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BlackMoria
Acolyte

Canada
36 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2007 :  16:03:08  Show Profile  Visit BlackMoria's Homepage Send BlackMoria a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Well, the Grand History of the Realms is out.

**Spoilers** Highlight to show.

In 1384 DR, Tyr kills Helm in a romantic misunderstanding over the heart of Tymora. Though nothing can be proved, the gods believe that Cyric is somehow involved in Helm's death.

In 1385 DR, With help from Shar, Cyric murders Mystra in Dweomerheart, destroying the plane and Savras, as well as sending Azuth and Velsharoon into the Astral plane.

Magic bursts from the bonds of the Weave. Thousands of mages are driven insane or destroyed, and the very substance of the world becomes mutable beneath the veils of azure fire that dance across the sky.

Cyric is imprisoned on his home plane for 1000 years by Tyr, Lathander, and Sune for his crimes. This event is what is known as the Spellplague.

Apparently many planes are "shifted" or destroyed. The book states that only the greater gods can protect their respective planes from the destruction. This implies that some of the lesser [and intermediate] gods might not make it.

The last sentence of the book says that the Weave is destroyed and the "old world" ends and a new one begins. What that means is anybody's guess.

Further,

Although this has already been revealed in the novels, most of the Drow gods have been axed. All that's left is Lolth, Eilistraee, and Ghaunadaur. Later Ghaunadaur is attacked by Lolth and moves to the Deep Caverns.

And in 1383 a bunch of dwarven deities bite it. Gorm, Heala, Laduguer, and Deep Duerra die in battle with each other. The book says that Hammergrim "disperses" into the Astral.

The sample chapter for the Orc King (by Salvatore) gleans some glimpse of the future of Realms.

The Spellplague devastates most of the Realms in some fashion. Hundreds of thousands of people die in the chaos of the Spellplague. The Empire of Nethril rises, the aboleths become a problem. This is a reference to the colliding of two worlds though if this is literal event or bardish prose, I don't know.

The Silver Marches apparently are no more though Silverymoon survives. To survive, a very loose alliance with Obould Many-arrows arises.


Time of Troubles 2.0. Your thoughts?

Personally, I think they took my beloved Realms and drove it off into a ditch so it remains to be seen when the new campaign setting comes out, just how bad the car wreck is.

Alisttair
Great Reader

Canada
3054 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2007 :  16:18:43  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
???? Ok now I have to read this even more...

Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)

Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
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silverwizard
Seeker

Greece
76 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2007 :  16:25:27  Show Profile  Visit silverwizard's Homepage Send silverwizard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, the Realms ceased to be the Realms we all knew I guess. I'll have to see all the changes and what will be left to be able to make an informed decision, but the way things look now... doesn't seem very likely I'll be in any way involved in this.

/clutches his precious 2E books protectively
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malchor7
Seeker

62 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2007 :  16:46:46  Show Profile  Visit malchor7's Homepage Send malchor7 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by silverwizard

Well, the Realms ceased to be the Realms we all knew I guess.


I don't know, that seems like a pretty big judgment over a few lines, mostly about the gods. And there are always more mages in the Realms.

Poor Mystra--but she kinda had it comin'. Praise Shar!

(Kidding--kidding.)

I think the 4e Realms will still be the Realms, with the sort of (perhaps evolved rather than radically shifted) feel I like, perhaps with the balance of power shifted toward evil. No problem with that--more for the heroes to do. I'm tired of the delicate and perfect balance, archmages swooping in to fix all the problems--that's what PCs are for!

quote:
I'll have to see all the changes and what will be left to be able to make an informed decision, but the way things look now... doesn't seem very likely I'll be in any way involved in this.


I totally know what you mean, but I still maintain optimism. Don't know enough to decide!

Edited by - malchor7 on 14 Sep 2007 16:47:11
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1120 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2007 :  17:40:37  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Moradin's Homepage Send Chosen of Moradin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that the Realms are the people, not the gods. The chondatans, moon elves, thayans, rashemaar, and watherdavians are the stuff of the Realms.

Big changes are coming, for all of them. It will be a good time for heroes appear, IMO.

Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P

twitter: @yuripeixoto
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Aewrik
Seeker

80 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2007 :  18:11:40  Show Profile Send Aewrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin

I think that the Realms are the people, not the gods. The chondatans, moon elves, thayans, rashemaar, and watherdavians are the stuff of the Realms.

Big changes are coming, for all of them. It will be a good time for heroes appear, IMO.



I just hope the magic (that is, the atmosphere) of the realms doesn't disappear. They shouldn't change the setting too much, since it might alienate players, causing less material to get sold. Most people have grown accustomed to favor the present (since the Time of Troubles), after all.

I wonder what the Deep Imaskari will do, though... Obviously, they must have thought of something, since they couldn't have missed the fact that the magic they so deeply love, is governed by, and depends on a goddess.

Perhaps there will be a new age for heroes, but not necessarily Faerűnian-style heroes.

Edited by - Aewrik on 14 Sep 2007 18:14:26
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe

Norway
476 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2007 :  18:25:50  Show Profile  Visit Snotlord's Homepage Send Snotlord a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like it. Change is IMO the realms, not a static Old Grey Box version of it. Now I have a 10-year roadmap to work it, which suits me just fine.


Edit:
As for implementing D&D 4.0 rules I think an in-game explanation is fine, but it needs to be less heavy-handed that some of the rumors suggest.

Edited by - Snotlord on 22 Sep 2007 10:18:27
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore

USA
1089 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2007 :  18:38:54  Show Profile  Visit Xysma's Homepage Send Xysma a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"In 1385 DR... Magic bursts from the bonds of the Weave. Thousands of mages are driven insane or destroyed, and the very substance of the world becomes mutable beneath the veils of azure fire that dance across the sky."

1385 is the Year of Blue Fire, we should've seen this coming.

War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon

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Anthologies and Tales Overviews

Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.


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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore

Germany
1720 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2007 :  18:41:09  Show Profile Send Ergdusch a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am shocked! Sad! Confused! What more shall I say - I don't like much of it. Change is so scarry. I wonder how Ed could allow such things to happen..... besides, I wonder how these changes are suppose to benefit the setting/sales or whatever....

Usually I am not such a pessimistic person but somehow this does not sit well with me and therefore I have a hard time thinking positive.

Ergdusch

"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht."
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore

USA
1089 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2007 :  18:46:20  Show Profile  Visit Xysma's Homepage Send Xysma a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch

I am shocked! Sad! Confused! What more shall I say - I don't like much of it. Change is so scarry. I wonder how Ed could allow such things to happen..... besides, I wonder how these changes are suppose to benefit the setting/sales or whatever....

Usually I am not such a pessimistic person but somehow this does not sit well with me and therefore I have a hard time thinking positive.

Ergdusch



Aye, I feel your pain. Although I'm still clinging to the hope that our beloved Realmsmasters (Ed, et al.) will salvage our favorite fantasy world.

War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon

Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews

Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.


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Wenin
Senior Scribe

585 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2007 :  19:51:00  Show Profile Send Wenin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The book states that the old world has ended.

That was my Forgotten Realms.

Will I embrace this new Forgotten Realms?

I'll reserve my final judgement, but it isn't looking very good.



Spoiler

I mean come on. Gods killing each other over a mortal emotion?? Are they really that weak?
In the novels that covered the trial of cyric they established that the gods were static and set in their ways. They are programmed machines essentially.

The sky is alight with magical light??
YAWN
Cheese factor.


I'm rather surprised they are going for a bigger realms shattering event than the Time of Troubles.

I wonder if Ed Greenwood supports this change.

What about the reference of this having been alluded to in the Old Grey Box set, as though it has happened before? With this additional information, can someone track down that old reference?

Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR.

Edited by - Wenin on 14 Sep 2007 19:51:36
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1273 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2007 :  20:00:07  Show Profile Send Skeptic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wenin

I mean come on. Gods killing each other over a mortal emotion?? Are they really that weak?


Hmm Greek mythology ? If you have read Avatar trilogy and further novels, you saw that FR Gods also have this kind of emotions & "weaknwess".

The Gods static vision you talk about is only refered in Prince of Lies, which is narrated by a "chosen" of Cyric

Edited by - Skeptic on 14 Sep 2007 20:01:42
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2007 :  20:12:03  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It actually makes no sense.

This happened during the fall of Netheril, yet the effects were not so wide-spread. Magic may have winked out for a short time, but mages weren't driven mad (AFAIK), and mostly just Netheril suffered. Why didn't the same thing happen as last time?

Why didn't Mystra just 're-boot'? Is Ao missing? All of the Pantheons are effected by this, not just the Faerűnian one. The havoc amongst the gods is just as deadly and all-consuming.


This is not the ToT... the ToT was mild compared to this.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Sep 2007 20:12:56
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Faraer
Great Reader

3308 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2007 :  20:35:10  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My response is mostly 'Again, why?'

On one particular point, though (spoiler): The Weave is a metaphor for Realmslore, as a literary tapestry or a noetic sphere, as expressed thus by Alaundo:
quote:
These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious thing we have. Wherefore, guard the word written and heed words unwritten—and set them down ere they fade... Learn then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding.
My immediate response to destroying it would be 'Screw you too.'

Edited by - Faraer on 14 Sep 2007 21:12:47
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Wenin
Senior Scribe

585 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2007 :  20:37:45  Show Profile Send Wenin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Hmm Greek mythology ? If you have read Avatar trilogy and further novels, you saw that FR Gods also have this kind of emotions & "weaknwess".

The Gods static vision you talk about is only refered in Prince of Lies, which is narrated by a "chosen" of Cyric



The weaknesses were related to their pantheon. If Selune murdered someone out of passion, then I'd accept it.... but helm and tyr getting into it? That's bending believability to the point of it snapping... in my opinion.

That "chosen" of Cyric is a special kinda chap though. =) It was also a central premise of Mystra's difficulty in dealing with the other gods.

Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR.
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Faraer
Great Reader

3308 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2007 :  20:44:54  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Apparently they've gone with the humanized or rather soap-opera subhumanized gods of the Avatar novels, hitherto an obvious matter of literary licence, over the gods of the rest of Realmslore.

Similarly, Skeptic, I think you're confusing Greek myth with its late Homeric literary depiction.

Edited by - Faraer on 14 Sep 2007 20:46:18
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khorne
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1073 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2007 :  21:21:13  Show Profile  Visit khorne's Homepage Send khorne a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Helm gone? Mystra killed? Gorm Gulthym gone?

I think I actually want to hit someone with a crowbar. First time I had that feeling when it comes to realms-related stuff.

If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy
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Verghityax
Learned Scribe

131 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2007 :  22:06:29  Show Profile  Visit Verghityax's Homepage Send Verghityax a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think I will like the future Realms. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against changes. I like it when some major changes are introduced but... not at this pace! Not that quickly! After many years of static Realms it looks like WotC decided to make it just the opposite. In my opinion such things should be done step by step. I suppose that for me and many other scribes the Realms are not going to be "a second home" anymore.

Edited by - Verghityax on 14 Sep 2007 22:08:35
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore

USA
1283 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2007 :  22:38:43  Show Profile Send SirUrza a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I got the book today myself and I'm left sicker then I felt when I read the Salvatore spoilers.

With Azuth and Velsharoon out of commission, and Elminster in hiding, we can only assume that the Weave is "restored" or atleast magic is calmed by a new God of Magic. Either a Mystra 2.0 or Azuth or Velsharoon take the mantle.

I desire a reborn Mystra, (Midnight-Mystra), who's back with a vengeance. But I seriously doubt that. My money goes to either Azuth becoming the new god of Magic or Ao giving Elminster a promotion. It's a logical choice and gets Elminster out of the land, without getting high out of the Realms. On the flip side, Halaster could be reborn as the sane God of Magic. Either way, I prefer Mystra, I prefer the Chosen, and I love the Seven Sister.

You know, Wizards said the Realms wasn't going to be a point-of-light campaign or whatever, but it's looking more and more like that. The more I read, the worse I think were off and the sadder I feel.

BTW.. those that didn't like Drizzt on the cover will be happy to know that the cover is actually a back/front picture. The landscape continues off the cover to the left with the landscape, whatever Drizzt is looking at, Elminster is there looking at it too.


"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy.

Edited by - SirUrza on 14 Sep 2007 22:41:10
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3563 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2007 :  22:59:38  Show Profile Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I do not know if I want to invest any more $$$ for several years until this shakes out.
By then will I still be hooked on FR like before????

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe

USA
428 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2007 :  23:06:05  Show Profile  Visit dwarvenranger's Homepage Send dwarvenranger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting, very interesting. Lots of opportunities here.

If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.

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Wenin
Senior Scribe

585 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2007 :  23:06:39  Show Profile Send Wenin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The thing I keep telling myself.....

I'll play my campaigns so they all end before 1385 =)

There is a TON of lore for me to play with.

Also until recently the DMs I had didn't really play with the lore, they simply used the maps, location names, and general descriptions of the organizations. They never had any of the events of the realms take place in our games.

Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2007 :  23:29:45  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thats what I've always done. I never used the novel storylines, and I only used the sourcebook ones as backdrop. In that way, the changes in additions had little to no effect on my game or players.

Unfortunetly, the same can't be said of 4e. If entire cities and nations are dissappearing, and gods are dying, the changes are too universal to ignore any longer.

quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

I do not know if I want to invest any more $$$ for several years until this shakes out.
By then will I still be hooked on FR like before????

Thats not such a bad idea, really. Beyond the 4e FRCS, I might just wait for the 4.5 update in the PG.

Because there ALWAYS is one....

EDIT: I just thought of something funny - maybe the Githyanki will invade, because all the dead 'god' bodies are starting to clutter up the Astral. I mean, think about it... there's like three mystras floating around in there now.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 15 Sep 2007 02:49:46
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore

USA
1283 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2007 :  23:40:05  Show Profile Send SirUrza a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm waiting for the day when Mask becomes the big hero and backstabs both Cyric and Shar and recovers some of his lost portfolio from ToT fallout.

"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2007 :  00:07:44  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BlackMoria

Personally, I think they took my beloved Realms and drove it off into a ditch so it remains to be seen when the new campaign setting comes out, just how bad the car wreck is.



People probably know this already, but I feel much the same way.

I've seen most of the spoilers before, but I'd like to thank everyone who posted them--really. I don't like these changes, but knowing what they are relieves the suspense I was feeling.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 15 Sep 2007 00:08:29
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore

USA
1283 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2007 :  00:31:20  Show Profile Send SirUrza a Private Message  Reply with Quote
*nods*

Better to have your worst fears confirmed then to wait and find out when it's too late.

Hopefully we won't have to wait long to find out which major personalities make it and which don't, we already know 2 gods don't and 2 god vanished for now.

"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy.
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Calrond
Learned Scribe

USA
118 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2007 :  00:55:09  Show Profile Send Calrond a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, Ed has always said to change things in your own Realms campaign if you don't like them. This could be a way of encouraging that. I'd also say that Sylune is a candidate for the new Mystra, but man, this is not what I had in mind. Looks like all of those "End of the Realms" rumors that have been circulating for the better part of a decade were true. This isn't Elliot's "whimper", but then again he wasn't talking about Toril. Anybody else hoping we're getting punk'd?
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Wenin
Senior Scribe

585 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2007 :  01:07:52  Show Profile Send Wenin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I certainly am.

Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2007 :  01:12:46  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Calrond

Well, Ed has always said to change things in your own Realms campaign if you don't like them. This could be a way of encouraging that. I'd also say that Sylune is a candidate for the new Mystra, but man, this is not what I had in mind. Looks like all of those "End of the Realms" rumors that have been circulating for the better part of a decade were true. This isn't Elliot's "whimper", but then again he wasn't talking about Toril. Anybody else hoping we're getting punk'd?



I'm not going to delude myself into thinking it's all a joke, Calrond.

By the way, I understand and agree that no one has to abide by these changes in their personal versions of the Realms (I'm keeping my own version of the Realms intact). But I certainly don't think these new changes are to encourage people to do that. What I suspect (this is my theory, mind, not fact), and so do some others, is that these changes are about attracting new players/fans to the setting over keeping the old ones. Of course WotC isn't deliberately trying to drive old fans away, but I think I know what the true priority is.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
618 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2007 :  01:28:47  Show Profile  Visit Uzzy's Homepage Send Uzzy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Look on the bright side. We still have Drizzt! Hurray... etc.

Anyway, I suppose we still have our sourcebooks. We can only let WoTC know of our disappointment with this move, mainly by writing to Customer Service. A lot.

Wizards of the Coast
Attn Customer Service
PO Box 707
Renton, WA 98057-0707

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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2007 :  01:34:14  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy

Look on the bright side. We still have Drizzt! Hurray... etc.





Oh yes, thank GOD Drizzt survived *lets out a sigh of relief*. Whatever else gets destroyed...well, as long as it's not him!

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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