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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Mar 2004 : 03:22:03
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Abeir-Toril: Round or Flat? I was rereading Twilight Falling by Paul S. Kemp when it hit me; The object Cale carries is round. Think of the possibilities, though. This may mean that a PC can sail from Kara-Tur to Evermeet, just by sailing west. A Zakharan might be able to sail to Waterdeep without going around Faerūn. What is your opinion?
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The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2004 : 03:33:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowlord
Abeir-Toril: Round or Flat? I was rereading Twilight Falling by Paul S. Kemp when it hit me; The object Cale carries is round. Think of the possibilities, though. This may mean that a PC can sail from Kara-Tur to Evermeet, just by sailing west. A Zakharan might be able to sail to Waterdeep without going around Faerūn. What is your opinion?
It's round. :) The interactive atlus shows it as round and I believe also the Realmspace sourcebook backs that image up...... |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2004 : 06:56:37
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| Someone sailing from Kara-Tur to Evermeet might find some of the other continents to be in the way, like Maztica... Page 231 of the FRCS shows those other, undecribed continents. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2004 : 12:02:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowlord
Abeir-Toril: Round or Flat? I was rereading Twilight Falling by Paul S. Kemp when it hit me; The object Cale carries is round. Think of the possibilities, though. This may mean that a PC can sail from Kara-Tur to Evermeet, just by sailing west. A Zakharan might be able to sail to Waterdeep without going around Faerūn. What is your opinion?
My opinion on this is that it has reminded me of one of my favorite parts of Terry Pratchett's Colour of Magic -
quote:
"See...
Great A'Tuin the turtle comes, swimming slowly through the interstellar gulf, hydrogen frost on his ponderous limbs, his huge and ancient shell pocked with meteor craters. Through sea-sized eyes that are crusted with rheum and asteroid dust He stares fixedly at the Destination.
In a brain bigger than a city, with geological slowness, He thinks only of the Weight.
Most of the weight is of course accounted for by Berilia, Tubul, Great T'Phon and Jerakeen, the four giant elephants upon whose broad and star-tanned shoulders the disc of the World rests, garlanded by the long waterfall at its vast circumference and domed by the baby-blue vault of Heaven.
Astropsychology has been, as yet, unable to establish what they think about..."
Anyway, back to the discussion...
Yes, both the interactive Atlas, and the Realmspace tome make it pretty clear that Toril is a sphere (if not perfectly round - in fact no planet is actually a perfect sphere anyway, thanks to it's rotation, and to a lesser extent the force of gravity...but that is a discussion for a different forum).
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2004 : 16:23:43
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Silly people. Everyone knows Abeir-Toril is flat. Sail past the unknownlands and you'll fall off the edge. Then sail into a place: ' Without form and void' and there will be naught but 'darkness upon the face of the deep' |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
Edited by - The Cardinal on 21 Mar 2004 16:24:33 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2004 : 18:09:07
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First evidence: there are lunar eclipses with a round shadow. That can only consistantly occur with a spherical shape acting as the occulting body.
Second evidence: existance of a horizon. If the planet were not spherical, then objects would never disappear, only appear to get smaller and smaller.
Third evidence: not actually listed in any FR text, novel or sourcebook, but it's something that can be done. Measure the angle of a bright star at a particular time. Move a hundred miles in any direction. Measure the same angle the next night. You'll find that the angle changes. (You can actually measure the surface area of the planet in this way. The Greeks had a surprisingly good approximation for ours.) |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2004 : 22:30:44
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codswallop - it all down to magic.....
  
cheers
Damian
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
First evidence: there are lunar eclipses with a round shadow. That can only consistantly occur with a spherical shape acting as the occulting body.
Second evidence: existance of a horizon. If the planet were not spherical, then objects would never disappear, only appear to get smaller and smaller.
Third evidence: not actually listed in any FR text, novel or sourcebook, but it's something that can be done. Measure the angle of a bright star at a particular time. Move a hundred miles in any direction. Measure the same angle the next night. You'll find that the angle changes. (You can actually measure the surface area of the planet in this way. The Greeks had a surprisingly good approximation for ours.)
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 17:36:45
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| Occam's Razor, gentlemen. Occam's Razor. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2004 : 04:38:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Occam's Razor, gentlemen. Occam's Razor.
Which product is that magic item detailed in? |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2004 : 18:14:53
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| The Dungeon of Complicated Problems With Simple Answers, I believe. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2004 : 03:53:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
The Dungeon of Complicated Problems With Simple Answers, I believe.
They are probably saving that product for 4th edition. |
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Richtin
Acolyte
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2004 : 23:37:58
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| in the atlas of the Forgotten Realms(book number 8442)on page X it shows Abeir-Toril as a globe. |
"Where in the Nine Hells did you ever get the notion that I would fight fair?" |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2004 : 23:52:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Richtin
in the atlas of the Forgotten Realms(book number 8442)on page X it shows Abeir-Toril as a globe.
Yeah, but is that a 3rd edition or 3.5 edition product? So, how do we know the world being a globe is canon anymore? |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2004 : 04:36:44
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Yeah, but is that a 3rd edition or 3.5 edition product? So, how do we know the world being a globe is canon anymore?
Um actually I think it's a 1e product or a very early 2e product. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 01 Apr 2004 04:37:38 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2004 : 06:38:55
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Um actually I think it's a 1e product or a very early 2e product. :)
Exactly, how can you trust any information from a product without any prestige classes? |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2004 : 07:25:25
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Exactly, how can you trust any information from a product without any prestige classes?
HAH. :) It's kind of sad actually. If I was a new DM to 3e's realms I would never have touched the setting. There is just some thing missing from 3e's FR books and if I didn't have the old material or was a new DM, I would not run a game in FR....
Fluff is what made the Realms, the Realms...... To bad 3e really has removed that from the setting. :( |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2004 : 09:31:33
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| I have to agree with Kuje31. They have done the Realms a serious disservice by de-emphasizing the fluff that made it so unique and wonderful in the first place. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2004 : 13:34:04
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So do I.
*holds up copies of Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark and Underdark*
*gestures at Underdark*
Interesting game mechanics, and one of the best WEs.
*holds Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark higher*
More information, better style, better atmosphere, more focus... |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2004 : 17:44:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
*holds Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark higher*
More information, better style, better atmosphere, more focus...
Agreed. I like your post, it reminds me of product comparison features on the news.  |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2004 : 23:39:18
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| Exactly what I was trying for, Sirius. |
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Richtin
Acolyte
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2004 : 23:58:07
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| The Fogotten Realms Atlas is 2nd edition!!! |
"Where in the Nine Hells did you ever get the notion that I would fight fair?" |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 05:56:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Richtin
The Fogotten Realms Atlas is 2nd edition!!!
Not even third? Or first? But 2nd edition!!!
Not sure I can take the product with any degree of seriousness if that's the case. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 06:00:23
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Richtin
The Fogotten Realms Atlas is 2nd edition!!!
Not even third? Or first? But 2nd edition!!!
Not sure I can take the product with any degree of seriousness if that's the case.
Very true, Sirius. I've heard rumors it doesn't even contain a race returned from a long isolation! How could they even think of publishing a supplement without one of those?! |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 06:18:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Very true, Sirius. I've heard rumors it doesn't even contain a race returned from a long isolation! How could they even think of publishing a supplement without one of those?!
LOL!! Nice to find someone else who can view annoying things with a sense of humor. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 08:19:24
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
LOL!! Nice to find someone else who can view annoying things with a sense of humor.
Come now, if it didn't include a new elven race either, then it's worthless!! |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 08:42:36
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Fzoul has a globe of Faerun in Curse of the Azue bonds (The Module not the novel)
Which means Faerunians knew the world was round even before they discovered the "new world" ie Maztica |
I am the King of Rome, and above grammar
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 17:24:00
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| We still say Toril is Square and flat.... maybe a bit of a curve to it (so things disappear over the horizon) and everyone knows that Toril is at the Center of the mutliverse and everything revolves around it, so the curved shape that causes an eclipse is umm the curvaceous form of Shar.... and who would measure the angle of a star? So HA! the world is Square flat and has a slight curve. |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 19:06:08
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Flat and curved? Ah, so now you're getting into higher spatial dimensions, are you? You'd need at least four spatial dimensions for that to happen in the perspective of a three-dimensional viewpoint.
Seriously, I'm not sure how you could think of the planet as flat. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 19:17:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Flat and curved? Ah, so now you're getting into higher spatial dimensions, are you? You'd need at least four spatial dimensions for that to happen in the perspective of a three-dimensional viewpoint.
Seriously, I'm not sure how you could think of the planet as flat.
Especially considering that many natives have been into space, and seen the planet from space. I'm sure they'd notice if it was flat instead of round. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Richtin
Acolyte
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 23:47:13
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how can you possibly think it is curved and flat????
it is a sphere because it has polar ice caps, or at least one!
i mean look at the atlas people!!! |
"Where in the Nine Hells did you ever get the notion that I would fight fair?" |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 01:46:01
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| Simply really. Like an omelette or pancake with a fork in the middle as support. The unsupported ends saga bit giving a curve to the surface. We have yet to see a quest that goes to the edge of the maps and returns on the opposite side. |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Abeir-Toril: Round or Flat?
