Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 physics
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

boards
Acolyte

Australia
33 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2007 :  09:45:28  Show Profile  Visit boards's Homepage Send boards a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I think that Markustay's comment that the weave acts like an EMP is a simplification of Toril's physics. Simply put the laws of physics of Aber Toril is completely different to Earths. This means that real world technology does not work, which includes gunpowder (the nearest equivelent smokepowder is magical) and electronics. It may be possible that Gond could create something that replicates modern technology, but it would use different physics to what we know.

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2007 :  10:24:25  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As I said in that scroll... applying any type of modern tech (or any type of derivative for that matter) that is commomplace in our world and that operates thanks to electronic components or the use electricity for power, simply won't work in the Realms. The 1e/2e FR boxed sets make this quite clear -- the physics of Toril/Realmspace won't allow such devices to function.

The "DaRoni's Workshop" section in Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue provides a sampling of siege engines and other weapons of war that are of a tech-level allowed in the Realms. I would go as far as saying that these devices likely represent a portion of the "peak" of technological prowess at play in the "current" Realms.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage

Edited by - The Sage on 28 Jan 2007 10:25:12
Go to Top of Page

Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2007 :  16:25:14  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I, but I never asked, believe this is a hold over of Ed's design because in his version of the Realms, the Realms is connected to Earth and his PC's, and some NPC's, have been to Earth. So, my theory is that Ed wanted to keep Earth tech out of the Realms, hence the no electronics work in the Realms, etc. Plus, with the vast amount of magic that infuses the Realms, it makes sense, because as the Dresden novels show us, magic and Earth tech don't go together that well.

I even know people in RL who give off energy that they fry modern tech and so they try to stay away from tech. As an example, they tend to not wear wrist watches that have batteries and or circuits in them because they fry them in less then a week.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium

Edited by - Kuje on 28 Jan 2007 16:28:04
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2007 :  18:02:45  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Magic, I believe, IS a strong EM field.

1) Faerie creatures are magic, and are 'shorted out' with cold iron.
2) In Mary Shelly's Frankenstein she uses a srtong eletrical current to revive a dead body, 100 years later we KNOW that a strong electrical current applied to the chest WILL restart a person's heart. How could she possibly have known this?
3) In most fantasy, a mages hair 'floats around' when casting STRONG magic, In the conan novels, a barbarians hair stands on end in the presence of STRONG magic. We see this in old folklore, and in modern FR like the Simbul. Static electricity?
4) In the late 1800's and early 1900's Nikola Tesla built the largest dynamoes ever constructed and generated an electromagnetic field of immense power, but it only lasted a few seconds because materials available at that time were unable to handle the stress. 'Something' happened - he mentions in his notes/diaries that something so PROFOUND occurred that it frightened him and his assisstants, and he decided to NEVER repeat those experiments ever again. This BTW, from a scientific pioneer who feared NOTHING.
5) fast forward to the 1940's - The US government, using Tesla's notes, tries to make a naval vessel invisible. It briefly winked out of sight and went 'somewhere', before reappearing. That is FACT. There are many stories about the ship being seen elsewhere, or that the few survivors went mad, but those are unconfirmed. The experiment, however, and the dissapearance are well documented.
6) In the late 70's or early 80's OMNI magazine published an article concerning space travel. It seems NASA was working on something similar to 'wormhole' tech way back then. They postulated that if you could build a massive ring and create an electro-magnetic field with the identicle 'signiture' of one on the other side of the universe, you can shove a ship through it and it would appear at the other end. The article called the device a 'Torus'... Stargate anyone?
7) Freak electro-magnetic storms are often reported at times when planes and ships dissappear from the Bermuda triangle and Devil's sea (off Japan).
8) In medieval folklore, Eastern religion, Middle-eastern legend there are mnay beings (spirits) associated with objects in nature. Everything in nature has some EM field, and usually the more energy an object or place generates the stronger the field. Rivers (running water) always have spirits associated with them, and things in motion do produce more energy and therefore a stronger field. Modern Wiccans cast spells by invoking the spirits that are present in all things. Legend has it that some beings, like vampires, cannot cross running water. Hmmmm....
9) Alchemists did their 'magic' by mixing chemicals and applying 'Alchemist's Fire'. For centuries this caused some confusion, until recently when someone discovered that 'Alchemist's Fire' was actually a code-name for salt. Salt is the basis for all primitive BATTERIES, and Middle-eastern cultures (where alchemy originates BTW) equated 'Salt' with 'Life'.
10) In Eastern medicine they concern themselves with the Chakras, which are basically a system of energy that runs throughout your body. When your Chakras are out of align you become ill. Long Island, where I live, is called the breast cancer capital of the world because ALL of our power lines run East-West and generate a MASSIVE EM field over the island.
11) Ancient European folklore mentions 'faerie Paths', and many of them were mapped out throughout Britain and Europe. This paths, supposedly, were areas of strong magic. Where the paths crossed were known as nodes, and the strongest spells could be cast in such places. Hundreds of years later we find that these paths correspond to the MAGNETIC Ley lines that encircle our planet. Hmmm Hmmm Hmmmm...

Fact: If you can alter the magnetic field around an object, you can alter that objects state of existance (ie, do 'magic' on it). magic is just a primitive term for being able to do things that most people don't understand. Just about everything our science can accomplish today would have been veiwed as magic by a Medieval mind.

So, with all this diverse information I can derive at this most basic formula.

Electricity = Spirit (life) = Magic

If you can alter one, you affect the others. I call this Real World physics applied to folklore. Its amazing how many 'coicidences' one can find when studiing the beginnings of magical traditions. Objects/creatures/beings with relatively weak fields will receive 'interference' from a stronger field, perhaps even enough to cancel it out. When applied to many of our ancient myths (Faeries, Vampires,etc...) we can see some merit in my theories.

But then agian, what do I know. I'm just a seeker, trying to make some sence of this crazy thing we call reality.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Go to Top of Page

ShadowJack
Senior Scribe

USA
350 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2007 :  19:47:34  Show Profile  Visit ShadowJack's Homepage Send ShadowJack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow! I am impressed! Very well written, researched and thought out! I do not like to mix Tech and fantasy at all in my campaigns (exception is/was Shadowrun) but, as you say, your theories have merit!

ShadowJack
Go to Top of Page

Skeptic
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1273 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2007 :  20:49:48  Show Profile Send Skeptic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack

Wow! I am impressed! Very well written, researched and thought out! I do not like to mix Tech and fantasy at all in my campaigns (exception is/was Shadowrun) but, as you say, your theories have merit!



What ? I don't think such BS have a place on a FR board.

Edited by - Skeptic on 28 Jan 2007 20:50:04
Go to Top of Page

WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe

USA
573 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2007 :  22:25:33  Show Profile Send WalkerNinja a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
5) fast forward to the 1940's - The US government, using Tesla's notes, tries to make a naval vessel invisible. It briefly winked out of sight and went 'somewhere', before reappearing. That is FACT. There are many stories about the ship being seen elsewhere, or that the few survivors went mad, but those are unconfirmed. The experiment, however, and the dissapearance are well documented.
6) In the late 70's or early 80's OMNI magazine published an article concerning space travel. It seems NASA was working on something similar to 'wormhole' tech way back then. They postulated that if you could build a massive ring and create an electro-magnetic field with the identicle 'signiture' of one on the other side of the universe, you can shove a ship through it and it would appear at the other end. The article called the device a 'Torus'... Stargate anyone?
7) Freak electro-magnetic storms are often reported at times when planes and ships dissappear from the Bermuda triangle and Devil's sea (off Japan).



At the very least, these three things have been the subject of great debate, and can in no way be considered authoritative.

*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011
Go to Top of Page

Calrond
Learned Scribe

USA
118 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2007 :  23:23:48  Show Profile Send Calrond a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm with Skeptic and WalkerNinja. Almost complete BS.

As for early batteries containing salt, they may have, but it acted as a conductor, not the method by which the energy was stored.

The Bermuda Triangle and Devil's Triangle myths can be explained by large pockets of stored methane gas, both in natural underground reservoirs and in crystalline form underwater. That explains why ships sink (methane bubbles are less dense than water, so the ship is less buoyant, therefore sinks) and why planes blow up in the air (methane is flamable and a spark causes an explosion).

As for Mary Shelly, there are 4 scientists she could have based her book on, all of which were experimenting with dead bodies and electricity. This was back in the 1800s when electricity and magnetism were thought to be the force that drives life. There was a History Channel special about this around Halloween, maybe they'll play it again before too long. One scientist was "sure" that he could reanimate a corpse if the neck hadn't been broken. (He stole it from the graveyard hours after the corpse, which had been a criminal, had been hung.) He was able to cause the lungs to breathe in and out, which, passing through the larynx, caused a moaning noise. (The same thing happens when dead bodies are sent in an airplane's cargo bay across the country to be buried in a different place than where they died. The change in pressure causes their lungs to expand and contract.)


What I'm talking about is that there are some things that can't be ignored as similarities between the Realms and the real world. For instance, the fact that they do have lightening in the Realms, and that it's during storms like on Earth, tells us that a lot of the rules for the EM force are the same in both places. Of course, maybe we shouldn't dig too deeply here. This is a fantasy setting, and meant to be enjoyed, and stressing over things that really don't add too much to the Realms is just taking the enjoyment out of it.
Go to Top of Page

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2007 :  23:24:59  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

I, but I never asked, believe this is a hold over of Ed's design because in his version of the Realms, the Realms is connected to Earth and his PC's, and some NPC's, have been to Earth. So, my theory is that Ed wanted to keep Earth tech out of the Realms, hence the no electronics work in the Realms, etc. Plus, with the vast amount of magic that infuses the Realms, it makes sense, because as the Dresden novels show us, magic and Earth tech don't go together that well.
Furthermore, the fact that people of real-world Earth have ‘forgotten’ the once-widely-used gates to Toril, could also provide us with another part of the explanation as to why there has never been a proliferation of earth-tech in Faerun.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage

Edited by - The Sage on 28 Jan 2007 23:26:19
Go to Top of Page

Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2007 :  23:26:58  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Calrond
Of course, maybe we shouldn't dig too deeply here. This is a fantasy setting, and meant to be enjoyed, and stressing over things that really don't add too much to the Realms is just taking the enjoyment out of it.



I was about to say the same thing. I think in this case it's best not to overthink the topic and just let the FR be exactly what it is.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
Go to Top of Page

KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5402 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2007 :  23:46:47  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am inclined to agree with the wisdom of Calrond and RF on this particular topic. Interesting to speculate on, but ultimately, it doesn't really have any bearing on the fact that the Realms are what they are, which is why we love them.
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2007 :  00:13:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Magic, I believe, IS a strong EM field.

1) Faerie creatures are magic, and are 'shorted out' with cold iron.


This does not hold true for other magic creatures, though. Elves are referred to as being part of the Weave, yet they have no such reaction to cold iron. Other creatures, ones with a much stronger magical nature, are unaffected by cold iron.

Further, though fae are magical, I don't see anything stating they are composed of pure magic.

Lastly, if this whole point had any validity, then anything composed of or contained within iron would be wholly immune to magic.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

2) In Mary Shelly's Frankenstein she uses a srtong eletrical current to revive a dead body, 100 years later we KNOW that a strong electrical current applied to the chest WILL restart a person's heart. How could she possibly have known this?


In Debt of Honor, Tom Clancy wrote of a 747 being flown into the White House. The book was published in 1994. However, I think it's pretty safe to say he had no foreknowledge of 9/11.

In literature, there are many examples of fiction that appear to predict real-world events and developments -- another notable one had surprising parallels to the sinking of the Titanic. Heck, there was a cross-world puzzle that came out shortly before the D-Day invasion at Normandy; this puzzle contained the code-words for three of the targeted landing sites, as well as the name of the overall operation.

Someone thinking that electricity might affect the human body proves nothing.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

3) In most fantasy, a mages hair 'floats around' when casting STRONG magic, In the conan novels, a barbarians hair stands on end in the presence of STRONG magic. We see this in old folklore, and in modern FR like the Simbul. Static electricity?


Possibly. But other effects can simulate this, like an upward breeze or even a very minute lessening of local gravity. And since we don't see this in every case of mages casting spells, it can be dismissed as simple artistic license on the part of the storyteller.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

4) In the late 1800's and early 1900's Nikola Tesla built the largest dynamoes ever constructed and generated an electromagnetic field of immense power, but it only lasted a few seconds because materials available at that time were unable to handle the stress. 'Something' happened - he mentions in his notes/diaries that something so PROFOUND occurred that it frightened him and his assisstants, and he decided to NEVER repeat those experiments ever again. This BTW, from a scientific pioneer who feared NOTHING.


This profound happening -- if it's true -- could have been any number of things, most of which have mundane explanations. I'm sure that modern hydroelectric plants or nuclear power plants generate similarly large electromagnetic fields, and we've not heard of profound occurrences there.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

5) fast forward to the 1940's - The US government, using Tesla's notes, tries to make a naval vessel invisible. It briefly winked out of sight and went 'somewhere', before reappearing. That is FACT. There are many stories about the ship being seen elsewhere, or that the few survivors went mad, but those are unconfirmed. The experiment, however, and the dissapearance are well documented.


Like the Roswell Incident or Hanger 18, there is as much evidence against this incident as there is for it. Hardly conclusive.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

6) In the late 70's or early 80's OMNI magazine published an article concerning space travel. It seems NASA was working on something similar to 'wormhole' tech way back then. They postulated that if you could build a massive ring and create an electro-magnetic field with the identicle 'signiture' of one on the other side of the universe, you can shove a ship through it and it would appear at the other end. The article called the device a 'Torus'... Stargate anyone?


This backs up the magic theory how?

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

7) Freak electro-magnetic storms are often reported at times when planes and ships dissappear from the Bermuda triangle and Devil's sea (off Japan).


And these storms, which likely have natural causes, would play havoc with the instrumentation on the vehicle's electrical systems. The effects could easily cause these vessels to be lost, due to malfunctioning systems or loss of power.

I want to believe there's strange things in these areas, but there is way too much that can be reasonably explained.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

8) In medieval folklore, Eastern religion, Middle-eastern legend there are mnay beings (spirits) associated with objects in nature. Everything in nature has some EM field, and usually the more energy an object or place generates the stronger the field. Rivers (running water) always have spirits associated with them, and things in motion do produce more energy and therefore a stronger field. Modern Wiccans cast spells by invoking the spirits that are present in all things. Legend has it that some beings, like vampires, cannot cross running water. Hmmmm....


Many pre-modern societies believed in spirits in everything around them, particularly in things of great importance to life or their society. And objects in motion don't necessarily create EM fields.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

9) Alchemists did their 'magic' by mixing chemicals and applying 'Alchemist's Fire'. For centuries this caused some confusion, until recently when someone discovered that 'Alchemist's Fire' was actually a code-name for salt. Salt is the basis for all primitive BATTERIES, and Middle-eastern cultures (where alchemy originates BTW) equated 'Salt' with 'Life'.


Salt is also a flavoring for food, and was once widely used as a preservative.

And some primitive batteries were based on things like acids from fruits, not salt.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

10) In Eastern medicine they concern themselves with the Chakras, which are basically a system of energy that runs throughout your body. When your Chakras are out of align you become ill. Long Island, where I live, is called the breast cancer capital of the world because ALL of our power lines run East-West and generate a MASSIVE EM field over the island.


Kindly show me information backing up all of these assertations, particularly the one about all powerlines running east-west.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

11) Ancient European folklore mentions 'faerie Paths', and many of them were mapped out throughout Britain and Europe. This paths, supposedly, were areas of strong magic. Where the paths crossed were known as nodes, and the strongest spells could be cast in such places. Hundreds of years later we find that these paths correspond to the MAGNETIC Ley lines that encircle our planet. Hmmm Hmmm Hmmmm...


And what's to say that primitive peoples didn't discover these magnetic fields thru purely mundane means, and then assign mystical importance to them?

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Fact: If you can alter the magnetic field around an object, you can alter that objects state of existance (ie, do 'magic' on it). magic is just a primitive term for being able to do things that most people don't understand. Just about everything our science can accomplish today would have been veiwed as magic by a Medieval mind.


Other than moving it around, how are you changing its state of existence?

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

So, with all this diverse information I can derive at this most basic formula.

Electricity = Spirit (life) = Magic


I can see how you might come up with such reasoning, but I really don't think it holds up to serious examination

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

If you can alter one, you affect the others. I call this Real World physics applied to folklore. Its amazing how many 'coicidences' one can find when studiing the beginnings of magical traditions. Objects/creatures/beings with relatively weak fields will receive 'interference' from a stronger field, perhaps even enough to cancel it out. When applied to many of our ancient myths (Faeries, Vampires,etc...) we can see some merit in my theories.

But then agian, what do I know. I'm just a seeker, trying to make some sence of this crazy thing we call reality.



No offense, but I think you're reaching too hard, and finding things to support your ideas where no such relationships/correlations exist.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Kentinal
Great Reader

4684 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2007 :  01:12:56  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As for power lines running East to West on Long Island, New York State. The Island is about 110 miles long and at most 20 miles wide, main power lines would by nature of the Island run West to East (or East to West). This is not mystic, it is the runing power lines though the sound costs more, and repairing storm damage to the two long beach areas is far less expensive if those power lines are feeders from the main power lines instead of being a main power line.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon

Edited by - Kentinal on 29 Jan 2007 01:15:33
Go to Top of Page

boards
Acolyte

Australia
33 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2007 :  01:20:16  Show Profile  Visit boards's Homepage Send boards a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Heh, dont I feel like a fool, I meant to reply to a post and ended up starting a new one
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2007 :  04:25:12  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My entire point, which obviously some people missed, is that anytime 'unexplained phenomena' occurs, there is usually also a strong EM presence as well.

Have any of you watched the program Ghost Hunters? They try to prove the existance of 'hauntings' and one of the things they use is an EM meter, because ghost activity is usually accompanied by HIGH EM readings. Just one more example, BTW.

I'm not saying there are ghosts, witches, flying saucers (another VERY strong candidate for EM), fairy creatures, etc..

All I'm saying is there seems to be some connection between 'strange phenomena' and electro-magnetic fields. I have NO IDEA what it is, but the deeper you look the more times you come across it.

So, if magic is a type of energy and generates an EM field, and Mystra's Weave is theoretically the largest magical construct in the known universe, then it would be simple to assume that such a massive energy field inhibts electronics from working properly.

Or you can just say "it's magic, thats why".

But I'm the kind of person that needs to know why, even if I have to invent my own solutions. Take it with a grain of salt.

Oh, and I've seen that 'methane gas' explanation... and you think my theories are whack...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2007 :  07:08:26  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

My entire point, which obviously some people missed, is that anytime 'unexplained phenomena' occurs, there is usually also a strong EM presence as well.

Have any of you watched the program Ghost Hunters? They try to prove the existance of 'hauntings' and one of the things they use is an EM meter, because ghost activity is usually accompanied by HIGH EM readings. Just one more example, BTW.

I'm not saying there are ghosts, witches, flying saucers (another VERY strong candidate for EM), fairy creatures, etc..

All I'm saying is there seems to be some connection between 'strange phenomena' and electro-magnetic fields. I have NO IDEA what it is, but the deeper you look the more times you come across it.


Just because there seems to be a connection, it doesn't mean the connection is there. Again, I think you're simply reaching too hard to find points to prove your theories.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Oh, and I've seen that 'methane gas' explanation... and you think my theories are whack...



And I've also seen various proofs of the methane gas explanation, including aircraft engines cutting out with just minor amounts of methane, and ships being sunk by large bubbles of air.

If you're going to disagree with something, be respectful about it. Counter the points with verifiable facts, not statements that something is "whack" or "BS".

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Calrond
Learned Scribe

USA
118 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2007 :  20:05:41  Show Profile Send Calrond a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's my understanding that the magnitude of the earth's magnetic field is constant everywhere on earth (even though the field itself isn't constant; it's a case of vector math). Because of this, I really don't understand the concept of "leylines". Sometimes the field is pointing a little more toward the ground and sometimes it's a little more up toward the sky, but the changes in the vector field are so subtle that I don't think that Great Britain is large enough to really have "leylines".

As for
quote:
All I'm saying is there seems to be some connection between 'strange phenomena' and electro-magnetic fields. I have NO IDEA what it is, but the deeper you look the more times you come across it.

I'd say that there's no place on earth you can go that you're not in an EM field, no place in the universe, in fact. Stars have them, planets have them. You and I have them. So I'll admit that whenever unexplained things happen, such as reported ghost sightings or UFO sightings, there are always EM fields around. But I see that as more of a symptom of life than a cause for it that points to "magic".

Then again, I don't know everything and I've been wrong before. Also, it's always good when you can throw some ideas into the discussion that aren't necessarily the ones you believe in. Just bear in mind that cold hard facts are what seperates Physics from voodoo. By the way, there are Christians, Jews, and Modern Pagans in my Physics classes, so we're ALL having to find some way to mesh our religions and Physics together in our minds. Having said that, I usually prefer the solution with evidence to the mystical solution.

Edited by - Calrond on 29 Jan 2007 20:06:51
Go to Top of Page

Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2007 :  22:22:35  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Same here--I tend to be skeptical and if something supernatural seems to occur, I will always assume there is a natural explanation for it until the one making the assertion (of the supernatural explanation) can prove otherwise...and I really mean PROVE.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
Go to Top of Page

WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe

USA
573 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2007 :  22:50:56  Show Profile Send WalkerNinja a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From Wikipedia...

quote:
The concept of ley lines was first proposed by Alfred Watkins. On June 30, 1921, Watkins visited Blackwardine in Herefordshire, and went riding near some hills in the vicinity of Bredwardine when he noted many of the footpaths therein seemed to connect one hilltop to another in a straight line. He was studying a map when he noticed places in alignment. "The whole thing came to me in a flash," he would later explain to his son. Some people have portrayed this "flash" as being some sort of mystical experience.

However, some time before Watkins, William Henry Black gave a talk titled Boundaries and Landmarks to the British Archaeological Association in Hereford in September 1870. Here he speculated that "Monuments exist marking grand geometrical lines which cover the whole of Western Europe". It is possible that Watkins' experience stemmed from some half-recollected memories of an account of that presentation.

Watkins believed that in ancient times, when Britain had been far more densely forested, the country had been crisscrossed by a network of straight-line travel routes, with prominent features of the landscape being used as navigation points.


The article goes on to note that Mr. Watkins never attributed anything supernatural to these lines, and that those that do rely heavilly on pseudoscience.

*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2007 :  22:50:56  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

Same here--I tend to be skeptical and if something supernatural seems to occur, I will always assume there is a natural explanation for it until the one making the assertion (of the supernatural explanation) can prove otherwise...and I really mean PROVE.



Ditto. While there are many supernatural things I am willing to believe in, I'll always look for the natural explanation first and foremost. And even the absence of a natural explanation doesn't mean I'll immediately reach for the supernatural explanation -- because even though we do understand a lot about the natural world, we have not yet explained everything.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

boards
Acolyte

Australia
33 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2007 :  23:15:36  Show Profile  Visit boards's Homepage Send boards a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Same as above. Until I see verifiable proof of the supernatural I believe that there is a natural scientific reason for it, we just might not know what it is yet. As they say, any sufficiently advanced technology looks like magic.
Go to Top of Page

Lemernis
Senior Scribe

378 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2007 :  23:42:24  Show Profile  Visit Lemernis's Homepage Send Lemernis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What this makes me think of is a long view on how life arose. Start with a primordial earth that is entirely covered in ocean. Add powerful electrical storms. A bunch of stuff happens ;). And somehow we go from that to the planet now, where we have essentially electrico-magnetically charged sacks of water that got up and started walking around, and became conscious of themselves and their surroundings, i.e., alive and conscious. I certainly find that miraculous, if not magic.
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2007 :  05:32:20  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wasn't going to reply anymore in this topic, I already explained how I was just trying to give RW explanation for how and why the weave would interfere with tech. It wasn't meant as anything more then sheer conjecture, but whatever.

And I didn't mean that there are EM fields present when 'unexplained phenomena' occurs, I know there is always one present, what I meant (and thought I was clear, sorry) was that there is an increase in the normal field whenever something occurs. I would be greatly interested to know if there was any sort of EM spike during a SHC (spontaneous human combustion) but no one is ever around with a meter when it happens.

Anyhow, Wooly - Hundreds of witnesses say they have seen lights in the sky. hudreds have said they have seen or even experienced freak electrical storms. Some have even gone so far as to say they have seen 'ghost ships' or UFO's. Personally, I think 99% are kooks. I have yet to hear of one witness to a giant 'gas' bubble. It's laughable and quite a stretch. I have seen the same show you did and they were really 'trying' to prove that theory. I'm not saying they aren't right, but I would rather believe in UFO abductions then something as silly as "the Earth farted all those planes and ships to death". Seriuosly, I couldn't stop laughing when I saw that program.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Go to Top of Page

Sian
Senior Scribe

Denmark
596 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2007 :  08:12:44  Show Profile  Visit Sian's Homepage Send Sian a Private Message  Reply with Quote
its proved that the gas bubble is a workable reason in lab tests ... its the same principle behind quicksand but with gas instead of water, and water instead of sand

what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month
Go to Top of Page

BlackAce
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
358 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2007 :  10:11:00  Show Profile Send BlackAce a Private Message  Reply with Quote
These things always have a rational explantion in the RW. The tesla ship is the infamous "Philladelphia Experiment" which was a contempory science fiction novel presented as a factual investigation, that made people go "oooh" at the time, in much the same way as the Da Vinci Code has done today.

Roswell is another hilarious one. The US government conducted many early experiments with delivering nukes. One of which was based on japanese work in using the jet stream to deliver explosives across continents, via balloon.
As this was during the early cold war (and highly classified), when somebody suggested Roswell was "aliens", the government said "yes" as a cover. After actually considering the implications of what it was they were saying, they quickly changed their story to a 'weather balloon'... and the rest is history.

This story has been known in airforce circles for years but as it's still technically classified, it has never been admitted too in any official manner. The rest is imbellishment, conspiracy theory and hoax, but people still buy it.

Edited by - BlackAce on 30 Jan 2007 10:15:59
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2007 :  11:13:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Anyhow, Wooly - Hundreds of witnesses say they have seen lights in the sky. hudreds have said they have seen or even experienced freak electrical storms. Some have even gone so far as to say they have seen 'ghost ships' or UFO's. Personally, I think 99% are kooks. I have yet to hear of one witness to a giant 'gas' bubble. It's laughable and quite a stretch. I have seen the same show you did and they were really 'trying' to prove that theory. I'm not saying they aren't right, but I would rather believe in UFO abductions then something as silly as "the Earth farted all those planes and ships to death". Seriuosly, I couldn't stop laughing when I saw that program.



Methane emissions, which are a proven reality, are considerably more reasonable an explanation than UFOs. I do believe in UFOs; I have seen one myself. But, as much as I want to believe otherwise, a logical and reasonable explanation exists for some of the unexplained activity in the Bermuda Triangle. Just because you don't believe it doesn't make it laughable.

Dismissing something as ridiculous simply because you don't like or believe it is a quick path to shortsightedness.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Calrond
Learned Scribe

USA
118 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2007 :  19:02:30  Show Profile Send Calrond a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Right. Some things are explanable today like the Bermuda Triangle/Devil's Triangle phenomena. With the other things, I'd at least suggest we exhaust all the natural explanations before thinking about something supernatural. UFOs and aliens, if they exist, are not supernatural, just a part of nature that we don't know of yet. Another planet's nature, possibly completely foreign to ours, possibly very similar (since we know that life, and intelligent life in particular, has to share a few common characteristics).

When science doesn't know something, most scientists worth their salt will say "We honestly don't know" and may go on to say "but we have a few theories we're testing." Be very afraid of the person who never says "I don't know." They'll feed you a load before you even know it.
Go to Top of Page

Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2007 :  22:33:04  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Besides, UFO simply refers to an "unidentified flying object"; it doesn't mean it's intelligent life from outer space investigating our planet.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
Go to Top of Page

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2007 :  23:17:35  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We seem to be deviating from the Realmslore just a little bit. Let's try and bring this scroll back to just the Realms...



Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
Go to Top of Page

Lemernis
Senior Scribe

378 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2007 :  23:25:35  Show Profile  Visit Lemernis's Homepage Send Lemernis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lol, it's easy for this one to get all over the place. The Weave in the Forgotten Realms resembling electromagnetism manifesting in remarkable or seeming unexplainable phenomena in the real world is the topic, right?
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2024 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000