| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dennis |
Posted - 28 Oct 2012 : 01:55:12
Strange alliances occur at the most unexpected of times. Who would have thought the Zulkirs could unite? And who would have expected to see the Zulkir of Enchantment help The Simbul, who has long been Thay's wild, unconquered 'neighbor'?
Could the same type of uneasy alliance happen to the independent, equally selfish Netherese archwizards? What would it take for Ioulaum, Aumvor, Zalathorm (if he's still alive), and any other surviving Netherese to ally with Shade? Gold? Artifacts? Slaves? Land? Telamont's kidneys? (Okay, scratch the last one. ) |
| 29 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 21:13:55
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Maybe if Tam decives the Zenths in believing he is someone else he can trick them to dohis work.
True. Everybody has a price. Szass Tam may be able to afford it. Or, barring that, he can send someone to disguise as Manshoon to lead a large chunk of the Zhentarim. |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 14:24:45
Since 4e the Zhentarim are more divided than they were before the Spellplague happened, they devolved into an disorganised petty mercenary group with no real leadership as Manshoon is waging his private war and the cyricist were never known to achieve much when they had control over the Black Network, hasnŽt changed from what i know. The only time they posed a true threat was when they had a strong leadership which was only guaranteed when Manshoon was not obessesed with Elminster and Fzoul Chembryl directing them as an arm of the Church of Bane.
Those pledging allegiance to Bane and are still part of the Black Network in 4e are most likely to work for Fzoul Chembryl and not a Manshoon who tries to defeat Elminster "at all cost". They would not do the work of Szass Tam.
He might be able to fool those not loyal to the, iŽd call them "True Zhentarim", but rather the cyricists or those only part of the group by name but not much else so we would have to differ between two versions of Zhentarim with the more reliable one iŽd say not going to do the Zulkirs bidding. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 14:07:51
Maybe if Tam decives the Zenths in believing he is someone else he can trick them to dohis work. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 06:23:06
Thinking on it more, I say you're probably right. However, we've already seen a couple of "strange" alliances in the past, so only time can tell... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Nov 2012 : 15:01:08
Concerning the Iouluam/Karsus thing.
For any of you who watch Big Bang Theory (and if you don't, you should), Sheldon is Karsus. Are there people smarter then Sheldon? Yes, definitely. How does he deal with that? He doesn't - he refuses to admit when others are right and acts like a petulant child. The unbridled hubris of being nearly better then everyone else. When you actually ARE better then everyone else, you aren't that arrogant.
In that scenario, Leslie Winkle is Iouluam. 
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I could see the Zhents now becoming the militant arm of the Red Wizards. I would have never thought that in past editions, but with all thats happpened, its a possibility. They need each other against Telemont and Szass Tam.
If anything, the anti-Tam Red Wizards would rather lend a hand to Telamont, and the Zhents would gladly give their full support to Tam.
I'm not really seeing that, but I suppose its no less feasible then what I proposed. |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 11 Nov 2012 : 10:14:30
They got Fzoul Chembryl and Bane would approve, i am not considering the cyricist incompetents true Zhents and Manshoon is too reclusive and caught up with his personal war on Elminster. They only need Red Wizards as troops but not as leaders. The only obstacle to have the Zhents rise to glory again is the cyricist faction in Darkhold that needs to be removed and Fzoul Chembryl can rally everyone back under one commmon cause and bring the Black Network back on track. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 10 Nov 2012 : 21:00:01
They kinda lack a reliable central figure/leader. The fearsome Red Wizards can remedy that problem. |
| Lord Bane |
Posted - 10 Nov 2012 : 11:22:18
The Zhents becoming the military arm of the Red Wizards? I disagree.
First and formost they need to consolidate power within the group, reduce the tendencies to inner fighting and getting the Black Network back into an efficient shape to achieve things. Getting ridd of Cyric is a vital step in this.
Then they need to establish a base of operation to withstand attacks from the outside and building up the local network they had from ground anew.
After they have done that they can concentrate on other matters but they need to sort out the mess 4e put them into in first place. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 23:04:53
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Same. perhaps i was thinking of the war between their 2 enclaves. Karsus seemed to resent any implication that ioulaum was as good as he was. That and he was batsh*^ crazy power mad.
As a matter of fact, it's not that they were deemed equal, but that many of their fellow archwizards thought Ioulaum was better. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 23:02:09
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I could see the Zhents now becoming the militant arm of the Red Wizards. I would have never thought that in past editions, but with all thats happpened, its a possibility. They need each other against Telemont and Szass Tam.
If anything, the anti-Tam Red Wizards would rather lend a hand to Telamont, and the Zhents would gladly give their full support to Tam. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 18:48:04
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I am aware of that piece of lore myself, but I can't for the life of me recall where its from.
It makes sense though - until Karsus came along, Ioulaum was THE Netherese Arcanist. He was the undisputed archmage's archmage.
Personally, I don't think Karsus didn't do anything Iouluam couldn't have done himself - I just think Iouluam had more self-restraint (wisdom?) then Karsus.
Iouluam went a different route - he decided to achieve his own deity-level power without having to steal it. He discovered the connection between psionics and magic (note that Elminster - perhaps the greatest archmage that ever lived - is a 'wild talent' psion).
On the other hand, Iouluam might look upon Karsus as 'wasted talent'. He was too headstrong and lacked patience, and he paid for it.
Same. perhaps i was thinking of the war between their 2 enclaves. Karsus seemed to resent any implication that ioulaum was as good as he was. That and he was batsh*^ crazy power mad |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 16:17:21
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
On the other hand, I don't think ANY of the archmages really liked each other - thats why they all went their separate ways.
Thats my guess too, but its a big diffrence not liking someone or hating someone. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 15:56:08
On the other hand, I don't think ANY of the archmages really liked each other - thats why they all went their separate ways.
I think the most they could shoot for was 'grudging respect', which is what I think Iouluam and Larloch have for each other (and perhaps Aumvor). I doubt any of those three consider Telemont their equal (whether it is true or not).
On-Topic:
I could see the Zhents now becoming the militant arm of the Red Wizards. I would have never thought that in past editions, but with all thats happpened, its a possibility. They need each other against Telemont and Szass Tam.
Of course, that could just be wishful thinking on my part - I've been porting the Scarlet Brotherhood into The Realms for years, and thats kinda what that would look like (which isn't a bad thing - the SB was probably the most interesting aspect of Greyhawk). |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 15:52:57
I remember them having a fight with their two enclaves against each other in the Netheril Trilogy but that seem more like some kind of sport to me.
I would really like to read more about those two.
As for the topic I really doubt the shades have something to offer to get Ioulaum to ally with them. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 15:41:55
I am aware of that piece of lore myself, but I can't for the life of me recall where its from.
It makes sense though - until Karsus came along, Ioulaum was THE Netherese Arcanist. He was the undisputed archmage's archmage.
Personally, I don't think Karsus didn't do anything Iouluam couldn't have done himself - I just think Iouluam had more self-restraint (wisdom?) then Karsus.
Iouluam went a different route - he decided to achieve his own deity-level power without having to steal it. He discovered the connection between psionics and magic (note that Elminster - perhaps the greatest archmage that ever lived - is a 'wild talent' psion).
On the other hand, Iouluam might look upon Karsus as 'wasted talent'. He was too headstrong and lacked patience, and he paid for it. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 13:18:33
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Ioulaum and Karsus hated each other
Where does it say so? |
| Quale |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 10:49:18
The only alliance I can imagine is that the Shades offer to free the Old Ones of Illusk. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 00:42:13
Fonzie didn't just turn on jukeboxes (and girls), he also battled a devil and an alien (Mork from ork). His thumb is considered one of the most powerful artifacts in the universe. He is quite literally, the 'guy who jumped the shark'.
His field of coolness is so strong it is the only force known to be able to stop Chuck Norris.
And those two guys invite Larloch to their make-out parties, so you know he is also uber-kewl. Ghostrider has nothing on him - he juggles flaming skulls (Lich Lords) just for kicks. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 23:31:05
One Ghostrider is enough. No need to make Larloch join the wagon. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 22:21:18
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Not that it's canon, but in my home FR campaign, Larloch is currently working on becoming the new God of Magic, so he has little enough time to deal with such trivialities as Netheril. He recently dismissed Shade as a "clan of weakling fools, false heirs to an empire far greater than they could imagine," and his words for Thay (a place where "magic is dark and dead") were even worse.
Larloch isn't just cool...
He is Fonzie cool.
*Imagines a leather-jacket-bedecked undead leaning against a motorcycle with two thumbs up growling, "Eyyy!"* |
| Dennis |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 18:51:29
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Ioulaum and Karsus hated each other, and it was archwizard Grennway from Ioulaum enclave who tried to assassinate Lord Shadow, Karsus' prodigy, using Alashar.
All grudges can be forgotten in the interest of possible greater gain.
Not all grudges my friend. Sometimes hatred runs too deep.
For example The Imperium of Man would never cooperate with the forces of Chaos no matter the situation. In fact both sides would actively seek to annihilate the other ignoring the greater enemy.
Aye. But since Karsus was long gone, who knows what Ioulaum now feels towards the Most High? People change, too, even if they're immortal. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 17:50:45
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Not that it's canon, but in my home FR campaign, Larloch is currently working on becoming the new God of Magic, so he has little enough time to deal with such trivialities as Netheril. He recently dismissed Shade as a "clan of weakling fools, false heirs to an empire far greater than they could imagine," and his words for Thay (a place where "magic is dark and dead") were even worse.
Larloch isn't just cool...
He is Fonzie cool. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 17:30:19
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Ioulaum and Karsus hated each other, and it was archwizard Grennway from Ioulaum enclave who tried to assassinate Lord Shadow, Karsus' prodigy, using Alashar.
All grudges can be forgotten in the interest of possible greater gain.
Not all grudges my friend. Sometimes hatred runs too deep.
For example The Imperium of Man would never cooperate with the forces of Chaos no matter the situation. In fact both sides would actively seek to annihilate the other ignoring the greater enemy. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 16:50:23
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Ioulaum and Karsus hated each other, and it was archwizard Grennway from Ioulaum enclave who tried to assassinate Lord Shadow, Karsus' prodigy, using Alashar.
All grudges can be forgotten in the interest of possible greater gain. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 16:01:39
Not that it's canon, but in my home FR campaign, Larloch is currently working on becoming the new God of Magic, so he has little enough time to deal with such trivialities as Netheril. He recently dismissed Shade as a "clan of weakling fools, false heirs to an empire far greater than they could imagine," and his words for Thay (a place where "magic is dark and dead") were even worse.
Cheers |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 14:44:03
I suspect some of the truly old Archwizards might demand a floating city of old of their own since the Shades seem ready to make a 3rd.
But it might be too high a price. The Archwizard in question would no doubt need to bring substantial economic and military aid into the picture. With Haluraa destroyed, Zalathorm if alive would not have a whole lot of bargaining power unless he had a hidden stash of Nethril goodies.
Same with Aumvor, but we know he does have a stash. Maybe him and one of Telamont or Rivalen could strike a deal based on joining a spell battle since he has little to nothing to fear with his 200+ piece Phylactery being scattered all over. As long as one piece survives, he rises again. Even more powerful than Manshoon's clone spell.
Ioulaum and Karsus hated each other, and it was archwizard Grennway from Ioulaum enclave who tried to assassinate Lord Shadow, Karsus' prodigy, using Alashar.
Larloch is currently dead with a possibility of return from how I interpreted the new books, but seemed above such matters as the empire reborn. When he wanted a Netherese artifact, he used Szass Tam as his employee on the side to procure it by offering him Tharkorsil's seat and the death moon Orb. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 03:06:27
Ah, the Nether Scrolls. An excellent bargaining chip indeed. Probably one of the reasons they've been seeking the lost enclaves and the NS's is to lure their fellow, independent surviving archwizards into joining their 'crusade.' And of course, the interesting part is how they would betray each other. |
| Sandro |
Posted - 28 Oct 2012 : 10:57:26
The only thing I can imagine uniting Netherese archmagi would be some sort of threat to magic itself (or whatever the 4e, post-Weave conduit to it is). They've spent millennia being self-sufficient (while Shade was just a distant memory), so it would take some significant change to change the circumstances that allow that.
On the line of magical lore, though, that could lead to minor cooperation -- or perhaps more, if it was the Nether Scrolls that held the lore in question. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 28 Oct 2012 : 09:43:06
Magical lore of Netheril and some stake in the Empire to come? |
