| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 08:41:52
In another thread it was mentioned that Sensates appear in a novel I had not read called "Tymora's Luck". I know that in Glass Prison there is a Cambion who mentions Sigil. I am currently obsessed with re-reading Planescape. I was curious of what other times Planescape type things are mentioned in Forgotten Realms novels or products?
I tried to search but could not find a list of times Planescape crosses over into the Forgotten Realms. Does such a list exist? |
| 29 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| AuldDragon |
Posted - 20 Mar 2015 : 07:54:53
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Rarified metaphorical abstractions and impossible strangeness aside, the PCs will generally need to interface with the nearly-infinite worlds of the nearly-infinite planes on far more concrete, mundane, banal, and unspectacular levels. They find themselves standing (or floating) is some "physically" tangible place. They find themselves busied by exotic new variations of the same old dirt, blood, food, ale, silver, steel, and unfriendly folks pointing sharp things at them.
2E Planescape lore does a fair job of describing these settings and the elements found within them. Even though no collection of sourcebooks can possibly provide more than a superficial treatment of near-infinity, especially not those parts of infinity which our feeble minds (or perhaps WotC's feeble minds) cannot readily comprehend.
While not always readily apparent, I think they did a pretty good job of showing that space doesn't work the same way on the planes as it does on the Prime Material Plane. Basically, on the Prime, the time it takes to get to where you want to go is strictly based on the distance. On the planes, however, it takes 3-18 days no matter how you travel. That goes a long way to show just how infinite the planes are, simply because you could choose one starting point and travel to far more places in only 3-18 days than you could possibly get to on the Prime.
Playing a whole campaign in the Planes (and the other transitional settings) really just takes a slightly different mindset than the traditional settings, but not really a mindset any more far removed than the one needed to play in the other esoteric settings like Dark Sun. And for students of Philosophy, Planescape offers additional opportunities the other settings don't. :)
Jeff |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 20 Mar 2015 : 02:40:02
Rarified metaphorical abstractions and impossible strangeness aside, the PCs will generally need to interface with the nearly-infinite worlds of the nearly-infinite planes on far more concrete, mundane, banal, and unspectacular levels. They find themselves standing (or floating) is some "physically" tangible place. They find themselves busied by exotic new variations of the same old dirt, blood, food, ale, silver, steel, and unfriendly folks pointing sharp things at them.
2E Planescape lore does a fair job of describing these settings and the elements found within them. Even though no collection of sourcebooks can possibly provide more than a superficial treatment of near-infinity, especially not those parts of infinity which our feeble minds (or perhaps WotC's feeble minds) cannot readily comprehend.
The main problem with Planescape is that it necessarily takes focus away from other places like the Realms. A campaign anchored in the Realms will always seem a little unglamourous when too much attention is given to exotic new possibilities offered elsewhere. And the nature of Planescape is such that it is a "larger" world superset which encompasses "smaller" subset worlds like the Realms within it. Planescape is at its best when used as a sort of transient campaign, no real "home base", more like an eternal tour guide always moving through the dirty little corners of infinity. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 19 Mar 2015 : 20:01:28
Yes we cannot envision a metaphorical universe but to me that should be part of planescape. Incomprehensible "geography". I think it would be too confusing for a published book, though. I think some places in the planes should be finite and comptehensible and others not. Like a planar metropolis or other site. But the spaces between to me are metaphorically and potentially infinite without the baggage of true infinity. (Like how can anything be known in an infinite space? Should not there be unlimited everything? Etc. ) true infinity does not match many concepts in planescape |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 19 Mar 2015 : 13:12:13
The easier way would be for servitor deities to have fiefs or provinces mirroring their actual divine realms in their patrons' realms. Azuth, Savras and Velsharoon each have a permanent avatar stationed in Mystra's Dweomerheart, ruling over a province analogous to their actual divine realms. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 Mar 2015 : 08:35:12
Well being human i can only envisage things in terms of physical rather than metaphysical.
So it helps me to picture the larger domain as a country and the smaller portion belonging to a lesser deity as a country. Of course this is all plonked into a seemingly infinite plane that may well move around and change its dimensions, geography, etc, so finding the home plane of dweomerheart may well be like looking for a needle in a haystack (a haystack that has changing dimensions and a needle that can move, change shape or become invisible as it desires). |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 19 Mar 2015 : 01:03:57
That's one of the things I like about Planescape though. The utter nonsense of the Outlands dimensions make it seem more 'out there'. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 19 Mar 2015 : 01:00:41
Do we think of the planes as having a literal material plane size like "as big as France"? I have often thought of the Planes dimensions being "infinite" as metaphorical. Things are as far away as the belief of the planes make them, etc. No concrete dimensions (Like you can always see the spire of Sigil from anywhere on the Outlands.... and there aren't an infinite number of Sigils just one...) Space and time that is not measurable or consistent to mortal perceptions. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 18 Mar 2015 : 12:17:15
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Dazzler dal I like your take on it. I think it' makes more sense than my existing in multiple places simultaneously (too confusing!)
It would be like how Eilistraee has a realm in multiple planes ("Demonweb Puts" Abyss and Arborea and Yagard...). She would have a portal she controls between them? Am I understanding?
In video games there are some interesting references for sure. I think in Icewind Dale 2 a tie fling mentions Sigil in the Black Raven Monastary. Also Valen Shadowbreath in NWn is from Sigiil (although his description of Sigil is pretty different from how I imagine it...)
Well Eilistraee is an extreme example since she is actually listed in Faiths and Pantheons (3e and therefore great tree cosmology) as her home plane being in Arvandar and the Demon Web Pits.
When I originally envisaged my theory of combining the cosmologies I imagined each deity having a single domain existing primarily on a single plane and having multiple exit points to other planes, however looking at more and more deities it is apparent that several deific home planes can cover more than one plane at the same time.
I don't actually consider the connections to be portals, its more of a common border between the two planes.
So using Azuth as an example. His home plane in 3e is listed as Dweomerheart which is owned by Mystra. In 2e, Mystra's home plane is listed as Elysium so I would make Dweomerheart a portion of Elysium. The size can vary according to the power of the deity that created it and how many gods reside there but I imagine it to be the size of a continent for a greater power like Mystra.
Azuth's portion of Dweomerheart is probably little bigger than France or some other country sized piece of land. It exists primarily on Dweomerheart (which is part of Elysium) but Azuth is also listed as a power of Arcadia in Faith and Avatars (2e) and so at least some portion of his domain must border on Arcadia.
I figure the border can be as large or as small as Azuth likes. It may be that if you try to leave Azuth's domain heading west then you gradually walk through an area that is more like Arcadia until finally you pass fully into Arcadia.
When you turn around and try to look at Azuth's realm I can't imagine how it would appear. Maybe you seamlessly walk from one plane to the other without realising it. Maybe it appears as a shimmering portal like area of immense size (or not depending upon the size of the border). Maybe Azuth's planar boundary is hidden and invisible. I guess its up to Azuth, its his realm.
As for the more complicated home planes like the HOuse of the Triad. I figure that home plane actually borders on multiple planes at once (one side is celestia, another is Ysgard, etc, etc) because the three gods that own the home plane are listed in F&A as having multiple realms (Tyr is Celestia and Ysgard).
For Eilistraee, she is listed as having a home plane of Arvandar and the Demonweb Pits. I think her home plane is part of both and is hidden from both after a fashion. Maybe her portion of Arvandar only appears in moonlight, maybe the border with the Demonweb Pits is only a small humanoid sized portal that is hidden on the edge of the pits and disguised cunningly.
The large home planes of House of Triad and Dweomerheart and the Demonweb Pits therefore act like bridges between planes (where they are connected with multiple planes). In fact when I try and picture them it helps to imagine them as an arch with multiple spans that border multiple planes. |
| Marc |
Posted - 18 Mar 2015 : 10:11:50
In Planescape it says there is an infinite number of planes between known planes, so I have multiple cosmologies at the same time, the absolute truth always remains a mystery.
In my FR, the Tree theory dominates in the North, Moonshaes, Rashemen, and the Wheel in Chondathan areas. 4e's is an unaccepted view introduced by the Shades, mostly Shadowfell.
In Sigil I have other theories in competition, the Wheel, something like Pathfinder's 9 alignment planes, and one based on cultures, for example the Norse 9 realms is one plane, Heliopolis is one plane and so on. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 17 Mar 2015 : 08:36:55
Dazzler dal I like your take on it. I think it' makes more sense than my existing in multiple places simultaneously (too confusing!)
It would be like how Eilistraee has a realm in multiple planes ("Demonweb Puts" Abyss and Arborea and Yagard...). She would have a portal she controls between them? Am I understanding?
In video games there are some interesting references for sure. I think in Icewind Dale 2 a tie fling mentions Sigil in the Black Raven Monastary. Also Valen Shadowbreath in NWn is from Sigiil (although his description of Sigil is pretty different from how I imagine it...) |
| Sorgrim |
Posted - 16 Mar 2015 : 23:12:53
Here's a fun little tidbit: Startear, the resident wizard of Crossroad Keep's tower in Neverwinter Night's 2, references Sigil and traveling there, etc. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 16 Mar 2015 : 19:40:22
I reconciled the two.
All the large planes we know of for the great wheel exist as stated in that cosmology.
Within those planes are domains owned by the various deities (the greater deities create large domains where lesser deities then craft subdomains).
So in a portion of whatever plane lies Furies Heart. The deities in question are in total control of the laws of that domain. Crucially, the domain can border on multiple planes at one (the subdomains owned by lesser deities can border/terminate on an entirely different plane so that you can have CE, NE, CN deities all in existence on the same plane).
So for example Heliopolis exists wherever it says so in Horus-Re's writeup in F&A. All the Mulhorandi deities live in Heliopolis with their own portion of the domain carved out (Set's Tower, Osiris' pyramid, etc). Set's portion of the domain has at least one portion of it open to the plane where he is said to reside on in his F&A writeup.
That way Great Wheel and Great Tree all exist together in harmony (and before anyone moans about the hells marching on the beastlands etc through these borders - how do you think the Blood War is raged across the plane, plus a deity has complete control in his domain so when devils start marching through he just moves the border or summons his host of minions and changes the rules so that its really cold, or really hot, or anti-evil, etc). |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 16 Mar 2015 : 18:33:14
Oops. Nevermind then.
Also I felt like the Great Tree system made it illogical to have planar travel. If the planes exist entirely because of the deities then no portions of them are outside of deific control. So you can't really travel there if an opposing deity has unlimited power there, could you? Whereas in Planescape the deities had divine realms that could be circumvented and their concerns were almost exclusively on the prime material rather than the outer planes, so adventure seemed more logically possible. I don't know if this canonical but on the planes walker website it was suggested this was because the gods got their power from prime worshipers, their portfolio senses functioned only or almost only on the prime material outside of their realm etc... In the Great Wheel system there does not seem to really be room for adventures or even novel stories (despite the fact that the Crystal Mountain trilogy is planar) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Mar 2015 : 11:05:34
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I've never thought much about the world tree outside of reading "Crystal Mountain".
The idea did not appeal to me although I know that Wizards has to change things to keep products "fresh"?
I prefer the Great Wheel. But I think that they started to want to get rid of alignments so D&D would not be stagnant and unchanging (why make a new edition if you're not going to change things?)
Actually, they changed the alignments in 4E -- the Great Tree was inflicted on the setting in 3E. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 16 Mar 2015 : 03:03:44
I've never thought much about the world tree outside of reading "Crystal Mountain".
The idea did not appeal to me although I know that Wizards has to change things to keep products "fresh"?
I prefer the Great Wheel. But I think that they started to want to get rid of alignments so D&D would not be stagnant and unchanging (why make a new edition if you're not going to change things?) |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 15 Mar 2015 : 21:27:55
That is a brilliant line, and I completely agree with it. Great Wheel for life!
Also: one happy consequence of liking Ed's writing is that your future is filled with great reading material. The man never stops.  |
| IXTenebrae |
Posted - 15 Mar 2015 : 17:30:54
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Is that a line from the book? If so, it's brilliant.
Yeah. This is my first Ed Greenwood, honestly. 5th realms book too. But I can already tell I'm going to like his writing. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 15 Mar 2015 : 16:32:21
Is that a line from the book? If so, it's brilliant. |
| IXTenebrae |
Posted - 15 Mar 2015 : 14:50:38
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
In 2e, and at least some of 3e, Faerun's cosmology WAS Planescape. That was the entire point of the setting: that characters from any world could go to the planes and see what lay beyond their particular set of stars. It was only later in 3e that WotC got the "bright" idea to give each game world its own cosmology.
I just started reading The Herald yesterday and kind of had a chuckle when I read the part where the old noble was complaining about the world changing. "I think it all began when some sages started talking of the World Tree, and were allowed to go on doing so. Madness, sheer madness. Give me the Great Wheel, and I know where I stand." |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 15 Mar 2015 : 11:11:03
In 2e, and at least some of 3e, Faerun's cosmology WAS Planescape. That was the entire point of the setting: that characters from any world could go to the planes and see what lay beyond their particular set of stars. It was only later in 3e that WotC got the "bright" idea to give each game world its own cosmology. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 15 Mar 2015 : 00:29:48
I sort of think of the FR cosmology and Planescape cosmology overlapping even if they don't technically. Perhaps "Warrior's Rest" and Limbo can both exist with Tempus residing in both? Portions of those planes could be portions of the great wheel... I don't know how to explain that idea properly. That the planes overlap and can exist in multiple ways simultaneously |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 14 Mar 2015 : 19:48:31
Finder's Bane starts in the Realms and ends up in both Sigil and a couple of other planes. It also references Spelljammer. |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 14 Mar 2015 : 17:43:03
IIRC, 2e's 'Hellgate Keep' references the events of the Planescape module 'Squaring the Circle' from the Hellbound: The Blood War box set. I don't own a copy of the FR sourcebook in question, but I'm almost positive that it's the one that references the events from the latter Planescape module.
An article in Dragon magazine during the 3.x period on the Gatetown of Ecstasy in the Outlands includes mention of a cleric of Lathander (despite the official retcon of FR out of the Great Wheel during that edition). |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 14:22:07
Finder's Bane (the prequel to Tymora's Luck) MIGHT mention something. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 14:13:23
I think it was actually in Arabel. One of the few stable terminus' of the World Serpent Inn - most of them move around.
The World Serpent Inn has been around since 1988 and has been in a tonne of adventures and supplements.
Edit: Dang. Beaten to it. |
| Thauramarth |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 14:02:08
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
An inn (i think in Marsember) that is linked to an inn called the world serpent (or something like that) which is a link to other places in the planes.
I realise thats incredibly vague but i can't remember where i read it now so i can't find it.
The World Serpent Inn manifests in Arabel (it is the centrepiece of the old 1st Edition adventure compilation OP1 - Tales of the Outer Planes). |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 12:06:56
An inn (i think in Marsember) that is linked to an inn called the world serpent (or something like that) which is a link to other places in the planes.
I realise thats incredibly vague but i can't remember where i read it now so i can't find it. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 12:02:37
For Duty and Deity and Tales from the Infinite Staircase are the major FR/Planescape crossovers. |
| Marc |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 11:13:28
In FR sources, I think Tymora's Luck is pretty much everything, it mentions that the Netherese tried to conquer a part of the Outlands.
Other than that, there's a few portals to Sigil, and the Infinite Staircase (For Duty and Deity, Volo's Guide to All Things Magical, and the Avatar novels).
And that tiefling bard from BG2 is from Sigil.
There's a lot more in PS sources, NPCs mostly, like Trobriand.
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