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Shandar The Ashen
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jan 2007 : 18:48:51
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Dear sages of the keep,
I'm trying to determine when in Dale Reckoning the Reckoning of Hell (as described in A Player's Guide to Hell) took place.
I might want to incorporate A Paladin in Hell into my campaign, but want to know when in DR it would be appropriate. This has major consequences as to the form some of the transformed Devils would have if encountered, who the rulers of the different planes are and so forth.
I'm currently in DR 1368 (and still using AD&D 2E). Can any one tell me if the Reckoning has already happened by that date, and if so, when?
If it hasn't happened, when will it? I know that a fair rule of thumb in TSR days was to check the release date of the product against the year in DR the product is set in. For example, 1368 given as the "present day" for the revised campaign setting release and Prince of Lies and other products released in Real World Reckoning 1993.
A Paladin in Hell came out in 1998, and A Player's Guide to Hell came out in 1999, followed by The Apocolypse Stone in 2000. Does that mean that the Reckoning of Hell begins with A Paladin in Hell in roughly 1373?
If possible, cite me a source if you have the information.
Thank you, great ones.
Mod Edit: Moved to a more appropriate shelf
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"What doesn't kill you only adds to your experience points."
http://adndholdout.blogspot.com |
Edited by - The Sage on 24 Jan 2007 23:36:11
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2007 : 22:01:28
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You know, Cloak and Dagger was the last Forgotten Realms 2nd edition sourcebook, and it was published in 2000, so you could argue that 1370 DR is as good a date as any, although I'm not sure exactly how the events in the Planes synch up with the Realms.
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1072 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1072 Posts |
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Shandar The Ashen
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2007 : 22:12:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
Okay I admit that this sounds very interesting. When I am done with all the work in front of me, I will start
making a time line.
Why? Between O Love's Novels Timeline, A Grand History of the Realms, and the other timelines on Brian R James's website (including the excellent A Temporal Chronology of the Primes), what need is there for another timeline? 
I don't need another timeline, I just need someone to tell me what year the Reckoning of Hell occurs in relation to DR and the Realms timeline with some sort of supporting evidence so that I don't make a decision based on my own conclusions and then have totally screwed up chronology once I find out later that I was way off in my calculations.
I've visited all of the Brian R. James links above and searched for any reference to "Hell" and "Asmodeus" but came up with zilch.
I have not read Elminster in Hell, which according to the library list seems to occur in 1372. Has any one read this novel? If so, does it make any reference to the Reckoning? If any of the Lords of the Nine are referenced in the novel, are they pre or post Reckoning?
Thank you again for any efforts on my behalf
Shandar
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"What doesn't kill you only adds to your experience points."
http://adndholdout.blogspot.com |
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turox
Learned Scribe
USA
145 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2007 : 00:40:32
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Found this comment posted by another Scribe on How long was Elminster in Hell?
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
As it was stated on page 1 of the book by the author himself, the novel takes place in the Year of Wild Magic 1372 DR.
Hope that will help you out. |
Turox Antas Dragonslayer -
"People will believe anything they want to believe, or fear to believe."
Wizard's First Rule: Chapter 36, Page #397, US Hard Cover (revealed by Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander).
Explanation by Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander: "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. People’s heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool."
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Shandar The Ashen
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2007 : 02:40:01
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quote:
Originally posted by turox
Found this comment posted by another Scribe on How long was Elminster in Hell?
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
As it was stated on page 1 of the book by the author himself, the novel takes place in the Year of Wild Magic 1372 DR.
Hope that will help you out.
Well, it doesn't really help, because as I said in my post, I already knew that the novel takes place in 1372. What I don't know is whether or not the Hell that Elminster is in is set before or after or even during the The Reckoning.
Thanks anyway.
S.
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"What doesn't kill you only adds to your experience points."
http://adndholdout.blogspot.com |
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Shandar The Ashen
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2007 : 05:41:58
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I've found a little more information in the online Planescape Encyclopedia on Planewalker.com. As with anything dealing with infernal creatures, it is somewhat confusing and contradictory. Mostly, I suppose, because each edition has "revamped" Hell for one reason or another.
One the page cited below for the entry on The Reckoning the Planewalkers point out the contradictions in various timelines for the changes in Hell:
* The Dark Eight, who first began to rule after the Reckoning, have "ruled their race for millennia" according to Hellbound: The Blood War, "The Dark of the War," page 18.
* Bel's predecessor (Zariel) "was deposed thousands of years ago" according to Faces of Evil: The Fiends, page 30.
* A Paladin in Hell says only that the present day is "many, many years later."
(http://www.planewalker.com/encyclopedia/encyclopedia.php?intEntryID=3004)
So, it may be impossible to answser the question I've put forward, but it looks like the Reckoning predates, or rather, is backdated to before any 2nd edition materials.
It is all mmore than a little confusing, but that's the way the devils like it.
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"What doesn't kill you only adds to your experience points."
http://adndholdout.blogspot.com |
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boddynock
Learned Scribe
Belgium
258 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2007 : 08:23:53
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wel wel, I see you have the same idea than I. Before my player Evaryan died I had in mind to use "a paladin in hell" when he was on higher level to find his beloved. Now I think the players can doe the same quest just to retreive evaryan's soul back :-)
My players play in 1368, and I don't think using the adventure will change the reign any of the lords of hell. In the story, Asmodeus calls Geryon back for using him in a plot against Levistus. And Levistus is STILL lord of the fifth. :-). just use it, you don't change any plot.
question for Shandar: A paladin in hell is an AD&D adventure. How do you gonna change in to third edition (or if you play 3.5?). ? About the main antagonists Geryan & Amon, you can find their revived stats in the "tome of horror I)
And if you play the adventure before my guys (and one girl :)) will do. Just let me know how the adventure was :)
cheers :) |
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boddynock
Learned Scribe
Belgium
258 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2007 : 08:26:22
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| About the reckoning... just like Shandar told, it happened millenia ago. Moloch and Geryon lose their rulership a long time ago. Only problem could be (not in a paladin in hell) when did Glassya became lord of the sixth (or seventh?) layer? Someone an idea? :) |
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David E
Seeker
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2007 : 08:49:46
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| It doesn't look like there is any official date for the Reckoning in the Realms. And, as you said, the 2e sources contradict themselves on the topic. Following KEJR's advice and and using the real-time/Realms-time conversion, which places the event somewhere around 1370, doesn't sound like it should upset anything canon-wise. |
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Shandar The Ashen
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2007 : 12:40:51
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Thanks to everyone who has chipped in on this. I run a 2nd Edition campaign which is largely figure based. If I don't have the figure I don't run the monster. The whole Reckoning conundrum has arisen as I try to find miniatures (or make them) to represent the Lords of the Nine, since the Lords change and change form before and after the Reckoning.
What I may do is employ that time honored tradition of saying that Planar travel introduces a time stream that moves in different directions and different speeds. This may be a way to introduce an artifact I've been considering that would shift my players around in time on the Prime Material so that they could play classic modules out of chronological continuity, like the Time of Troubles series or Curse of the Azure Bonds. A "Quantum Leap" kind of situation or using time itself like the Demiplane of Dread.
I may also say that the arch-devils who have been transformed can still take their 1E forms, they just better not get caught by Asmodeus doing so. Or that they create the illusion of their old traditional forms for mortals adventuring in Hell so as not to confuse or appear weak to the outsider. Like the greys appearing as Viking Gods in Star Gate SG 1.
OK. I've clearly wandered off topic here now. But I feel better about trying to figure out a solution that works for my campaign which might or might contradict canon. Still playing 2E, I probably shouldn't have worried about that any way, but I'm obsessive compulsive about this stuff.
I was just wondering if any of it had been mentioned specifically in something like one of the Novels or official Realms products.
Don't you wish you had a red phone to Ed Greenwood the way General Hammond has to the President? (Someone loaned me 8 seasons of SG1 DVDs and I've already watched seasons 1-3 in the last week. And yes, my wife is out of town, hence the window of opportunity for non-stop TV and D&D research.) |
"What doesn't kill you only adds to your experience points."
http://adndholdout.blogspot.com |
Edited by - Shandar The Ashen on 26 Jan 2007 12:44:46 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2007 : 18:10:44
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I have Guide to Hell and just finished Elminster in Hell this morning. This is where it gets even MORE confusing -
Geryon is Asmodeus's right-hand man in the novel. He is referred to as "Geryon, Overduke of Hell.
Before Reckoning Geryon = lord of the 5th layer
After Reckoning Geryon = Outcast nobody
Since he was NEVER Overduke of Hell before the Reckoning,, then we must assume that he somehow got this title sometime after the Reckoning.
There is a confusing piece of Lore that clearly states that Geryon was one of the two lords that were punished after the Reckoning, but Geryon was the only one who remaned loyal to Asmodeus during that time. I suppose, in Hell, Loyalty is frowned upon. Perhaps Asmodeus punished Geryon for having such a 'noble' trait, and later fogave him his 'sin'?
Either way, Geryon is large and in charge in the novel El in Hell (DR1372). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Jan 2007 18:17:42 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2007 : 00:15:57
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Is it possible that the Reckoning never happened in the Realms version of the Nine Hells?
Consider that Ed's original write up in Dragon of the heirarchy of Hell was prior to the Reckoning, and consider also that the Nine Hells of the Realms is a different place (although similar) from the Baator of the Great Wheel. Are we sure if Ed ever adopted the changes made by the Reckoning to his vision of the Hells?
If the Nine Hells interloped into the Realms at some point in the distant past, they might have begun as a clone (or perhaps an avatar) of the Great Wheel Hells at the time, but since then their histories could have diverged greatly from each other and the Reckoning may have even been avoided or have occured differently in the Realms timeline. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2007 : 00:50:49
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Not that I'm an expert of any kind, in any way -- I'm just speaking as a fellow DM who's run into something like this.
It might be worth noting that time runs demonstrably differently in different planes than in the prime material, and even differently from layer to layer of one of the outer planes. So it's entirely possible that the Reckoning may have happened at any point in the known timeline.
Translation: If you don't establish a satisfying timeframe, just set it whenever you want. 
Just my two cents.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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createvmind
Senior Scribe
490 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2014 : 17:01:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have Guide to Hell and just finished Elminster in Hell this morning. This is where it gets even MORE confusing -
Geryon is Asmodeus's right-hand man in the novel. He is referred to as "Geryon, Overduke of Hell.
Before Reckoning Geryon = lord of the 5th layer
After Reckoning Geryon = Outcast nobody
Since he was NEVER Overduke of Hell before the Reckoning,, then we must assume that he somehow got this title sometime after the Reckoning.
There is a confusing piece of Lore that clearly states that Geryon was one of the two lords that were punished after the Reckoning, but Geryon was the only one who remaned loyal to Asmodeus during that time. I suppose, in Hell, Loyalty is frowned upon. Perhaps Asmodeus punished Geryon for having such a 'noble' trait, and later fogave him his 'sin'?
Either way, Geryon is large and in charge in the novel El in Hell (DR1372).
Maybe he is a replacement with same name similar to how the Dark Eight are replaced. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2014 : 17:21:40
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*Raises fist at creativemind* I'm the thread resurrection master around these parts bub.
Anyway, there's no official placement of the Reckoning in a timeline. I would place it around 1370-2. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2014 : 01:46:56
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It was a D&D Core Event. If it was placed in the Realms, it would occur whenever you wanted. There will never be a "canon" date for something like this. Can't believe I didn't tell the OP this at the time.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2014 : 15:49:26
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This is complicated because the details on it came out when FR was wholly part of the Great Wheel, but since then FR has gone through two and potentially three cosmology changes so... yeah it's a continuity headache.
If you're using FR (as I do) within the Great Wheel, the Reckoning happened multiple thousands of years in the past. The exact figure isn't pinned down because the diabolic sources routinely "revise" their history in order to be most politically sensitive to the current powers that be in Baator's hierarchy. The 'loth records on the matter would be ironically more accurate, but good luck getting a hold of them.
As for Geryon's place in Elminster in Hell, that's a tricky one without having Ed's input on it, since the original Geryon was an outcast at that time. Either it's a minor continuity issue, or as I'd like to think, it's a case of another devil named Geryon (which isn't out of character in Hell given the habit of the members of the Dark 8 being murdered and replaced by their killer who promptly take their name and officially nothing has changed in the hierarchy). |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2014 : 06:33:45
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| What I'd like to know is what Bel was doing while Mystra invaded Baator. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2014 : 18:31:42
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
What I'd like to know is what Bel was doing while Mystra invaded Baator.
Suddenly remembering pressing business on some deeper layer that absolutely could not be delayed any longer  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2014 : 20:45:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
What I'd like to know is what Bel was doing while Mystra invaded Baator.
Suddenly remembering pressing business on some deeper layer that absolutely could not be delayed any longer
Or making popcorn and getting a comfortable seat on the sidelines.  |
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Need DR date for the Reckoning of Hell
out.