with the cult of Ed"? Where are these cultists, and when can we get to meet them? Me, I see more Ed-bashing than cult boosters, though it's not nearly as bad here at the Keep as elsewhere.)

When I first started out here, about 5 years back, people would answer my questions very tersely. When I asked how they knew that, they would just snidely say "Because Ed said so." (Remember, that's when I coined the term "BESSo"? )

So when I asked how Ed determined such stuff, I got even snider remarks, as if who was I to dare ask such a thing?

Fortunately, Ed stepped in and explained that he hadn't actually "determined" anything at all--he had just reported what the design team had decided.

So the sycophants snidely said "See? There!"

I asked Ed to reconsider, in light of newer lore, and he said my POV made sense, all things considered.

So those "cultists" were so blindly following what Ed was saying, when even Ed wasn't as completely committed to what he was saying as they were!

I am reminded of the Toy Story vending machine toys calling out, "The Claw chooses!"

People seem to qualify what they say here more nowadays than they did then. It's cool.
Dennis Posted - 06 Feb 2013 : 13:09:27

Agreed, Ayrik. As long as RAS keeps his pet stuck in a little corner of the Realms, not starting any world-shaking events, I'd be fine with it. It's okay to hate something; but if you can ignore it, then do so. The amount of energy you spend hating is usually just wasted energy.
Ayrik Posted - 06 Feb 2013 : 10:20:55
What's to dislike, really? If you can't abide Drizzt then just ignore him, he's only one hero doing things in one little corner of the Realms. In fact, Drizzt is hardly spectacular at all when compared against the powergaming multi-prestigeclassed mutant crossbred circus freaks most people love to play in their own 3E/4E gaming. He's even kinda wimpy compared against most of the interesting hero (and villain) characters seen in non-RAS FR novels.
JohnLynch Posted - 06 Feb 2013 : 09:57:24
For me Drizzt is a special snowflake. He embodies everything that drow aren't. Now that's alright. Superman is a special snowflake. Lone survivor of a destroyed planet, but actually grew up as a normal person only to discover his abilities one day. And that's okay. If it was limited to Drizzt it wouldn't be a problem.

However Drizzt clones are more common then actual Drow. In the books I'm led to believe there is at least one city of "redeemed drow." I have to ask: what do redeemed drow bring to the story? What about their addition makes the world more interesting. I haven't read the stories in question so I don't really know the answer. But from a gaming standpoint I just don't find it interesting. I find it boring.

However there are other types of Drizzt clones. As a player of LFR I got tired of playing side by side Drizzt. When people say "I'm going to make a Drow" they actually mean "I'm going to make a Drizzt." They ignored all the flavour of Drow and instead make Drizzt.

FINALLY I found the quality of the writing to be not the best IMO. I was able to devour the books in less than 12 hours. The quality of the writing just wasn't that good. I don't ever have a burning desire to go back and read a Drizzt book. But that's just my opinion and I mean no disrespect to those who enjoy the books or the author. I did, after all, read several of the Drizzt books. So they are readable at the very least ;)

That said. I think I've made this post once before online and probably only when I was asked for my opinion. Much like this thread.

As for how it impacts my games in the Forgotten Realms: It doesn't. While my player whose an uber-Forgotten Realms fan is also an uber-Drizzt fan. He's never played a drow, let alone a Drizzt clone. I'm rolling back the clock on the Forgotten Realms to 1357 DR so I can still have drow be "the mysterious big bad guy" and not be a PC race. I won't be directly contradicting the canon of the Drizzt novels as they're actually the only novels I'm aware of. Instead I'll simply avoid "touching the novels" and set my game elsewhere. Should the game continue long enough for Elistraee to die and create the "redeemed drow" I'm actually running a god-lite campaign so that story will be tweaked considerably to fit into the framework I'm establishing. In so doing I'll be able to focus on the motives and actions of the drow and use that to create further adventures for my game :)

So Drizzt doesn't hurt my Forgotten Realms at all. I'm quite happy to have him exist (off screen so as not to overshadow the PCs) and incorporate the novels into my campaigns (with my own twist or two when appropriate).

quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus

it was about the other companions who shared his adventures. Most of these characters are now gone and the stories about this drow are much the worse for it.

It's funny. I stopped reading Drizzt novels at one point (I don't remember which novel) and I don't intend to read any more of them. But I was sad to hear of Cattie-Brie and Wulfgar's deaths. I figured they'd die to old age, not go out with a bang. And although I don't intend to read any Drizzt novels, I hope Bob brings them back for 5th edition somehow. Maybe I don't dislike Drizzt as much as I think.
The Hooded One Posted - 06 Feb 2013 : 06:37:30
Steven, Ed tells me that Bob thinks THE COMPANIONS is his best book yet. And is going to shake a lot of people.
(But "mindless infatuation with the cult of Ed"? Where are these cultists, and when can we get to meet them? Me, I see more Ed-bashing than cult boosters, though it's not nearly as bad here at the Keep as elsewhere.)
[[P.S. Bob sent Ed the beginning of THE COMPANIONS to read months ago, and Ed loved it.]]
love,
THO
BEAST Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 20:30:15
quote:
Originally posted by Kris the Grey

@Beast - Insightful analysis as always (I particularly enjoyed your observations about Gromph). Of the many and varied personages and points of view here at the Keep, you and your insights are among those I value the most. Keep on keeping on.

Aw, shucks!

What'd you have to go and do that for? I just bought a new hat online, and my head barely fits into it, as it is!

quote:
I don't suppose you are popping up to GenCon this August?

I hadn't planned on it, no. I'm new to the convention biz. I've only attended one, here in Houston last August right before GenCon, and it was just a small weekend one.

I think I might need to work my way up to one of those big cons. I need to feel like I'm gonna get my money's worth out of it if I'm gonna take that much time off. Just going as a gawker is hard to justify, right now.
Kris the Grey Posted - 05 Feb 2013 : 18:12:18
@Beast - Insightful analysis as always (I particularly enjoyed your observations about Gromph). Of the many and varied personages and points of view here at the Keep, you and your insights are among those I value the most. Keep on keeping on.

I don't suppose you are popping up to GenCon this August?
Arcanus Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 22:57:52
I don't dislike drizzt, it's just that I'm apathetic towards him now. Very much take him or leave him.
Tasker Daze Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 22:25:00
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

But some of the fanboys of course come in and bash every other character who they deem inferior.

That is why you see a slightly annoyed tone when Drizzt is brought up.

But that ain't right, yo! That's the problem with Drizzt fanbois--not a problem with Drizzt.

I don't like how a lot of people slavishly, robotically parroted their interpretations of stuff they had read in some of THO's posts earlier when I first joined Candlekeep, and how they basically tried to shoo me away for even asking questions, and then they got upset when I persisted, asking how they or Ed ever arrived at those particular answers, in light of other lore. There was a mindless infatuation with the cult of Ed that didn't make any sense, as well as undeserved disrespect for me as a Drizzt-loving newb.

That's alright. In the end, Ed had my back!

(I wonder if he even remembers any of that, now?)

All of that was reason to dislike some of Ed's fans. It never even once made me consider thinking less of Ed, himself, or of his stories.

I've only read a few of his stories because I'm such a Drizzt nerd and I spend most of my fiction time compiling details about Bob's stories. There just isn't enough time to be an El-nerd, too, or whatever.



but there are a lot more drizzit fans. you can only read so many posts about how cool he is beofre you start to get sick of it. and its worse when its a character that has been in 20 books and has his face plastered on everything.
Arcanus Posted - 04 Feb 2013 : 22:23:25
Very eloquent beast and i understand completely where you are coming from. Regarding drizzt's angst, its another bugbear of mine. Through out the novels, when it comes to his feelings, drizzt is always in two minds or conflicted or unsure or unhappy etc. Its called LIFE! I sometimes want to grab him by the pointy ears and shake some common sense into him.
Drizzt is always miserable!
There, I said it.

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