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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Aug 2007 : 22:34:31
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Good fellow scribes,
before I dig through the books on my shelf, does anyone recall where to find rules on how to knock out a foe (or friend) without reducing him to 0 hit points first!?
You know, the easy way with a simple hit of a sap or the hilt of a dagger or even a bottle of rum........
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"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2007 : 23:05:36
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quote:
Dealing Nonlethal Damage
Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you’ve accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not "real" damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered, and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. It doesn’t matter whether the nonlethal damage equals or exceeds your current hit points because the nonlethal damage has gone up or because your current hit points have gone down.
Nonlethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Lethal Damage
You can use a melee weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage instead, but you take a -4 penalty on your attack roll.
Lethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Nonlethal Damage
You can use a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, including an unarmed strike, to deal lethal damage instead, but you take a -4 penalty on your attack roll.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2007 : 23:15:10
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Thanks Kentinal, for the quick reply. However, that is not exaclty what I was looking for. I rather ment to knock someone out with just on precice hit on the head.
Like when to kindnap somebody it would not really help to have to bash him up for several rounds allowing him to cry for help.......... just one attack, one hit and than the sweet embrace of unconciousness.
Any idea? |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2007 : 23:17:14
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| Well as Kentinal posted.... it would be a -4 on the attack roll. If it worked then it worked and if it didn't... then it didn't... Dunno what else you are lookin for exactly..... |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Tacitus
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2007 : 23:27:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Like when to kindnap somebody it would not really help to have to bash him up for several rounds allowing him to cry for help.......... just one attack, one hit and than the sweet embrace of unconciousness.
Any idea?
I don't think there are any way do that in 3.5 E (without using magic). However, you could modify the Coup de Grace rules to suit your purpose:
quote:
Coup de Grace
As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to "find" the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
Just like it's possible for a combatant to "pull" his blow so that he inflicts subdual damage, you could rule that it's possible to inflict a nonlethal coup de grace on an unwitting target (which would then cause unconsciousness rather than death.) |
Edited by - Tacitus on 11 Aug 2007 23:29:15 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2007 : 23:45:56
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Well an Epic +40 sap might work, the 3X does not have called shots as far as I know. Of course getting a Critical could increase damage of either kind. All in all it depends how powerful the rarget is. As mention spell can work in one round, but even that is not assured if traget is high level.
Finding someone sleeping could allow a knockout in my game with one blow prehaps with a DC check. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2007 : 23:50:49
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Sounds all very disappointing. So knocking out e.g. a 4th-lvl cleric with 25hp would not work unless you aktually would do 25 non-lethal dmg with the first attack...? Mmh - that would leave me with creating my own rule if I want to allow this kind of trick without magic (or poison).
Thanks for your help so far. If you come up with any ideason how such a rule might look like -let me know. Thanks again,
Ergdusch |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1072 Posts |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2007 : 00:09:53
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25 hit points, might not be that hard.
Using a surprise round where Cleric is flatfooted, perferible not wearing armor as well, 3 or four NPCs with good stats have a good chance to inflict 25 points of damage before the Cleric can react. Clearly most kidmappings occur when traget is not with friends so surrounding should not be hard. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2007 : 00:33:10
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| Can the assassin's death attack render someone unconscious instead of dead? if so, there's your solution... assassins! |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1072 Posts |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2007 : 00:45:43
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Hmm, that would have to be at least character level 6, perhaps not a problem for a party level average of 4, but clearly a level 4 Cleric might fail a save.
quote:
If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice). While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin’s class level + the assassin’s Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Brenigin
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
117 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2007 : 02:36:44
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| I'd make a house rule for it, with one important qualifier: if it can be done BY the PCs, it should be able to be done TO the PCs as well. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2007 : 08:22:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenigin
I'd make a house rule for it, with one important qualifier: if it can be done BY the PCs, it should be able to be done TO the PCs as well.
Well, Brenigin - that is actually a given! BTW, I intent to use it against the PCs, but of course they would be able to pull it off as well.
I will try to come up with a house rule, but have to see if this would not leave the special ability of the assassin rather useless as everyone could suddenly pull off a similar "trick".
Thanks for your opinion, everyone! |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2007 : 14:50:33
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| The easiest way might be to create a feat that somewhat copies the assassin's ability. The pre-requist would be the ability to do sneak attack damage, and perhaps a minimum BAB. Rather than allowing the kill option, the feat only allows you to knock the victim unconcious with an unsucessful save. |
"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2007 : 17:25:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Halidan
The easiest way might be to create a feat that somewhat copies the assassin's ability. The pre-requist would be the ability to do sneak attack damage, and perhaps a minimum BAB. Rather than allowing the kill option, the feat only allows you to knock the victim unconcious with an unsucessful save.
I'd not go for a feat unless this was something that was going to happen on a regular basis. Otherwise, it's a waste of a feat.
Me, I'd do it something like a called shot in 2E. Make it a reasonably tough attack roll to successfully attack the right spot while doing nonlethal damage, and put a damage threshold on there -- say, less than 5 points of damage annoys the target, 5-9 points dazes them for a minute or two, and 10+ points knocks them unconcious. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2007 : 22:07:02
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wasn't this detailed on the Comp Fighters hand book or the comp Thiefs handbook in 2e?
Delz |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2007 : 22:51:48
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It should take some sacrifice for a character to know how to knock someone out. It isn't something someone automatically knows, despite what movies show. =)
Make it like one of those Skill Tricks from the Complete Scoundrel. It costs 2 skill points to learn how to do this, and there is a requirement of +1 BAB (or more). Maybe even a skill requirement of heal.
This would also make it so they can only knock one person out per scene. Add in a stipulation that the victim must be flat-footed.
The Fort DC to stay up is 10+Dmg dealt |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
Edited by - Wenin on 13 Aug 2007 22:54:06 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2007 : 00:12:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
It should take some sacrifice for a character to know how to knock someone out. It isn't something someone automatically knows, despite what movies show. =)
I disagree. It doesn't take a lot of skill or knowledge to clunk someone over the head. That's why I think a simple mechanic, like a high attack roll, is the way to go. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ugly is the new black
Seeker
Australia
81 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 11:26:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Halidan
The easiest way might be to create a feat that somewhat copies the assassin's ability. The pre-requist would be the ability to do sneak attack damage, and perhaps a minimum BAB. Rather than allowing the kill option, the feat only allows you to knock the victim unconcious with an unsucessful save.
That's just too complicated to be effective. Ergdusch, the easiest solution would be for you to add Shock Value to your game. It's a concept that's found in the Game of Thrones RPG presented by Guardians of Order. Here's how it works:
Shock Value.
A character's Shock Value is equal to his or her Constitution Score divided by 2 (round down, minimum of 1). If a character suffers an amount of damage in a single attack greater than his or her Shock Value, there is a danger that the character will be stunned.
Shock.
If a character suffers more damage from a single attack than his or her Shock Value, he or she must make a Fortitude Save vs. a DC of 12 +1 per point of damage inflicted above the character's Shock Value (round down). If the check fails, the character is stunned and will collapse. The character will also let go of anything he or she is holding. The attack does not have to break the skin.
A character's incapacitation will last for a number of rounds equal to the amout by which the Save was failed. An incapacitated character is effectively out of action, either knocked out or awake but immobilized by pain or shock. He or she may not take any offensive, defensive, or non-combat actions. The duration of incapacitation from multiple failed Saves from several injuries in a short period of time is cumulative.
Shock Recovery (Optional).
Normally, characters only recover from shock after a number of rounds equal to the amount by which they failed their Fortitude Save. GMs may wish to give characters a chance to recover every round, however. In this case, during the character's Initiative, he or she should roll a Fortitude Save. On the first round the DC is 20, and this lowers by 1 (19, 18, etc) every round until the character recovers, either by making the Save or after the required number of rounds have passed. The character cannot take a standard or full-round action on the round he or she recovers, but the character may take a move action (or simply play dead). During his or her next Initiative, the character can act normally.
Anyway, I hope that helps.
[edit] By the way, it's worth noting that the Game of Thrones RPG is very different from D&D; it is a game where combat is grim and gritty, where characters recieve very few hit points per level; armour provides damage reduction rather than armour class (easier to hit, harder to deal damage); and the coup de grace technique was removed in favour of the ability to instantly slay helpless opponents as a standard action. Essentially what I'm saying is that you may have to adjust the way Shock Value functions in order for it to be an effective device in your D&D game, especially considering how hard monsters hit at later levels. If not, you may find that it's simply too easy to knock your PCs out during combat.
love,
nathan. |
As he knelt on the ground with his brothers around and the taste of his blood on his tongue,
His brothers knelt by him and prayed him a prayer, and he smiled and he laughed and he sung,
"Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done, the Dornishman's taken my life,
But what does it matter? For all men must die, and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife!" |
Edited by - Ugly is the new black on 25 Sep 2007 11:38:23 |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 23:07:48
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That seems more complex than the other idea.
My character that does 1d8+13 dmg would also be knocking anyone out everytime he hit them.
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Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 23:23:54
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| Why not modify those Shock rules a bit? Say, the damage taken in a single attack has to be equal to or greater than 20% of the character's full HP, plus their Constitution modifier. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ugly is the new black
Seeker
Australia
81 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 06:56:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why not modify those Shock rules a bit? Say, the damage taken in a single attack has to be equal to or greater than 20% of the character's full HP, plus their Constitution modifier.
You might have to playtest it a bit in order to get results that you're happy with, but that definitely sounds reasonable to me. If you end up implementing it into your game, let me know how it goes.
love,
nathan. |
As he knelt on the ground with his brothers around and the taste of his blood on his tongue,
His brothers knelt by him and prayed him a prayer, and he smiled and he laughed and he sung,
"Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done, the Dornishman's taken my life,
But what does it matter? For all men must die, and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife!" |
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Tacitus
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 23:10:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Sounds all very disappointing. So knocking out e.g. a 4th-lvl cleric with 25hp would not work unless you aktually would do 25 non-lethal dmg with the first attack...? Mmh - that would leave me with creating my own rule if I want to allow this kind of trick without magic (or poison).
Thanks for your help so far. If you come up with any ideason how such a rule might look like -let me know. Thanks again,
Ergdusch
I' d still recommend my idea of a non-lethal coup de grace. A normal coup de grace forces the target to make a FORT save versus 10 + damage dealt or die. A "non-lethal" equivalent might require the same saving throw, only that you'd go unconscious rather than die. This would much easier than trying to deal non-lethal damage equal to the target's HP total in one attack. |
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Brynweir
Senior Scribe
USA
436 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2007 : 23:59:20
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| Most of you know that I have been away from FR for a while, but I'm really showing my ignorance - What is BAB? |
Anyone who likes to read something that's really dark and gritty and completely awesome ought to read The Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks. You can check out a little taste at www.BrentWeeks.com I should probably warn you, though, that it is definitely not PG-13 :-D
He also started a new Trilogy with Black Prism, which may even surpass the Night Angel Trilogy in its awesomeness. 
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Ugly is the new black
Seeker
Australia
81 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 03:26:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Brynweir
Most of you know that I have been away from FR for a while, but I'm really showing my ignorance - What is BAB?
The first time I saw it used was in Iron Heroes, I think. So the term hasn't been in circulation for a real long time. It stands for Base Attack Bonus.
love,
nathan. |
As he knelt on the ground with his brothers around and the taste of his blood on his tongue,
His brothers knelt by him and prayed him a prayer, and he smiled and he laughed and he sung,
"Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done, the Dornishman's taken my life,
But what does it matter? For all men must die, and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife!" |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 15:30:09
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| is ther any restrictions on doing a coup de grace with a non-lethal weapon(quarterstaff)? couldn't you knock someone out with that( if they didn't save) one hit? |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
Edited by - Aravine on 15 Oct 2007 13:17:18 |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2007 : 03:11:06
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| hit em real hard |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 06:21:58
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Actually it is easier to knock someone out than the rules mess which was proposed. If there is a rogue type character, you equip them with a sap. If a sap is not available, then use a bag of nickels or marbles. Have the rogue in question specificly state what part of the anataomy they are trying to hit with the sap. Have them roll their sneak attack and damage. If they hit and depending on where on the anatomy they are hitting (namely the head), add another d6 (or two). This is what I use as a house rule for called shots and it is only a suggestion.
You can impose whatever roll penalties or other factors you want, but this seems like the simplest way put forward so far. Although I think this is what Wooly was suggesting earlier :-P
BTW, just for reference, a quarterstaff is a lethal damage weapon. A sap (or a bag of nickels) is a "subdual damage only" weapon.
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2007 : 14:56:00
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| you could also take the nonlethal substitution feat(complete arcane)if you're a spellcaster)) |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
Edited by - Aravine on 26 Oct 2007 15:40:55 |
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How to knock someone out
