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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2017 :  17:52:26  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Okay, so I am doing research for some of the projects I am tinkering with, and I ran into one of my 'Pet Peeves'. This is a fairly new peeve for me - I only became aware of it while playing Fallout 4 (A LOT) a little over a year ago - accents.

No, I am not talking about the four dwarf 'clans' (Irish, Scottish, German, and Russian), I am talking about something much more normal... and therefore, insidious. Humans having accents they shouldn't have. Its probably been something I've overlooked in the past 45+ years of reading because its not so noticeable while reading - its not like you actually hear the accent - so you just brush it aside. But in Fallout 4 your character emerges from the Vault 210 years AFTER the nuclear holocaust. Civilization is GONE, and its basically tiny settlements (you get to help/build) and lots and lots of raiders and monsters everywhere in between (so, REALLY 'Points-of-Light' to the extreme).

In some of those settlements - and most notably the one 'city' (a baseball arena with maybe a 100 people) - I came across people with ACCENTS - Russian accents, Hispanic accents, etc. WTF?

How the hell are people growing up thousands of miles away from their 'homelands' (which may not even exist anymore), 210 years later, and still have friggin' accents?
They've never even been to those places where those accents originated, and they've grown up among people without those accents! You don't INHERIT an accent!!! The way you speak comes from where you grew up!

So since noticing it in that game, I've come across it in game material a couple of times. About two weeks ago I came across the phenomena in an FR product for the first time (someone born in Waterdeep speaking with a Calishite accent, IIRC). Then this morning I came across it again, in a generic adventure from Dungeon Magazine. It makes it so much worse because its part of the backstory of the main plot-point - the personage you are looking for was picked-on as a child because people could tell by his accent he "wasn't from around here". His father might have had a rustic way of speaking (called a 'mountain man', so fantasy hillbilly, maybe?), but his mother was a refugee from a far-off desert land. He was BORN in the city. Unless his mom kept him locked-up in a closet with no contact with anyone else but her, he should NOT have an accent from HER homeland!!! And as I said, his 'accent' is a major part of the backstory... YEESH.

When I was a kid, I used to think RPG designers were the smartest people in the world. To put it as nicely as possible, that viewpoint has lost its luster. I can understand getting some science wrong once-in-awhile (not really... not in this day-and-age of instant research), but something that should just be common sense?

So, whats YOUR game-related 'pet Peeve'? It could be FR, or it could be generic (as mine is), or it could even just be fantasy/Scify genre-related (no RW stories - I understand that person in front of you needs to turn off their blinker).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Feb 2017 17:54:07

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2017 :  23:34:30  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To be fair, people can -- at least to some extent -- "inherit" accents from their parents. I used to work with a girl whose parents were Welsh, and despite growing up in the US, she had a very strong accent.

Though 200 years of inheriting accents is likely pushing it.

My biggest thing is poorly considered names... Caledon Caldorian and Mari Almarien are horrible names to me, because of the repetition of sounds. And I also hate the name Jack Ravenswild. Jack is not a Realms name, and someone from Raven's Bluff having "raven" in his name is ridiculous. It'd be like having Fred Watersword from Waterdeep.

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2017 :  00:05:01  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd expect linguistic drift to be minimized in a Fallout-style Vault because the inhabitants would learn basically everything they need to know from their sacred archives - books, tapes, films, videos, recordings, whatever. See how readily Vault dwellers absorb information and learn skills when reading a Big Book of Science. Languages naturally drift and evolve on a continuing basis ... unless they are constrained by unchangeable rules of grammar and strictly defined vocabulary which is only intended to describe limited things (like the not-so-many things found in the small world of a Vault).

But at the same time it's easy to imagine each Vault developing its own variant subculture, dialects, etc. Vault dwellers might easily speak their unique "common" tongue informally and use their shared "ancient" tongue in formal or technical situations. I imagine that some Vault dwellers come from families, clans, or gangs which speak other languages like Spanish or Russian not in use outside the group, and preserving the language through generations is perfectly reasonable - my parents did it for me, I did it for my children, they'll likely do the same for my grandchildren.

210 years of inheriting "pure" accents might stretch things - how would the "English" accent of speakers from 1807 sound to our "English" ears?

The handwavium approach is to simply assume that the player's interaction with the setting is "translated" through the character. A Fallout Vault dweller might recognize accents as Spanish or Russian - and they might actually be whatever Spanish or Russian have become after 210 years - even when the Fallout player thinks it sounds entirely wrong or misplaced. The same holds true of the Realms setting, or really any setting from any genre where our particular parochial version of English is not spoken.

[/Ayrik]
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6641 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2017 :  01:44:09  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My children had accents when they first started speaking as we spoke to them in Greek a lot and they had plenty of exposure to older relatives who did have accents. Kindegarten and school cured that quickly, but they did have accents. It's a factor of environment.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 13 Feb 2017 01:44:47
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6641 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2017 :  01:45:20  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My children had accents when they first started speaking as we spoke to them in a Greek a lot and they had plenty of exposure to older relatives who did have accents. Kindegarten and school cured that quickly, but they did have accents. It's a factor of environment.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2017 :  04:23:03  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, thats my point. I know plenty of Hispanic people here in NY with heavy Spanish accents, BUUUUUUUUTTT... they grew-up in mostly hispanic neighborhoods. Most of their early interaction was with people with the accent, thus, they 'inherited' the accent. The same would be true in an FR setting, with any race. For example, Bruenor Battlehammer was a child in Mithral Hall, and then mostly associated with other dwarves from there, for years and years. It makes perfect sense for him to have an accent. But if he had escaped to Waterdeep instead, and grew up around humans instead of other dwarves, HE WOULD NOT HAVE THE ACCENT HE DOES.

In any human culture, if you grow-up in a 'ghetto', you are surrounded by people of your families culture. NYC is full of that - you can even have 3rd generation people sporting an accent because of it.

But if you are brought to somewhere AS A BABY, and only your parents (and in the case of that Dungeon module, ONE parent) had the accent, unless that parent kept you locked in a box growing up, you would speak like the rest of the people around you. There was NO-ONE else with that culture/language anywhere near him (and if even the father didn't know her language, who the heck is she speaking it to?)

As for Fallout, JUST NO. I wasn't talking about Vault Dwellers at all. I'm talking about normal people who are living in the wastelands. unless there is some weird community of ONLY ex-Russians living somewhere in the WASTES, then the two brothers in the bar should NOT have a Russian accent (because they sure as hell didn't come from Rusia... no-one even knows if there still IS a Russia 210 years later). There also a Middle-Eastern guy (a gun-dealer, naturally) who's wife and daughter do NOT have accents. So where is he from? Do they still have functional airports over there? (and even if they did, there are none to receive them on the U.S. side). It just makes no sense.

And all of Fallout 4 takes place in Boston, and not a single person sports a Bostonian accent.
The one accent I would expect to still find.

Being from NY - a city that more 2/3 the people are more comfortable speaking non-English languages - I hear more accents everyday than most anyone else here. And I can tell you with some certainty that the children - unless 'confined' to a ghetto (which mostly doesn't happen anymore) - do not have the accents of their parents. Growing up, MOST of my friends parents had some sort of accent (my grandparents all spoke other language, but my parents had ZERO accent). You sound like where YOU are from, NOT where your parents were from (unless you were locked under the stairs like Harry Potter).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Feb 2017 06:14:04
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2017 :  04:39:32  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Another pet peeve, that I just saw on the Facebook... A character that is primarily a larcenous sneaky type is a ROGUE, dang it, not a ROUGE!

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6641 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2017 :  05:06:59  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Another pet peeve, that I just saw on the Facebook... A character that is primarily a larcenous sneaky type is a ROGUE, dang it, not a ROUGE!



Yes, but can the ROUGE manage to steal from the dragon's HORDE?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2017 :  06:16:41  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And then there's the short, French thief-type, the Molin Rouge.

They make good adventurers, because they are always 'Too loose' for la' Trek.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Feb 2017 06:17:40
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2017 :  10:08:19  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Another pet peeve, that I just saw on the Facebook... A character that is primarily a larcenous sneaky type is a ROGUE, dang it, not a ROUGE!



Yes, but can the ROUGE manage to steal from the dragon's HORDE?

-- George Krashos



Krash, that was just mean.

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2017 :  23:19:52  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rouges in D&D have always bugged me, too. As have dragon hordes and barbarian hoards.
And demonds or daemonds. Orks. Hobbits. Elfin and dwarfin and dwarfs instead of elven and dwarven and dwarves.

I have little confidence in people who can't correctly say/spell the most fundamental things about their own species, profession, tools, or objectives.

Although I confess I'm okay with wizzards.

[/Ayrik]
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2017 :  18:11:01  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Magick is pretty cool too.

And lets not forget Drizzit.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Feb 2017 18:11:23
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2441 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2017 :  18:25:50  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess one of my pet peeves is the "racial alignment". Why a whole race would behave and think exactly the same? I know there are social norms, but there individuals do not necessarily follow them or like them. And social norms are imposed by culture not by race.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2017 :  18:34:24  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For me its like this...

'Racial Alignment' = 'the way a DM is supposed to present that race'

It also means - 'the opposite way an author is supposed to present that race, because their guy is 'hella kewl'.



"Hi, I'm Hella Kewl, lawful-good tiefling of rainbow-colored sprinkles and fuzzy kittens".

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sno4wy
Senior Scribe

USA
466 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2017 :  19:43:58  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rouges are overpowdered.

>_>
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2017 :  20:05:25  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

For me its like this...

'Racial Alignment' = 'the way a DM is supposed to present that race'

It also means - 'the opposite way an author is supposed to present that race, because their guy is 'hella kewl'.



"Hi, I'm Hella Kewl, lawful-good tiefling of rainbow-colored sprinkles and fuzzy kittens".



Dang it, now I've got to go scrap that character...

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2017 :  21:36:57  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

Rouges are overpowdered.

Magnificently done ... but still not enough to make me want Rouges in my game, lol.

[/Ayrik]
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2017 :  02:14:22  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Rouges in D&D have always bugged me, too. As have dragon hordes and barbarian hoards.
And demonds or daemonds. Orks. Hobbits. Elfin and dwarfin and dwarfs instead of elven and dwarven and dwarves.

I have little confidence in people who can't correctly say/spell the most fundamental things about their own species, profession, tools, or objectives.

Although I confess I'm okay with wizzards.



I would have to agree with this...though I am not okay with wizzards lol

Sweet water and light laughter
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Sturma
Acolyte

USA
7 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2017 :  10:15:18  Show Profile Send Sturma a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

Rouges are overpowdered.


Bite your tounge.


In Ferro Veritas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2017 :  17:27:35  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There's an author that is kind of a pet peeve for me... But that's because her stuff bugs me. Some of it, depending on her co-author, is good, but other stuff, not so much.

One of the things that bugged me was a book where an untrained Bard -- and yes, it was capitalized -- was more capable of powerful magic than a skilled Wizard. Another book, co-authored by the same person, had a race of snake-people called Slavers. That was how everyone referred to the race, as if an entire race would collectively be employed in the same job.

And I was bugged by an ad referring to her that made her sound like she was all that and a bag of chips, when my experience with her stuff made it clear that it all depended on her co-author. And almost all of her stuff was co-authored, by a rotating cast of authors, which made it seem odd to me that she was described in such glowing terms.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2017 :  18:05:03  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dare I say it? I think Ed is at his best when teamed-up with another author.

There, I said it. His stuff with Elaine was top-notch (but then again, everything Elaine touches is golden - she is so 'in tune' with the Realms its amazing).

I feel like they keep a lot of the 'Ed drift' (c'mon guys... you all know what I am talking about...) out of the books. Its like going on vacation with someone - you can't keep running off on your own to look at stuff that caught your eye, because you can't go dragging the others along with you at every turn.

On the other hand, that 'Ed Drift' is what makes things like the Volo's Guides so special. World-Builder extraordinaire indeed.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2017 :  20:03:42  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Dare I say it? I think Ed is at his best when teamed-up with another author.



I have publicly stated, more than once, that Ed's fiction does not work for me. I love his world-building, but his novels make me feel like I've walked into the middle of a movie that I've never even heard of.

The author I was referring to in my post was Mercedes Lackey. I once told my wife we'd have words if she ever bought me any Mercedes Lackey books.

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Varl
Learned Scribe

USA
284 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2017 :  01:23:05  Show Profile Send Varl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So, whats YOUR game-related 'pet Peeve'? It could be FR, or it could be generic (as mine is), or it could even just be fantasy/Scify genre-related


It's funny you mention languages cause one of my pet peeves is acronym dialect in online RPGs. See? I just did it! Arrgghh!

Sometimes I'll be playing one and someone in chat will spew out a slough of acronyms that just makes my eyes roll. So, even though I seldom respond to them, I have on occasion decided to make fun of them by typing entire sentences in acronym. TTAASTWTSDS, B.

I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2017 :  16:05:39  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Dare I say it? I think Ed is at his best when teamed-up with another author.

There, I said it. His stuff with Elaine was top-notch (but then again, everything Elaine touches is golden - she is so 'in tune' with the Realms its amazing).

I feel like they keep a lot of the 'Ed drift' (c'mon guys... you all know what I am talking about...) out of the books. Its like going on vacation with someone - you can't keep running off on your own to look at stuff that caught your eye, because you can't go dragging the others along with you at every turn.

On the other hand, that 'Ed Drift' is what makes things like the Volo's Guides so special. World-Builder extraordinaire indeed.



I've thought much the same. I won't put myself up there with Ed, but I think I also have a need to work with others to produce quality work. Sometimes you just have to bounce an idea against 3 or 4 walls until it makes sense.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2017 :  16:07:31  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Dare I say it? I think Ed is at his best when teamed-up with another author.



I have publicly stated, more than once, that Ed's fiction does not work for me. I love his world-building, but his novels make me feel like I've walked into the middle of a movie that I've never even heard of.

The author I was referring to in my post was Mercedes Lackey. I once told my wife we'd have words if she ever bought me any Mercedes Lackey books.



Yeah, when I was younger (maybe 20 years ago), I really liked some of her stuff. Then it got old.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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