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jaciris
Acolyte
Philippines
7 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Oct 2004 : 01:42:19
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Elminster, Demogorgon, Halaster, Khelben Blackstaff, Larloch the Lich King, Shurrupak, The Seven Sisters (
Syluné,Storm Silverhand, Dove Falconhand, Laeral, Alustriel, the Simbul, and Qilué Veladorn.)
Pending on the list
Asmodeus or Demogorgon ( who is more powerful )
Abdel & Sarevok ( the bhaalspawn )
Jon Irenicus ( the forsaken elf who imprisoned Abdel in BG2;SoA
Drizzt & Artemis ( are they that powerful? )
Dragon Race
Elven Race ( general those above ground & in the underdark )
Druid
Planar Beings
So I just need to know who the powerful figures are in Faerum
especially the Dragons because the once ruled all of Faerum
after the Creator Race fell
for all those who replied to my other post thanks for the info....=)
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2004 : 15:20:52
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Again, I have the same problem with Demogorgon  .
I ask you to consider this write-up of the Prince of Demons, taken from Abyssal Lords - Demonology:
quote:
A prince, one of the six most powerful demons in the Abyss; his title is "Prince of the Demons"; his twin-tailed banner is colored black and bright green. He is the prince of cold-blooded things such as snakes, octopi, and reptiles. Controls several Abyssal layers, each of which resembles a jungle filled with many sorts of vicious apes, reptiles (including dinosaurs), and bird-like monsters. Many of his servants appear as monstrous hybrids, such as a six-legged lizard thing with human arms and a bat's head. His personal guard is made up of snake-fish, toad-crab, and lizard-slug demons. Also served by man-like demons with heads like miniature dinosaurs. Over 100,000 demons are said to dwell in his capital city in the Abyss. Wars with Graz'zt and Orcus. His younger brother is Mandrillagon. Some sources describe Demogorgon as "The Child," and hold that Demogorgon often assumes the form of a young human girl.
Now really, do any of the other beings you've listed in your post above have anything close to what Demogorgon has at his command?
I hope you can understand what I'm saying here... 
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Edited by - The Sage on 31 Oct 2004 15:21:30 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2004 : 15:26:31
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quote:
Originally posted by jaciris
Asmodeus or Demogorgon ( who is more powerful )
Asmodeus. He is the "Lord of the Nine Hells" after all . He also has the accumulated power of uncounted millennia at his disposal, since just after Creation I believe.
Demogorgon has the command of several layers only.
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2004 : 16:44:27
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| Sage, I believe he meant like just Asmodeus and Demogorgon themselves, not any political or military power they wield. However, I would agree with Asmodeus as Demogorgon seems to be having problems controlling his two heads and it's going to ugly soon... |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2004 : 22:04:26
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Most powerful beings in the realms...
My vote would have to go towards an undead being. That leaves us to look between Larloch, Szass Tam, or perhaps a slumbering mummy somewhere in a forgotten crypt in Mulhorand waiting for the wars there to awaken it into a scourge, perhaps Imhotep style.
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Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2004 : 02:47:43
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Sage, I believe he meant like just Asmodeus and Demogorgon themselves, not any political or military power they wield.
It's completely impossible to divest either entity from what they represent. Both are power and politics... made manifest  . They are, what they represent. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Taelohn
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2004 : 19:35:48
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quote:
That leaves us to look between Larloch, Szass Tam, or perhaps a slumbering mummy somewhere in a forgotten crypt in Mulhorand waiting for the wars there to awaken it into a scourge, perhaps Imhotep style.
Larloch is clearly more powerful than Tam (who was actually afraid in his meeting with the elder lich). Larloch is possibly the most powerful non-divine being "living" on Faerun.
(Unless Ioulaum still exists, somehow - I find it very suspicious that the most powerful Netherese archwizard ever [save Karsus] could be defeated by a handful of illithids).
One must also consider Telamont Tanthul (Lord Shadow), another powerful Netherese arcanist - I wouldn't consider him on par with Larloch, but at least as powerful (or moreso) than most of the Chosen of Mystra.
quote:
Asmodeus or Demogorgon ( who is more powerful )
Asmodeus and Demogorgon are in another league entirely. For one, they're not of Toril at all, but the Nine Hells and the Abyss (respectively), and their schemes affect hundreds of Prime worlds.
Each is, according to many, assumed to be at least as powerful as a greater god. The 3E archfiend stats make no sense from a cosmological perspective - a being like Asmodeus, which has ruled over an entire Outer Plane for millions of years, is respected and feared by even the deities that live there, and is even creditted with defeating at least two pantheons of deities... well, such a being would logically be more powerful than a demigod.
Demogorgon is the more powerful of the two in personal might (physical or magical), but his nature affords him no allies (other demons obey him out of fear). Asmodeus is more formidable overall, for he has an entire, rigidly-ordered plane full of minions at his disposal. Asmodeus is the perfect tyrant; Demogorgon is a personification of destruction (as well as [corrupted] creation). |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2004 : 12:30:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Taelohn
quote:
That leaves us to look between Larloch, Szass Tam, or perhaps a slumbering mummy somewhere in a forgotten crypt in Mulhorand waiting for the wars there to awaken it into a scourge, perhaps Imhotep style.
Larloch is clearly more powerful than Tam (who was actually afraid in his meeting with the elder lich). Larloch is possibly the most powerful non-divine being "living" on Faerun.
Well, here's the thing... how do we define "powerful". Do we mean sheer one on one, hardcore combat powerful? Then larloch wins. But what about more ephmereal power? Szass tam could bring to bear significgant economic, industrial, and military might.
In a fight between Szass and Larloch, I believe Szass would win, not in a one on one fight, but by turning the combined might of legions of thayan red wizards against his enemy. Even when we take into consideration those opposed to Szass, especially a few of the otehr Zulkirs, we are left with what is still a mighty force to be wielded by him as a weapon.
Larloch is cut off from any safety net, most if not all allies, and so forth.
In the end, I believe Szass would win. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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Forlorn
Seeker
59 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2004 : 13:46:49
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| It is said that Larloch has more than 100 hundred lich serving him without free will and he holds various ancient artifacts of Netherese empire. I can't think of any reason that can lead them to an field war so the army of Tam would be useless against Larloch. However if a situation leads Larloch to a conquest against Tam's power, I believe he has more than enough recourse to fund rising armies and gather stronger minions to control his army. And considering the competion between the Zulkirs many of them would betray Tam instead of opposing the might of Larloch. So , I think Larloch is stronger than Tam in many bases. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2004 : 17:40:41
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| I'd add the Srinshee. Chosen of Mystra. 30th or there abouts spell caster and also a High Mage. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2004 : 00:24:12
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Capn Charlie, the fight you are speaking about would not likely happen, as Szass Tam is quite afraid of Larloch. The last time they met, the Lich-King gave the Zulkir of Necromancy several powerful artifacts as gifts. This shows that Larloch does not even care about such artifacts and is confident enough that Tam could not defeat him even with the items.
Then like Forlorn said, Larloch has a cabal of liches under his command, though I thought it was only around 60. Besides, just Larloch himself is more than enough to handle most Red Wizards. Remember, he suffers from regular raids and attacks by Red Wizards who hope to steal his knowledge and powers but Larloch just destroys them everytime. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2004 : 10:52:44
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It comes back to how we define power...
Individually, Larloch is more powerful than Tam. Tam with his retinue against Larloch and his retinue would end in Tam getting smoked.
But, Tam has a lot of temporal power. A nation that is under him, one of thay's size and might, is a powerful resource. It might also be argued that Tam is more powerful than larloch due his being in a position of essentially leading a major nation. Also, remember, even if the Reds are individually weaker than larloch and his cadre of liches, they have numerical superiority, and teh ability to bring to bear sufficient industrial might, and replenish their numbers far more reliably than Larloch's force. These are significgant advantages.
I do however concede that the argument is really moot, since such a conflict would likely never occur. However... as an excercise, it is fun to play with. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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Taelohn
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2004 : 18:37:41
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Well, let's see.
On one hand, we have Larloch. A very high-level lich (32nd according to WotC; 46th according to Ed; and we all know who's more reliable  ), he also has several unique powers (like permanent spell turning). He controls roughly sixty other liches, perhaps more. Each of these is probably level 20+. (Prior to 3E, a wizard had to be 18th level minimum to become a lich; and many of these ones are Netherese, making them quite old... and making it quite possible some could be at least 25-30ish in level). In addition to that, he controls vampires, who can be exceedingly dangerous for those not prepared. Most likely hundreds of them. As far as lesser undead go (ghouls, wights, etc.), they may number in the thousands.
On the other hand, we have Thay. Their mightiest wizard is Szass Tam, a 29th level lich. He's "only" 269 years old, vs. Larloch at over 2000. The other Zulkirs are mostly in the low-mid 20s, with the remainder of the Red Wizards, generally, below that. They also have a very large population of slaves, as well as some monsters, and Szass Tam commands a sizable force of lesser undead.
Thay may have the quantity, but they're lacking on quality. After all, the Simbul can single-handedly defeat Thayan armies. How much, in the measure of Thayan lives, is one of Larloch's liches worth?  |
Edited by - Taelohn on 03 Nov 2004 18:40:22 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2004 : 00:26:23
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A very good argument, Taelohn. If Larloch did want to raise an army, he could do it easily by summoning monsters and demons to his sides and just bring them along with the undead that he controls.
Capn, you keep saying that Tam controls a nation and can bring a nation's might and power on Larloch. However, Tam isn't the only ruler, and I'm pretty sure that at least 3-4 of the Zulkirs would not agree to throw their armies at Larloch the Lich-King. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2004 : 03:24:20
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| i said this in the other scroll as well but i shall put it here as well, u may want 2 consider Vecna |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2004 : 06:32:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Dracandos the Spellsage
i said this in the other scroll as well but i shall put it here as well, u may want 2 consider Vecna
To the best of my knowledge, Vecna has never had any influence in the Realms. He was in Greyhawk and then Ravenloft, but I can't recall any references to his presence in the Realms. |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2004 : 21:11:57
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i kno... i just really like Vecna |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 09:37:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dracandos the Spellsage
i said this in the other scroll as well but i shall put it here as well, u may want 2 consider Vecna
To the best of my knowledge, Vecna has never had any influence in the Realms. He was in Greyhawk and then Ravenloft, but I can't recall any references to his presence in the Realms.
The only time Vecna has had any connection to the Realms was by way of an insignificant cleric of the Vile One who once took a wrong turn through a doorway of a popular Sigil inn quietly chanting a hymn about his glorious god. Little did the poor cleric know that the particular doorway he was passing through also continued a portal which was set to trigger if a mortal passed through singing (or chanting) about their respective (evil) deity.
It's not know what eventually become of the cleric, but a PS sourcebook points out that the Faerunian end of the portal lead to the Underdark. So, I guess we are only left to assume what would have happened to a lowly cleric of a god no common mortal on Faerun would know anything about.
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 17:16:48
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| an interesting tale indeed...but does this mean that since there is a link (or that there potentially could be one) between Sigil and Faerun that the two could be connected even though Sigil is not a part of the FR? if this is true...could it not also be assumed that Vecna could then be linked to the FR? |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 18:15:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Dracandos the Spellsage
an interesting tale indeed...but does this mean that since there is a link (or that there potentially could be one) between Sigil and Faerun that the two could be connected even though Sigil is not a part of the FR? if this is true...could it not also be assumed that Vecna could then be linked to the FR?
Sigil has always been a part of FR since the introduction of Planescape. The World Serpent Inn in Cormyr connected to Sigil in 2e. And in 3e's planes, even though it isn't listed in the cosmology, it still exists. Faiths & Pantheons mentions a portal to Sigil in one of the temple write ups near the back. Rich Baker has also confirmed via question and answers that Sigil would be it's own plane in the new FR planes BUT it's the same exact Sigil that exists atop the Spire of the Outlands in Greyhawk's cosmology. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 06 Nov 2004 22:30:49 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 22:06:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Dracandos the Spellsage
an interesting tale indeed...but does this mean that since there is a link (or that there potentially could be one) between Sigil and Faerun that the two could be connected even though Sigil is not a part of the FR? if this is true...could it not also be assumed that Vecna could then be linked to the FR?
We could indeed assume a link, but it would just be an assumption. And if we do that, then we have to look at other beings of power in the Realms, and decide whether or not they're linked to Oerth. Are the Red Wizards of Thay, for example, linked to the Scarlet Brotherhood? Are Velsharoon and Iuz somehow linked? And so on...
It's easier to apply Occam's Razor, and say that with no proof, there is no link. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2004 : 05:02:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Are Velsharoon and Iuz somehow linked?
Actually, I always enjoyed the theory about the supposed connection between Velsharoon, Iuz, Myrkul, Melif, and Mellifleur.
The ultimate surprise of this theory is... that it's actually TRUE... 
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2004 : 17:01:37
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| well if Sigil is part of the FR, then why wouldnt Vecna be a part of the FR as well since he is on the same realm as Sigil? wouldnt this allow Vecna to go to Sigil and use a portal to enter Toril? hypothetically speaking ofcourse |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 06:05:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Dracandos the Spellsage
well if Sigil is part of the FR, then why wouldnt Vecna be a part of the FR as well since he is on the same realm as Sigil? wouldnt this allow Vecna to go to Sigil and use a portal to enter Toril? hypothetically speaking ofcourse
Vecna, if used as a deity, couldn't enter Sigil.
And common connections to a specific point do not imply connections through that point. Krynn has connections to Sigil, too, but that doesn't mean that Kiri-Jolith has any interest in the Realms.
In fact, the book Tymora's Luck said that deities of one sphere were not allowed to meddle in another sphere. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 14:20:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Dracandos the Spellsage
well if Sigil is part of the FR, then why wouldnt Vecna be a part of the FR as well since he is on the same realm as Sigil? wouldnt this allow Vecna to go to Sigil and use a portal to enter Toril? hypothetically speaking ofcourse
Hypothetically speaking, yes, it's certainly possible, especially if your DM doesn't mind bending pre-established fluff material.
In actual game terms... no, it's strictly prohibited by order (and the power) of Her Serenity, the Lady of Pain. The PS adventure that portrayed Vecna in the City of Doors was a mistake, pure and simple . It contradicted years of established planar lore, and only supported these contradications with flimsy justifications.
It's also prohibited by the power of the Lady of Pain, as I just suggested. She has the power to bar any and all deities from accessing the City of Doors and using it's portals. So, it's impossible for Vecna to use any portal in the Cage to journey to Toril.
Do not take anything that was said or illustrated about Sigil in the Die Vecna, Die adventure as accepted canon.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 14:24:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Krynn has connections to Sigil, too, but that doesn't mean that Kiri-Jolith has any interest in the Realms.
This is no longer the case. Not only did the events of the War of Souls put this assumption into doubt, but the Krynnspace cosmology simply does not allow for it.
I apologise for these tangents into discussions about other settings Alaundo, but, given the current direction of this conversation, it seemed necessary  .
Now, back to the Realmslore my fellow scribes...
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5692 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 14:53:13
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Krynn has connections to Sigil, too, but that doesn't mean that Kiri-Jolith has any interest in the Realms.
This is no longer the case. Not only did the events of the War of Souls put this assumption into doubt, but the Krynnspace cosmology simply does not allow for it.
I apologise for these tangents into discussions about other settings Alaundo, but, given the current direction of this conversation, it seemed necessary .
Now, back to the Realmslore my fellow scribes...
Well met
Aye, quite I was wondering how long it would be for this scroll to go awry |
Alaundo
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 16:27:48
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
In actual game terms... no, it's strictly prohibited by order (and the power) of Her Serenity, the Lady of Pain. The PS adventure that portrayed Vecna in the City of Doors was a mistake, pure and simple . It contradicted years of established planar lore, and only supported these contradications with flimsy justifications.
Whoa here. That adventure wasn't an Planescape Adventure because: one, it doesn't have the PS logo and two the PS line had ended by then. It's a generic D&D adventure that uses the planes that were detailed in Planescape just like it uses Ravenloft but it is technically just a generically labeled D&D adventure just like Warriors of Heaven. :)
To keep this on topic how about Maskar Wands, one of Waterdeep's many archmages. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 08 Nov 2004 16:37:08 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 18:09:13
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
To keep this on topic how about Maskar Wands, one of Waterdeep's many archmages. :)
Uh, what about him?  |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 19:39:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
To keep this on topic how about Maskar Wands, one of Waterdeep's many archmages. :)
Uh, what about him?
Um Wooly? Have you also gone senile here? The topic is the mightist beings.... Maskar is pretty mighty.... Shrug because the poster never explained what he meant by mighty that could include wealth, power, etc. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 20:37:15
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
To keep this on topic how about Maskar Wands, one of Waterdeep's many archmages. :)
Uh, what about him?
Um Wooly? Have you also gone senile here? The topic is the mightist beings.... Maskar is pretty mighty.... Shrug because the poster never explained what he meant by mighty that could include wealth, power, etc. :)
Ah, but is he really all that compared to some of the others that have hit this list? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Mightiest Beings part two
