| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Brace Cormaeril |
Posted - 15 Jul 2010 : 20:44:14
Below is an excerpt from the Wild Elves entry on FR Wiki.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Green_elves#cite_note-FRPG-p15-16-7
quote:
When the eladrin first arrived on Abeir-Toril, the green elves, the lythari, and the avariels were the explorers. The green elves were by far the most successful at establishing themselves and exploring new areas, creating several territories that eventually each became the nations of Eiellûr, Keltormir, Syòpiir, Thearnytaar, and Ilythiir.[7] All of these nations were consumed by the Crown Wars between around -12000 DR and -9000 DR, during which time the "dark elves" of Ilythiir turned with a vengeance on their brethren and destroyed most of the green elven nations. After the disaster, the green elves never again created nations or cities.[2]
After the fall of their ancient realms, the green elves entered a period they call the "Wandering," moving from land to land over a period of many generations.[2] It was during this time that the green elves gradually diverged from their eladrin roots, becoming the first true elves. Forced to live as fugitives, slaves, or vagabonds the green elves eventually withdrew into the deepest forests and mountains of Faerûn. By the time of Jhamdaath's rise c. -5800 DR the green elves had largely settled into their current homelands and intermittent contacts with it and other human empires did little to encourage the green elves to move elsewhere.[2]
The majority of wild elves did not participate in the Retreat to Evermeet, instead using isolation as a survival technique, but forsaking many of their traditional elven skills of high magic. Over the centuries following the Wandering, the green elves would diverge further from their ancestors, becoming distinct not only from the eladrin but from other elves. Losing touch with their ancient traditions and regressing more into primitivism the green elves became clan-based and then tribe-based, eventually becoming the wild elves as they are known today.[2]
The elves of Faerun is a very dense topic; and not my area of expertise to say the least.
Is there anything in the passage above that seems to violate previously established canon? |
| 11 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Quale |
Posted - 18 Jul 2010 : 14:01:11
Again afaik, it was long known before GhotR that the green elves were the first, then the avariel (nearly exterminated by dragons) and lythari (tough Demihumans of the Realms says that Evermeet's references of lythari worshipping Seelie Court should be disregarded). |
| Faraer |
Posted - 16 Jul 2010 : 20:49:28
Too many of those articles are attempts at personal syntheses of the letter of multiple Realms and D&D sources, with 'latest thing publisher said = correct' followed blindly, and little apparent interest in the character and animating spirit of the stuff.
Summarizing what's published more transparently would be far more helpful for anyone wanting to use shifting/contradictory Realmslore any other way: let people know what said what and they can appraise and use it intelligently and critically. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 16 Jul 2010 : 11:44:52
quote:
Originally posted by dracons
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
to me it sounded like someone modified it to make more since of the 4e rules.
which isn't a good idea if someone wasn't a realms fan to begin with.
A good chunk of it has been modifyed for 4th edition since it came out. I mean, look at the class descriptions in it. Bulk of it is 4th, little foot notes on how it once was.
I wish they kept it like this:
Class/Race/whatever
3e
....
4e
....
and everyone would be happy. |
| Dracons |
Posted - 16 Jul 2010 : 05:32:16
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
to me it sounded like someone modified it to make more since of the 4e rules.
which isn't a good idea if someone wasn't a realms fan to begin with.
A good chunk of it has been modifyed for 4th edition since it came out. I mean, look at the class descriptions in it. Bulk of it is 4th, little foot notes on how it once was. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 16 Jul 2010 : 04:33:58
to me it sounded like someone modified it to make more since of the 4e rules.
which isn't a good idea if someone wasn't a realms fan to begin with.
|
| Faraer |
Posted - 16 Jul 2010 : 03:54:37
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It appears to be very 'tainted' with someone's perceptions of events . . .
This seems to be a phase fictional-universe wikis go through -- Wookieepedia likewise used to be full of undifferentiated speculation and interpretation. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 15 Jul 2010 : 22:57:07
Edit: The Fey Creator Race had left Toril very early - check the -34000 entry. It would appear that the Fey were either from Faerie, or had created it whole-cloth, like a pocket-dimension, to get away from the other creator races. Unlike the others, it is still questionable weather the Le'Shay were of Torillian origin.
Cormanthyr specifically states that the Avariels were there first?
Evermeet merely alludes to it - Sharlario runs into them fairly early on (which still doesn't preclude the fact that they may have arrived 5 minutes after the Eladrin).
Interesting term there, BTW, I like it. Describes most of the casinos I've been in. 
I don't gamble myself - I despise greed and avarice. |
| Brace Cormaeril |
Posted - 15 Jul 2010 : 22:57:06
I've tied myself into a bit of a brain pretzel, can some sages here help me figure this out...
Pg. 7 of GHotR contains a passage entitled -31,000DR; the Creator Races.
In the passage, we learn of the flight of Eartharran Neirdre, during the rysar of Zoar Moonflower.
An excerpt appears below:
quote:
[Grand History of the Realms[/i] pg. 7
Eartharran’s notes suggest that he was hunting for a lost city whose contents might resolve some of these questions. In one entry, he notes that most of the fey had already retreated to the otherworldly realm of Faerie, and that the sarrukh were reputedly slumbering in the depths of the Mhair Jungles (a rumor to which I give little credence).
So Eartharran is traveling around, sometime between 652DR and 1321DR, and has commented that "most fey" have returned to Faerie, and that the sarrukh slumber in Mhair... what the hell is goin on here? |
| Dracons |
Posted - 15 Jul 2010 : 22:46:15
Iquar'Tel'Quessir were one of the creator races. |
| Brace Cormaeril |
Posted - 15 Jul 2010 : 21:51:37
I'll take your AFAIK comments for what they're worth, then, wasichu.
I'll keep this in mind as well;
quote:
Cormanthyr, Empire of the Elves
One of the reasons early elven history is so difficult to determine is due to extraneous historical references humans attributed to Myth Drannor or Cormanthor long before the city's very existence in one or both names; while the elves are quietly proud that Myth Drannor looms large in human historians' thoughts, it is more amusing to watch them contort history to fit their theories than to correct them and pro-vide the proper time and place references.
The elves' origins on Toril are so cloaked in the mists of time and the secrecy of all the elves that it is unlikely the truth shall ever be laid bare. All that the races of Toril know is that the elves, along with the dwarves, rose to prominence after the fall of the dragon-ruled and giant-dominated realms of the Time of Dragons. In this dim time millennia before any human empire rose under the sun, the elves carved empires of which songs are still sung today in Myth Drannor.
Although not particularly satisfying...
Anyone familiar with another source for "Iquar'Tel'Quessir", besides the tome referenced above?
We also have evidence that the Avariel, in some form or another, predate the arrival (In Cormanthyr...) of Prince Durothil from Tintageer in -25400DR...
Intersting stuff. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 15 Jul 2010 : 21:07:52
Right off the bat, the first sentence is homebrew, AFAIK. Canon dictates that the Eladrin/High Elves arrived after Green Elves, but there is absolutely no source that says Avariels and Lythari arrived with the Green/Sylvan Elves, that I know of. The first mention of Avariels comes some time after the arrival of the Eladrin, and doesn't really give us any clue as to when they arrived (although the novel they appear in, Evermeet, does lean towards them having 'already been there', but doesn't say it for a fact).
Lythari are not mentioned at all until thousands of years after the Elven diaspora, so that isn't even conjecture - that's PURE homebrew. Not saying it isn't possible, but that whole thing about 'scouts' is entirely made-up.
It appears to be very 'tainted' with someone's perceptions of events - I would argue that the Dark Elves were just as much victims as the Green Elves (they did NOT start the Crown Wars). Dark Elves, are indeed Green (I prefer the term 'Sylvan' - less confusing) Elves, though - I have said that all along, and the GHotR made it canon.
HOWEVER, I am FAR from being anything of an FR 'Elf Expert' - I hate the buggers - so hopefully someone else can shed some light on that. |
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