| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 14:23:08
Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but is there any information on the old empires of the giant races?
I mean their cities and abodes must have been huge! You would think there would be some remnants left of such an empire. Same goes for spells, magic items, etc... |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Jan 2015 : 13:47:53
quote:
Originally posted by Rymac
I would think that when a certain age category is reached, an elemental path/progression makes sense: Air, Earth, Fire, or Water. Maybe throw in Wood and Metal for the Oriental Adventures crowd?
I've combined those two into 'Alloy', which is a combination of the other four elements mixed together. In Alchemy, you need all four elements to create 'life', thus Alloy = life.
There is also 'void', which is the lack of any element. So you have four prime elements, and two psuedo-elements (not to be confused with the existing 'para' and 'quasi' elements).
The funny thing is, in a game built on the concept of 'leveling' - and with the introduction of the tier system in 4e (which I actually like) - you would think they would have evolved the game along these lines. Build very basic classes and races, and then have everything else be templates/Prestige Classes (they amount to about the same thing, mechanically). PCs would power-up by 'level', but NPCs would do so by age (for example, a 40 year old human blacksmith would be the equivalent of level 4). Instead of 10,000 rules, you have a few rules and 10,000 options. Here's hoping 5e does this, moving forward. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 15 Jan 2015 : 14:12:15
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
While reading Giantcraft, love it BTW, it said that one of the myths about giants is that they are rare which means since it's a myth, they aren't rare so it got me thinking. Why haven't giants across Faerun now, established towns, cities, or even communities?
Are they not as numerous as they once were to the point where you have small scattered communities of them that live in caves and such? I could really see Frost Giants establishing a city in the north while Fire Giants take up residence in volcanoes.
If you had a large quantity of giants form a comparable size city to a human city, how much would they decimate the nearby population of food? Just a thought.
Well they can plant crops as well as hunt larger beasts. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 Jan 2015 : 12:33:42
quote:
Originally posted by Marc
there's the hephaeston giants
I prefer giants based on mythology, Norse, Greek gigas, divs, fomorians, goliaths, nephilim, and so on. Those based on every type of environment are boring, except eldritch and death giants. Eldritch could be a type of fomorians.
Just adding, I like me some eldritch giants too. That was an interesting addition, and I'd like to see the various races taken in some other directions magically. It doesn't have to be powerful magics either.... a mirror image on a giant is pretty powerful.... a giant using enlarge person can be interesting as well.... displacement, stoneskin, etc... can all be interesting when applied to them and a party isn't expecting it. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 Jan 2015 : 12:27:42
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
While reading Giantcraft, love it BTW, it said that one of the myths about giants is that they are rare which means since it's a myth, they aren't rare so it got me thinking. Why haven't giants across Faerun now, established towns, cities, or even communities?
Are they not as numerous as they once were to the point where you have small scattered communities of them that live in caves and such? I could really see Frost Giants establishing a city in the north while Fire Giants take up residence in volcanoes.
If you had a large quantity of giants form a comparable size city to a human city, how much would they decimate the nearby population of food? Just a thought. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 14 Jan 2015 : 19:56:02
quote:
Originally posted by Marc
there's the hephaeston giants
Ah, hephaeston giants are from Mystara. That's the campaign setting I'm least familiar with. |
| Marc |
Posted - 14 Jan 2015 : 19:50:22
there's the hephaeston giants
I prefer giants based on mythology, Norse, Greek gigas, divs, fomorians, goliaths, nephilim, and so on. Those based on every type of environment are boring, except eldritch and death giants. Eldritch could be a type of fomorians. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 14 Jan 2015 : 19:39:51
Wood giants exist - metal giants don't, you'd have to invent them. |
| Rymac |
Posted - 14 Jan 2015 : 18:03:12
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
MY giants start off like hill giants, because they are child-like. Like dragons they have several 'age categories', and they increase in intelligence with each category (right on up to genius). Back in the days of the 'giant kingdoms' one could find all shapes and size giants living together, but things have changed since they've become rarer. Basically, I took the Glorantha (RQ) giants and pasted the D&D mechanics on top of them. Thus, a 'Titan' would just be a very ancient giant (no template).
That it such brilliance. It also makes the most sense. Giants should certainly be more than just large humanoids. I would think that when a certain age category is reached, an elemental path/progression makes sense: Air, Earth, Fire, or Water. Maybe throw in Wood and Metal for the Oriental Adventures crowd? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Jan 2015 : 13:01:14
Well, Krash, thats how I have it my own homebrew world - one race of giants that can acquire 'elemental templates' (or even other templates, like 'eldritch'), but in terms of The Realms and D&D in general, we are stuck with various actual subraces.
MY giants start off like hill giants, because they are child-like. Like dragons they have several 'age categories', and they increase in intelligence with each category (right on up to genius). Back in the days of the 'giant kingdoms' one could find all shapes and size giants living together, but things have changed since they've become rarer. Basically, I took the Glorantha (RQ) giants and pasted the D&D mechanics on top of them. Thus, a 'Titan' would just be a very ancient giant (no template).
Besides the elemental factor with giantkin, we also have the odd nature of a two-tier power system throughout D&D, with 'greater' and 'lesser' versions of just about everything (because most 'monsters' are part of RW folklore, which connects them to 'other planes'). So as D&D matured, and we got the Great Wheel cosmology, and we needed more powerful (original) versions of all those creatures, we wound-up with a very confusing array of lore and beasties.
Which is something I try to explain-away with my over-cosmology. The shattering of the One World (Midgard, Eden, etc) fractured the various planer races, and most have 'devolved' to their current terrestrial (prime) state. Even within groupings we would think were the same they are not; for example, the fire giants in The Realms are a little different then the fire Giants in Eberron, etc. Worlds with many planer connections (FR, GH) would have the most 'generic' versions (which helps explain why some worlds have variants). So the giants we found on D&D worlds are not 'true' giants - they are (almost) all offshoots.
And George, we do have something akin to those Earthsea Giants (not counting the blatant SJ knock-off, the Farsea Giants) - there are the Coomb Giants of Kara-Tur. They do not have that 'elemental' subtype... they are simply 'giants' (in their brief write-up on pg.33 of Black Courser, they are similar to Hill giants, only smaller and smarter). Personally, I would just consider them an Oriental variant of the Firbolgs (different name and look, same mechanics).
And YES, I still HATE 'Goliaths' - the name is so RW it makes me gag. 
However, the mechanics/fluff for them would work for the Coomb giants as well. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 13 Jan 2015 : 23:07:22
I had actually thought about rewriting the Hill Giant and giving the race normal to genius and beyond intelligence because to me, they look to be the most human. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 13 Jan 2015 : 22:40:39
Looking at this thread, I'm starting to begin to think that D&D's slavish adoption of Norse giants has become problematic in the long term. Having to locate giants pursuant to an elemental baseline is restrictive. It makes you wish that they were more like the giants of the Thomas Covenant novels, which are simply durable and tough (i.e. can resist fire and cold). Notwithstanding the apoplectic response that would have been generated in the fanbase if such changes had been implemented in 5E, I really wish they had been brave enough to do so ... that would be something I would love to implement in "my Realms".
-- George Krashos |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 13 Jan 2015 : 13:51:24
Thats the bit i have trouble with regarding giants which is why i cling to the theory that giants evolve quickly.
There arent enough stable populations of specific giant types to enable the dispersement to such specialised environments.
I get that they could have migrated millennia ago as Ostoria collapsed but to universally apply that rule to everywhere doesnt quite fit.
So Tuern contains fire giants. Its the only volcanically active island off the sword coast. If they arrived millennia ago then i'm fine with that. However the Moonshaes have a population of frost giants on many islands. The fire giants from Tuern are said to be raiders, plying the waters in vast dragonboats and indeed Tuern sent dragonboats to the Moonshaes so one would assume it includes giants.
So removing the far to easy magic or portals did it, the only other explanation is that fire giants travelled to the Moonshaes and gradually turned into frost giants.
One caveat to the rapid adaptation theory is giant kin which dont change because they are not true giants. |
| AuldDragon |
Posted - 13 Jan 2015 : 12:40:00
Fire giants live on Tuern, and ply the seas in enormous longships. I think it is mentioned in The North boxed set. Also, check the random encounter charts for specific areas; if they have giants, that means there would be a local population in that area, even if the village/settlement isn't detailed anywhere.
Jeff |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 13 Jan 2015 : 06:53:08
Frost giants do have a settlement in the north, below the Shining White Uthgardt burial cairn. Fire giant settlements are more rare - they pop up in Forgotten Realms CRPGs more than they do in actual lore - but they can be found living on or inside many of Faerûn's volcanoes.
Cloud and storm giants maintain cities, but they're hidden because, well, they're up in the clouds.
I think if more giant communities had settlements, it would just serve to draw unwanted attention so if you're looking for communities of giants, you should be looking in very remote places. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 22:40:37
While reading Giantcraft, love it BTW, it said that one of the myths about giants is that they are rare which means since it's a myth, they aren't rare so it got me thinking. Why haven't giants across Faerun now, established towns, cities, or even communities?
Are they not as numerous as they once were to the point where you have small scattered communities of them that live in caves and such? I could really see Frost Giants establishing a city in the north while Fire Giants take up residence in volcanoes. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 21:00:05
Both giants and dragons have 'elemental templates', of a sort. So besde them both being huge and have a history of disliking each other, it makes some sense to connect them in the distant past. In my (homebrew) version, the giants would take on an 'elemental spirit' and bind with it, giving it some of the elemental's powers and resistances. Over time, the giants would simply be born with this ability, which would be an offshoot of the original giant race.
So when I theorized the (celestial) giants had a hand in fashioning the first dragons, the dragons would have been given the same options (to bind with an elemental spirit). Think of this as the 'internalizing' of something akin to a familiar, except you absorb it.
It was the elves that I thought evolved within a single generation, naturally. The giants used some form of 'ancient primal (Rune) magic' to accomplish their transitions (initially). Somewehre on this site I once posted the 'myths of the dwarves', about how the jötnar broke their trust and used the Rûntharc (Power Runes) to change themselves.
I keep wanting to go with the giants actually being the forerunner for humans, and thus giants would be the 'human creator race', rather then modern humans. Its a cool idea, but I'd have to really tweak the living heck out of every little bit of the FR canon to get it to work (if it was even possible). Like so many other creatures (RW), (FR) humans evolved from creatures that were much larger, and when the food sources became scarce and the environment unfriendly, giants became much smaller... humans! I actually got that idea after reading about the history of horse - they've been HUGE, and they've been tiny, back-and-forth several times over a hundred thousand years or more. Their size and attributes change with the environment (everything does, but the horses are what gave me the idea for FR's giants).
I have it where all of the Creator Races had special built-in adaption. I always assumed the humans was the ability to quickly adapt to new situations (as per the 3e rules). The other races all physically changed - Batrachi with their shape-shifting, the Sarrukh with their ability to mutate anything with scales, the Fey can change size and shape (because they are actually energy beings that take a physical avatar anchored to some in nature). But then I thought about giants - some of them can change size (Firbolgs), and since I am relating them to dwarves (and gnomes), those races also varieties that change size as well (so perhaps dwarves just got 'stuck' that way?) Maybe thats even how they did that 'elemental adaption' thing i mentioned above. the first races were not 'set in stone' - they were malleable.
So the giant empires didn't vanish... they just became humans. (once again, completely non-canon take). I also decided NOT to go with this, because although it would work nicely with FR's lore, I prefer giants to be something completely different IMG. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 14:47:11
I had a go at sorting the giant/dragon creation myths in Issue 6 of my Alternate Dimensions magazine, A Time of Dragons Article (and a little bit in The Science of Divinity Article).
The only bit thats really different from realmslore is placing the creation of the Great Glacier in -25000 instead of -2500. Otherwise i got everything from the Draconomicon and Giantcraft and the 1e Monsters and Mythologies books and twisted the existing histories to match my interpretation.
I hold to Markus' theory that a giant evolves over time (quite rapidly sometimes in a single generation) to mimic the environment in which it lives. So the giants of Helligheim, Ostoria, Grunfesting, etc were all just really, really large humanoids. After a few generations they began to branch out into Frost Giants, Fire Giants, Hill Giants, Storm Giants, etc depending upon where they lived.
So the original giants were just giants. The children of Annam were called Titans, but Titans is also the name given to a giant that fled to the Outer Planes (and evolved to live there) as some of Lanaxis' children did when Ostoria fell, but it is entirely possible that some giants went to the Outer Planes before Ostoria fell as well.
I dont know whether it irons out all the inconsistencies in giant lore but it works for me. And i got to create an entirely new subrace of dragon that is now extinct (the scarlet dragon). I also had a go at fixing how Tiamat and Bahamut supposedly existed (and the Dragonfall War) before dragons were even born/created. Because its all myths and legends you can mess around with it loads as long as its similar then it might be true. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 13:14:07
Which is what I said in the first of my two-parter, above. I really do have to learn how to 'get to the point'.
The world used to be warmer - thats a fact. The glacier wasn't always there, and the type of flora and fauna that would have existed would be akin to that of our own pliocene era (huge, so the giants would fit right in).
The more I think about the giants and elves working together, the more it makes sense: Both were at-war with the dragons in the centuries following the Sundering. This may have also lead to some initial feelings of distrust between the elves and dwarves (who never really got along with giants).
Later - during a period when the Elves distrusted the Netherese and were acting covertly against them - the Netherese experienced a series of battles with giants. In fact, the 'Cloud kingdom' may had some association with Avariel (& giants). Could be a good reason why Netheril 'took to the skies' in the first place (they didn't like being watched). |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 11 Jan 2015 : 22:51:41
I would say back then the world was covered in large swaths of forest and animals. |
| Rymac |
Posted - 11 Jan 2015 : 22:13:30
quote:
Originally posted by Gustaveren
Well, one option would be, if some giant tribes used sun baked mud bricks, well a lot bigger bricks compared to the ones used by early Egyptian dynasties, but the effect would be the same, that is, in the real world does those pyramids made of sun baked mud bricks look like hills after several thousand years.
The next question is, why did the Giants kingdoms die. The simple answer could be, starvation when there was weather changes or a natural catastrophe. A bit like the death of the dinosours while many mammals survived. Basically, as far as i know, the higher you are the more food do you need per cubic centimeter of your body since your blood has to reach all parts of the body and it takes more energy to get it high up even though blood vessel diameter and hearth beat has been optimized by natural selection to your species average height.
To me, logically, it would come down to resource management. A nation/kingdom of giants would need a vast amount of replenishment resources. A family or tribe of giants in an area could thrive, but a nation? Probably not. The resources would be consumed far to quickly.
Giant Empires of the past might have had more amounts of resources, but a millennia of war with dragons would have used up and/or destroyed large swaths of territory, and the resources they produced. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 11 Jan 2015 : 21:58:15
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
One question?
Why would the Fire Giants build a surface kingdom?
It was the land given to Masud by Annam. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 11 Jan 2015 : 20:10:12
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
That is something else I have never seen lore or even maps on, Ironfang Keep. It's been there for ages and yet I have never seen any indepth knowledge of it.
Ironfang Keep was constructed by the giants of Helligheim. You can read more about it here: http://archive.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drrl/20071107a
Thanks for that Brian! Very interesting article.
One question?
Why would the Fire Giants build a surface kingdom? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Jan 2015 : 15:11:01
Part II:
Now that I am thinking about this again, I had an idea for the timeline of their empire, but I just ran into a major snafu. I was thinking, what if the giants began to migrate south after the dragons were no longer a threat (post Dracorage mythal), settled around the inner sea, and THEN the tearfall that created the Sea of Fallen Stars happened, further driving the giants away and in every direction? In other words, they were driven south by the encroaching glacier, settled the lands around the Inner sea and created a new empire, and then another catastrophe happened. That works nicely except for one thing - that event should have happened FIRST.
I am getting into one of those 'missing pieces' areas in the lore. We aren't really sure what created the inner Sea; I have my suspicions, and if I am correct, that should actually date back to the (1st) Sundering (the Godwar). The final stages of Ostorio should have happened after the Sundering. But then we have elves and dwarves having the draco-giant war in THEIR histories. The only way to make this all work out is to shift the order of a couple of things (and we have our choice of which ones). For example, what if the dragon-giant war happened well after the events surrounding Ulutiu and Annam? That would actually work best - stick the 'myth' back into primordial times (pre-Sundering), and then move the Draco-Giant war where it should be - post-Sundering and just before the rise of the elves.
What that means is that the giants would have been fighting the dragons on one front, and the glacier on the other. It also means that the dragons probably 'landed' during that Sundering, and the giants empire would have been far more massive then we thought - covering most of the eastern heartlands as well. So they take a major hit (literally) when the Inner sea is created, and they lose a good chunk of their southern holdings. The dragons arrive and begin to take-over those regions where the giants were most devastated. Then the giants begin to fight the dragons as they move out of their own dwindling northern territory (so now at least part of the glacier can be blamed on the uber-tearfall that likely happened as part of the sundering). The elves may have even worked with the giantkin for a time (I don't recall any animosity between the two), trying to drive the dragons off all over Faerûn. That is when they would have learned the giant history. The dwarves are still a bit of a problem, but its fairly simple to say that when they first arrived they got some of their lore off the elves (or better yet, ancient giant bibliofolios).
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Jan 2015 : 14:46:59
Part I:
quote:
Originally posted by Gustaveren
Well, one option would be, if some giant tribes used sun baked mud bricks, well a lot bigger bricks compared to the ones used by early Egyptian dynasties, but the effect would be the same, that is, in the real world does those pyramids made of sun baked mud bricks look like hills after several thousand years.
The next question is, why did the Giants kingdoms die. The simple answer could be, starvation when there was weather changes or a natural catastrophe. A bit like the death of the dinosours while many mammals survived. Basically, as far as i know, the higher you are the more food do you need per cubic centimeter of your body since your blood has to reach all parts of the body and it takes more energy to get it high up even though blood vessel diameter and hearth beat has been optimized by natural selection to your species average height.
Well, that is the one major aspect of the Giantcraft/Annam story that makes the most sense.
I have always assumed that Toril had a series of 'little ice ages' rather then one great big one (and IIRC, Ed confirmed this). The planet may have even had a crust-shift at some point, which could have buried ancient empires under ice almost instantly. All it would have taken is a significant shallow-impact meteor strike, and we know that Toril has had dozens - if not hundreds - of 'tearfalls'. In fact, if you look at my map with the longitudes and latitudes of Toril, it appears that Toril is much colder the Earth - it is covered with snow and ice at much lower latitudes. Personally, I would have just blamed that on a greater axial tilt, but its already canon that it has about the same tilt as Earth (although thats an easier thing to change then to try and fudge everything else). We really can't use astronomy and physics to explain-away the anomalies because we have all that nasty SJ lore attached to Realmspace.
So getting back to my point - in the distant past (I'd guess around the time of the Crown Wars) Toril was much warmer, and most of that far northern territory belonged to the giants. Now, nature will do its thing, and in a relatively short amount of time any region capable of supporting life WILL, and the region where the Great Glacier is today may have been a wondrous fertile 'hunting ground' of pliocene-level flora and fauna. This would have provided the giants with ample food - such large individuals would have fit perfectly in an ecosystem filled with 'dire' versions of animals. As for the dragons, they probably mostly stuck to more southern lands (their reptilian nature can't really handle the cold very well), with the exception of white dragons (who probably stayed in more uninhabited regions to avoid the giants). In fact, I would white dragons were probably pretty rare at that time.
Then the glacier came, whether due to Ulutiu or some natural event, it began to encroach on the far north, which would have greatly reduced food sources over time. Eventually, the giants were literally starving to death, and most were forced to move to southern lands (once controlled by their ancient enemies, the dragons). Thus, the giants had their own 'retreat', much like the elves, and it probably took a thousand years or more. Giants are not the types to abandon their homesteads until absolutely necessary, and glacier move at... glacial speed.  |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Jan 2015 : 13:44:18
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I would imagine so.
There is also the 'Lost giant Kingdom of Jhothûn', detailed in THIS series of articles. Seems like that would be a great place to start to look for fallen Voninheim.
This Map I did awhile back may also interest you - its a (non-canon) mock-up of where and how the Great Glacier formed.
Markustay, now that's a nice little link to some lost lore. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Jan 2015 : 13:39:09
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
they were definitely in the area surrounding the sea of fallen stars, because of the things people mention like the Citadel of the Raven and Ironfang Keep. Possibly a big reason that a lot of ruins aren't seen is that they are buried beneath the moon that destroyed the area and created the inner sea.
That is something else I have never seen lore or even maps on, Ironfang Keep. It's been there for ages and yet I have never seen any indepth knowledge of it.
http://archive.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drrl/20071107a
Sentinel of Lost Helligheim
Scholars today know little of the keep’s founding though draconic legends do speak of mighty fortress of similar description around the close of the Dawn Ages, about twenty-five thousand years before man and elf raised the Standing Stone.
In that distant time, a terrible war spanning a thousand years had been raging between the mighty giant and dragon civilizations. Throughout the long war, the merciless dragon armies led by terrible Garyx had driven a wedge through the heart of Ostoria, leaving the fire giant realm of Helligheim terribly weakened and isolated. Centuries earlier, the fire giants had constructed twelve mighty fortresses across the breadth of Helligheim’s southern frontier along the shore of the Dragons’ Sea. Though impressive fortifications of earth and magic, one by one the citadels were overrun and shattered by the Dragon King’s armies. By the time the merciful King-Killer star appeared in the heavens to drive the wyrms into madness, only one remote keep remained standing.
Helligheim endured for another century or two but the Colossal Kingdom has been shattered and soon the defeated jotunbrud began retreating further into the remote wilds of the north. Sealed and protected by powerful runecasters, the lone basalt sentinel stood silently for several millennia, abandoned and forgotten.
|
| Gustaveren |
Posted - 11 Jan 2015 : 10:15:20
Well, one option would be, if some giant tribes used sun baked mud bricks, well a lot bigger bricks compared to the ones used by early Egyptian dynasties, but the effect would be the same, that is, in the real world does those pyramids made of sun baked mud bricks look like hills after several thousand years.
The next question is, why did the Giants kingdoms die. The simple answer could be, starvation when there was weather changes or a natural catastrophe. A bit like the death of the dinosours while many mammals survived. Basically, as far as i know, the higher you are the more food do you need per cubic centimeter of your body since your blood has to reach all parts of the body and it takes more energy to get it high up even though blood vessel diameter and hearth beat has been optimized by natural selection to your species average height. |
| Brian R. James |
Posted - 11 Jan 2015 : 07:08:35
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
That is something else I have never seen lore or even maps on, Ironfang Keep. It's been there for ages and yet I have never seen any indepth knowledge of it.
Ironfang Keep was constructed by the giants of Helligheim. You can read more about it here: http://archive.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drrl/20071107a |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 18:36:10
I would imagine so.
There is also the 'Lost giant Kingdom of Jhothûn', detailed in THIS series of articles. Seems like that would be a great place to start to look for fallen Voninheim.
This Map I did awhile back may also interest you - its a (non-canon) mock-up of where and how the Great Glacier formed. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 17:56:33
Does Voninheim still exist then? Is it just trapped in the ice? |
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