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Pardan
Acolyte
31 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Feb 2006 : 20:17:02
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A few days agowe played a little adventure near Waterdeep. The village we were sent to was a trading post and we had to investigate the theft of some valuable goods. In our group was a dwarven paladin of Clangeddin who asked about what would be done with the thieves. That would be uncertain was the answer. Since there were regularly little acts of thievery, something as big as this one has never happened before. We were also informed that there is a court consisting of all the merchants of the city. The paladin than brags that now with him arrived there would be someone who would be able to deal out justice.
During the night we found a halfling bum (I hope this word is okay - I`m not a native english speaker), a child of a nearby gypsy community. He just searched for a dry place to sleep. The paladin and (at the next morning) the shopkeeper admonished him but let him go.
Later we found out that again some goods were missing and some of us - including the paladin - were going to search the halfling. They found him in another shop were he were hiding. He had pocketed some (not much) tabac and declared it as "theft of food" (I found no better translation but I hope you understand what I mean).
To come to the point the paladin cut off one of the child's hands for this little theft - altough neither the community was not a dwarven one nor he had permission or sth like that from the local court or anyone else there.
The player argued this would be okay for a fantasy middle-age setting like the Forgotten Realms. So, now I ask you: What do you think about this? Especially given the fact that he is a) a dwarf and b) a paladin....?
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Do not knock on Death's door - ring the bell twice and run away.
He hates that. |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2006 : 20:54:32
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It depends on the style of the setting and the campaign really.
In my homebrew world (a dark and rainy place) I enjoy portraying LG clerics of Athene as fascist hypocrites. In a setting like that the paladin's actions are appropriate.
In faerun however, I think "good" is more about heart, good intentions and mercy, and I'd say the paladin's god would watch the paladin closely, test him, and possibly strip him of his powers.
The player can argue all that he/she wants, but YOU set the tone of the campaing. Some of the players sometimes argue "back then..." as if we were talking about an actual time and place, when we're really talking about a fantasy setting, where historical references only can help you so far 
Hope this helps. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2006 : 21:18:56
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One needs to look at least in part to the dogma of Clangeddin when judging the actions of any paladin that serves the deity. A quick search does not indicate any reference to thieft. Clangeddin is a War deity with concerns about justice. Clangeddin "He is more similar to Tyr the God of Justice and Torm the True among the humans than the war god Tempus, for Clangeddin teaches that a battle must be just and a triumph obtained through valor or nothing is gained."
It strikes me that quick "justice" might not be aproved of by the Paladin's deity, but to a certain sense the DM has to decide if thr Paladin failed to act in a lawful good maner in acordence with deity and gane deffinitions of both. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2006 : 21:25:06
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Let's look at the two sides of the Paladin persona as seperate things.
First Lawful. What the Paladin did was lawful from his point of view and society. However it as you say was 'not' within the law of the local area, under which the boy was. In this sense he should be punished, perhaps not by his deity as his intent was good, but by the local law authorities. Doubtful there would be any serious conviction or anythign, but it would serve as a good slap on the wrists, and a good learning experience for the Paladin to respect local laws.
Next is Good. Arguably that was not a good thing to do, as the Paladin was hardly smiting some serious evil there, and there would be easier ways to teach the young one a lesson (donating money himself so that the boy didn't have to thieve for example would be a great Paladin response, especially as even a lvl 1 character is pretty well off compared to a vagabond).
Even so, I think it sounds like a minor lapse, or a misjudgement and not a serious brooking of faith. The Paladin needs to learn he has probably made the wrong decision, but I don't think the breach was serious enough to warrant a deities intercession. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2006 : 21:57:48
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Err I do not believe a Paladin (which is a fantsy creation, there is no Real World historical creature) would not be expected to follow rather brutal Real World laws.
The Paladin has duties which include defending the poor and weak.
To by own actions to lead by example a Lawful Good way of life.
The Paladin of course is not expected to adhere to injust laws (the most common examples are slavery, non use of poison, deception).
There is not much balor in cutting off a hand, less so if it went against local custom.
As for when a deity or even Priest should interfer as per rules it is automatic if a Paladin does a Chaotic or Evil action.
The only evidence we have of a crime is petty theift, not the major crimes that have occured. The halfling more of less stole to eat (a little less as tabac is not eaten, but could be sold for food) according to the confession. This of a society of Just laws from all indications, that the Paladin failed to respect at all. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2006 : 21:59:32
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| I agree with Kaladorm and Kentinal. That's a harsh enforcement of a law the paladin is not authorized to enforce, and it's such a minor offense. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2006 : 02:03:31
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I think had the paladin drug the urchin to the victim of the theft and made him admit his wrongdoing, or turned him over to authorities, etc. It would have been fine. I don't think he could ignore it, but I also don't think that the sentence was warrented.
It sounds like perhaps cutting off hands for theft is part of dwarven culture in your campaign. I would be interested in finding this out. If it is, I still think this would be a violation, since it is incumbent upon the dwarf to know the laws of the lands that he is in. A dwarf in a land where this is common that is a theif knows what he is risking, and so its less of an issue . . . a halfling that has no idea what might happen and only knows local laws . . . that casts the dwarf in a more tyrannical light (MY cultures laws should ALWAYS take precedence). |
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Pardan
Acolyte
31 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2006 : 07:49:59
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| No, cutting off a hand is not part of dwarven culture...serious offenders are normally exiled from their clan...most dwarves are Lawful Good(!) after all. |
Do not knock on Death's door - ring the bell twice and run away.
He hates that. |
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Vvornth
Acolyte
Sweden
48 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2006 : 16:30:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Err I do not believe a Paladin (which is a fantsy creation, there is no Real World historical creature)
Now this is just plain wrong. Paladins were some of the most esteemed knights pledged to different orders during the middle ages. |
It's good to be king |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2006 : 17:27:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Vvornth
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Err I do not believe a Paladin (which is a fantsy creation, there is no Real World historical creature)
Now this is just plain wrong. Paladins were some of the most esteemed knights pledged to different orders during the middle ages.
It realy should not be a debate, the code of a Middle Age Holy Knight hardly reflects the code of a Paladin.
The closest mythical examples of Paladins are Knights of the Round Table, and the 12 Knights of Charlemagne. Oh Knights in general had a code of conduct, which only extended to the rules of combat between them and respect for their betters, the Nobles, etc. Few Knights had any care about the common folk at all. In battle they would ride over foomen with little concern about a fair fight or even if the Knights were fighting for a just cause. The Crusaders in the Holy wars committed many hat in modern trems would be called war crimes. The best of course was the Fourth Crusade (actual there were thousans, however only the real big ones got numbers) where the leaders decided that instead of attacking Jerusalem in the hands of Moslems, the leaders decided to attack Constantinople a Christian city because it was easier and success more assured.
Yes there was a code of conduct for Knight vs. Knight fair fight, respect for females of rank, but much of the Code of Chivalry was fiction and had little to do with the common folk at all. A Paladin is held to a much higher standard then the best historical Knight you can find. Even mythical Knights were not much of things like healing and other features of the Paladin archtype. A Paladin is a construct of what the best conduct a Knight could aspire to become and some might have stived for such a goal if they had heard of the rules that a Paladin must follow.
This really should not be a debate and hope I have typed all I need to on this side issue. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2006 : 06:17:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Vvornth
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Err I do not believe a Paladin (which is a fantsy creation, there is no Real World historical creature)
Now this is just plain wrong. Paladins were some of the most esteemed knights pledged to different orders during the middle ages.
<snip>
A Paladin is a construct of what the best conduct a Knight could aspire to become and some might have stived for such a goal if they had heard of the rules that a Paladin must follow.
This really should not be a debate and hope I have typed all I need to on this side issue.
Indeed. The D&D paladin, with his divine magic and code of honor, is an artificial construct. The D&D paladin is based on the romantic ideals of knighthood -- not the reality of it. The middle ages may have had guys called paladins, and some of them may have even been the "knight in shining armor" types, but from what little history I know, I tend to doubt it. Even if I'm wrong, those guys would not be the same as D&D paladins. |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2006 : 12:26:10
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| The other point is that however similar the Realms or any other setting may be to the real Middle Ages, they are not one and the same. To say 'but people always cut off hands in punishment in the real world', is kind of missing the point. It's whether it's what people in the Realms or whatever environment you're playing in that matters. Historical comparisons have a use, certainly, but there is a line between the different worlds. That, and as an historian I feel obliged to point this out, much of what we believe about history in the Middle Ages is based on a lot of theses and guesswork, as evidence is not abundant, and is also likely to contain a large element of bias. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2006 : 12:27:39
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So......elves didn't help in the battle of bosworth field?
you learn something new every day :) |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2006 : 00:35:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Reefy
The other point is that however similar the Realms or any other setting may be to the real Middle Ages, they are not one and the same. To say 'but people always cut off hands in punishment in the real world', is kind of missing the point. It's whether it's what people in the Realms or whatever environment you're playing in that matters. Historical comparisons have a use, certainly, but there is a line between the different worlds. That, and as an historian I feel obliged to point this out, much of what we believe about history in the Middle Ages is based on a lot of theses and guesswork, as evidence is not abundant, and is also likely to contain a large element of bias.
Indeed. I completely agree with this. Ed and the other great sages have pointed out MANY times here at Candlekeep that we should NOT try to compare the Realms with the Middle Ages, or try to draw direct comparisons to Earth cultures (Calimshan = Arabia, etcetera.)
I see the Realms as a bit more sophisticated and advanced than Europe during the Middle Ages. I think that Ed has also tried to drive this point home in all of his novels. It's about small (and even some bigger) details... a few clumsy examples of this might be architecture, clothes (Shimmerweave, anyone?), flushable toilets, recipes, religious issues/habits/beliefs, etcetera. Too many examples to note here. Magic in a High Fantasy Setting tends to influence and advance things a lot, even in issues related to simple everyday life. Not to mention that portals enable stuff and innovations to spread rapidly.
I've had arguments over such things with "history buffs" ("Hey, bookshelves were NOT invented at that time, so how come they exist in your fantasy world?"). *Sigh*
In my gaming group, that paladin would have become an ex-paladin, losing all his class abilities until Clanggedin saw that his "penance time" would be up.
We have a paladin/cleric of Helm, and I think he probably would have paid for all the things that halfling had stolen, and then he would have made him work for every copper piece (either helping at the shop, or working as a servant/henchman for our adventurers). If the halfling was angry or aggressive, the paladin would have take him to the authorities. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Iliphar1
Learned Scribe
Austria
133 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2006 : 11:25:26
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| I can only agree, this act may have been lawful, but definitely not good. I would have expected such a behavious from a bane priest, but not from a paladin! I would make him loose his abilities and try to atone his deed. Only if he is truly sorry he would regain his paladin status - but only if he did some quest for some halfling community to mend his deed. (and learn about differnet cultures!) |
'You see dead bones? ... I see an army!' Ezechiel 37 |
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Vvornth
Acolyte
Sweden
48 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2006 : 17:51:39
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| Of course there's little resemblance between real-world and D&D paladins (heck, that goes for EVERY class) but there is no doubt that they have existed in form and idea. |
It's good to be king |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2006 : 23:26:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Vvornth
Of course there's little resemblance between real-world and D&D paladins (heck, that goes for EVERY class) but there is no doubt that they have existed in form and idea.
I agree whole-heartedly with what Reefy and Kentinal said about this issue. The romantic ideals of knighthood have beem mostly produced by "Arthurian" fiction and the Crusades. It was a shocking truth to me when one of the guys (a historian) in my gaming group told me that Richard Lionheart didn't even speak english, since he was a frenchman (norman knight). He never even bothered to learn it, since english was considered "the language of the lowly peasants".
That is just a small detail, but it changed the way I personally view those highly-romanticed ideals and stories of "paladins and knights in shining armor". It may be true that at some point of time, and to some FEW individuals those ideals may have existed, but I do not think that Templars or any other knightly order either supported or believed in them. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 05:01:22
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ABSOLUTELY he should cut off the guy's hand!
There's no way on the surface of it that a DWARF god would tolerate anything less. Stealing is frowned upon in Dwarven Culture, at the very least from other dwarves.
Now, since food is apparently at a premium, I don't see anything particularly wrong with this action.
Was it brutal?
Yes!
Was it effective?
Yes!
Are you obliged to obey morality as if you lived in the 20th century?
No, unless the character has EXALTED FEATS.
I really don't see any problem with the way the paladin handled this situation.
Especially in a world where a regenerate spell costs no XP and only a few thousand gold.
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 12:54:34
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I would agree with the last two posters only if paladins could be Lawful Neutral. However, the 'good' part of the Lawful Good alignment requirement entails that the paladin will demonstrate a certain modicum of compassion in such situations...
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Edited by - Purple Dragon Knight on 14 Feb 2006 12:55:13 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 16:55:10
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Agrees with most,
Cutting a hand is a bit much for a paladin, especially if there are local laws in place for what happens to thieves. Plus I don't see Clangeddin allowing that. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 21:39:57
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
ABSOLUTELY he should cut off the guy's hand!
There's no way on the surface of it that a DWARF god would tolerate anything less. Stealing is frowned upon in Dwarven Culture, at the very least from other dwarves.
Now, since food is apparently at a premium, I don't see anything particularly wrong with this action.
Was it brutal?
Yes!
Was it effective?
Yes!
Are you obliged to obey morality as if you lived in the 20th century?
No, unless the character has EXALTED FEATS.
I really don't see any problem with the way the paladin handled this situation.
Especially in a world where a regenerate spell costs no XP and only a few thousand gold.
And pray tell me how on Fair Faerun would a thief, who has to steal his food to survive, ever afford a Regeneration spell that costs "only a few thousand gold"? 
Even my 15th level Waterdhavian nobleman character could rarely afford that (unless he took it from the family funds  ) |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Kazzaroth
Learned Scribe
Finland
104 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 21:56:09
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I agree in that point cutting a CHILD'S hand off for petty theivery for food is enough offense for dwarf paladin lose his abilities until Atonement is doned. Paladin's must be strict justice bringers but same time have compassion, altough there are gods which neglect more and less this aspect (Sunite Paladin can be very compassioned beyond point being annoying but same can be said that Tyr paladins lack compassion and are more alwfull and duty bound). But a child is not evil and every paladin, despite their god, must be mercifull on young 'misguided' folk when compared dealing whit adult.
Child likely learn despise ANY dwarf's or paladins (or both) thanks losing a hand in situation whcih was naturall part of halfling's life (stealing food is naturall for halfling, thye ener take more than needed) would make such invidual evil and so henceworth paladin's actions may ahve now sended a innocent soul into darkness (could make intresting quest later years for this dwarf paladin face a halfling villain whom hand he had cutted off and also is reason why he becomed evil can be quite heavy moral weight and guilt). |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 22:36:26
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
ABSOLUTELY he should cut off the guy's hand!
There's no way on the surface of it that a DWARF god would tolerate anything less. Stealing is frowned upon in Dwarven Culture, at the very least from other dwarves.
Are we talking about the same dwarven pantheon? You know, Clanggedin, as in "The Lawful Good God of War, Father of Battle"?
Stealing is frowned upon in many cultures, including dwarven, but I do not seem to recall a single canon source referring to cutting hands for a petty theft.
See my earlier comments on how I personally see that a LG Paladin should have handled this.
quote:
Was it brutal?
Yes!
Was it effective?
Yes!
Brutal and effective, certainly. Was it how a Lawful Good character should have handled it in the D&D setting? Most certainly not... please refer to the Player's Handbook about Alignments.
quote:
Are you obliged to obey morality as if you lived in the 20th century?
No, unless the character has EXALTED FEATS.
I really don't see any problem with the way the paladin handled this situation.
No, you are not obliged to obey morality as if you lived in the 20th century. Just read the rules about alignments when you are creating your character, and try to play him/her by those guidelines presented in the D&D Player's Handbook. I don't see how those Exalted Feats have anything to do with this subject.
Now, I see that a Lawful Evil character might have done what that paladin did. If he was a worshipper/blackguard/cleric of Bane, even more so. Although a worshipper of Bane might wish to please his lord with the halfling's fear before actually chopping the hand off...
Maybe I would even condone such behaviour in a strictly Lawful Neutral society with *extreme* and harsh laws on theft (food and goods are hard to come by, or maybe during truly desperate times, such as a siege).
Maybe that paladin could have also challenged the halfling to a duel, saying "Beat me in a fair (subdual damage) duel, and by Clanggedin, I will pay for all those things you stole!". If the halfling tried to cheat (doing real damage) or escape, MAYBE THEN the paladin could have severed the hand, reasoning this by "You have violated the Sacred Code of Battle, thus offending Clanggedin's Way, and for this you shall lose the use of your sword arm!". That's about the only way that I could even MARGINALLY justify or condone that action. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 22:47:38
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6370 gold pieces is hardly a small cost. An NPC has to get to a rather high level to have that much wealth. It takes a medimun PC to have that much wealth and still be equiped with armor, weapons, etc.
As for FR laws that require the cutting off a hand I am not aware of them, slavery appears more common for evil societies if not killing. Multalation does not fit well into the game rules either.
Nor am I aware that standard Dwarven law rountinely calls for cutting off the hand of a thief.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2006 : 23:41:33
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| Dwarves strike me as a more, exile them from the Clan holdings, cut off from their families kind of folk, rather than a mutilation kind of folk. In which case the dwarf would likely take the little tyke to the authorities. |
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Dart Ambermoon
Learned Scribe
Germany
253 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 22:15:06
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| Really, it was just simply wrong. The Paladin clearly shouldn´t be an instrument of justice, much less punishment unless in an official position. Tht the act was overly harsh and brutal has already been posted so clearly that I have nothing more to add for that. |
~ In Finder I trust, for danger I lust ~ |
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Volo
Seeker
Canada
58 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2006 : 10:42:30
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| I believe the important point here, and one that's been ignored somewhat, is that the dwarf in question HAD NO AUTHORITY in the location wherein he took it upon himself to disconnect the halfling from his hand. As the local authorities were able to take care of the issue at hand, it was the duty of the dwarf to take the offending halfling to the court of merchants, not to take the matter into his own hand (removing). As for the actual act, well, I don't really see where one can come to the conclusion that cutting off a hand is the approprate response to petty theft unless one is Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil, as that is holding the legality of the issue above the justice involved, and that's not compatible with Paladinhood. At least in my opinion. |
Volo's misunderstood. He's not an idiot. He's a FLAMING idiot! |
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GungHo
Seeker
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2006 : 22:04:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Dart Ambermoon
The Paladin clearly shouldn´t be an instrument of justice
I disagree with this as a sweeping statement, though I agree with this in context.
Tyrran Paladins are instruments of "big J" Justice; and what's "little j" justice may differ from town to town. For instance, I don't see a Tyrran Paladin turning over the halfling thief to Zhent or Mulmasterite authorities if he knows that they are going to execute or otherwise maim the halfling for the theft, even if justice according to the laws in Zhentil Keep or Mulmaster would say to do so, as that wouldn't be Just... not in my opinion anyway.
It may seem an unlawful action to subvert the prevailing authority, but I'd say he's probably ok by Tyrran law if he simply had the halfling return the goods and kept everything on the Q-T, if you get my drift. |
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Sgain
Acolyte
Canada
32 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2006 : 06:43:08
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A war god would most likely frown upon any form of theft and I suspect any punishment that wasn't automatic execution would involve some form of maiming the thief to remind/warn others of his crime. Now in terms of this roleplaying session and the player; has he ever before 'acted like the law' or shown any interest in it? If not then I'd say he was acting out of spite rather than as the law.
If the player has been upholding the law all the time during the game then this was most likely him just applying some very nasty quick justice. I think he should have notched the kids ear personally as it would allow the criminal a chance to 'mend his ways' especially since this sounds like the first time the 'bum' was captured.
Its a tough call for the DM, do you punish the PC for going overboard, ignore this issue, or see it as roleplaying?
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How do you see this paladin's decision?
