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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 03 May 2005 : 18:56:34
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A little history here first. In 2nd edition, per Spelljammer and Planescape, FR's solar system was a Crystal Sphere floating within, with the other Prime Crystal Spheres, like Dragonlance, Greyhawk, and others, one infinite Prime Material Plane.
Now 3/3.5, per WOTC's new cosmology ideas, have split the comologies into seperate and different Cosmologies. Greyhawk's cosmology is not FRs and those 2 are not Dragonlances, etc. Each of these cosmologies are also seperate and different from one other, except of course that you can get to them from the Plane of Shadow, or Sigil, or the Staircase. So using that knowledge we know that there are now thousands of infinite Prime Maerial Planes, one for each of the Crystal Spheres that were floating in 2e's one infinite Prime Material.
The debate, on the WOTC boards, of course, now is this: Does the 3/3.5e Prime Materials have Crystal Spheres, since, remember, the Crystal Spheres of 2e are now infinite Prime Material Planes and not enclosed solar systems. If you agree that there should still be Crystal Spheres, what purpose would they serve?
Also all the 3/3.5e lore that has been written about the Prime Material Plane makes no mention of the Crystal Spheres. Especially in Lords of Madness where it mentions Spelljamming by name. It says, "The Prime Material Plane," which refers to Greyhawk's cosmology. It does not say Greyhawk's Crystal Sphere or Greyspace. However this is also related to the Realms because the FRCS mentions Spelljamming and Richard Baker has also said that Spelljamming still exists in some form.
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 03 May 2005 18:57:04
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2005 : 20:28:19
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Opinion? Ok: I don't care.
IMC spelljamming might exist, though at current none of the characters has encountered it, and unless some misfortune befalls me, they will never encounter it to an extent that they might become interested in this Star Wars meets D&D abomination.
Like so many discussions about deities - not the churches/faiths, but the deities themselves - this crystalsphere and spelljamming thingy is academical stuff and I cannot see the value add of it to make my Realms Campaign a better one for the enjoyment of DM and Players.
I'm DM-ing in the Realms to play in the Realms, not to arrange a bus trip for tourists to Greyhawk or Krynn or elsewhere. I might use the 'standard' planes for potential side-trips, or as destinations of portals etc, but that's where it'll end. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2005 : 20:36:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Opinion? Ok: I don't care.
IMC spelljamming might exist, though at current none of the characters has encountered it, and unless some misfortune befalls me, they will never encounter it to an extent that they might become interested in this Star Wars meets D&D abomination.
Like so many discussions about deities - not the churches/faiths, but the deities themselves - this crystalsphere and spelljamming thingy is academical stuff and I cannot see the value add of it to make my Realms Campaign a better one for the enjoyment of DM and Players.
I'm DM-ing in the Realms to play in the Realms, not to arrange a bus trip for tourists to Greyhawk or Krynn or elsewhere. I might use the 'standard' planes for potential side-trips, or as destinations of portals etc, but that's where it'll end.
That's helpful. How about you answer the question then. :) Sorry to sound annoyed but that reply doesn't help. If you don't like it, then cool but that's not what I asked. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2005 : 23:12:13
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Well... The original intent behind the crystal spheres was to allow for things like Krynn's disappearing constellations, without mucking up everything else.
What was never clear to me was how the crystal spheres were considered, in regard to the Prime. Were they like fences, walling off areas of one gigantic Prime, or were they the boundaries of a bunch of individual Primes? (I favor the former, though there are arguments for both).
Either way, their original intent remains a valid one. Moving constellations (and even the world) around could cause some serious effects elsewhere in a galaxy, unless a crystal sphere was there to contain the effects.
Since we still have a need for them to function the way they used to, and since we still have spelljamming, I'd say we still have crystal spheres.
Or, you can go with my gut instinct of chucking 3E cosmology out the window, thus solving the problem quite neatly.  |
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Orog-Hai
Acolyte
6 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2005 : 23:33:45
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| I don't think that crystal spheres exist in 3E. There is simply no need for them to exist. Spelljamming just doesn't fit with the high fantasy stuff. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 00:48:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Orog-Hai
I don't think that crystal spheres exist in 3E. There is simply no need for them to exist. Spelljamming just doesn't fit with the high fantasy stuff.
But there is a need for them to exist (the reasons I cited above), and spelljamming exists, too... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 01:51:43
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This is a very interesting question Kuje. Thanks for bringing it up  .
For me, at its basic heart, the FR cosmology is about adventure. Actually, it is more than that. It is about extended adventure outside the Realms. However, I'm still in a transitional period at the moment, re-defining the Realms cosmology to suit my own personal tastes.
In any of the games I ran in whatever D&D setting, there is still only ONE Material Plane. Each setting floats in its own crystal sphere where they all reside on the same material plane. This is very much how the crystal spheres were originally conceptualised for 2e. Thus, I still allow spelljamming between worl through the phlogiston which still connects to the border ethereal of each and everyt crystal sphere. Further from that also suggests that I still have a new for Wildspace to occupy the inner-system space of each separate system in each crystal sphere. Make no mistake here... an entire collection of planetary systems, nebula, and other outer space phenomenon all reside within each crystal sphere.
Now, as I just indicated, there is only one Material Plane which contains all the crystal spheres of the multiverse. There is only way ethereal plane that connects to every crystal sphere, and there is only one phlogiston that links to every single crystal sphere. At the same time, there is only ONE planar framework for the entire multiverse. I do not have separate cosmologies for each setting -- merely every setting's interpretation of an inner, outer, or transitive plane is their own reflection of a base planar form that actually exists beyond their individuals worlds.
What this means is, while there is a plane known as the Gray Waste, at least to the Hags who rule there, for those in the Realms, they interprete that plane as the Barrens of Doom and Despair. There is however, no Krynnish interpretation for the Gray Waste. Certainly, the outer plane still exists, and it can still be reached from Krynn by either spelljammer or through the application of portal travel. It is just simply not a "recognised" component of the core cosmology for the world of Krynn. Interpretation is the keyword here.
Having said all that, it is my personal opinion that spelljamming still occupies the place it did during much of the 2e format of D&D (or rather AD&D). There is still a Great Wheel, and all the references in 3e source material to such planar locales as the City of Brass, Sigil, and Union are all able to be reached from within each setting so long as these places are "actualised" in the culture understanding of the planar framework for each world.
As for the purpose of each crystal sphere, looking over what I have just written, the crystal sphere would seem to form the boundary of each "universe" of each setting, which each contain hundreds, if not thousands, of galaxies. Each of these crystal sphere "universal islands" reside in a multiverse and linked through a common planar framework and through that, the "plane" of phlogiston which connects to every crystal sphere universe.
And probably not unexpectedly, I still have more to say, but I'm now needed by my algorithmic data structures...  .
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 02:31:46
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| I'm a little curious, Sage... Why do you add so much more to your crystal spheres? And how do you work out the increased size and its effect on travel times? |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 03:18:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Orog-Hai
I don't think that crystal spheres exist in 3E. There is simply no need for them to exist.
This is my stance. In 2e they were balls basically that floated in 1 infinite Prime Material. In 3/3.5e there is no need for the spheres since each cosmology has thier own seperate and different Prime Material. So why should there exist the spheres?
Others disagree and say that they should exist even though each setting now has it's own Material Plane. Grayhawk has its own Material Plane. Dragonlance has it's own Material Plane. Etc.
Why keep the spheres then? There's no point to having them.
Again I'm looking for canon answers. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 04 May 2005 03:30:40 |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 04:06:00
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Again I'm looking for canon answers. :)
The history of the Forgotten Realms is tied to Crystal Spheres, Spelljamming, and Wildspace. Please read Powers & Pantheons p. 94 One might dismiss this source because it's 2nd-Edition, but why dismiss *the* definitive account of the arrival of the Sumerian and Egyptian pantheons in Realmspace? |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
Edited by - Brian R. James on 04 May 2005 04:06:51 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 04:10:00
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by Orog-Hai
I don't think that crystal spheres exist in 3E. There is simply no need for them to exist.
This is my stance. In 2e they were balls basically that floated in 1 infinite Prime Material. In 3/3.5e there is no need for the spheres since each cosmology has thier own seperate and different Prime Material. So why should there exist the spheres?
Others disagree and say that they should exist even though each setting now has it's own Material Plane. Grayhawk has its own Material Plane. Dragonlance has it's own Material Plane. Etc.
Why keep the spheres then? There's no point to having them.
Again I'm looking for canon answers. :)
What about what I brought up? The original intent was to allow major cosmic things like disappearing constellations. If a constellation disappeared in an actual galaxy, the gravitational forces would be thrown all out of whack -- and even more so when it reappeared. Granted, making all settings their own Prime mitigates that, but even with that, your universe could still be screwed up by something like that. Do it enough and it could have an effect on your solar system, and thus your world.
Actually, the more I think about it, the more it seems to me that the whole "spelljamming still exists" thing is a huge contradiction with the new cosmology. One of the points of spelljamming was to allow non-planar travel between the settings. Now, it's impossible to do that. But spelljamming still exists...
For me, it's another reason to ignore the old cosmology. I didn't need another reason, but hey, thanks!
(The new cosmology also invalidates the backstory of at least one established Realms character, too. How could Jasmine's parents have spelljammed from Krynn to Toril, if they exist on separate, infinite Primes?) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 04:14:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Realmslore
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Again I'm looking for canon answers. :)
The history of the Forgotten Realms is tied to Crystal Spheres, Spelljamming, and Wildspace. Please read Powers & Pantheons p. 94 One might dismiss this source because it's 2nd-Edition, but why dismiss *the* definitive account of the arrival of the Sumerian and Egyptian pantheons in Realmspace?
I should have said I'm looking for canon 3/3.5e answers. I know how it works in 2e. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 04:19:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What about what I brought up? The original intent was to allow major cosmic things like disappearing constellations. If a constellation disappeared in an actual galaxy, the gravitational forces would be thrown all out of whack -- and even more so when it reappeared. Granted, making all settings their own Prime mitigates that, but even with that, your universe could still be screwed up by something like that. Do it enough and it could have an effect on your solar system, and thus your world.
Actually, the more I think about it, the more it seems to me that the whole "spelljamming still exists" thing is a huge contradiction with the new cosmology. One of the points of spelljamming was to allow non-planar travel between the settings. Now, it's impossible to do that. But spelljamming still exists...
For me, it's another reason to ignore the old cosmology. I didn't need another reason, but hey, thanks!
(The new cosmology also invalidates the backstory of at least one established Realms character, too. How could Jasmine's parents have spelljammed from Krynn to Toril, if they exist on separate, infinite Primes?)
I agree with you about how it invalidates things but the whole FR cosmology change invalidates a lot of things.
However, we are discussing 3/3.5's FR cosmology in the original WOTC thread. So keeping in mind how the new cosmologies are then what use are the crystal spheres within FR's Material Plane? This Material Plane was basically the Sphere of 2e. But people want to swear up and down that FR's new Material Plane still contains Crystal Spheres. I continue to say that there's no point for them to exist since the Sphere of 2e is now a whole infinite Material Plane.
Further evidence shows that Greyhawk's Sphere of 2e is now also a infinite Material Plane because of Lords of Madness, page 6. I'm carrying this bit of text over to FR's Material Plane even though they are seperate and different but both are infinite and both are Material Planes.
"However, the Material Plane is indeed an infinite plane. It is filled with countless worlds, so inconceivably far removed from one another that only the most powerful of wizards can hope to travel from world to world. Each of these Material Plane worlds possesses its own unique conditions, and some of these distant worlds nourish strange and inimical forms of life. Aberrations form the remote reaches of the Material Plane come from worlds such as these, places stranger and more menacing than all but the most feasome Outer Planes.
"Because these far worlds are still part of the Material Plane it is possible to reach them via greater teleport, teleport circle, and similiar magic. In fact, it is possible for vessals with the proper magic to voyage between the worlds without any sort of teleportation. Flying ships (sometimes known as spelljammers) can reach the moon(s), nearby planets, or possibly even the worlds of other stars altogether. Journeying to a nearby world, whether is it the moon of the characters' own native world or a different planet in its own right, might require anything from a few hours to months or even years of star-sailing."
There's no mention of Spheres. Also Greyspace from 2e lists no celestial body within it's Sphere that takes years to get to.
Of course the main poster that wants to argue believes that the Crystal Spheres of 2e were planes themselves. And he has admited that doesn't own a lot of the 3/3.5e lore. Where do these people come from? |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 04 May 2005 04:35:59 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 05:39:59
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I can see the argument that the spheres are the planes... Sort of. Like I said, one of my ponderings was whether or not the sphere was also the planar boundary...
I honestly don't see how we can not have the spheres, even if they've not been mentioned. There's no other way to have the cosmos change in one setting and not have it have an effect on the other settings, unless those settings were millions of light-years apart -- but that can't be the case, since it's possible to spelljam from world to world in months. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 05:52:44
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
I continue to say that there's no point for them to exist since the Sphere of 2e is now a whole infinite Material Plane.
Well, in that particular regard, I would have to agree with both Wooly, and you as well Kuje. Technically and canonically, there is no longer an actual "place" for the concept of the crystal sphere to exist in any 3e setting.
The overall structure that now suggests that each setting itself is a infinite material plane of its own has indeed invalidated any "mechanical" need for spelljamming. But what about the element of storytelling that is so important for good campaign enjoyment?
It is a justified position, supported now by numerous canon references, that the "need" for spelljamming has been somewhat reduced, but that shouldn't stop a DM from using that particular element in his/her campaign and finding a way to support it in his/her adventures simply because the rulebooks make no place for it anymore. D&D RPGs are about creating your own worlds using what has been published as a guideline.
If I can come up with an adventure that involves spelljamming from one setting to another, I WILL use it because I still like spelljamming and I enjoy adventures that can come from incorporating it into a game. Granted I will have to generate an explanation for how it is possible, but that is part of good campaign construction, and a moderately creative DM shouldn't have a problem with it.
So while I completely agree that they no longer have a place, I will use crystal spheres in my campaigns if it will create an entertaining and interesting story for my players to campaign in.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 06:03:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm a little curious, Sage... Why do you add so much more to your crystal spheres?
Simply, because I like fully detailed adventures in space. And also, because S K Reynolds provided such creative D&D interpretations for naturally occuring spacial phenomena that I just had to incorporate them.
quote:
And how do you work out the increased size and its effect on travel times?
I've never had any strict rules on this. The duration and length of the adventure will normally decide travel times between spheres and whether I need to bring alternate side-quests into a campaign to reflect a particularly lengthy SJ journey.
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Edited by - The Sage on 04 May 2005 06:06:09 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 06:11:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I can see the argument that the spheres are the planes... Sort of. Like I said, one of my ponderings was whether or not the sphere was also the planar boundary...
I honestly don't see how we can not have the spheres, even if they've not been mentioned. There's no other way to have the cosmos change in one setting and not have it have an effect on the other settings, unless those settings were millions of light-years apart -- but that can't be the case, since it's possible to spelljam from world to world in months.
That works for me as well. And it supports your earlier statements about some of the reasons why crystal spheres existed in 2e.
The basic idea of "universal islands" that I mentioned before was built around this point of view, and directly relates to the actual need, or potential need, to alter specific campaign elements and not have them affect the same elements in other settings.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 06:18:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I can see the argument that the spheres are the planes... Sort of. Like I said, one of my ponderings was whether or not the sphere was also the planar boundary...
I honestly don't see how we can not have the spheres, even if they've not been mentioned. There's no other way to have the cosmos change in one setting and not have it have an effect on the other settings, unless those settings were millions of light-years apart -- but that can't be the case, since it's possible to spelljam from world to world in months.
I don't disagree with you and this is another of the thousands of reason's I'll never change to the new cosmologies. However!:
The Spheres are not needed in the new cosmologies because each cosmology, via WOTC, has thier own Prime Materials. So yes they could be thousands of light years apart. Lords of Madness specifically says, for Greyhawk, that there are places in its Prime Material that are years away and this wasn't true in 2e.
So if we have to use an example: If the gods of Dlance decided to change the stars, it wouldn't effect the other seperate and different Prime Materials. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 04 May 2005 06:24:23 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 06:22:11
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Well, in that particular regard, I would have to agree with both Wooly, and you as well Kuje. Technically and canonically, there is no longer an actual "place" for the concept of the crystal sphere to exist in any 3e setting.
The overall structure that now suggests that each setting itself is a infinite material plane of its own has indeed invalidated any "mechanical" need for spelljamming. But what about the element of storytelling that is so important for good campaign enjoyment?
It is a justified position, supported now by numerous canon references, that the "need" for spelljamming has been somewhat reduced, but that shouldn't stop a DM from using that particular element in his/her campaign and finding a way to support it in his/her adventures simply because the rulebooks make no place for it anymore. D&D RPGs are about creating your own worlds using what has been published as a guideline.
If I can come up with an adventure that involves spelljamming from one setting to another, I WILL use it because I still like spelljamming and I enjoy adventures that can come from incorporating it into a game. Granted I will have to generate an explanation for how it is possible, but that is part of good campaign construction, and a moderately creative DM shouldn't have a problem with it.
So while I completely agree that they no longer have a place, I will use crystal spheres in my campaigns if it will create an entertaining and interesting story for my players to campaign in.
Notice I'm not discussing spelljammer here. I'm discussing just the sphere's. :) I agree with you and Spelljammer still does exist in the new cosmologies however it is a problem because per the changes to the cosmologies you really can't, as far as we know, travel to the other Prime Materials. Of course if you could find a portal big enough then you could.
I'm also not telling others to remove the Spheres if they want to add them but the thread turned into a debate of why should the Spheres exist in the new cosmologies not if Spelljammer should exist. And per the material writen for the new planes it makes no sense to include the Spheres since WOTC has turned them into seperate and different Material Planes.
So as I said above, there is no reason for the Sphere's to exist in the new cosmologies because of how WOTC changed the cosmologies. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 04 May 2005 06:31:08 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 06:27:07
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
That works for me as well. And it supports your earlier statements about some of the reasons why crystal spheres existed in 2e.
The basic idea of "universal islands" that I mentioned before was built around this point of view, and directly relates to the actual need, or potential need, to alter specific campaign elements and not have them affect the same elements in other settings.
But with the new seperate and different cosmologies WOTC doesn't have to worry about the effects of setting changes. For example: Lloth. She has changed in FR but since FR's cosmology in 3/3.5e is seperate from Greyhawk's, her silence doesn't effect that cosmology. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 06:35:51
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Notice I'm not discussing spelljammer here. I'm discussing just the sphere's. :) I agree with you and Spelljammer still does exist in the new cosmologies however it is a problem because per the changes to the cosmologies you really can't, as far as know, to the other Prime Materials.
That is true. At the heart of the matter though, I would still believe that the choice for or against the use of crystal spheres (and spelljamming) in a campaign should be based more on the creativity and inspiration of the DM and his/her ability to tell a story rather than the edition of D&D they campaign in.
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I'm also not telling others to remove the Spheres if they want to add them but the thread turned into a debate of why should the Spheres exist in the new cosmologies not if Spelljammer should exist.
Yes, I noticed . But your initial asking for opinions on the subject were eventually likely to bring in all kinds of interpretations on just about everything that directly relates to crystal spheres and spelljamming.
quote:
So as I said above, there is no reason for the Sphere's to exist in the new cosmologies because of how WOTC changed the cosmologies. :)
And I agree with that  .
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 06:47:02
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
That works for me as well. And it supports your earlier statements about some of the reasons why crystal spheres existed in 2e.
The basic idea of "universal islands" that I mentioned before was built around this point of view, and directly relates to the actual need, or potential need, to alter specific campaign elements and not have them affect the same elements in other settings.
But with the new seperate and different cosmologies WOTC doesn't have to worry about the effects of setting changes. For example: Lloth. She has changed in FR but since FR's cosmology in 3/3.5e is seperate from Greyhawk's, her silence doesn't effect that cosmology.
Indeed.
If you noticed earlier, I stated that I was still in a transitional period with regard to how I view the cosmology in general, and the particular cosmologies of individual settings. In my case, some of my campaign settings are still intimately connected, while others are now separate -- DL and FR in particular. In the case of your Realms/Lolth example, everything that was to happen, is happening, and did happen to the Spider Queen had no absolute effect on any other Spider Queen in any other campaign setting that I ran because the changes to Lolth were actually more about how the drow of the Realms perceive the Spider Queen. Her "perceptive position" changed in the Realms ONLY.
But then this actually brings up my completely alter conception of gods and other powers in D&D which I don't really want to get into fully here because it will lead this topic off-track.
As such, I don't view gods and powers in the same way as they are detailed in D&DG. And so my racial and setting-specific "interpretation" factor that I mentioned above also has relevance here. It was just the place of Lolth in that particular cosmology, in this case the Realms, that changed, but not the complete multiversal interpretation of Lolth.
But to directly respond to what you've just said... I don't have a completely accurate answer yet, because my notions of planar cosmologies are still changing.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 08:08:37
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I don't know if you consider this canon or not, but Ed Greenwood mentioned Crystal Spheres in his January 27th 2005 response to Kuje on the Ask Ed forum quote:
kuje, Toril exists within its own physical universe (as covered in Realmspace), its own cosmology (presented in the Players Guide to Faerûn), and has also had thousands of links (some of them permanent, and known as “gates”) with several parallel Prime Material Planes (hence the very name “Forgotten Realms,” which is Toril seen from the viewpoint of a real-world Earth observer).
Real-world Earth (where I live, and Elminster finds me to pass on his tales of this wondrous world we all buy divers products about) is but one of these dozens of Prime Material Planes that Toril is, or has been (and in some cases, will be again, as gates re-open in predetermined cycles or conditions, or are re-opened by the deliberate acts of various beings) directly linked to. (Lest anyone think I’m just concocting this now as a retcon, consider the date on which issue 37 of The Dragon, as it was then, was published.)
The elf realm of Faerie is one such Prime Material Plane, though it’s very different from, say, our real-world Earth (and yes, I’ll very soon answer Melfius as to how and where Faerie and Toril connect).
Most of these Prime Material Planes (from which various of the “creator races” hail) are similar to Toril in that they are vaguely-medieval-level carbon-based and copious-water environments very like Toril, and one can breathe the air and drink the water if one is a resident of one plane, and steps (via gate/portal or spell) from one to the other. Most of them exist both within their own crystal spheres (Spelljammer again, although in the majority of cases the inhabitants of these alternate Prime Material Planes are entirely unaware of the existence of crystal spheres, spelljammers, phlogiston, et al) and in the cosmology described in the ‘core’ D&D rules, where Limbo very much exists.
From what Ed mentions above, one might conclude that Crystal Spheres surround the entirety of a prime material plane. If that is the case, then however large Realmspace is now--whether it is solar-system sized or contains multiple if not myriad star systems--when you get to the edge of the universe, it is bounded by a crystal sphere. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 08:16:48
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That seems fair enough, and I rather like the simplicity of it all. I think that, in time, I might return to such a conceptual model for my planar framework.
I think reducing the overall understanding of such elements as crystal spheres, planar travel, and spelljamming, down to the notice of the average Realmsian, we will likely see that "personal awareness" is actually a crucial part of what is known, and what is not known about such aspects in a setting.
As Ed said in what Gray just quoted, some populations are relatively unaware that such methods of travel exist and are completely unfamiliar with some planar structures.
I think this works best for me.
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Edited by - The Sage on 04 May 2005 08:18:46 |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 10:11:07
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| I use most parts of 3rd edition in my games, but I threw the great tree out the window, because the wheel cosmology is much better(is it true that sigil doesn`t exist in 3rd edition?) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 11:31:11
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
I don't disagree with you and this is another of the thousands of reason's I'll never change to the new cosmologies. However!:
The Spheres are not needed in the new cosmologies because each cosmology, via WOTC, has thier own Prime Materials. So yes they could be thousands of light years apart. Lords of Madness specifically says, for Greyhawk, that there are places in its Prime Material that are years away and this wasn't true in 2e.
So if we have to use an example: If the gods of Dlance decided to change the stars, it wouldn't effect the other seperate and different Prime Materials. :)
But if the worlds are thousands of light years apart, then spelljamming between worlds would take so long that no one would do it (as in, generations to reach another world). At interplanetary speed, a spelljammer doesn't even come close to light speed.
Further, if the settings are each on their own, infinite Prime, then it's simply impossible to spelljam between them.
I really hate to say it, but I don't see how spelljamming can exist in the new cosmology. By their own statements, other than the worlds within the setting's own system, there's nothing else out there.
I think this reflects just how poorly thought out the new cosmology idea was. |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 13:06:30
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The problem with Ed's quote about the crystal sphere surrounding the prime material plane of the realms does not work with 3/3.5 rules because the prime materials are supposed to be infinite. If there is a sphere around them then they can be measured and are no longer infinite.
I personally know nothing of spelljaming, I'm just using logic from what is posted here. The true answer is probably the sphere's no longer exist in 3rd edition because of the cosmology overhaul. |
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Orog-Hai
Acolyte
6 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 13:56:23
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"Further, if the settings are each on their own, infinite Prime, then it's simply impossible to spelljam between them.
I really hate to say it, but I don't see how spelljamming can exist in the new cosmology. By their own statements, other than the worlds within the setting's own system, there's nothing else out there."
There may still be spelljammers in new cosmology. They may be used to travel between different prime material planes trough the planar boundaries instead of trough crystal spheres. Something like mobile portals. That would make them less SF and closer to the planar traveling and that makes a lot more sense to me than bunch of spaceships in a high fantasy setting. This may be radical turn for relmsian Spelljammer fans but that is just my opinion. |
Edited by - Orog-Hai on 04 May 2005 14:29:53 |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 14:37:13
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| As mentioned, spelljamming could still exist but too different worlds on the same prime. As for spelljamming to D-Lance or Greyhawk, the DM just needs to insert some really big "Gates" out in Realmspace. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 14:54:57
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While it doesn't say it directly, the information on the Dome of Creation in the Krynnish cosmology suggests that ancient primordial portals of unknown origin still exist in various places throughout the Dome, but mortal, and even to a certain extent, deity knowledge of such portals is relatively rare.
It could be that these gateways lead directly to other worlds, planes, Sigil, the Far Realm...
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 15:33:45
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
I use most parts of 3rd edition in my games, but I threw the great tree out the window, because the wheel cosmology is much better(is it true that sigil doesn`t exist in 3rd edition?)
No Sigil does exist and it's the same Sigil of the Wheel/Ring. Rich assumes that it is its own plane in the Tree while also floating above the Outlands of Greyhawk's planes. |
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Edited by - Kuje on 04 May 2005 15:50:10 |
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FR's Prime Material Plane - Opinions
