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jespin
Acolyte
12 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 23:38:50
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Without Halister around whats going to happen to the Manshoon clone that was mentioned in the FRSC? Do you think he will be the new Lord of th Under Mountain or leave in search of greener pastures?
Mod edit: Fixed misspelling of Undermountain in the title, so that this scroll can be more readily found in future searches. 
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Oct 2007 23:46:11
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 23:44:48
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We don't have enough info, yet. We actually don't even know that that particular Manshoon is still in Undermountain.
Me, I do see that Manshoon gathering some of the pieces of Halaster's shattered soul, and becoming some sort of amalgam of the two.
The lack of a resolution was one of my issues with this particular adventure.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 23:45:20
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| With the Spellplague and Amaunator knows what coming up...who knows. Maybe Waterdeep will get a new harbor where Mt Waterdeep was and Skullport will drown in the floods... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 00:32:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We don't have enough info, yet. We actually don't even know that that particular Manshoon is still in Undermountain.
Indeed. The last we heard, the Manshoon clone was still there... though nothing more after that.
It's likely Ed may choose to reveal more in time, regarding the fate of the individual Manshoon clones, as he's said in the past.
quote:
Me, I do see that Manshoon gathering some of the pieces of Halaster's shattered soul, and becoming some sort of amalgam of the two.
Hmmmm... So which do you prefer -- Halashoon or Manster? 
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 01:43:25
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Manster. It's funnier.
The Undermountain ain't the Undermountain without Halaster, though. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Matthus
Senior Scribe
Germany
393 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 09:44:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Manster. It's funnier.
The Undermountain ain't the Undermountain without Halaster, though.
I’m feeling the same – I’ve got the new Undermountain adventure, but the Dungeon has some empty feeling for me. Even if you still could find a lot of legacy of Halaster, it isn’t the same. I always liked the idea that you could encounter the creator of this “world” behind the next corner. I would appreciate some kind of heir – even if it would be Manshoon clone – on condition that he has enough of Halaster ‘s mad soul  |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 13:28:34
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| Maybe make a big batch of Halaster, Manshoon and Halaster's apprentices?? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 15:05:04
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Well, in my Realms, old Hal is alive and in good health.
And all this nonsense about Halaster death was propaganda to lure some problematic dudes to the underhalls |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 15:28:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Manster. It's funnier.
The Undermountain ain't the Undermountain without Halaster, though.
I concur. Besides, Halaster's going to be part of Undermountain long after he's dead anyway. Does anyone think mere death is going to stop the Mad Mage from continuing on with his mad house dungeon? |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 15:28:55
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| You could always set the realms in a different point in time when Halaster was alive also (no one says you HAVE to play in the current year) |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 20:08:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Manster. It's funnier.
I agree, I have this great mental image of him doing the Manster Mash. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 21:34:47
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| Manshoon had a bunch of clones as back-up...maybe Halaster was wise enough to place a "life-insurance" somewhere... plus, you can always ignore the part of official lore you don't like and go with your own ideas...that's the part of LIVING GAME that seems to be omited by Wizards... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 21:50:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Manshoon had a bunch of clones as back-up...maybe Halaster was wise enough to place a "life-insurance" somewhere... plus, you can always ignore the part of official lore you don't like and go with your own ideas...that's the part of LIVING GAME that seems to be omited by Wizards...
Well, the bit about his soul shattering and scattering kinda rules out a stasis clone popping back up... As does the fact that the adventure exists. Because if a stasis clone could pop up, then why didn't it clean up the mess that Hally left behind?
Truly, I'd love to see Halaster come back. I just don't see it happening, unless it's something like I suggested -- the Underclone Manshoon collects enough bits of Halaster's soul, and then merges with it, somehow. It would also be possible, I suppose, for those gathered bits to be brought back to life, but this would likely result in a greatly weakened Mad Mage. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 21:58:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We don't have enough info, yet. We actually don't even know that that particular Manshoon is still in Undermountain.
Indeed. The last we heard, the Manshoon clone was still there... though nothing more after that.
It's likely Ed may choose to reveal more in time, regarding the fate of the individual Manshoon clones, as he's said in the past.
quote:
Me, I do see that Manshoon gathering some of the pieces of Halaster's shattered soul, and becoming some sort of amalgam of the two.
Hmmmm... So which do you prefer -- Halashoon or Manster?
Shoonster?   |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 02:07:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Matthus
I always liked the idea that you could encounter the creator of this “world” behind the next corner.
Yes indeed! Halaster was the boogeyman of the Undermountain, and he could take an interest in you...which made that dungeon all the more scary. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1707 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 02:34:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Manster. It's funnier.
The Undermountain ain't the Undermountain without Halaster, though.
I think I prefer "The Halashooon that Walked Like a Manster!"
Steven
who's a fan of cheesy horror films of the 50s.... |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Daviot
Senior Scribe
USA
372 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 00:07:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
I think I prefer "The Halashooon that Walked Like a Manster!"
Yes, though that image just wouldn't be complete without canned screaming from a running horde of Waterdhavians and a dramatic, angled Title Card!
Still, I would tend to agree that if a Hordes of the Underdark-style surface invasion doesn't happen, that has to be some sort of replacement-boogeyman for Undermountain. It's just the issue of who and/or what said creepyness would be.
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One usually has far more to fear from the soft-spoken wizard with a blade and well-worn boots than from the boisterous one in the ivory tower.
My Tabletop Writing CV. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 09:48:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Manshoon had a bunch of clones as back-up...maybe Halaster was wise enough to place a "life-insurance" somewhere... plus, you can always ignore the part of official lore you don't like and go with your own ideas...that's the part of LIVING GAME that seems to be omited by Wizards...
I'm with Mace on this... in my Realms, Mystra's still around after 1385, but now CN and as unstable as the Simbul used to be before Elminster mellowed her out, and Halaster is now a Chosen.
Question regarding canon: Given what happened during the "Stardock" adventure when Halaster was abducted, why hasn't his death caused Undermountain's denizens to overrun Waterdeep? No, I didn't get the Undermountain mega-adventure; it didn't come with a FR binding, so I assumed there would be nothing canon in it. Turns out I was right, at least for my own purposes.  Just another example (along with Mystra and everything else that happened with the gods) of the new design philosophy at Wizbro: "Consistency optional."
Slightly off-topic question: If Elminster and the Simbul ascend to become the new Azuth and Mystra, and something attacks Faerun that really *needs* a powerful mage to defeat it, what's going to happen? Clearly, there won't be anything to stop it, because Wizbro didn't give us a way to bring our existing characters into the new edition except by complete rebuild. Nah. Enough wishful thinking on my part. I am interested in seeing what Ed does with the new setting, though, but it's going to be a good long time before I'll be able to bring myself to buy the game books. Ed's novels, on the other hand... |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 11:45:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I'm with Mace on this... in my Realms, Mystra's still around after 1385, but now CN and as unstable as the Simbul used to be before Elminster mellowed her out, and Halaster is now a Chosen.
And if you use 4E rules, you can make Halaster an Exarch and ooooo, you could have your PC worship him and use UM as a temple to Halaster and send offerings to him (Young Waterdeep Nobles), by convincing them to plunge into its deepest depths. The rewards for such lip service can rival that of serving even Bane himself. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 14:54:44
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Speaking of 4E, regarding Jakk's question about why hordes of Undercritters haven't boiled up out the Yawning Portal (did they still have the Yawning Portal in 3.0/3.5? I loved the Yawning Portal), the post 1385 Undermountain lore as it exists thus far seems to be confined to p. 199 of the FRCG and p. 129 of the FRPG. The answer seems to lie in "the lingering magic of its builder" and "titanic magical wards established in the dim past."
Erik Scott de Bie's upcoming Waterdeep novel is titled Downshadow, and Downshadow is "Waterdeep's newest neighborhood," consisting of the "lower sewers and upper reaches of Undermountain..." (FRPG, p. 128) So I imagine we'll know more in April! |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 15:18:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Erik Scott de Bie's upcoming Waterdeep novel is titled Downshadow, and Downshadow is "Waterdeep's newest neighborhood," consisting of the "lower sewers and upper reaches of Undermountain..." (FRPG, p. 128) So I imagine we'll know more in April!
Looking forward to that novel. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 15:33:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Erik Scott de Bie's upcoming Waterdeep novel is titled Downshadow, and Downshadow is "Waterdeep's newest neighborhood," consisting of the "lower sewers and upper reaches of Undermountain..." (FRPG, p. 128) So I imagine we'll know more in April!
(Ahem! Ahem!) Yes, stuff might be mentioned.
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Hmmmm... So which do you prefer -- Halashoon or Manster?
Shoonster?
It's all about Manshulhu. (1d6 PCs a round!)
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 17:47:15
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The name 'Halashoon' is so great that WotC would be stupid not to use it!
Anyhow, without me going off on a tangent about new stuff not conforming to 'known' quantities, the earlier incident of Halaster MIA can be held accountable for why it didn't happen te second time. Halaster may be a loon (although that problem was solved as well), but he ain't stupid. After what happened the last time he went AWOL he probably setup a whole bunch of contingencies, like portals that shutdown until he showed up to reopen them, and passageways suddenly filling with hundreds of tons of rock, or rivers diverting to block access to certain areas. I figure the whole place went into 'lockdown' soon after he disappeared: There was probably a timer involved, which he had to occassionally reset, which would explain why it didn't happen immediately and makes perfect sense, since he probably went on an occassional foray outside of Undermountain for brief periods. I figure the longest he would be gone would be a few weeks, so he probably had to be back and 'check-in' at least once a month for those contingencies to kick-in.
The other possibility is that after the last time, and considering he got his sanity back, he might have placed someone else in charge of the place. Like a clone, except that it would be another person entirely, that would be 'activated' if certain criteria was met.
Wouldn't it be funny as hell if Mirt wound-up as 'Lord of the Underhalls' against his own will?
Anyhow, if the 'Halaster Substitute' doesn't tickle your fancy, how about a giant flying skull, similar to the ones that already watch over Skullport, except this one would be the 'epic' equivalent. Basically you would have Halaster's personality (when he was still insane, of course) 'pasted' onto a giant beholder skull.
If you think beholders are bad, just wait until your PCs see a giant flaming Beholder Skull coming at them.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
It's all about Manshulhu. (1d6 PCs a round!)
Cheers
Thats NOT even funny... you just made my skin crawl. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Oct 2008 20:45:31 |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
503 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 20:34:24
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Just my 2 cents and maybe its just the optimistic side in me but I figure Halaster has faked his death more than once in the past why not one more time.
Maybe this attempt is overly elaborate and I know the adventure really does not hint at it. But a lot of previous material always made him out to fake his death often. I don't think its beyond reason that this might just be one more time. |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 22:01:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Speaking of 4E, regarding Jakk's question about why hordes of Undercritters haven't boiled up out the Yawning Portal (did they still have the Yawning Portal in 3.0/3.5? I loved the Yawning Portal), the post 1385 Undermountain lore as it exists thus far seems to be confined to p. 199 of the FRCG and p. 129 of the FRPG. The answer seems to lie in "the lingering magic of its builder" and "titanic magical wards established in the dim past."
Erik Scott de Bie's upcoming Waterdeep novel is titled Downshadow, and Downshadow is "Waterdeep's newest neighborhood," consisting of the "lower sewers and upper reaches of Undermountain..." (FRPG, p. 128) So I imagine we'll know more in April!
Okay... we're still seeing inconsistencies, but this time in what's supposed to be "ancient lore"... if Undermountain's inhabitants aren't going nuts now because of Halaster's death, why didn't they go nuts when the Twisted Rune abducted him? Although maybe I've answered my own question: kidnapping versus actual death.
Edit: I looked that up (or, rather, called a friend who has the 4E FRCG and asked him to look it up, and he emailed me the relevant quote): "The city is prevented from collapsing into Undermountain in part because of the titanic magical wards established in the dim past; these same forces largely fended off the Spellplague."
The "titanic magical wards" referred to there are also referred to in 3E sources, specifically LEoF and CoS; Waterdeep is built on the ruins of the ancient elven capital of Illefarn (I think), which had a pseudomythal laid under it to protect the plateau from collapsing due to the excavations of Clan Melairkyn. I'll track down the page numbers for you in a minute here.
Edit 2: Lost Empires of Faerun page 38: "Waterdeep stands atop the ruins of Aelinthaldaar, the capital city of Illefarn."
City of Splendors page 7: "As the Melairkyn extended the boundaries of their realm to include the topmost levels of what is now Undermountain, the leaders of Aelinthaldaar grew increasingly concerned. Eventually a deal was struck, in which the Melairkyn would provide a great amount of mithral ore to the elves. In exchange, the elves crafted a high magic effect that would prevent the plateau from ever collapsing or settling, no matter what occurred in the tunnels below. The plateau of Waterdeep still stands firm today, despite countless collapses in the caverns of Melairbode in the intervening centuries."
Still, I like Halaster too much to kill him. I'm not using 4E rules anyway, so there's no hard level cap, and I'm reworking the 3.5 core rules to eliminate the "epic tripwire"; apparently Paizo is doing the same thing with Pathfinder, but I want to see what I can come up with on my own before I see what they've done. Yes, I have the beta download, but I haven't read it all yet; I've been too busy accumulating Realmslore from the Realms downloads at wizards.com before Wizbro ditches it all as "obsolete". |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 02 Oct 2008 22:18:44 |
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Kamuraki
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 23:33:27
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| Manshoon. The Jango Fett of Forgotten Realms. |
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
- Douglas Adams |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 23:39:32
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| LOL |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 14:19:51
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| I'm fairly sure the Undermountain Manshoon was killed. See p.284 of the FRCG. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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The new Undermountain
