| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Sep 2007 : 04:58:21
|
Well,
We don't really have a thread for 4e FR, so... I made one.
Now, some quotes, since not all of us enjoy the WOTC boards.
Richard Baker posted on Sept 18, 2007: "Sorry for the delay, it's been a busy week!
Our manpower schedule is currently a little bit in flux, so this is not an exhaustive list: Bruce Cordell and Rob Heinsoo will be doing some work on the FRCS, as well as relative newcomers Chris Simms and Logan Bonner. (We're gang-tackling projects much more than we used to.) I expect that we'll get some of the old outside-WotC hands involved too.
As it turns out, I'm actually hands-off on this one; I'm committed to work on other projects. But I'm one of the folks who worked on the initial revision guide, which we put together almost two years ago. (Bruce Cordell and book editor Phil Athans were the other two guys on that team.)"
And
"When I can say a little more, I will. I've already shot my mouth off a couple of times when I shouldn't have, so I'm going to sit on my typing hands for a bit.
Here's one little tidbit I'll offer: The Warlock Knights of Vaasa."
|
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2007 : 05:15:25
|
Interesting, I wonder if they would still be called prestige classes? and hopefully not have a million of them  |
 |
|
|
Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2007 : 05:44:22
|
Which revision is he speaking of ?
|
Edited by - Skeptic on 19 Sep 2007 05:45:17 |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2007 : 08:28:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Which revision is he speaking of ?
Prolly the revision of the campaign setting |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2007 : 23:29:02
|
From Rich Blog :
quote:
Speaking of sunshine, here's a nice little ray of it I can share with everybody today: We've managed to book Ed Greenwood for 50,000 words of the new 4th Edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide. You might wonder why that would be something that even be remotely in question, but the fact is that Ed's a very busy guy with a number of other writing commitments (most notably for our own Forgotten Realms novels!) so it took some scheduling gymnastics on our part to make sure we could have him for a couple of months of writing time.
In light of that, our story team had a good meeting specifically about FR yesterday afternoon. We reviewed our original revision plans (they're almost two years old) and talked about where we are with the porject, and we kicked around the question of how much "course correction" we want to make now that you fans have responded to some of the big reveals at the end of the Grand History. We're not pitching the plan and starting over (if that's what you were hoping for, sorry, ain't gonna happen), but we are definitely tweaking the plan to speak to some of the how-can-this-still-be-the-Realms! concerns that are out there. I like where we got to, and I think most of you will too.
|
|
|
|
Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2007 : 02:30:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic, reporting Rich Baker's words
We're not pitching the plan and starting over
Well, they should...
quote:
(if that's what you were hoping for, sorry, ain't gonna happen)
Sorry, ain't gonna buy your books WotC!
quote:
but we are definitely tweaking the plan to speak to some of the how-can-this-still-be-the-Realms! concerns that are out there. I like where we got to, and I think most of you will too.
and I think most of us don't like to be told what we will like... it's way past the point of a leap of faith here... sorry, ain't gonna happen. IMC, there'll be no Spellplague, no deicide, etc. It's actually very liberating: my players have Epic PCs, and THEY will be the ones shaping the Realms in the years ahead. When I start a new campaign, for low-level PCs, the established canon will the one set by my PC, so ultimately, the famous NPCs will be formed of a gallery of old PCs, alongside Halaster, Elminster, Vangey and all pre-1375 characters... yes Scullya... you too!  |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2007 : 02:48:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic, reporting Rich Baker's words
We're not pitching the plan and starting over
Well, they should...
quote:
(if that's what you were hoping for, sorry, ain't gonna happen)
Sorry, ain't gonna buy your books WotC!
quote:
but we are definitely tweaking the plan to speak to some of the how-can-this-still-be-the-Realms! concerns that are out there. I like where we got to, and I think most of you will too.
and I think most of us don't like to be told what we will like... it's way past the point of a leap of faith here... sorry, ain't gonna happen. IMC, there'll be no Spellplague, no deicide, etc. It's actually very liberating: my players have Epic PCs, and THEY will be the ones shaping the Realms in the years ahead. When I start a new campaign, for low-level PCs, the established canon will the one set by my PC, so ultimately, the famous NPCs will be formed of a gallery of old PCs, alongside Halaster, Elminster, Vangey and all pre-1375 characters... yes Scullya... you too!
I've been a bit rankled by some of the "marketing speak" as well. Not just the "you'll like this," comments, but comments from some of the designers about how they can convert anyone to 4th edition given enough time, etc.
Its a very hard sell, and I was actually more open minded about 4th edition before the "hard sell" kicked into full gear. |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2007 : 04:05:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I've been a bit rankled by some of the "marketing speak" as well. Not just the "you'll like this," comments, but comments from some of the designers about how they can convert anyone to 4th edition given enough time, etc.
Its a very hard sell, and I was actually more open minded about 4th edition before the "hard sell" kicked into full gear.
Indeed, it's hard not to be a bit rankled by the marketing speak, and it's irritating to read over and over again how "cool" everything in 4E is. But again, I expect a sales pitch, so I'm not surprised even if I am annoyed.
WotC doesn't have to pitch their design plans, and I don't expect them to. Just as I don't have to buy any of their products. That's not a threat, that's a simple fact of life in a capitalist system. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
ShepherdGunn
Seeker
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 09:01:43
|
| I was really hoping to actually run through the "final" 3.5 Forgotten Realms adventure, and be surprised by the outcome. But with the Grand History coming out, and the One Hundred and One... This is How We Are Changing Things, Ain't it GREAT?!?!?! I'm starting to think that the new Forgotten Realms is going to be printed with "For Ages 5 and Up" stamped on the cover. The Marketing Speak almost seems like they are trying to convince themselves as much as anyone that this isn't going to be the greatest mistake to RPGs since West End Games lost the Star Wars license. |
"Man does not live by bread alone, likewise, blades and arrows aren't the only things that can kill him." |
|
|
|
Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 19:59:30
|
After a day wasted in an annoying exchange of e-mails because I read the alignment line of a "sample" templated creature instead of the alignment line of the template, I would like to voice my opinion on these "samples" and other useless padding that WotC uses to nearly double the size of their books without providing any new information:
First, for the love of Deneir, put "sample" creatures after the templates which were used to create them. Nowhere else, in any place, at any time, have I ever seen any books but WotC's which give an example of a rule before the rule itself. When I turn to a page in a "monster" listing, I want to know exactly what I'm looking at, not be given the impression that it's just another variant (yawn) of some standard monster that appeared in a book I bought eighty bucks ago.
Second, I am sick to death of WotC using "sample characters" to double the size of entries for prestige classes, races -- whatever! If a race or class's listing says X, Y, Z about it, I do not need WotC to tell me that if Thog belongs to the race or class, then Thog X, Thog Y, and Thog Z. If I'm intelligent enough to scrounge up $34.95 for a a book, I'm intelligent enough to be able to plug some random NPC's name into a recurring formula.
Along that same line, I think that we can do without "____ in the World" entries in any game book. If a player is too stupid to realize that someone who looks like a dragon or a devil is going to be unpopular with the neighbors, writing that fact down won't make that player any smarter, it will just waste precious trees and further line the pockets of Hasbro executives too damned lazy and complacent to have writers fill books with completely new material. I spent hundreds of dollars this month on game books, and the worst -- by far! -- were those published by WotC, packed with pages and pages of repetitious trash that any reasonably bright ten year old could have figured out for his own self. One book, whose name I forbear to mention, lest I really hurt someone's feelings, I consider to be absolutely worthless -- totally useless from cover to cover.
I have taken to pre-ordering FR books to save money, but -- I swear! -- if 4E Realms books are as shoddy as most of the WotC books I've purchased this year I will send them right back to the seller. The only possible exception I might make would be for an Old Empires and Imaskar book -- there's far too little about that area in 2E to suit me, and almost none in 3E.
|
I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
|
|
|
|
Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 22:06:07
|
I am seriously feeling a lot of hurt with what they're doing not only to D&D as a whole, but now to the Forgotten Realms.
Maybe I've put too much heart and soul into the Realms, because I really sometimes find myself not being able to sleep at night just thinking about 4E and 4E FR.
WotC is literally destroying everything about the game we've all come to love and share for the past 3 editions of the game. Both mechanics and flavor. I am feeling some pain here and I am sure others are too.
I am quite surprised at Ed Greenwood's reaction to this. I respect his decision to stay on board, but I really believe he should've jumped ship. If this isn't enough to make him leave it behind, what exactly do they have to do to the Realms in order for him to finally say,"That's it, this is going too far."? |
|
|
|
Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 22:29:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I am seriously feeling a lot of hurt with what they're doing not only to D&D as a whole, but now to the Forgotten Realms.
I feel exactly the opposite and I'm glad Ed is still aboard.
Useful eh?
I'm not really so proud of the 4E FR changes, but I'm a bit tired of the unconditional love about all the 1e/2e (+- 3e) FR lore I see here. Lots of very bad stuff was forced into the Realms since Ed gave them to TSR.
I'm sure the new Realms will be better in some places.
Also, I don't agree that some of the changes, like getting rid of the Chosens of Mystra, is changing the nature of the Realms. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be part of a two/three sentences definition of what the Realms are done by Ed himself. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 30 Sep 2007 22:38:44 |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 22:37:15
|
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I am seriously feeling a lot of hurt with what they're doing not only to D&D as a whole, but now to the Forgotten Realms.
Maybe I've put too much heart and soul into the Realms, because I really sometimes find myself not being able to sleep at night just thinking about 4E and 4E FR.
WotC is literally destroying everything about the game we've all come to love and share for the past 3 editions of the game. Both mechanics and flavor. I am feeling some pain here and I am sure others are too.
I am quite surprised at Ed Greenwood's reaction to this. I respect his decision to stay on board, but I really believe he should've jumped ship. If this isn't enough to make him leave it behind, what exactly do they have to do to the Realms in order for him to finally say,"That's it, this is going too far."?
The problem with Ed's jumping ship would be that it didn't change a bit for those marketing types. He sold the rights and unless Wizards refuses him the contractual right to publish one book per year (if I understood the agreement correctly) him jumping ship wouldn't do him much good financially...
Maybe, just maybe, he can flood them with proposals about Elminster preventing Mystra's death at Cyric's and Shar's hand, and they'd either have to publish it, thus making their own "perversions" obsolete, or refusing him outright, which would also make the contract between wizards and Ed obsolete... I ain't no lawyer tho, so this might also be just my sleep deprived mind saying stuff |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 22:39:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
The problem with Ed's jumping ship would be that it didn't change a bit for those marketing types. He sold the rights and unless Wizards refuses him the contractual right to publish one book per year (if I understood the agreement correctly) him jumping ship wouldn't do him much good financially...
Maybe, just maybe, he can flood them with proposals about Elminster preventing Mystra's death at Cyric's and Shar's hand, and they'd either have to publish it, thus making their own "perversions" obsolete, or refusing him outright, which would also make the contract between wizards and Ed obsolete... I ain't no lawyer tho, so this might also be just my sleep deprived mind saying stuff
Mace, please.. wake up. Nothing you say above has a slight chance of happening. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 30 Sep 2007 22:39:53 |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 22:47:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I am seriously feeling a lot of hurt with what they're doing not only to D&D as a whole, but now to the Forgotten Realms.
I feel exactly the opposite and I'm glad Ed is still aboard.
Useful eh?
I'm not really so proud of the 4E FR changes, but I'm a bit tired of the unconditional love about all the 1e/2e (+- 3e) FR lore I see here. Lots of very bad stuff was forced into the Realms since Ed gave them to TSR.
I'm sure the new Realms will be better in some places.
The Realms might be better, but I somehow doubt it. Sure TSR and Wizards tacked some stuff to the Realms that were not in Ed's version, but that's what you get when you work in a shared world setting.
Wizards, instead of doing the sensible thing, and tweaking the Realms here and there, explaining stuff that should've been explained since 3e FRCS was released (like Bane's return) and done some logical stuff, extension of current plots etc. They instead went ahead and let gods do what, to me, seems not only impossible but somehow steals all the magic from the Realms (literally and metaphysically speaking).
Maybe Mystra buried her essence in some poor chap who is now host to her divine essence (Mystryl was after all also deity of time, and some of that must've still stuck to good ole Mystra and even the new one, so she could have foreseen this), which would give us a Midnight Mk 2, which might not be so bad because Deep Purple Mk 2 was also the best version of the band...
Yet, with Cormyr, Shadowdale, and Anauroch, one would think that the great Lady of Mysteries would know something was afoot and act against it.
Another thing that bugs me about the idea is that without the Weave every deity who didn't move over to the shadow weave might lose his or her powers, plus I am not sure that Shar, who used the weave to create the shadowweave, would be so keen to destroy her own power by wasting Mystra...
Too many things left unexplained, and if this goes the way Bane's return was handled, which was basically a footnote, this does not bode well |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 22:49:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
The problem with Ed's jumping ship would be that it didn't change a bit for those marketing types. He sold the rights and unless Wizards refuses him the contractual right to publish one book per year (if I understood the agreement correctly) him jumping ship wouldn't do him much good financially...
Maybe, just maybe, he can flood them with proposals about Elminster preventing Mystra's death at Cyric's and Shar's hand, and they'd either have to publish it, thus making their own "perversions" obsolete, or refusing him outright, which would also make the contract between wizards and Ed obsolete... I ain't no lawyer tho, so this might also be just my sleep deprived mind saying stuff
Mace, please.. wake up. Nothing you say above has a slight chance of happening.
As I said I am sleep deprived...so shouldn't I rather go to bed? 
Of course I know this won't be happening...still it would be nice to know that some people took the creator and the fans a little more serious |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2007 : 03:22:12
|
No, I'd be really naive to actually think Ed leaving would actually do anything at all with WotC's warped mindset. But at least for the principle of the matter.
My first hatred with the new FR material is the deicide. I don't care how many people spin the same old,"There's too many deities." argument. That was one of the aspects about the Realms I thoroughly enjoyed.
It's a huge world, and because of that is has tons of lore and culture. In such a huge world, it made sense to have deities of different portfolios, agendas, races, and pantheons all over the world. Just like our own, which has millions, FR only had hundreds which is nothing to complain about really.
Next was the timeline jump. 100 years? All lore on present nations, cities, most of the famous NPCs, deities and their agendas, current cosmology, are gone---wiped out without a care in the world all for the sake of 'making that bread'.
The Realms just became a really, tiny world now with the 4E changes and I don't believe with any part of my mind and soul that it will ever be as good as it now.
That's just with FR, as for 4E as a whole, devils&demons getting a dramatic, superficial face-lift? Paladins no longer lawful good? Spell levels going from 1st-25th instead of 1st-9th as it has traditionally always been (and they say the game's going to be simpler with stuff like that?) and I can go on.
People are right. This isn't going to be D&D anymore (or FR, too, for that matter). It has turned from the Gary Gygax view of D&D to the WotC's version of D&D. It shouldn't even have the right to be labeled "Dungeons&Dragons", it should be "Wizards&Dragons" now or something. Because it's not the same game after 4E and it never will be, no matter how you spin it. And I have yet to see someone come up with a good argument against that. Throwing in the 6 ability scores, Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, and Wizard and orcs, trolls, and dragons is NOT D&D. Any tabletop RPG game can do that.
D&D was more than just that, and it's all going away for the sake of pleasing and attracting the damned "World of Warcraft" crowd. 4E, 5E, and 6E generations might or might not brag about their D&D games, but if they do all we can do is sit back and shake our heads and say,"It was so much better from 3E, 2E, and 1E. Too bad you guys never have experienced it with 4E+ and never will." |
Edited by - Razz on 01 Oct 2007 03:23:28 |
|
|
|
Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2007 : 20:42:52
|
I don't know nuthin' 'bout no deicide ... the only deity with a "helluva birthmark" on him in my campaign is Kyuss, because of the Ebon Triad conspiracy. I don't care what Wizards sez otherwise.
(For those not hep to the jive, "helluva birthmark" is one deer's description of a bull's eye on another deer in a Gary Larson Far Side cartoon.)
|
I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
|
|
|
|
Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2007 : 20:56:44
|
| hmm ... is the jump 10 or 100 years ... people seem to disargee |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
|
|
|
scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 04:25:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sian
hmm ... is the jump 10 or 100 years ... people seem to disargee
that is because it is just speculation at this point. I am leaning towards the 100 years being the final outcome though |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 18:33:14
|
If its a 10-15 year jump, the Realms 'may' survive - with upset yet still loyal fans.
If they go the century route then this is a dead setting, plain and simple.
Better to just call it a completely new setting, then what they are doing. Young Fans will still not be interested in the Forgotten Realms because they consider it "my Dad's setting", and older fans will be alienated and leave.
No matter how wonderful this setting turns out, slapping the Realms logo on it will do more harm then good - mark my words.
Anyhow, I've beat around the bush in other 4e threads with this question, but my curiousity has pushed me to the point of rudeness now:
Which way will Candlkeep swing if the setting is completely different and set in 1475 DR or later? Will we still produce lore set in the current timeline, or will we be forced to 'move forward'?
Where will we be at, if CK itself no longer exists in the 'new' realms?
Something I think needs discussion now, before the poop hits the proverbial fan. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 20:33:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If its a 10-15 year jump, the Realms 'may' survive - with upset yet still loyal fans.
Well I'm an FR "fan" and without doubts I prefer a century jump. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 02 Oct 2007 20:34:08 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 21:19:57
|
You're name is highly inappropriate in this situation.
Perhaps we should switch? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 21:24:17
|
Well, I must say that I prefer it that way mainly because we already know from The Orc King too much about the future.
|
Edited by - Skeptic on 02 Oct 2007 21:30:11 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 21:32:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Well, I must say that I prefer it that way mainly because we already know from The Orc King too much about the future.
My hope, though, is that we the players get to work against the happening of some of those events. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 22:15:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Well, I must say that I prefer it that way mainly because we already know from The Orc King too much about the future.
My hope, though, is that we the players get to work against the happening of some of those events.
One would think that with with Cormyr, Shadowdale and Anauroch players would be able to stop stuff, but that seems very unlikely now |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 22:19:28
|
| Maybe, with Mystra's death, El will receive a job offer from Ao, and finally he accepts... and he will be known as Elmystra.. given his already fraying state of mind, he takes over the Madness department from Cyric, who is imprisoned anyway and wouldn't do much with it for the next years or so... and Elmystra will make his clerics smoke, and his holy symbol shall be the pipe! |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 02:11:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Maybe, with Mystra's death, El will receive a job offer from Ao, and finally he accepts... and he will be known as Elmystra..
I'd prefer Mystminster -- to keep with the traditions and all!  |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 02:13:22
|
| What about Myster? |
|
|
|
Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 09:48:27
|
| if anything he'll probs end up use his own name or his old name that he lived under as a female, Elminstra :p ... might though with a corruption of the name so it over time end out to be Elmystra/Elmynster ... and become a dual god(ess) with both a femeline and mascoline form ... with Madness to boot :) |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 11:35:14
|
| Myster El would be the logical choice, if he could change into a horse of course. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
4e FR
