| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| farinal |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 22:07:25
Hi everyone!
I have read the War of the Spider Queen with a great love. It's probably my favorite series in the Realms. I both have the Empyrean Odyssey & The Lady Pentient trilogies with me right now and I'll start the Lady Pentient as soon as I finish The Last Mythal trilogy. (It's been like two years since I read any Realms novels so I'm catching up at once with a lot of books right now. lol)
I dislike the 4E and the new lore and still play my games in years 60s or 70s with 3.5E. So my question is if I read The Lady Pentient (sadly I already know some major spoilers about the books) will I be dissapointed? I really like all drow deities and their schemes and fights with each other. I was really excited about this trilogy since I finished the WOTSQ but now I feel like everything I knew and love will get changed in my mind if I read the books and I wouldn't be able to remember previous status-quo of the Dark Seldarine. So what do you think?
I hope I made myself clear. Thanks. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Irennan |
Posted - 04 Mar 2012 : 00:20:10
Edition neutral. |
| farinal |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 22:58:13
Is the new Menzo book going to be edition free like the Ed Greenwood's FR book? Or a 4E sourcebook? |
| Irennan |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 18:56:44
Yes, many things have changed and infos need to be updated. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 18:11:46
-Awesome. A book about one of the most overdone cities in the setting, possibly/probably containing information about one of the most detailed races in the setting. 
-That's probably looking at it myopically, though. The city of Menzoberranzan probably does need some updating, since the changes mentioned since 4e was rolled out- Quenthel's ascension, Lolth being the sole Drow deity, the Spellplague possibly having changed things in the Underdark- probably would have fairly big consequences on the city itself. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 08:18:45
I have the impression that the book will not only detail Menzoberranzan, but will have infos about the drow in general (so, possibly, also their other cities) or so I have interpreted what I've read. Then, it should be a good book for the ones who enjoy the topic.
Anyway, some designers seem to be very happy with it, so I guess that the book may actually be good. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 05:21:40
-Another Menzoberranzan book? 
-I wonder which city has been overdone more, that or Waterdeep? |
| Irennan |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 03:03:22
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
There can always be hope, however the Masked Lady lasted what maybe two months to a year at most. There might be some kind of revival of both brother and sister, however there are not clear signs of how they will appear, if at all.
Well, it looks like the Menzoberranzan sourcebook will revive at least Eilistraee, and probably Vhaeraun as well.
http://www.eilistraee.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2096
I'm glad of that, though I won't scream victory till I see it. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 02:58:51
There can always be hope, however the Masked Lady lasted what maybe two months to a year at most. There might be some kind of revival of both brother and sister, however there are not clear signs of how they will appear, if at all. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 01:46:08
quote:
-I don't know for sure since I'm not WotC or Lisa Smedman, but I would agree that the character was probably 'created' as a handy way to get rid of both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun with one fell swoop. The entire metagame point of the trilogy was to get rid of the Dark Seldarine, and leave only Lolth- no other plots in the books were really picked up in any 4e D&D books or articles in any real meaningful way. That does indeed suck, and is pretty pointless.
Agreed, though we may hopefully see more about the two deities soon enough, for the last of them may have not been said yet.
EDIT (possible spoiler about the novels)
Regarding the ''redeemed'' drow (who make the main subplot to be continued), the destructive and barbaric way they dealt with them leaves few room for developing further their concept.
The ones who were redeemed while in the Underdark are probably dead cause of the lack of their skills that allowed them to survive in that environment (or killed by drows if they were changed while being in a drow city). The ones who were on the surface were already a minority. Add to it the deaths caused by the Spellplague cataclysm, drow killing them on sight (especially the ones that could've tried to remain true to their goddess and keep spreading her message) and what remains is just a handful of Eilistraee followers, scattered and without guidance  . However I believe (and hope to be glad of it) that something is being done about them. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 01:41:27
-She didn't get much characterization because she was only around for two novels, and wasn't a main character in them- I mean, she was, but only in principle, with the books mostly being about her servants, and their conflicts with Lolth/Kiaransalee's servants. If she wasn't killed, and was still around in the 4e books, I'm sure more would have been written about her. The amount of fanboyism that is found regarding the Drow, and regarding Eilistraee would almost guarantee that they'd sell.
-I don't know for sure since I'm not WotC or Lisa Smedman, but I would agree that the character was probably 'created' as a handy way to get rid of both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun with one fell swoop. The entire metagame point of the trilogy was to get rid of the Dark Seldarine, and leave only Lolth- no other plots in the books were really picked up in any 4e D&D books or articles in any real meaningful way. That does indeed suck, and is pretty pointless. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 01:13:30
That makes the Masked Lady to look even worse. The fact that they didn't even bother to characterize this goddess leads me to think that she was just a mean to open the way to get rid of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, which was the only purpose of the novels, and not to correct their flaws.
As I widely stated, I still think that the two separated deities make interesting concepts and that they are too different and contrasting to be mashed in a single entity who gives the *entire* feeling of both, while being coherent with herself. Because it would require a loss of not negligible parts of the original deities.
The lack of depth in the development of the outcomes of the events in the novels makes this loss even worse if possible (not judging the novels -since i haven't read them-, just the lack of materials to detail the new things. A signal that makes me think that they just wanted to wipe out the two deities and what they represent for no reason that makes sense in regards of the setting). |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 Mar 2012 : 00:40:00
-At the end of the day, not enough was written on the subject to really give the amalgamated deity any kind of real characterization one way or the other. Eilistraee's personality/traits seemed to take prominence, the shining beacon, with Vhaeraun's shadows creeping on the peripherals- aptly, I guess.
-Even my own write-up of the Masked Lady, admittedly, was more of a combination of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, toning back Vhaeraun's evil than anything else. There wasn't too much to go on, though, in terms of new material outside of the new structure and how her church operated. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 21:54:02
quote:
She could give whatever feeling you want her to, giving it's you doing the interpreting!
Well, not exactly. If she acts in a dark and grim way, forgetting about her kind, lighthearted and friendly side, then it is not Eilistraee. It feels like a big part of what characterizes Eilistraee and how she intends to bring the drow in the 'good fold' is missing.
However, if the Masked Lady basically is just Eilistraee with a veil of mystery and a little more 'badassery' then I could be fine with that; even though, this way, Vhaeraun would be lost. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 21:47:35
-She could give whatever feeling you want her to, giving it's you doing the interpreting!
-Realistically, the only real difference between 'regular' Eilistraee and The Masked Lady was the mashing of her followers with those of Vhaeraun, and she seemed a bit more mysterious than before. There just wasn't enough time given to make The Masked Lady feel any different as a deity. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 04:05:36
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
And while I don't know exactly how the Masked Lady acts (though i can figure it), I think that she doesn't have the feeling that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun had separately. Their concepts seem to be too different for a merging and, as I said in my first post, for me the 'family' struggle adds some flavor to the whole thing.
However, it is just a question of preferences here. The thing that matters most is that without them the drows are kind of boring and bland to me.
Again, just my opinion.
-She didn't really do much, as she was around for two whole novels, most of which dealt with her followers or her enemies. I'd disagree, though, that she didn't have the feeling of Eilistraee or Vhaeraun. To me, she felt more like the kind of stereotypical scene in movies where the protagonist gets pushed past his/her limits, and basically throws away all the rules they formerly adhered to- usually accompanied by scenes of hair being cut, new clothing being worn, and other kinds of things designed to convey 'badassery'.
-The Masked Lady felt, to me, like Eilistraee realized that Lolth was setting in motion a chain of events that called for all of the stops to be pulled. Her normal MO would not be enough, and in order to keep up with the threat, she had to become 'darker' (while she did actually become literally darker, I mean it in that 'badassery' way). Conversely, from Vhaeraun's point of view, he realized that his normal MO was more petulant childish and reactive than proactive, and in order to keep up with the threat that Lolth was, he needed to 'settle down' and 'center' himself.
I'm not sure. That is positive indeed. Still, I like Eilistraee for being an idealist.
She feels like a loving mother for the drow (as she was originally intended), but also a kind of 'freedom fighter', a rebel who fights against her own mother, giving even herself for it, to grant the drow the freedom to choose their life, rather than being shackled and suffocated by Lolth's pointless dogma and struggle over power just for the sake of it. And, in doing so, she tries to forgo the violent and hard approach (limiting it to the necessity), luring the drow by showing them (through the reveling activities she encourages) that a different, joyful kind of life is possible. Something that they were (unjustly) denied in their descent and thus forgot, free from the overwhelming and oppressing countless schemes, betrayals (etc...) and consuming hatred forced upon them by their society which, at the end, extinguishes the spark of life in them. And this is the reason of the part of her dogma regarding dance, music, joy, helping the ones in need of it... .
Can the Masked Lady give that feeling? I like a lot that concept, and while I can understand that it, sadly, won't (probably) go very far in the fight (although I'd enjoy to see it actually succeeding), I would prefer that she becomes 'more badass' (but not 'darker', without forgoing the part of her MO I pointed above, which is one of her aspects that make her so interesting and unique to me) by cooperating for a time with Vhaeraun, who would be changed in the process as well by 'centering' himself and becoming more proactive, as you pointed out.
I like when the characters evolve, not when they're smashed together in order to overcome their flaws. Eilistraee, for example, could be led to understand that, when the situation demands it, some dirty fighting is required, but also that it should be left for when it is strictly necessary. And this wouldn't require her to become 'darker' (which I don't see fitting her at all). Just, as you said, more 'badass', but still true to herself. As I see it, Eilistraee's and Vhaeraun's MO and even substantial parts of their ultimate goals are too different to be fused together and feel harmonized without cutting relevant parts of their flavor. Unless this union was just temporary (some form of agreement between them, as you proposed).
In fact, I'm sure a temporary cooperation could've been worked. Heck, they should even have started to work on a solution for the discrimination problems in their churches by teaming for this match vs Lolth (and feel 'whole', more coherent with their concepts, after it). There was the potential of making something really interesting out of Lolth's silence. It was wasted.
This, of course, is only what I think. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 03:41:22
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
And while I don't know exactly how the Masked Lady acts (though i can figure it), I think that she doesn't have the feeling that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun had separately. Their concepts seem to be too different for a merging and, as I said in my first post, for me the 'family' struggle adds some flavor to the whole thing.
However, it is just a question of preferences here. The thing that matters most is that without them the drows are kind of boring and bland to me.
Again, just my opinion.
-She didn't really do much, as she was around for two whole novels, most of which dealt with her followers or her enemies. I'd disagree, though, that she didn't have the feeling of Eilistraee or Vhaeraun. To me, she felt more like the kind of stereotypical scene in movies where the protagonist gets pushed past his/her limits, and basically throws away all the rules they formerly adhered to- usually accompanied by scenes of hair being cut, new clothing being worn, and other kinds of things designed to convey 'badassery'.
-The Masked Lady felt, to me, like Eilistraee realized that Lolth was setting in motion a chain of events that called for all of the stops to be pulled. Her normal MO would not be enough, and in order to keep up with the threat, she had to become 'darker' (while she did actually become literally darker, I mean it in that 'badassery' way). Conversely, from Vhaeraun's point of view, he realized that his normal MO was more petulant childish and reactive than proactive, and in order to keep up with the threat that Lolth was, he needed to 'settle down' and 'center' himself. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 03:11:16
quote:
I don't necessarily dislike that her clergy is more or less an absolutely matriarchy (it is what it is), but in light of what she stands for, I've always felt it somewhat stupid. Her goal was, more or less, to bring Drow- most of whom would have been former followers of Lolth- back into the fold of good. From the point of view of a male Drow who happened to leave Lolthite Drow society behind, coming across yet another strong matriarchal society would be akin to jumping from a fire into a vat of liquid nitrogen. Presenting a face that, upon first glance and a brief cursory inspection, would seemingly push 50% of possible Drow 'escapees' away never seemed a smart idea to me. Vhaeraun, the same thing. Forming a society in which females instead were marginalized and relegated to a 'lesser' status isn't the most effective way to gain former adherents among former Lolthites, 50% of whom might be female.
That's what I meant.
quote:
plot/subplot that dealt with Eilistraee (or Vhaeraun) acknowledging the issue, deeming it not the most effective way to garner followers, and doing something about it would have been nice
And it would've been something that they would have likely done, something fitting to their characters, unlike (for what I've understood) some of their behaviors in the novels.
And while I don't know exactly how the Masked Lady acts (though i can figure it), I think that she doesn't have the feeling that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun had separately. Their concepts seem to be too different for a merging and, as I said in my first post, for me the 'family' struggle adds some flavor to the whole thing.
However, it is just a question of preferences here. The thing that matters most is that without them the drows are kind of boring and bland to me.
Again, just my opinion. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 03:04:52
-I don't necessarily dislike that her clergy is more or less an absolutely matriarchy (it is what it is), but in light of what she stands for, I've always felt it somewhat stupid. Her goal was, more or less, to bring Drow- most of whom would have been former followers of Lolth- back into the fold of good. From the point of view of a male Drow who happened to leave Lolthite Drow society behind, coming across yet another strong matriarchal society would be akin to jumping from a fire into a vat of liquid nitrogen. Presenting a face that, upon first glance and a brief cursory inspection, would seemingly push 50% of possible Drow 'escapees' away never seemed a smart idea to me. Vhaeraun, the same thing. Forming a society in which females instead were marginalized and relegated to a 'lesser' status isn't the most effective way to gain former adherents among former Lolthites, 50% of whom might be female.
-A plot/subplot that dealt with Eilistraee (or Vhaeraun) acknowledging the issue, deeming it not the most effective way to garner followers, and doing something about it would have been nice, at some point. I still like the Masked Lady more than the combined individual two, but... |
| Irennan |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 02:47:34
quote:
The concept of Eilistraee, as envisioned by whomever can say one thing, but in execution- canon books- there's some degree of separation
That's the problem. The degrees of separation brought by the execution of the concpet were in a sense (she being fine with anti-male bias) that defeats a not negligible portion of Eilistraee's intended role, actually twisting her.
However, I agree that this is an issue that should've been adressed. I have no particular problem with her clergy being female only (I guess it's related to Eilistraee being akin to a 'mother goddess' for the drow), but I dislike the changedance thing and the fact that her church is supposed to be a matriarchy. They could've had her openly acknowledging the inequality between the two sexes still present in her church (a thing that defeats her own goals) and working (especially considering the situation of the drow in the time when the trilogy was set)to remove it, which would've been the thing that she would do if they had her behaving like what she is intended to be (I guess that the chengedance was supposed to be a start of this, even though it looks like it had the reverse effect). All of that without smashing her and Vhaeraun together (and without having, among the other things, the latter acting like a fool, which just doesn't fit him).
In this way she would've been true to her original concept which, I firmly believe, has much potential. Too bad that, afaik, the whole trilogy was written cause WotC decided to just kill the drow pantheon and not to further develop them, working around incongruences like this. Such a waste IMO. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 02:20:38
-Even before the events of the Lady Penitent trilogy, the fact that her church is a matriarchy, and the transformation that males must undergo to become female to become ordained in her church still continue painting her church in a negative light, vis-a-vis equal-gender relations. I can buy the concept that many Eilistraee-worshiping Drow women were once Lolth-worshiping, so sometimes the ingrained habits of absolute matriarchy, and the inferiority of males is hard to overcome (The War of the Spider Queen series also touched on this). The concept of Eilistraee, as envisioned by whomever can say one thing, but in execution- canon books- there's some degree of separation (not by much, mind you- it's not like she's depicted in canon as some sort of genocidal maniac or anything).
-Speaking in generalities, we don't know what Eilistraee really thinks. We've never seen anything that says that she believes X, Y, and Z on the topic. The fact that she allows it to take place, without mentions of wanting reform, or more tolerance, or a wholesale scrapping of the status quo doesn't reflect well, though. Like I said earlier, if something is practice in St. Peter's Cathedral, you know that the practice is wholly approved by the Catholic church; if something is practice in Canterbury Cathedral, you know the practice is wholly approved by the Anglican church. In the real world, rational people know that a higher power isn't communicating his/her/it's pleasure or displeasure regarding practices and dogma and so on. In the Forgotten Realms, they can. In her main temple, Eilistraee apparently hasn't seen fit to contact her clerics and communicate with them that many of the practices that go on there don't foster the 'equal-rights for all Drow' environment that she preaches. Given that Demihuman Deities alludes to the fact that her church is a matriarchy, this behavior extends back, at the very least, to the in-game date that that product was released to (1,36something DR). Presumably, they go back further as well. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 18:49:50
quote:
-As made very clear in the trilogy in question, sexism- maybe too strong a word; anti-male bias- to varying degrees is found in The Promenade, the very heart of Eilistraee's orthodoxy. When Eilistraee and Vhaeraun formed the Dark Maiden, and their churches combined, that tension grew tenfold, though a lot of that had to do with the alignments and outlooks of everyone involved, and not just their sexes. Looking in sources outside of just this book, the very large percentage of females in her clergy, and the infamous ritual in which males must be transformed into females in order to be ordained also point to a church that caters moreso to one sex than the other.
I didn't read the books, so thanks for pointing it out.
As I said, i agree with you on this point. Her clergy (and the changedance) felt a bit hypocritical and I could even somehow understand it, for the majority of her priestesses grew in a Lolthite environment and such rooted ideas might be hard to overcome.
The thing that troubles me is Eilistraee not doing anything about it. It is very hard to me to believe that she wasn't actually concerned about her priestesses' anti-male bias since, according to this post by THO about Ed's concept of Eilistraee, her creator meant her to assume the role of mother of the WHOLE drow race.
quote:
I was asked to create a “good drow deity” for DROW OF THE UNDERDARK, pertaining to surface-dwelling drow, and I did, deciding to depict her as nurturing mother goddess worshipped through dancing nude under the moonlight (echoing British faery traditions, but seeking to make her seem not capricious, as the faeries are depicted, but non-warlike, non-violent except when protecting “her” mortals). Through her priestesses, Eilistraee aids her faithful in hunting and swordcraft as a way of helping them to survive and flourish in a hostile surface world. She’s not HERSELF depicted as any sort of a huntress; she’s the force that brings a stag into the reach of hungry drow, not the slayer-by-arrows of drow foes.
She can personally be an avenger or protectress, yes (an aspect strengthened in 3rd Edition, not by me), fearsomely wielding the sword she dances with, but owes more to the bard than the huntress.
So you’ve turned to a classical goddess depicted as the huntress, a peerless archer whose shafts never miss (or almost never miss, depending on the tale). This puzzles me; I certainly wouldn’t equate a benevolent nurturing (and fertility, though thanks to the TSR Code of Ethics you have to read between the lines to see this in DROW OF THE UNDERDARK and SILVERFALL, where I certainly wasn’t very subtle about it) goddess with the Queen of the Hunt, the virgin Greek goddess of chastity.
Let’s look more closely at Artemis. In her Roman derivation (Diana), it’s death to a mortal man to see her nude - - but he sees her bathing; she isn’t in that tradition depicted as normally racing about the forests bareskinned. (Some writers do depict all of the classical deities so, which probably has much to do with many of the real-life mortal cities of worshippers having few nudity taboos.) She’s the moon goddess, also goddess of childbirth, wild life, domestic animals, and infants (children just after they are born), as well as being goddess of flocks, and of the chase.
So there are a lot of possible portfolios here that someone TRYING to draw a parallel could catch onto, to try to make their case, but none of them really fit: I created Eilistraee as worshipped under the moon because that’s when she appears, NOT a moon goddess; her only connection to the moon was because drow (who had to stay in the dark to keep any power, in that edition of the D&D game) on the surface could see the moon but Underdark drow could not. Eilistraee has nothing to do with domestic animals or wild life, and her mothering is not of childbirth or the young, but of the WHOLE race (to sustain and strengthen them in their return to the surface). Eilistraee has nothing to do with flocks or the chase, is not virginal, and has nothing to do with chastity."
('whole' highlighted by me).
Again, I didn't read the books but, according to what you told me, the trilogy depicts her in the opposite way. A deity is what he/she stands for so, going by what I quoted, Eilistraee would never stay still with such biased ideas (males are 'less than worthy') so spread among her church, and letting her doing so is having her acting out of character. Actually, her depicted behavior defeats a big part of the very role she chose for herself (heck, she even underwent willing exile for it. It's not like she'd dump her chosen role for no reason).
quote:
One could say that, "Yes, Eilistraee truly doesn't feel that way" and yada, yada, yada, but at the end of the day, what was written is canon, and by canon, Eilistraee allowed whatever- so, clearly, she might. Metagame thinking? Perhaps. But, at the end of the day, either you have dissonance, or it is all rectified by the conclusion that she does allow it, because she doesn't feel the need to change things.
If the novels give the impression that she doesn't feel the need to change this thing, thus being fine with it, then (at least I feel so by what i know about the events of the books) her character was unjustly twisted (and -IMO of course- ruined). As I said, very different from her original purpose. In this case, as dumb as it may sound, I'd prefer to have dissonance between the novels and what Eilistraee would've done, and to have this corrected if they bring her back in the future.
EDIT: Are there any specific passages from which one can clearly understand that Eilistraee didn't care about this issue? If that is only an impression that the novels as whole give, then I think it can be smoothed. For example, we could say that she in truth worked to change her priestesses mindsets, but the clerics who were once yarthals, especially the ones brought from Lolth's Silence, underestimated the consequences of their biased attitude. To push the 'males are as worthy as you' idea would've probably driven away these clerics (afraid of loosing the privileged status they had), something that Eilistraee couldn't afford in such difficult times. So she chose to set TEMPORARY aside that matter and focus and the more urgent threats that Lolth and Vhaeraun were. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 17:12:02
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Yes, I didn't like the fact that males weren't allowed in her clergy. I think it was a mistake from her.
However, where does it say that her priestesses considered males less than worthy? I'm really surprised of reading this to be honest. For the clergy it'd be like going against what their own goddess fights for. And even so, it wouldn't be that Eilistraee's concept doesn't make sense. I'd rather say , at the cost of sounding arrogant, that whoever wrote those things about her priestesses while having the Dark Maiden doing nothing about it wasn't true to her spirit.
Anyway, I still think that such things (like males that can't be clerics) could've been corrected without merging the two deities.
-As made very clear in the trilogy in question, sexism- maybe too strong a word; anti-male bias- to varying degrees is found in The Promenade, the very heart of Eilistraee's orthodoxy. When Eilistraee and Vhaeraun formed the Dark Maiden, and their churches combined, that tension grew tenfold, though a lot of that had to do with the alignments and outlooks of everyone involved, and not just their sexes. Looking in sources outside of just this book, the very large percentage of females in her clergy, and the infamous ritual in which males must be transformed into females in order to be ordained also point to a church that caters moreso to one sex than the other.
-I've had people tell me that perhaps what we saw were only isolated incidents, but using a real world equivalent, that would be like certain theological behaviors/opinions/practices being found in the Vatican City, but not widespread among Catholic orthodoxy, or being found in Canterbury Cathedral, but not widespread among Anglican orthodoxy- it's not that it's not impossible, but fairly improbable.
-One could say that, "Yes, Eilistraee truly doesn't feel that way" and yada, yada, yada, but at the end of the day, what was written is canon, and by canon, Eilistraee allowed whatever- so, clearly, she might. Metagame thinking? Perhaps. But, at the end of the day, either you have dissonance, or it is all rectified by the conclusion that she does allow it, because she doesn't feel the need to change things. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 18:35:52
quote:
Eilistraee, for example, was about redeeming the Drow, and yet a full half of the race was marginalized and considered 'less than worthy' by her church- and yet she did nothing.
Yes, I didn't like the fact that males weren't allowed in her clergy. I think it was a mistake from her.
However, where does it say that her priestesses considered males less than worthy? I'm really surprised of reading this to be honest. For the clergy it'd be like going against what their own goddess fights for. And even so, it wouldn't be that Eilistraee's concept doesn't make sense. I'd rather say , at the cost of sounding arrogant, that whoever wrote those things about her priestesses while having the Dark Maiden doing nothing about it wasn't true to her spirit.
Anyway, I still think that such things (like males that can't be clerics) could've been corrected without merging the two deities. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 17:33:09
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Personally, I prefer Eilistraee and Vhaeraun as two separate deities. I like their concept a lot, more than the Masked Lady's, and the 'family' struggle between them and Lolth adds some flavor to the fight over the drow. The only thing I appreciate about the Masked Lady is that she unified Eilistraeeans and Vhaerunites efforts, but i would have liked to see the Dark Maiden and the Masked Lord agreeing to a truce and working together rather than merging.
I understand that it is not too smart of them to fight each other rather than Lolth, but I strongly disagree with you here. IMO they can and should be taken seriously as separate deities, especially if they manage to set aside their grudges and come to some kind of cooperation.
-I have no problem with them bickering and fighting each other, as well as Lolth. They were enemies, standing for almost two polar opposite things. On the whole, however, neither's dogma or church made much sense. Eilistraee, for example, was about redeeming the Drow, and yet a full half of the race was marginalized and considered 'less than worthy' by her church- and yet she did nothing. |
| farinal |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 13:38:48
quote:
Originally posted by skychrome
quote:
Originally posted by farinal
Hi everyone!
I have read the War of the Spider Queen with a great love. It's probably my favorite series in the Realms. I both have the Empyrean Odyssey & The Lady Pentient trilogies with me right now and I'll start the Lady Pentient as soon as I finish The Last Mythal trilogy. (It's been like two years since I read any Realms novels so I'm catching up at once with a lot of books right now. lol)
I dislike the 4E and the new lore and still play my games in years 60s or 70s with 3.5E. So my question is if I read The Lady Pentient (sadly I already know some major spoilers about the books) will I be dissapointed? I really like all drow deities and their schemes and fights with each other. I was really excited about this trilogy since I finished the WOTSQ but now I feel like everything I knew and love will get changed in my mind if I read the books and I wouldn't be able to remember previous status-quo of the Dark Seldarine. So what do you think?
I hope I made myself clear. Thanks.
Farinal, I recommend to give those books a shot. I really loved them. Maybe not quite as much as WotSQ, which is a really exceptional series, but I liked it a lot, unless you take the major spoilers you already mentioned too serious. There are some fans out there who take those spoilers regarding the gods that serious, that they even rated my amazon review on book 3 as "not helpful", because I said that I liked the book. This FR series has created negative emotions in some people like probably none before. So from a realm shaking point of view the series may suck, but from a novel point of view it is a very good read in my opinion.
Thank you for your answer. I was fearing that I'll also feel about the series as those people who disliked your comment simply because they hate the events in the books but I think this trilogy is important to read even if I won't like the outcome and since I already know some spoilers it won't be a traumatic shock for me. I can always play my games at an earlier and/or customised date and I think the writing is good since I really liked Smedman's work in WOTSQ.
Thanks everyone for answering  |
| Irennan |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 08:59:27
Personally, I prefer Eilistraee and Vhaeraun as two separate deities. I like their concept a lot, more than the Masked Lady's, and the 'family' struggle between them and Lolth adds some flavor to the fight over the drow. The only thing I appreciate about the Masked Lady is that she unified Eilistraeeans and Vhaerunites efforts, but i would have liked to see the Dark Maiden and the Masked Lord agreeing to a truce and working together rather than merging.
quote:
two deities who, going by what they represented, and how, seemed just a little bit off to take 100% fully seriously, to one deity who seemed 'whole'
I understand that it is not too smart of them to fight each other rather than Lolth, but I strongly disagree with you here. IMO they can and should be taken seriously as separate deities, especially if they manage to set aside their grudges and come to some kind of cooperation. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 07:10:50
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by skychrome
I don't know how you feel about it, but the whole Eilistraee and Vhaeraun thing never looked as clear to me as it was supposed to look like. We really won on whom and who presented him/herself as whom? 
-Eilistraee/Mask presented itself as Eilistraee/Mask, and nothing more. The Masked Lady was, by and far, the best thing to have come out of that series. And, it's funny too, because the Masked Lady didn't really add too much to either Eilistraee or Vhaeraun. But, smoosh them/their clergies together, and you go from two deities who, going by what they represented, and how, seemed just a little bit off to take 100% fully seriously, to one deity who seemed 'whole'.
Thats true i love the concept of the Masked Lady. She was finally a worthy challenger to Lolth. But it did seem pretty clear that Vhaeraun
was planning murder when he went to her home realm. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 04:52:29
quote:
Originally posted by skychrome
I don't know how you feel about it, but the whole Eilistraee and Vhaeraun thing never looked as clear to me as it was supposed to look like. We really won on whom and who presented him/herself as whom?
-Eilistraee/Mask presented itself as Eilistraee/Mask, and nothing more. The Masked Lady was, by and far, the best thing to have come out of that series. And, it's funny too, because the Masked Lady didn't really add too much to either Eilistraee or Vhaeraun. But, smoosh them/their clergies together, and you go from two deities who, going by what they represented, and how, seemed just a little bit off to take 100% fully seriously, to one deity who seemed 'whole'. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 03:48:51
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Then he shouldn't have been arrogant enough to attack Eilistraee in her home plane. I mean seriously what was he thinking?
-There's the rub: Do we really think a deity as scheming and whatever else as Vhaeraun really tried to attack Eilistraee head-on, in her own realm? I, personally, believe the hypothesis that he didn't attack her, but actually went to visit her as a means to work out merging in some manner, to present a unified front to either check Lolth's power or stop her permanently.
-In the end, it didn't exactly work out that way (yet), but...
This is my interpretation as well, and a major part of the 4e FR campaign that I'm running.
Cheers |
| skychrome |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 01:20:55
quote:
Originally posted by farinal
Hi everyone!
I have read the War of the Spider Queen with a great love. It's probably my favorite series in the Realms. I both have the Empyrean Odyssey & The Lady Pentient trilogies with me right now and I'll start the Lady Pentient as soon as I finish The Last Mythal trilogy. (It's been like two years since I read any Realms novels so I'm catching up at once with a lot of books right now. lol)
I dislike the 4E and the new lore and still play my games in years 60s or 70s with 3.5E. So my question is if I read The Lady Pentient (sadly I already know some major spoilers about the books) will I be dissapointed? I really like all drow deities and their schemes and fights with each other. I was really excited about this trilogy since I finished the WOTSQ but now I feel like everything I knew and love will get changed in my mind if I read the books and I wouldn't be able to remember previous status-quo of the Dark Seldarine. So what do you think?
I hope I made myself clear. Thanks.
Farinal, I recommend to give those books a shot. I really loved them. Maybe not quite as much as WotSQ, which is a really exceptional series, but I liked it a lot, unless you take the major spoilers you already mentioned too serious. There are some fans out there who take those spoilers regarding the gods that serious, that they even rated my amazon review on book 3 as "not helpful", because I said that I liked the book. This FR series has created negative emotions in some people like probably none before. So from a realm shaking point of view the series may suck, but from a novel point of view it is a very good read in my opinion. |
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