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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
 Posted - 20 May 2018 : 13:26:40
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Some big things happened with Mord Tome of Foes with the lore, especially elves.
First off Evermeet because it was partially unmoored from Faerun has been getting immigrants from none Toril worlds, so the ship coming to your port in Waterdeep for example might be bearing Elves from other worlds,such as Greyhawk, Sigil, and Stranger settings.
They could even bring their Gods with them.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2018 : 13:40:03
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In fact the Seldarine in Faerun has grown as has the Dark Seldarine. Oh and the Raven Queen has arrived, although it's unclear how she fits into FR lore. Shadar Kai are elves now, very creepy elves. I think they can even be found on Evermeet now.
Sea Elves don't have any problems being on land now.
Nagpas are transformed Shadar Kai Wizards who were punished for betraying the Raven Queen (given the end result of the Nagpas actions to the Shadar Kai and the Raven Queen, the Nagpa deserve it).
Sorrowsworn are very different now, they are Shadowfell incarnations of despair and suffering now.
Skull Lords are basically treacherous undead Sorcerers (minus the sorcery points or metamagic) rule large areas of the Shadowfell.
Larva Mages now can be made from the servants of any worm/maggot like Elder Evil like Kezef.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2018 : 15:35:00
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We already have three death gods; what possible niche does the Raven Queen fulfill that Kelemvor, Bhaal and Myrkul don't?
The Raven Queen is quickly becoming the new Shar. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2018 : 18:50:19
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-Stupid changes.
-Re: the Raven Queen, I adapted her when 4e came out in my homebrew world as basically the servant of the main god of death, into a being similar to the Grim Reaper. In the Forgotten Realms, I could see her serving a similar role. An assistant to Kelemvor of sorts. All souls are sent where ever in the afterlife, and the Raven Queen is in charge of making sure all of that goes smoothly. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2018 : 18:56:22
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| The thing is that in 5e Myrkul is back, and what you describe (Grim Reaper) is basically his role now. He is the god of death itself, while Kelemvor is the judge of the dead. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2018 : 20:52:06
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I guess we need some context here. There is a lot of elven stuff in this book. How they live (surface elves, eladrin, drow and shadar-kai have different sections), new elven gods and that stuff (though only a few gods are described). It seems Mythals are now not a Forgotten Realms exclusive thing anymore. Same with bladesinging (though the book acknowledges that is rare to see a bladesinger in other worlds, while in Toril they are more "common").
Yes, the Raven Queen is in the book, and yes she is known to some people in the Realms. At the very least, Alustriel Silverhand has knowledge about her. But that is all. The book states that the knowledge about her is new in some worlds. Before that, even if she is an ancient being, mortals didn't knew about her because both both Corellon and Lolth consider her a traitor and erased all knowledge about her from the elven minds. People is discovering about her in recent times, thanks to the shadar-kai (and in some worlds, people already knew about her since ancient times).
The thing is, the Raven Queen is no goddess of death anymore (though she somehow has control over souls). Her origins have been fully retconned. Even her castle's name was changed, and her rivalry with Orcus has been changed to a rivalry with Vecna. She is now a goddess of secrets, emotions and memories, so is stepping in no god's portfolio in the current Realms.
As already discussed on other topics, the Raven Queen was one of the primal elves (those that existed before Corellon cast out all elves for their "betrayal"), in fact a queen of some of them (modern day shadar-kai). She wanted to attain godhood so she could stop Corellon and Lolth from fighting, but thanks to the would be nagpas, the ritual went awfully wrong and she and her followers ended up trapped in the Shadowfell instead. Those of her followers who survived eventually turned into the shadar-kai. The queen was able to use her incredible magical power to survive the catastrophe, and was transformed into a new being: the Raven Queen. Thanks to her connection to the place, she gained control over souls. She then turned against the traitors and transformed them into nagpas. As already said, Corellon and Lolth don't like her.
Since then, the Raven Queen has been collecting souls (those unlucky to not get to the Outer Planes but wander instead enough to be trapped by her shadar-kai), striping them from their memories, emotions and secrets, and then releases them to their respective destinies in the Outer Planes. She has the biggest collection of secrets in the multiverse, so Vecna wants to control her so he can gain access to this wealth of knowledge. So far, he has failed. Some people also believe the Raven Queen is somehow allied with the Lady of Pain.
And yes, before you ask, they addressed the thing about the origins of drow. It seems the descent of the drow happened at different times in different worlds, and is yet to happen in some others (such as in Krynn). So, it seems there is no retcon here. Just that in Toril the descent of the drow happened way after it had happened in other worlds. Also, Mordenkainen seems to believe good drow does not exist, despite Elminster's words. lol (poor Drizzt).
Also, Vulkoor (the scorpion-drow god of Eberron) is part of the Dark Seldarine now, though nobody knows much of his role or his true nature. There is the possibility that he can be Lolth's male form (as, you know, some elves are now able to change their sex at will, and their gods are always depicted in this o that sex).
About Evermeet, it seems they retconned earlier 5e sources (again) and Evermeet never returned to Toril after the Spellplague. Its located now in between the Material Plane, the Feywild and Arvandor. If an elf follow the right sea currents and has been already there, he or she can allow a ship to go from Evermeet to Faerūn and the other way around. As Gyor said, the place its not exclusive to Faerūn anymore, since "the recent decades" (after the Spellplague, I guess). Elves from all the multiverse can get there if they follow the right paths. The queen disappeared because the Seldarine do not want a single mortal to rule the island: is now, by divine decree, a place open to elves from all worlds.
By the way, the book gives a more logical and understandable reason to explain why the elves created Evermeet: it seems that all elves feel a longing to return to Arvandor, but after they "betrayed" Corellon (all elves, in his eyes, betrayed him when they chose permanent forms instead of being everchanging forever), they cannot go to Arvandor until they die. Even then, they can go there for only a few years before reincarnating again in the Material Plane as mortals. Even elves from worlds that do not know nothing about the planes or Corellon at all (such as the elves from Krynn) feel this longing, because its ingrained in their very essences. So, the Torilian high elves of the past wanted to create Evermeet to have a place so similar to the heaven Corellon has denied them. The Seldarine didn't punished them for this because the First Sundering was enough punishment in their eyes (or so its believed).
About reincarnation, all elves are reincarnated souls. If an elf of Faerun dies, she can reincarnate in Toril, but also on Eberron or any other worlds, at Corellon's will. Drow does not reincarnate, however. Nobody knows what happen to their souls. This apply even to the souls of those drow who revere Eilistraee (though, in Arvandor you can meet some "few fortunate drow" souls). The shadar-kai also don't get the blessing of Corellon's reincarnation, but the Raven Queen allow their souls to reincarnate into new shadar-kai, so their souls are not lost. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 20 May 2018 21:02:42 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2018 : 22:26:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Stupid changes.
-Re: the Raven Queen, I adapted her when 4e came out in my homebrew world as basically the servant of the main god of death, into a being similar to the Grim Reaper. In the Forgotten Realms, I could see her serving a similar role. An assistant to Kelemvor of sorts. All souls are sent where ever in the afterlife, and the Raven Queen is in charge of making sure all of that goes smoothly.
In FR the Raven Queen is more a Cosmic Being akin to a Demon Lord, Archdevil, Celestial Paragon, or Archfey then a true God, she a Quasigod, thanks to the betrayal of the Shadar Kai Wizards who would become the Nagpa by her wrath.
You can choose her as a Warlock Patron, not as a Goddess in FR and she isn't a Goddess of Death, more almost a Super powerful, but insane Vestiage of the Elf Queen almost Goddess after she got sucked into the Shadowfell.
Honestly I preferred the BDSM dark flavor of the Shadar Kai to servants of a broken insane almost Goddess whose tragic remaining essence is trapped in the Shadowfell, not chooses to be on in the Shadowfell. Seriously 5e Raven Queen and Shadar Kai drive way past Emo town, right Straight into pure Nightmare Fuel ville.
Like these guys would almost fit better in the Chronicles of Darkness/World of Darkness Settings then D&D. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2018 : 22:29:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
About reincarnation, all elves are reincarnated souls. If an elf of Faerun dies, she can reincarnate in Toril, but also on Eberron or any other worlds, at Corellon's will. Drow does not reincarnate, however. Nobody knows what happen to their souls. This apply even to the souls of those drow who revere Eilistraee (though, in Arvandor you can meet some "few fortunate drow" souls). The shadar-kai also don't get the blessing of Corellon's reincarnation, but the Raven Queen allow their souls to reincarnate into new shadar-kai, so their souls are not lost.
Actually drow souls (and any other elven souls failing to reincarnate) just go to the outer planes as usual. So the Dark Seldarine collect their followers as usual
quote:
ToF
Elves who die of old age without experiencing Transcendence are believed to have been denied admission to Arvandor, and thus their souls pass on to other planes and are never reincarnated. The living are left to guess why this might be true, but an elfs conduct during life often offers a clue. Drow never experience Transcendence, for example, and the same is true for elves who turn to the worship of gods other than the Seldarine.
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Edited by - Mirtek on 20 May 2018 22:32:27 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2018 : 22:39:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
The thing is that in 5e Myrkul is back, and what you describe (Grim Reaper) is basically his role now. He is the god of death itself, while Kelemvor is the judge of the dead.
quote:
Originally posted by IrennanIn FR the Raven Queen is more a Cosmic Being akin to a Demon Lord, Archdevil, Celestial Paragon, or Archfey then a true God, she a Quasigod, thanks to the betrayal of the Shadar Kai Wizards who would become the Nagpa by her wrath.
You can choose her as a Warlock Patron, not as a Goddess in FR and she isn't a Goddess of Death, more almost a Super powerful, but insane Vestiage of the Elf Queen almost Goddess after she got sucked into the Shadowfell.
-Could still work. Myrkul is the actual god of death, Kelemvor is the god that judges them, and the Raven Queen an agent of theirs that makes sure everyone stays on that line to be judged (or something to that effect) and is tasked with fetching those that try to pull something funny. Assuming Kelemvor still dislikes undead, that would work well with that concept.
-Still stupid changes. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 20 May 2018 22:41:14 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2018 : 22:42:14
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| So, a watchdog? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2018 : 02:52:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
The thing is that in 5e Myrkul is back, and what you describe (Grim Reaper) is basically his role now. He is the god of death itself, while Kelemvor is the judge of the dead.
quote:
Originally posted by IrennanIn FR the Raven Queen is more a Cosmic Being akin to a Demon Lord, Archdevil, Celestial Paragon, or Archfey then a true God, she a Quasigod, thanks to the betrayal of the Shadar Kai Wizards who would become the Nagpa by her wrath.
You can choose her as a Warlock Patron, not as a Goddess in FR and she isn't a Goddess of Death, more almost a Super powerful, but insane Vestiage of the Elf Queen almost Goddess after she got sucked into the Shadowfell.
-Could still work. Myrkul is the actual god of death, Kelemvor is the god that judges them, and the Raven Queen an agent of theirs that makes sure everyone stays on that line to be judged (or something to that effect) and is tasked with fetching those that try to pull something funny. Assuming Kelemvor still dislikes undead, that would work well with that concept.
-Still stupid changes.
The Raven Queen is a shut in trying to keep from being devoured by collecting memories, trinkets, souls, and secrets, and sending Shadar Kai to gather this stuff for her (honestly if the Shadar Kai we're brighter they'd realize they'd be better off trying find a way to put the Raven Queen out of her misery).
Seriously this not the Raven Queen Goddess of Death of Nearth, it's a super powerful wreck of a being, whose mere existence seems to keep the Shadar Kai in a dark purgatory, a one of the last places they should want to be given the effect the place has on them. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2018 : 02:53:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
The thing is that in 5e Myrkul is back, and what you describe (Grim Reaper) is basically his role now. He is the god of death itself, while Kelemvor is the judge of the dead.
quote:
Originally posted by IrennanIn FR the Raven Queen is more a Cosmic Being akin to a Demon Lord, Archdevil, Celestial Paragon, or Archfey then a true God, she a Quasigod, thanks to the betrayal of the Shadar Kai Wizards who would become the Nagpa by her wrath.
You can choose her as a Warlock Patron, not as a Goddess in FR and she isn't a Goddess of Death, more almost a Super powerful, but insane Vestiage of the Elf Queen almost Goddess after she got sucked into the Shadowfell.
-Could still work. Myrkul is the actual god of death, Kelemvor is the god that judges them, and the Raven Queen an agent of theirs that makes sure everyone stays on that line to be judged (or something to that effect) and is tasked with fetching those that try to pull something funny. Assuming Kelemvor still dislikes undead, that would work well with that concept.
-Still stupid changes.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2018 : 03:28:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I guess we need some context here. There is a lot of elven stuff in this book. How they live (surface elves, eladrin, drow and shadar-kai have different sections), new elven gods and that stuff (though only a few gods are described). It seems Mythals are now not a Forgotten Realms exclusive thing anymore. Same with bladesinging (though the book acknowledges that is rare to see a bladesinger in other worlds, while in Toril they are more "common").
Yes, the Raven Queen is in the book, and yes she is known to some people in the Realms. At the very least, Alustriel Silverhand has knowledge about her. But that is all. The book states that the knowledge about her is new in some worlds. Before that, even if she is an ancient being, mortals didn't knew about her because both both Corellon and Lolth consider her a traitor and erased all knowledge about her from the elven minds. People is discovering about her in recent times, thanks to the shadar-kai (and in some worlds, people already knew about her since ancient times).
The thing is, the Raven Queen is no goddess of death anymore (though she somehow has control over souls). Her origins have been fully retconned. Even her castle's name was changed, and her rivalry with Orcus has been changed to a rivalry with Vecna. She is now a goddess of secrets, emotions and memories, so is stepping in no god's portfolio in the current Realms.
As already discussed on other topics, the Raven Queen was one of the primal elves (those that existed before Corellon cast out all elves for their "betrayal"), in fact a queen of some of them (modern day shadar-kai). She wanted to attain godhood so she could stop Corellon and Lolth from fighting, but thanks to the would be nagpas, the ritual went awfully wrong and she and her followers ended up trapped in the Shadowfell instead. Those of her followers who survived eventually turned into the shadar-kai. The queen was able to use her incredible magical power to survive the catastrophe, and was transformed into a new being: the Raven Queen. Thanks to her connection to the place, she gained control over souls. She then turned against the traitors and transformed them into nagpas. As already said, Corellon and Lolth don't like her.
Since then, the Raven Queen has been collecting souls (those unlucky to not get to the Outer Planes but wander instead enough to be trapped by her shadar-kai), striping them from their memories, emotions and secrets, and then releases them to their respective destinies in the Outer Planes. She has the biggest collection of secrets in the multiverse, so Vecna wants to control her so he can gain access to this wealth of knowledge. So far, he has failed. Some people also believe the Raven Queen is somehow allied with the Lady of Pain.
And yes, before you ask, they addressed the thing about the origins of drow. It seems the descent of the drow happened at different times in different worlds, and is yet to happen in some others (such as in Krynn). So, it seems there is no retcon here. Just that in Toril the descent of the drow happened way after it had happened in other worlds. Also, Mordenkainen seems to believe good drow does not exist, despite Elminster's words. lol (poor Drizzt).
Also, Vulkoor (the scorpion-drow god of Eberron) is part of the Dark Seldarine now, though nobody knows much of his role or his true nature. There is the possibility that he can be Lolth's male form (as, you know, some elves are now able to change their sex at will, and their gods are always depicted in this o that sex).
About Evermeet, it seems they retconned earlier 5e sources (again) and Evermeet never returned to Toril after the Spellplague. Its located now in between the Material Plane, the Feywild and Arvandor. If an elf follow the right sea currents and has been already there, he or she can allow a ship to go from Evermeet to Faerūn and the other way around. As Gyor said, the place its not exclusive to Faerūn anymore, since "the recent decades" (after the Spellplague, I guess). Elves from all the multiverse can get there if they follow the right paths. The queen disappeared because the Seldarine do not want a single mortal to rule the island: is now, by divine decree, a place open to elves from all worlds.
By the way, the book gives a more logical and understandable reason to explain why the elves created Evermeet: it seems that all elves feel a longing to return to Arvandor, but after they "betrayed" Corellon (all elves, in his eyes, betrayed him when they chose permanent forms instead of being everchanging forever), they cannot go to Arvandor until they die. Even then, they can go there for only a few years before reincarnating again in the Material Plane as mortals. Even elves from worlds that do not know nothing about the planes or Corellon at all (such as the elves from Krynn) feel this longing, because its ingrained in their very essences. So, the Torilian high elves of the past wanted to create Evermeet to have a place so similar to the heaven Corellon has denied them. The Seldarine didn't punished them for this because the First Sundering was enough punishment in their eyes (or so its believed).
About reincarnation, all elves are reincarnated souls. If an elf of Faerun dies, she can reincarnate in Toril, but also on Eberron or any other worlds, at Corellon's will. Drow does not reincarnate, however. Nobody knows what happen to their souls. This apply even to the souls of those drow who revere Eilistraee (though, in Arvandor you can meet some "few fortunate drow" souls). The shadar-kai also don't get the blessing of Corellon's reincarnation, but the Raven Queen allow their souls to reincarnate into new shadar-kai, so their souls are not lost.
Here is the thing about the Shadar Kai's reincarnation, we know regular subraces of Elves, High Elves, Sea Elves, Eladarin, Wild Elves, and so on except the Drow, and those Elves that dworship other Gods, go to Arvandor for a time before beings reincarnated, I'm wondering if Shadar Kai get to spend time in an afterlife before being reborn too?
I'll also note that all none Drow are reborn as as the same race as they've always been, Sea Elf souls only get reborn as Sea Elf Souls, High Elf Souls are only reborn as High Elves, Wood Elves only get reborn as Wood Elves, Eladarin only get reborn as Eladarin and the Shadar Kai only get reborn as Shadar Kai. Drow normally only go to the after life like most humans.
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Edited by - Gyor on 21 May 2018 03:51:57 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2018 : 03:47:25
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Also Zandilar is now Chaotic Neutral, not Chaotic Good, and the Goddess of Lust, Romance, and Dance, no mention of all cats, although Moonbow's "Province" does not mention the moon, even though her blurb mentions being a Goddess of the moon. Odd. Also most of the Seldarine and Dark Seldarine were Primal Elves uplifted to Godhood by Corellon Larethian himself, for being extraordinary at something. And it's the Primal Elves who were born from Corellon's blood, with Moonbow being born from the first drop.
Zandilar is even said to have been one of those Primal Elves born of Corellon's blood and uplifted to Godhood.
Weirdly it's even suggested Ghuandar was one of the Primal Elf Gods who sided with Lolth, but who betrayed her Corellon in the hopes of being allowed to return, getting turned into a boneless jelly for his troubles, and yet he is also the Alien Older then Ancient Elder Evil that we know and love at the same time. Perhaps a cosmic union of Slime Gods created the current Ghuanadar and why he's worshipped by Aberrants and oozes on one hand and Drow and Great Old One Warlocks on the other.
One weird thing is Vulkoor is now allowed in FR, I can see Greyhawk deities they are already apart of the Seldarine and Dark Seldarine, but Vulkoor is all the way in Eberron and his link to the Dark Seldarine is weak.
Still I blame the sudden surge in Elven Gods and possibly other beings like the Raven Queen, and Deities of other Pantheons, on Evermeet, which is a bridge between different Material Plane Worlds, Feywild, and Arvandor, to Toril. I mean the immigrant Elves likely brought the worship of many of the new Seldarine and Dark Seldarine Gods, as well as stoways and Elf friends bringing the Worship of other deities as well. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2018 : 04:07:52
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As for Sehanine not getting the moon domain, that's weird, but consider that the "province" thing (spheres of influence) is not a complete list. You'll see the same in the SCAG, where the deities are listed with 1 or 2 portfolios, but their more in-depth entries provide the full list.
For example, in the MToF table for the Dark Seldarine, Eilistraee's "province" doesn't even include dance, her iconic portfolio, and is missing beauty, hunt, and swordplay. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 May 2018 19:09:30 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2018 : 11:52:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
As for Sehanine not getting the moon domain, that's weird, but consider that the "province" thing (spheres of influence) is not a complete list. You'll see the same in the SCAG, where the deities are listed with 1 or 2 portfolios, but their more in-depth entries provide the full list.
For example, in the MToF table for the Dark Seldarine, Eilistraee's "province", doesn't even include dance, her iconic portfolio, and is missing beauty, hunt, and swordplay.
Excellent points. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2018 : 18:15:48
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Without going into rants or anything, and pledging not to argue the point with those who disagree -- I can't stand any of this lore. There was no need to go back and change that which was already established, and I think that the retcons of the Raven Queen show that she was a poorly thought out addition to begin with, when they first decided to add her to the setting despite claiming there were too many gods to begin with.
I will say no more on this. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2018 : 19:35:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Also Zandilar is now Chaotic Neutral, not Chaotic Good, and the Goddess of Lust, Romance, and Dance, no mention of all cats ...
To my knowledge Zandilar had nothing to do with cats, it's Bast/Sharess that had that portfolio and that absorbed Zandilar. Zandilar province was also in those domains that are still attributed to her. Also I don't remember seeing the alignment of Zandilar anywhere but this may be just an oversight of mine.
The thing I don't understand is if the above means Zandilar is an independent deity/something again and what that could mean for Bast/Sharess ... |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2018 : 20:04:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Also Zandilar is now Chaotic Neutral, not Chaotic Good, and the Goddess of Lust, Romance, and Dance, no mention of all cats ...
To my knowledge Zandilar had nothing to do with cats, it's Bast/Sharess that had that portfolio and that absorbed Zandilar. Zandilar province was also in those domains that are still attributed to her. Also I don't remember seeing the alignment of Zandilar anywhere but this may be just an oversight of mine.
The thing I don't understand is if the above means Zandilar is an independent deity/something again and what that could mean for Bast/Sharess ...
Maybe Sharess at this point is like Angharradh, a three in one deity, Zandilar/Bast/Felidae combined to form Sharess.
Or this Zandilar is the primordial multiversal Zandilar and its only the FR Zandilar aspect that merged with Bast to create Sharess, but outside of Faerun Bast and Zandilar are still seperate. |
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe
Canada
124 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2018 : 21:22:18
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| Evermeet always felt like Tolkien's "undying lands" to me (probably because it was the source of inspiration for it), and now it does more so than ever. I guess it won't be long before Legolas sails to the shores of the Sword Coast from the west. :P |
"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2018 : 22:46:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Balmar Foghaven
Evermeet always felt like Tolkien's "undying lands" to me (probably because it was the source of inspiration for it), and now it does more so than ever. I guess it won't be long before Legolas sails to the shores of the Sword Coast from the west. :P
Oh ye gods, don't encourage the unoriginal folks any more! I still shudder at the time I encountered "Frohdoh" and "Legolass" while playing Lord of the Rings Online. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2018 : 23:45:27
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| Legolass? For real? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2018 : 00:45:24
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| Without having seen the book yet, this is all more grist for the mill of mystery that surrounds the gods and I think I'm probably fine with it. The gods should be mystery and not completely knowable. Is Gorm the same as Helm and Arvoreen. Perhaps, perhaps not. Is Zandilar combined with Bast. Who knows. Is At'ar really Beshaba or an angry Amaunator? It leads readily to heresies and flexibility that can easily be adopted by any campaign. At least that's my two cents without having seen it yet. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2018 : 01:02:53
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Without having seen the book yet, this is all more grist for the mill of mystery that surrounds the gods and I think I'm probably fine with it. The gods should be mystery and not completely knowable. Is Gorm the same as Helm and Arvoreen. Perhaps, perhaps not. Is Zandilar combined with Bast. Who knows. Is At'ar really Beshaba or an angry Amaunator? It leads readily to heresies and flexibility that can easily be adopted by any campaign. At least that's my two cents without having seen it yet.
Considering that Sharess has yet to be mentioned in any 5e source (AFAIK), but that Zandilar and Bast are, it seems to me that they are separate again. I mean, someone new to D&D would know nothing of Sharess, but would instead know about Zandilar and Bast at this point. This leads me to think that WotC have made their choice. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 22 May 2018 01:04:00 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2018 : 01:41:25
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This product is indicative and a culmination of all that IMO is wrong with the D&D game viz a viz clerics and their deities since some bright spark way back in the day decided to stat out gods in Deities and Demigods. Instead of focusing on the cleric class, religion, worship, prayers, ceremonial garb et. al. and all the religious paraphernalia that goes with it, we have delved for decades into the origins and histories of the gods - for absolutely zero gaming benefit in my opinion. I can't help but think that it's a subconscious extension and projection of man's own burning question of "is there more?". And the way the fans latch onto the topic and make serious efforts to "explain" the gods, seems to indicate that it's not restricted to the designers. While I'd never tell anyone how to run their game, participate in the game or even think about the game, I can't help but think that ultimately, this is wasted effort. Give me details on a deity's church, what a day in the temple appears like, what the priests wear, what prayers are uttered by his worshipers and clerics, festivals, holy days, etc etc rather than whether that deity exists in multiple campaign settings or came to the Realms in X DR. That stuff helps MY game, not thread after thread of deific metaphysical, unending discourse.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2018 : 03:09:59
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To me, deities are characters. They're another class of character entirely, but they're still characters: they've got personalities and motives and their actions and decisions can drive the story forward.
And for me, it's the characters that make the setting. So I want to know more about the gods.
That said, once you've given me that info, give me something else. Don't keep going back and retconning this, and changing that, and all that rot. Give me something new.
WotC has not been all that good about doing the latter, and in fact I think they're specifically trying not to -- because leaving things vague lets them play Schrodinger's Edition with all of us. Things might be as they were in 4E, or they might have changed... You decide! Not committing means they don't piss off the other side. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 22 May 2018 04:38:55 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2018 : 04:49:40
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| They have distanced enough from 4e. While they have retained a few of its additions, all that 4e took away (and 3e, and even some of 2e actually), they restored. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2018 : 08:49:53
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| sooo um is zandilar is back??? |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2018 : 10:20:03
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Whoever writes up gods really needs to look at SKR's deity articles from Dragon as well as Pathfinder's writeups. I want myths of the clergy, unique deity-themed spells, heralds, servants, duties of the clergy, sayings of the clergy, festivals, holy vestments, teachings of the clergy and so on.
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Ephiron
Acolyte
Czech Republic
9 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2018 : 11:20:36
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
This product is indicative and a culmination of all that IMO is wrong with the D&D game viz a viz clerics and their deities since some bright spark way back in the day decided to stat out gods in Deities and Demigods. Instead of focusing on the cleric class, religion, worship, prayers, ceremonial garb et. al. and all the religious paraphernalia that goes with it, we have delved for decades into the origins and histories of the gods - for absolutely zero gaming benefit in my opinion. I can't help but think that it's a subconscious extension and projection of man's own burning question of "is there more?". And the way the fans latch onto the topic and make serious efforts to "explain" the gods, seems to indicate that it's not restricted to the designers. While I'd never tell anyone how to run their game, participate in the game or even think about the game, I can't help but think that ultimately, this is wasted effort. Give me details on a deity's church, what a day in the temple appears like, what the priests wear, what prayers are uttered by his worshipers and clerics, festivals, holy days, etc etc rather than whether that deity exists in multiple campaign settings or came to the Realms in X DR. That stuff helps MY game, not thread after thread of deific metaphysical, unending discourse.
-- George Krashos
Exactly this! I'd take lore about priestly undergarments over deity's epic origin myths any day!
The way I see gods, all the lore about them is written by mere mortals and what do they know? It's up to everyone to choose what they believe. There are no absolute facts. |
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Tome of Foes FR Lore
