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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Nov 2016 : 01:04:37
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I realized that while I've see how deities were in 2e, post Time of Troubles I've never seen what they were like in 1e.
According to Matt Sernett, Sharess was actually an Aspect of Shar, and that the Bast Connection and stuff came later. So then I realized that I'm missing the back story as to why Sharess the Aspect of Sharess become the combined might of Zandilar/Bast/Felidae, that just happened to almost be absorbed by Shar, after which Shar and Sharess had a bad break up.
So that lead to what over things don't I know about 1e deities? Is there a book or fellow scribes can suggest or intel you can offer?
Thank You.
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Edited by - Gyor on 09 Nov 2016 01:08:04
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2016 : 01:20:35
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That I know Bast became known as Sharess only after Shar had begun to corrupt her with the goal of subsuming her (although she failed, and Sharess never became her aspect, because Sune ruined Shar's plans). Some people thought that Sharess was an aspect of Shar, but she never was one, and Sharess became the name that Faerunians used to call her (this comes from 2e powers and pantheons). Where did Matt Sernett say that?
EDI: it's in the 1e FRCS. However, I think they did a good job in making and explaining that connection with Bast in 2e. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 09 Nov 2016 01:36:35 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2016 : 09:46:49
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Well, the theft of the Tablets of fate was only one reason that Ao cast down the gods. Ao also was punishing them for not acting in accordance with their portfolios and seeing their worshipers as a means to an end, rather than as the reason for their existence.
As for Sharess, Shar WANTED her as an aspect, so she could claim dominion over loss caused by lust. If only Sune hadn't interfered, she might have been successful too. Up until that point, Sharess was Shar's dark, corrupted plaything.
On a different note, 1e dwarf gods refused to accept priests of the opposite sex to themselves. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
Edited by - hashimashadoo on 09 Nov 2016 09:48:12 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2016 : 11:37:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
That I know Bast became known as Sharess only after Shar had begun to corrupt her with the goal of subsuming her (although she failed, and Sharess never became her aspect, because Sune ruined Shar's plans). Some people thought that Sharess was an aspect of Shar, but she never was one, and Sharess became the name that Faerunians used to call her (this comes from 2e powers and pantheons). Where did Matt Sernett say that?
EDI: it's in the 1e FRCS. However, I think they did a good job in making and explaining that connection with Bast in 2e.
Twitter. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2016 : 11:41:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
That I know Bast became known as Sharess only after Shar had begun to corrupt her with the goal of subsuming her (although she failed, and Sharess never became her aspect, because Sune ruined Shar's plans). Some people thought that Sharess was an aspect of Shar, but she never was one, and Sharess became the name that Faerunians used to call her (this comes from 2e powers and pantheons). Where did Matt Sernett say that?
EDI: it's in the 1e FRCS. However, I think they did a good job in making and explaining that connection with Bast in 2e.
I been doing so research I think the shift happened in 2e Powers and Pantheons that Sharess became linked to Bast, Zandilar, and Felidea, and that alot of Sharess' details got fleshed out.
Even in the 2e Campaign Guide, it was ambigious whether or not Sharess was an aspect of Shar or a completely new deity, whereas by Powers and Pantheons Sharess was completely independant, but Eric used the time of troubles to explained that dynamic, and he really fleshed her out, and transformed from simply being this Goddess of Excess in 2e, who might be an aspect of Sharess, whose original entry in 2e mention excess, feasting, and orgies, but did not mention cats at all, never mind Bast, but by Powers and Pantheons she had all this background and details and this complex history, and her connection with Shar and peoples confusion was explained by Shar and Sharess being a former power couple, where Sharess dumped Shar after Shar tried to kill and absorb Sharess during the time of troubles. |
Edited by - Gyor on 09 Nov 2016 11:54:58 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2016 : 11:55:57
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
Well, the theft of the Tablets of fate was only one reason that Ao cast down the gods. Ao also was punishing them for not acting in accordance with their portfolios and seeing their worshipers as a means to an end, rather than as the reason for their existence.
As for Sharess, Shar WANTED her as an aspect, so she could claim dominion over loss caused by lust. If only Sune hadn't interfered, she might have been successful too. Up until that point, Sharess was Shar's dark, corrupted plaything.
On a different note, 1e dwarf gods refused to accept priests of the opposite sex to themselves.
I did not know that about the Dwarven Gods and they're priests thank you. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2016 : 12:09:10
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"This strange and radiant demipower is believed to have once been a part of Shar, the goddess of night and loss. She is a chaotic good deity worshipped in large urban areas such as Waterdeep, Calimport, and other cities along the Sword Coast. She is the goddess ofhedonism, lust, and sensual fulfillment, the Patroness of Festhalls. Sharess’s faith is still at the cult stage, with long worship services that resemble nothing so much as extended feasts and orgies, heavy on the pleasures of the flesh and light on the teachings of the spirit. Sharess puts even Sune and Lliira to shame with her excesses. The true nature and identity of Sharess is unrevealed. She may he a direct part of the evil Shar, preparing her following for despair and loss. Or she may be a new thing entirely: a goddess of excess. A goodly number of former followers of Waukeen who have rejected Lliira’s teachings have become interested in Sharess. Sharess’s symbol is the image ot feminine lips carved from dark amber or ruby and worn on a golden chain on the wrist or ankle"
See not a Cat reference anywhere. I find it facinating that a deity that is so associated with Cats now, had absolutely nothing to do with Cats at all.
I always found it odd why the original Old Empires supplement did not mention Bast at all. Its because Bast was a later addition, from when Eric I guess decided to make Sharess a Cat Goddess, and link her to Bast.
Was Zandilar who Sharess absorbed also an Eric Boyd creation, or did she come from Elsewhere. |
Edited by - Gyor on 09 Nov 2016 12:13:34 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2016 : 12:39:37
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"Like elemental cults, beast cults vary from location to location and from beast to beast. Two cults which venerate a “lion god” could be very different in their ceremonies, appearance, and powers. The beast cults believe in the existence of perfect forms of animals. A dog cult, for example, believes there is a perfect dog, who is leader of all other dogs. A cat cult believes there is a perfect cat, who is master of all cats regardless of breed and size. They seek to tap into the power of these beings, who may or may not be gods in their own right. Perhaps with sufficient worship, one or more beast lords could achieve full-fledged godhood (though Malar, the Beast God, might have a few words on the matter). A typical beast cult could have the following characteristics:
Weapons Allowed: Any Two Armor Allowed: None Magical Items Allowed: Same as clerics Major Sphere: Animal Minor Sphere: Plant, Combat, Charm, Weather (any one) Granted Power (Choose one) • The cult priest can summon a number of creatures of the worshiped type. This will be 2-12 small creatures, 1-6 medium creatures, 1-2 large creatures, or 1 huge creature. The creatures arrive in 1-3 turns. • The cult priest can transform into the type of beast he worships, gaining all the abilities of that creature for 3-18 turns, once per week. Other Notes Beast cults may worship monsters in their “ultimate forms” as well as normal animals. Priests of these cults only gain their special abilities at level 10 or higher."
So there is presidence for the Cat Lord being worshipped (although he is not directly mention, the Beast Lords are highly hinted at here, amoung others). Interesting.
The above qoute is from Forgotten Realms adventure, and how this ties into the original discussion, is that I was talking to Matt Sernett on Twitter about the Cat Lord being the Tabaxi God instead of say Sharess or Zeltec, and he brough up the fact that Sharess originally may have been intended to be part of Shar and that there was no Bast connection originally (which feels like a lost piece of history, so this is interesting to me).
I also find it interesting that it was possible to worship the prefect form of any Beast or Monster in the realms and they had they own specialty priest for Beast Cults.
Actually Volo's guide feels bit like a call back to that in certain parts, like the Tabaxi worshipping the Cat Lord and the Mindflayer Deities being perfected forms. |
Edited by - Gyor on 09 Nov 2016 12:51:17 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11692 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2016 : 13:54:34
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| On the beast cults, a lot of them actually end up falling under other deities (Uthgar, Ulutiu, Rillifane Rallathil, even Ubtao I think) as "aspects" of some sort come to find out later. Some others actually fall to the actual deities like Lurue and Nobanion. However, what we "know" and what we know may be two different things. Personally, I'm not against a cat lord.... but the idea of their being a perfect bull and a perfect bear is less intriguing than having "Magnar the Bear".... even though realistically its the same damn thing. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2016 : 14:18:58
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Do you have the Old Gray Box... there were write ups for the Faerunian Pantheon there.
They were slightly expanded at the beginning of 2nd Ed. but most of the deity adjustments came with the Faiths and Avatars series - which drastically expanded things. |
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Howlsofhatred
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2016 : 15:57:44
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Do you have the Old Gray Box... there were write ups for the Faerunian Pantheon there.
They were slightly expanded at the beginning of 2nd Ed. but most of the deity adjustments came with the Faiths and Avatars series - which drastically expanded things.
Yes, I know about it. I have a box. The game fascinates me. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2016 : 20:10:25
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I would just fix it using my "nothing is at it seems (and yet IS)" theory of the Divine.
Shar is Shar. Shar's always been Shar (for the most part). She is an uber-deity, who probably started-out at least at Mystra's 2e/3e level of power (A 'High God' - one tier higher than a greater god, but not quite an 'Overgod'). And she's been around for tens of thousands of years.
Now, given the huge amount of time (by mortal reckoning), and the plethora of races that have fallen under her influence, she probably has many, MANY 'aspects'. Some she probably just ignores, or has forgotten, while others she gives a nod to, and yet others she may find interesting, or even worth encouraging (gods get bored). 'Sharess' is most likely one of these 'branches' (heresies?) of Shar that she grew fond of (kinky git that she is). At this point we can debate whether she actually ever was Sharess, or she just adopted an aspect of herself that mortals created, but we would be splitting hairs - there really is almost no difference, power-wise.
So Sharess (likely) languished as 'cult' for a long, long time, that Shar occasionally 'visited', just to keep it going, and even gave its few priests some spells. It was more like a 'vacation spot' for her, rather than actually being 'her', but once again, splitting meaningless hairs. It was an alias she like having around, nothing more. Then along comes Baast, desperate (in the way cats are) for affection. She not only has a fairly universal appeal on Toril (everyone loves 'catgirls'), but she is a part of the Mulan pantheons, and Shar wouldn't mind grabbing a piece of that (although she also {assumably} had some power within their 'sphere of influence', just as Mystra does, unlike Mystra, she is NOT directly worshiped there... not even with 'lip service'). So she invites Baast over for some tea...
One thing leads to another, and soon Baast is curled up in her lap purring away (get your mind out of the anime gutter  ). She offers Baast her 'kinky' aspect, telling her it would help her get (better?) established in Faerűn, with a true faith of her own. Baast like the idea as much as she loves a good belly-rub, and agrees to become Sharess in The Realms. Of course, like anything else Shar (or any deity for that matter) gets her hooks into, she still has a connection to it... which she plans on using to 'reel in' her Sharess aspect one day, with all of Baast's accumulated power as well. And as we know, that didn't quite work out. Shar never expected Baast to go and merge with another diety, and another, which diluted Shar's own Sharess aspect to the point where her connection became very weak... and failed.
Sharess itself may now be a fully independent deity from Baast (because Baast seems to have remained 'pure' in Mulhorand, free from the other deities' influences), or it just may be a separate aspect that is only quasi-autonomous. What it boils down to is that ALL stories are true... in part. If at some future point Shar can figure out a way of 'distilling' Zandilar & Felidae out of her old Sharess aspect (or if that happened by itself during the Spellplague), Shar may be able to re-exert her control over Sharess... or not.
I guess you can think of 'Sharess' as a costume that some dieites wear sometimes. Its just that Baast has grown found of it and isn't letting go. As far as Shar is concerned, 'Sharess' is stolen property. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Nov 2016 20:13:00 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11692 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2016 : 01:38:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I would just fix it using my "nothing is at it seems (and yet IS)" theory of the Divine.
Shar is Shar. Shar's always been Shar (for the most part). She is an uber-deity, who probably started-out at least at Mystra's 2e/3e level of power (A 'High God' - one tier higher than a greater god, but not quite an 'Overgod'). And she's been around for tens of thousands of years.
Now, given the huge amount of time (by mortal reckoning), and the plethora of races that have fallen under her influence, she probably has many, MANY 'aspects'. Some she probably just ignores, or has forgotten, while others she gives a nod to, and yet others she may find interesting, or even worth encouraging (gods get bored). 'Sharess' is most likely one of these 'branches' (heresies?) of Shar that she grew fond of (kinky git that she is). At this point we can debate whether she actually ever was Sharess, or she just adopted an aspect of herself that mortals created, but we would be splitting hairs - there really is almost no difference, power-wise.
So Sharess (likely) languished as 'cult' for a long, long time, that Shar occasionally 'visited', just to keep it going, and even gave its few priests some spells. It was more like a 'vacation spot' for her, rather than actually being 'her', but once again, splitting meaningless hairs. It was an alias she like having around, nothing more. Then along comes Baast, desperate (in the way cats are) for affection. She not only has a fairly universal appeal on Toril (everyone loves 'catgirls'), but she is a part of the Mulan pantheons, and Shar wouldn't mind grabbing a piece of that (although she also {assumably} had some power within their 'sphere of influence', just as Mystra does, unlike Mystra, she is NOT directly worshiped there... not even with 'lip service'). So she invites Baast over for some tea...
One thing leads to another, and soon Baast is curled up in her lap purring away (get your mind out of the anime gutter ). She offers Baast her 'kinky' aspect, telling her it would help her get (better?) established in Faerűn, with a true faith of her own. Baast like the idea as much as she loves a good belly-rub, and agrees to become Sharess in The Realms. Of course, like anything else Shar (or any deity for that matter) gets her hooks into, she still has a connection to it... which she plans on using to 'reel in' her Sharess aspect one day, with all of Baast's accumulated power as well. And as we know, that didn't quite work out. Shar never expected Baast to go and merge with another diety, and another, which diluted Shar's own Sharess aspect to the point where her connection became very weak... and failed.
Sharess itself may now be a fully independent deity from Baast (because Baast seems to have remained 'pure' in Mulhorand, free from the other deities' influences), or it just may be a separate aspect that is only quasi-autonomous. What it boils down to is that ALL stories are true... in part. If at some future point Shar can figure out a way of 'distilling' Zandilar & Felidae out of her old Sharess aspect (or if that happened by itself during the Spellplague), Shar may be able to re-exert her control over Sharess... or not.
I guess you can think of 'Sharess' as a costume that some dieites wear sometimes. Its just that Baast has grown found of it and isn't letting go. As far as Shar is concerned, 'Sharess' is stolen property.
I'm gonna put forth my stamp of approval for this version of things. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2016 : 14:19:38
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I just reviewed the FRCG 2e and Powers and Pantheons 2e.
In FRCG its says Sharess is worshipped with feasts and orgies, no mention of cats, it suggests Sharess could be an independant demipower or an aspect of Shar.
By Powers and Pantheons it turns out Sharess is Bast, who ends up absorbing Felidae a Beast Cult deity and then later on Zandilar the Dancer.
She still wasn't know as Sharess yet, it was around the fall of Myth Drannor that Bast fell under the sway of Shar, and started learning the darker aspects of pleasure and its when Shar and Bast became know as the Maidens of the Forbidden Fruit that Bast took the name Sharess which was actually given to her by the worshippers of Shar, she ends up heavily in the liturgy of Shar. It gets to the point eventually that Shar's worshippers teach people that Sharess is just an aspect of Shar, till Sharess' cult greatly diminshes.
Then Sune frees Sharess with water from the evergold, and Sharess takes back her vitality and starts rebuilding her church across the sword coast, Mulhorand, and the Yuirwood, possibly other places.
Sharess hangs with Sune, she independant still but its not till the Spellplague that Sharess actually starts working for Sune as an Exarch.
Sharess isn't mentioned in 5e, but its mentioned that the Mulhorandi Pantheon liberated Mulhorand from Imaskar with help from Nezram. So the Mulhorandi Pantheon is Incarnated again, we don't know if that includes Sharess/Bast or not.
Interestingly Bast/Sharess/Zandilar/Felidae dwelled on the Material Plane until the time of troubles, adventurering, likely because Bast was locked out of them like the rest of the Mulhorandi Pantheon until then. Also interesting to note, technically Mask is an memeber of the Mulhorandi Pantheon, in the same deal that allowed Sharess to join the Faerunian Pantheon.
Also surprising is that Bast didn't drop the name Sharess, which its associotions with Shar and the Maidens of the Forbidden Fruit, when she became free of Shar, but rather embraced the name. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2016 : 16:31:01
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| I wonder if some Sharrans still pray to Sharess thinking mistakenly that she's an aspect or still a servant of Shar, prayers to the Maidens of the Forbidden Fruit. |
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xaviera
Learned Scribe
Canada
149 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 16:34:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Also surprising is that Bast didn't drop the name Sharess, which its associotions with Shar and the Maidens of the Forbidden Fruit, when she became free of Shar, but rather embraced the name.
Brand-name recognition ;)
Keeping the 'Sharess' name hints at darker pleasures and a willingness to go beyond what's permitted in 'polite' society - as does the name 'Maidens of the Forbidden Fruit', for that matter. For those who are seeking a little extra titillation, it's known that she tends to straddle that line between good and evil and that crypto-Sharrans (and presumably Loviatarans as well) can be found among her followers.
Either she doesn't care and is simply seeking a larger base of adherents, and/or she's hoping to win away from Shar's orbit some of those who followed the collective worship of the Maidens.
Her name is by now well-enough known that the 'Shar-' part of it is probably a negative only to those who are extremely goody-goody and who wouldn't be interested in her faith anyway (save, perhaps, for the occasional late-night 'private prayer session'...).
quote:
I wonder if some Sharrans still pray to Sharess thinking mistakenly that she's an aspect or still a servant of Shar, prayers to the Maidens of the Forbidden Fruit.
I wouldn't be at all surprised.
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Writings on Sharess: Thoughts & Prayers by Xaviera ~ High Priestess of Sharess |
Edited by - xaviera on 25 Nov 2016 16:35:55 |
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Deities in 1e Realms
