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Brenigin
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
117 Posts |
 Posted - 28 May 2006 : 10:47:12
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I'm helping a player work out the background for a new character. He wants to play an Elf Paladin, and we've decided that this would work if his lawful side came about as a rejection of the Retreat, seeing it as abandonment of the elves dwarf and human friends.
He would still worship Correllon Larethian, but I thought it would be interesting to have him also pay homage to Lathander, seeing his Renewal aspect as a way to bring about a new, stronger alliance between elves and humans that harked back to the days of Myth Drannor.
I could see the character serving the Order of the Aster, attempting to prove through his deeds that the elves DO care about humankind, while staying firm in his belief that he is doing Correllon's work and furthering the destiny of elfkind.
So - would you allow this in your campaign, if the player roleplayed it appropriately?
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 11:12:50
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| I do not see much of a problem with honor to two deities, one would have to be patron and dogma followed of that one, but the dogma of the second could be secondary guide. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 12:27:16
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Well, remember that most people in the Realms can worship one or two deities... or even an entire pantheon on a given day. And we've seen examples of divine casters who receive their spells from two different deities.
Salyndra Shaern who is a female half-elf cleric and worships both Oghma and Corellon equally.
Myrmeen Lhal, the ranger and ruler of Arabel, worships both Mielikki and Tymora.
And there is also Larajin -- from Heirs of Prophecy by Lisa Smedman. She worships both Hanali and Sune.
I'm not really sure how it would work mechanics wise (since mechanics aren't my strong point)... but there are definitely lore examples of divine casters worshipping more than one deity.
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Edited by - The Sage on 28 May 2006 12:29:19 |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 12:50:35
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As Finder points out in Finder's Bane, deities are strengthened every time someone mentions their name or praises them. Of course the priests who are dedicated to them using their name invoke more power.
Performing the appropriate ritual and gestures when praying for a divine spell makes it easier for the deity to give away some of it's power (as it happens almost automatically). By asking for a spell in a different way, the deity has to concentrate on granting the spell, and may not notice or respond at all.
So it follows then that by invoking prayers to both gods, that both gods are strengthened. Similarly by performing the appropriate casting techniques for each spell (for whichever deity), then each god would have no troubles granting the spell. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 13:27:25
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Although I agree that a divine spellcaster might worship two deities, I think that in "game terms" he/she should select one as his/her patron deity. However, there are exceptions to this in established Realmslore. An agreement between two deities might be possible.
Corellon and Lathander are deities of two different pantheons, and I would not let any PC paladin to receive spells from both of them. Certainly a paladin might respect and revere the other one also, but I would insist that the player choose one as the patron deity for the paladin. For example, a character who is allowed to be a paladin of both Lathander and Corellon might be able to abuse prestige classes by multiclassing into Champion of Corellon and/or Sunlord, or taking Initiate of Lathander-feat. Etcetera. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 14:55:21
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| As The Sage pointed out Larajin -- from Heirs of Prophecy by Lisa Smedman worships **and recieves divine spells from** both Hanali and Sune. When she casts spells from Sune rose petals appear and when she casts spells from Hanali the scent of lilacs or somesuch fills the air. Something like that anyway. I highly recommend the novel. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 15:24:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Corellon and Lathander are deities of two different pantheons, and I would not let any PC paladin to receive spells from both of them.
Really, that wouldn't matter.
Ed told us back in May '04 that most races can freely worship outside their traditional racial pantheons provided there's a valid reason for it -- in other words... pantheons and the deities associated with them *aren't* racially specific.
And as we've seen in some of the lore in 1e/2e/3e FR... most races have groups that have, on occasion, worshipped deities outside their more traditional racial pantheons. Demihuman Deities notes several examples of humans worshipping dwarven deities and dwarves worshipping gnomish and elven deities for example. As well as for two of the characters I mentioned above.
So, the elven paladin in Brenigin's example can also worship Lathander in this case... since it agrees with what Ed has said in the past about such a concept.
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Edited by - The Sage on 28 May 2006 15:27:37 |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 15:28:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
As The Sage pointed out Larajin -- from Heirs of Prophecy by Lisa Smedman worships **and recieves divine spells from** both Hanali and Sune. When she casts spells from Sune rose petals appear and when she casts spells from Hanali the scent of lilacs or somesuch fills the air. Something like that anyway. I highly recommend the novel.
True enough... but these are two deities of the same (elven) pantheon. I think it would a bit hard to believe that a divine spellcaster would receive spells from two separate deities of different pantheons. |
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-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 17:28:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
As The Sage pointed out Larajin -- from Heirs of Prophecy by Lisa Smedman worships **and recieves divine spells from** both Hanali and Sune. When she casts spells from Sune rose petals appear and when she casts spells from Hanali the scent of lilacs or somesuch fills the air. Something like that anyway. I highly recommend the novel.
True enough... but these are two deities of the same (elven) pantheon. I think it would a bit hard to believe that a divine spellcaster would receive spells from two separate deities of different pantheons.
No they aren't. Hanali is elven pantheon, Sune is human pantheon. :)
Plus, as was pointed out, there are other clerics that worship dieties outside of thier pantheons and receives spells from both of those deities. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 19:51:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
As The Sage pointed out Larajin -- from Heirs of Prophecy by Lisa Smedman worships **and recieves divine spells from** both Hanali and Sune. When she casts spells from Sune rose petals appear and when she casts spells from Hanali the scent of lilacs or somesuch fills the air. Something like that anyway. I highly recommend the novel.
True enough... but these are two deities of the same (elven) pantheon. I think it would a bit hard to believe that a divine spellcaster would receive spells from two separate deities of different pantheons.
No they aren't. Hanali is elven pantheon, Sune is human pantheon. :)
Plus, as was pointed out, there are other clerics that worship dieties outside of thier pantheons and receives spells from both of those deities.
And I am a complete idiot  
Of course Sune and Hanali are from different pantheons. When I read 'Sune', I thought 'Aerdrie', so that was why I wrote that. My apologies.
Still, my opinion is that I would not allow divine spellcasters to worship and receive spells from two (or more) patrons in my campaigns. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Brenigin
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
117 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 20:07:46
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| Thanks for your thoughts, all. I knew of other examples, such as Larajin, the Dwarf Paladin in Champions of Valor of Gorm Gulthym(sp?) who serves Helm, etc. I wanted to make sure, however, that there was no obscure titbit or lore I'd missed saying Lathander and Correllon hated each other or some such :) |
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Vainelus
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 20:16:24
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For a paladin, it does not matter mechanically if they receive spells from two deities, since that does not change the spells available to them in the least. I would allow it in my game, it could provide interesting roleplay opportunities, just think about a disagreement between some Lathander clerics and Correllon clerics, and your paladin having to pick sides. Now the numbers could get tricky for a cleric considering the domains and initiate feats.
On a side note, I do not know if you have read the Last Mythal series, or not but your players paladin sounds ripe for working with the Crusaders.
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 20:32:09
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Well, remember that most people in the Realms can worship one or two deities... or even an entire pantheon on a given day. And we've seen examples of divine casters who receive their spells from two different deities.
Salyndra Shaern who is a female half-elf cleric and worships both Oghma and Corellon equally.
Myrmeen Lhal, the ranger and ruler of Arabel, worships both Mielikki and Tymora.
And there is also Larajin -- from Heirs of Prophecy by Lisa Smedman. She worships both Hanali and Sune.
I'm not really sure how it would work mechanics wise (since mechanics aren't my strong point)... but there are definitely lore examples of divine casters worshipping more than one deity.
Problem is of the 3 you mentioned, two are Half-Elves that worship an Elven and a Human diety. Myrmeen Lhal is the only exception to that, and she is following a Nature Goddess, and the Goddess of Luck, only a fool would ignore Luck.
I could definately see it if the character was a Half-Elf, a possible thing to do is use one of the Variant Paladins from Unearthed Arcana or Dragon #310. Both of which have Chaotic Good Paladins. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 20:35:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Vainelus
For a paladin, it does not matter mechanically if they receive spells from two deities, since that does not change the spells available to them in the least. I would allow it in my game, it could provide interesting roleplay opportunities, just think about a disagreement between some Lathander clerics and Correllon clerics, and your paladin having to pick sides. Now the numbers could get tricky for a cleric considering the domains and initiate feats.
On a side note, I do not know if you have read the Last Mythal series, or not but your players paladin sounds ripe for working with the Crusaders.
It does matter, because it can open up additional Prestige Classes, and there are also the Initiate Feats which open up one's spell list and gives additional abilities. |
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nb_nmare
Acolyte
United Kingdom
32 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 21:32:41
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| Don't forget that it also affects what domains they can chose from. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 21:33:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
And I am a complete idiot
Of course Sune and Hanali are from different pantheons. When I read 'Sune', I thought 'Aerdrie', so that was why I wrote that. My apologies.
Still, my opinion is that I would not allow divine spellcasters to worship and receive spells from two (or more) patrons in my campaigns.
Grin. :)
And well, your call but in canon it's allowed and so I'd allow it if it made sense to do so. :)
I really feel bad for the cleric that gets his spells from Cyric and Shar, he's gotta be insane. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 21:35:16
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
It does matter, because it can open up additional Prestige Classes, and there are also the Initiate Feats which open up one's spell list and gives additional abilities.
I'd say that the character can choose from amongst the domains of the two deities, but cannot dedicate themself enough to either deity to qualify for initiate feats or prestige classes. If they take either, they must rededicate themself to that deity through the process of deity changing detailed in the FRCS and PHBII. |
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nb_nmare
Acolyte
United Kingdom
32 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 21:41:16
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| Alternatively, you could create a new "Initiate of X and Y" feat, perhaps with half the spells from each of the two regular Initiate feats. After all, there's already the "Initiate of Nature" (combining spells from Eldath, Mielikki and Silvanus) feat in PGtF. |
Edited by - nb_nmare on 28 May 2006 21:41:45 |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 21:59:51
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quote:
Originally posted by nb_nmare
Alternatively, you could create a new "Initiate of X and Y" feat, perhaps with half the spells from each of the two regular Initiate feats. After all, there's already the "Initiate of Nature" (combining spells from Eldath, Mielikki and Silvanus) feat in PGtF.
This one is a bit tricky - Initiate of Elven Dawn? Dawn and Elven Arts? Elven Warfare and Dawn? Sunny warfare? Initiate of Corellathander? Lathcorellon?  |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 22:40:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
It does matter, because it can open up additional Prestige Classes, and there are also the Initiate Feats which open up one's spell list and gives additional abilities.
I'd say that the character can choose from amongst the domains of the two deities, but cannot dedicate themself enough to either deity to qualify for initiate feats or prestige classes. If they take either, they must rededicate themself to that deity through the process of deity changing detailed in the FRCS and PHBII.
What would your take be on the triadic knight from p124 of powers of PoF.
It seems that character in this case would receive the benefits from all three gods equally. The answer here probably lies in that they are all within the same pantheon.
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Edited by - scererar on 28 May 2006 22:48:35 |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 01:33:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I really feel bad for the cleric that gets his spells from Cyric and Shar, he's gotta be insane. :)
The question is whether they were insane before they started praying to Cyric and Shar, or after. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Brenigin
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
117 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 02:42:47
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I imagine the character would have Correllon as their patron (goal is to take the Champion of Correllon Larethian PrC from Races of the Wild) but see Lathander as a shining example of how there is always scope to refresh and renew one's view of the world (as oppossed to the quasi-xenophobic nature of Sun Elves in particular). It's a clumsy example, but it would be a little like a Muslim working for a Christian charity - first priority to "do good", second priority to get some 2-way understanding happening. Wearing a Red Cross armband doesn't make him any less a Muslim, yet he still represents an ostensibly Christian organisation. And here should end the discussion of real world religion.
The Crusade from the Last Mythal will definitely play a part in this character's future. After all, wasn't Lathander one of the primary human gods worshipped in Myth Drannor.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 03:24:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Reefy
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I really feel bad for the cleric that gets his spells from Cyric and Shar, he's gotta be insane. :)
The question is whether they were insane before they started praying to Cyric and Shar, or after.
Even so, if he wasn't before that, he has to be now. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 07:15:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenigin
I imagine the character would have Correllon as their patron (goal is to take the Champion of Correllon Larethian PrC from Races of the Wild) but see Lathander as a shining example of how there is always scope to refresh and renew one's view of the world (as oppossed to the quasi-xenophobic nature of Sun Elves in particular). It's a clumsy example, but it would be a little like a Muslim working for a Christian charity - first priority to "do good", second priority to get some 2-way understanding happening. Wearing a Red Cross armband doesn't make him any less a Muslim, yet he still represents an ostensibly Christian organisation. And here should end the discussion of real world religion.
The Crusade from the Last Mythal will definitely play a part in this character's future. After all, wasn't Lathander one of the primary human gods worshipped in Myth Drannor.
IMHO I would not let a character worship two deities, if his goal is to take any prestige class levels (Champion of Corellon, Divine Champion, Dweomerkeeper, Sunlord, etcetera). Taking one of those Prestige Classes means to be a devoted follower, who worships ONLY the deity that grants the class.
It would be too easy to abuse the rules ("Hey, I want to be a Champion of Corellon and Forest Master of Silvanus... both are nature-related prestige classes, right?") |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 07:25:01
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I still disagree.
I'd allow it if it made sense to do so since FR deities are not that petty except for a few that are, and the deities allow divine casters to worship outside of thier pantheons and have more then one deity. Also some of those deities even jointly grant spells to thier divine casters, as we said earlier. Also remember that FR isn't monothestic, it's polythestic and on any given day a divine caster can send prayers to up to ten or more deities, depending on the situation. (And yes, I probably butchered those spellings. :))
And so it's not out of the oridinary to find a divine caster of Corellon also praying to Tymora and Erevan for luck, Sehanine and Selune for moon influence, Mystra just because she's also a goddess of magic, Umberlee if you are about to sail or Valkur for the same reason, Lathander for dawn, etc.
Now mechanically, I suppose it would be different but I always run my games as the rules are guidelines and they rules don't rule me, I rule the rules. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 29 May 2006 07:58:17 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 07:44:29
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Agreed.
I'd allow it since what Ed has previously told us about mortals being able to worship deities outside their traditional racial pantheons is pretty much what I would've done for my games if a player came to me with such an idea before I'd read what Ed said.
Larajin, as I mentioned earlier, is a perfect example of what Kuje is talking about just above -- with a divine caster being able to worship two deities... neither connected by pantheon... and receiving divine magic for her spells from either deity.
As for the rules issue... well, like I said above, I'm not sure how I'd do it myself, but I've always tended toward the same "rules as guidelines" approach as just mentioned. So, I guess I'd take it from there and go with what works for *my* FR.
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Brenigin
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
117 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 09:26:14
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| Just to clarify one point, he will pay homage to Latahnder, but not worship him on the level of a patron deity. He will recieve no spells from him, not take a lebel of Morninglord etc. He is a Paladin of Corellon (some would argue this is not allowed but that's another argument :)) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 09:29:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenigin
Just to clarify one point, he will pay homage to Latahnder, but not worship him on the level of a patron deity. He will recieve no spells from him, not take a lebel of Morninglord etc. He is a Paladin of Corellon (some would argue this is not allowed but that's another argument :))
Then even moreso, there is no reason to disallow this because this happens in FR on a daily basis. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 09:34:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenigin
Just to clarify one point, he will pay homage to Latahnder, but not worship him on the level of a patron deity. He will recieve no spells from him, not take a lebel of Morninglord etc. He is a Paladin of Corellon (some would argue this is not allowed but that's another argument :))
Well then, there really isn't that much of a problem since -- as several of us have already said -- most races in the Realms pay homage to more than one deity regularly. And it's backed up by Ed as well... so really, there's no potential issue with canon facts or Realmslore with this .
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Edited by - The Sage on 29 May 2006 09:37:24 |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 20:36:03
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Brenigin
Just to clarify one point, he will pay homage to Latahnder, but not worship him on the level of a patron deity. He will recieve no spells from him, not take a lebel of Morninglord etc. He is a Paladin of Corellon (some would argue this is not allowed but that's another argument :))
Well then, there really isn't that much of a problem since -- as several of us have already said -- most races in the Realms pay homage to more than one deity regularly. And it's backed up by Ed as well... so really, there's no potential issue with canon facts or Realmslore with this .
Agreed, it would have been an entirely different issue if he actually worshipped Lathander as opposed to just lip-service.
btw What type of Elf is this Paladin going to be? Sun Elf, Moon Elf, something else? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 21:45:59
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
btw What type of Elf is this Paladin going to be? Sun Elf, Moon Elf, something else?
Sun elf would be appropriate -- as I recall, they already have a tendency to like Lathander.  |
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Worshipping Correllon AND Lathander
