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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Feb 2015 : 20:12:02
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Anyone know if Adamantine and Mithral that has already been forged can be recast? Whether a shield or a support beam of adamantine, can they be melted and "recycled"?
I have an idea for an unusual dwarven mine wherein they would scavenge their "mine" for pieces and parts, melt them, and cast them into trade bars to be sent to the hold proper. Just don't know if Adamantine and Mithral can be reused. ;)
Thanks!
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2015 : 20:43:20
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| I don't think it's ever been mentioned in a source but I don't see why you couldn't. As long as it's not enchanted at least. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2015 : 21:48:47
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| It can be reworked, even magical. It should be noted that reworking magical breaks the magic if reforged. The logic follows from damaged items might be repaired, which requires forge work. If metal can be heated enough to repair a weapon or armor it certainly can be shaped into trade bars for some one else to use later to repair items. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2015 : 21:50:17
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| Enchanted metal would be an interesting take. Picture the mithral banding on a chest that's partially from a sentient sword. And then it starts yelling at the thieves who try to take its contents. Or blasts off a spell at them. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2015 : 22:17:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
It can be reworked, even magical. It should be noted that reworking magical breaks the magic if reforged. The logic follows from damaged items might be repaired, which requires forge work. If metal can be heated enough to repair a weapon or armor it certainly can be shaped into trade bars for some one else to use later to repair items.
Mithral I get, it's a pure metal (or should be except in rare cases). Would you think Adamantine separates into its respective alloys? Or maybe that would require a higher degree of heat? And would the melting process introduce impurities or weakness to the metal?
If it does introduce impurities, the dwarven ("correct") way of handling this should be to smelt them down to their base alloys, separate into their individual metals and combine them again (in the forging process) into the proper metal yes? (provided this is possible of course). |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2015 : 22:22:30
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| Looking online, it appears in the real world steel recycling process, steel doesn't lose its strength. So maybe they could just all be melted into molten goo and recast as trade bars. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2015 : 00:21:41
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In The Crystal Shard, Bruenor Battlehammer took a squared-off block of the purest mithral from his personal cache to forge into the warhammer, Aegis-fang. It is unclear whether the dwarven mines beneath Kelvin's Cairn in Icewind Dale would have held enough mithral ore to produce this amount of pure mithral, or if Clan Battlehammer had brought the metal from Himral Uldoun, Mithral Hall, on its way to the Dale. But for it to be so pure indicates that raw ore had been very thoroughly smelted to remove impurities. And then for the block to have been squared off like that indicates that it probably had been previously forged, or both heated and hammered into shape.
Bruenor set the squared block on his personal anvil and forged it into the head of the warhammer. This sounds like mithral can indeed be forged, and then reforged again. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2015 : 01:20:20
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
In The Crystal Shard, Bruenor Battlehammer took a squared-off block of the purest mithral from his personal cache to forge into the warhammer, Aegis-fang. It is unclear whether the dwarven mines beneath Kelvin's Cairn in Icewind Dale would have held enough mithral ore to produce this amount of pure mithral, or if Clan Battlehammer had brought the metal from Himral Uldoun, Mithral Hall, on its way to the Dale. But for it to be so pure indicates that raw ore had been very thoroughly smelted to remove impurities. And then for the block to have been squared off like that indicates that it probably had been previously forged, or both heated and hammered into shape.
Bruenor set the squared block on his personal anvil and forged it into the head of the warhammer. This sounds like mithral can indeed be forged, and then reforged again.
As I recall the block of mithral was one of the few items that Bruenor brought with him when he fled Mithral Hall as a boy. |
Edited by - Arcanus on 05 Feb 2015 01:21:38 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2015 : 02:29:40
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Arms made of adamantine can be repaired at the forge. No reason they cannot be reforged, melted down, separated into component metals, or mixed into other alloys.
Of course, adamant is said to be very difficult to melt. A normal forge and bellows may not be able to generate enough heat, magic or alchemy or dragonfire might be required. And tools and anvils which wont soften. And the smiths themselves will be exposed to unbearable heat. But, hey, if those wimpy drow can figure it out then how hard can it be? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2015 : 02:43:57
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| Dwarf-made mithril forge-weight bars? That is, enough mithril to forge any average sized melee weapon? How much (in GP) would such a commodity be worth? |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2015 : 03:50:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Dwarf-made mithril forge-weight bars? That is, enough mithril to forge any average sized melee weapon? How much (in GP) would such a commodity be worth?
That's a very good question. The 2E DMG mentions that high quality items (I believe 2E's version of a masterwork) go anywhere from 5 to 20 times the normal price. I could only assume Mithral would be even higher.
Personally, I think the last couple editions made these materials WAY more common than they should be.
This is one of those questions I'd love to hear THO or Ed weigh in on from home Realms play for a few examples if possible. |
Edited by - Eilserus on 06 Feb 2015 03:53:18 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2015 : 03:53:57
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Agreed Eilserus. I don't think that mithral or adamantine would ever be available for general sale, except for ridiculous prices. You would either have to find some at the source, get in good with someone who mines it or can access it more easily, or recycle some other mithral or adamantine that you find. All of those options would involve lots of adventures.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2015 : 03:56:20
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| Or kill a caravan transporting it and blame it on the trolls. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 06 Feb 2015 03:57:55 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2015 : 04:04:29
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I'm not sure of the canonical published source behind it, but the d20 site gives a wonderful page on <special materials>, complete with cost modifiers for different classes of items made with those materials. A mithral item can cost from +1000 to +9000 gp more than an item made of a competing lesser material, depending on the item's size class.
But those prices apparently include the markup for masterwork crafsmanship ("LABOR") on the final products. A bar or block of pure mithral ("PARTS") ought to be considerably less. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2015 : 04:05:01
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| 1 stinking bar the size of a long sword or warhammer, is it worth the price of a platoon of dwarves?! |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2015 : 04:13:56
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| Shaiza. I just sold pot-metal for 4 cents a pound. Even a hundred times that seems like a good deal for mithril. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 06 Feb 2015 04:14:40 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2015 : 04:20:39
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| So, is steel or gold the base number we multiply, by weight, in which to determine the value? |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2015 : 23:28:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
1 stinking bar the size of a long sword or warhammer, is it worth the price of a platoon of dwarves?!
Would a long sword or warhammer be akin to a set of medium armor? If so, then a mithral long sword should cost base + 4000 gp.
I have no idea how that compares to the price of a dwarf platoon. 
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Shaiza. I just sold pot-metal for 4 cents a pound. Even a hundred times that seems like a good deal for mithril.
Remember that the listed prices are for finished products.
As I said, a chunk of mithral should cost less, since it wouldn't involve masterwork crafsmanship.
But also remember that mithral is supposed to be exceedingly rare. Clan Battlehammer's tales of a fortress where silver rivers run notwithstanding, mithral is supposed to be very hard to come by. It shouldn't be priced where most people can afford it for large items. Trinkets maybe, but hardly for arms and armor.
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
So, is steel or gold the base number we multiply, by weight, in which to determine the value?
I would imagine steel to be the base, since the adamantine section relates that material to weapons normally made of steel, and the mithral section refers to that metal being worked like steel. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2015 : 00:43:19
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| The price of a dwarf platoon depends largely on how drunk they are. |
[/Ayrik] |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2015 : 01:13:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The price of a dwarf platoon depends largely on how drunk they are.
Ah, of course. The sober platoons have more ale still in their stores, which makes them more costly.
The drunker platoons have that ale in their bellies, which drops their prices accordingly. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Arian Dynas
Acolyte
USA
36 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2015 : 02:43:34
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| I see no reason why either metal would be impossible to reforge from a previous shape. Although it's not Realmslore, in Pathfinder's Golarion, all Adamantine comes from a "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks"-style Alien spaceship. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2015 : 04:39:00
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If metal was worked, it can be reworked. Now one could argue that the metal can only be reworked at the source. A person can not reforge a steel bean in their back yard after all. That needs to go back to a steel mill to be reforged.
As for pricing, D&D and thus FR never did economics well, the pricing is based on some degree of rarity. This however clearly not reflected well in any campaign. In part of course we are dealing with heroes (or villains) that are the one percent that encounter exotic monsters and weapons. Then try to sell their excess to the other 99 percent. The other 99 percent clearly willing to sell for more then what they paid for it. There is no commodity exchange, there realy is not any common price that can be world wide set. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2015 : 14:21:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Arian Dynas
I see no reason why either metal would be impossible to reforge from a previous shape. Although it's not Realmslore, in Pathfinder's Golarion, all Adamantine comes from a "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks"-style Alien spaceship.
I think you just gave me an adventure idea: Some greedy Dwarves who got a "Secret mine", and strips precious metals from a crashed Spelljammer in Icewind Dale. Then they dig too deep...  |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2015 : 15:51:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Starshade
quote:
Originally posted by Arian Dynas
I see no reason why either metal would be impossible to reforge from a previous shape. Although it's not Realmslore, in Pathfinder's Golarion, all Adamantine comes from a "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks"-style Alien spaceship.
I think you just gave me an adventure idea: Some greedy Dwarves who got a "Secret mine", and strips precious metals from a crashed Spelljammer in Icewind Dale. Then they dig too deep...
hehehe that's kind of what I was thinking too. A string of giant chunks of floating rock with precious metals in them and/or fused into them. Possibly from the giant/dragon war that blew up the Stonelands so long ago. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2015 : 16:32:23
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Agreed Eilserus. I don't think that mithral or adamantine would ever be available for general sale, except for ridiculous prices. You would either have to find some at the source, get in good with someone who mines it or can access it more easily, or recycle some other mithral or adamantine that you find. All of those options would involve lots of adventures.
-- George Krashos
For sure. I remember in Salvatore's Streams of Silver when opening the secret door in Keeper's Dale, Bruenor mentioned his people would only accept magic weapons in trade at the mines.
Unless this has changed, but I can't remember if it's been noted as such.
*Edit* There must be some form of trade. The end of the Halfling's Gem states that "The autumn saw the first crafted goods flow from Mithril Hall to Silverymoon, and by the time winter turned again to spring, the trade was in full force." |
Edited by - Eilserus on 07 Feb 2015 18:44:04 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2015 : 20:24:11
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Maybe theres some confusion about adamant metals ...
2E Volos Guide to All Things Magical is the best D&D treatment on this which I have seen. Short version is that *adamant* is a hard, dense, brittle metal - I think of it almost like a black obsidian-glass ceramic - incredible strong, inflexible, capable of keeping a razor edge. But also, with enough force or impact, brittle and subject to shattering. Great for making small, sharp tools - somewhat useless for making weapons and armours.
*Adamantine* is an alloy which includes a lot of *adamant*. It still has all the desirable properties of adamant yet it is also a bit flexible and highly impact resistant. Much like steel alloys have superior properties to pure iron. This is the mystical metal prized for use in weapons and armours. Producing adamantine alloy is apparently an exotic process, a metallurgical impossibility involving careful measures of other metals (including mithril) along with some alchemy and magic. No doubt smiths knowledgeable in working such metals have their own secret mixtures and preferred sources for raw material ore.
The DMG1 Arms & Equipment Guide briefly mentions that forging drow chain mail (made from drow adamantine) probably involves exposure to the mystical radiations of the Underdark. Likewise, elven chain (as made by surface elves) is described as being a silvery mithril-like alloy of *elven steel* and probably involves exposure to moonlight during forging.
This is not at all the same stuff as comic book *adamantium* which, once melted and forged and cast and hardened by cooling, is utterly impervious to any damage or further changes of state. D&D adamantium is basically a lot like hard cobalt-manganese-tungsten-titanium, it is amazingly tough stuff but it can indeed be broken and remade.
Prior to 2E VGtATM the only descriptions of such metals were found in various monster entries and a few little tables in the DMGs. D&D 3E onwards offered a number of treatises about such metals, but few were as comprehensive or consistent with existing game rules and lore. My preference is the 2E material, but given the fantastic nature and rarity of these metals it really doesnt much matter which version of the lore you use, provided its compatible with your D&D gaming ruleset. |
[/Ayrik] |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2015 : 21:56:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
quote:
Originally posted by Starshade
quote:
Originally posted by Arian Dynas
I see no reason why either metal would be impossible to reforge from a previous shape. Although it's not Realmslore, in Pathfinder's Golarion, all Adamantine comes from a "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks"-style Alien spaceship.
I think you just gave me an adventure idea: Some greedy Dwarves who got a "Secret mine", and strips precious metals from a crashed Spelljammer in Icewind Dale. Then they dig too deep...
hehehe that's kind of what I was thinking too. A string of giant chunks of floating rock with precious metals in them and/or fused into them. Possibly from the giant/dragon war that blew up the Stonelands so long ago.
Who knows what all lurks beneath the ice wall of the Reghed Glacier? Some bizarro craft might have easily crash-landed out on the floor of the Icewind Dale tundra and then skidded right into the glacier wall, only to be entombed in ice in the centuries since. Some slivers of UFO dust just might constitute Bruenor's "secret sauce". |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2015 : 22:01:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Agreed Eilserus. I don't think that mithral or adamantine would ever be available for general sale, except for ridiculous prices. You would either have to find some at the source, get in good with someone who mines it or can access it more easily, or recycle some other mithral or adamantine that you find. All of those options would involve lots of adventures.
-- George Krashos
For sure. I remember in Salvatore's Streams of Silver when opening the secret door in Keeper's Dale, Bruenor mentioned his people would only accept magic weapons in trade at the mines.
Unless this has changed, but I can't remember if it's been noted as such.
*Edit* There must be some form of trade. The end of the Halfling's Gem states that "The autumn saw the first crafted goods flow from Mithril Hall to Silverymoon, and by the time winter turned again to spring, the trade was in full force."
But that passage only says that crafted goods flowed forth. It doesn't necessarily mean mithral goods did so. They might've only been mundane goods right at first, for all we know.
I imagine Bruenor might've restricted the good stuff to either other leaders in the North, or only the wealthiest buyers.
Still, there had to have been a good deal of mithral goods going forth, as Mithral Hall achieved a bit of notoriety in short order after it was retaken from the minions of Shimmergloom, and other major mining settlements saw the Hall as a definite competitor because of its reputation for fine mithral wares. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2015 : 22:40:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Starshade
I think you just gave me an adventure idea: Some greedy Dwarves who got a "Secret mine", and strips precious metals from a crashed Spelljammer in Icewind Dale. Then they dig too deep...
Spelljamming ships aren't all that big.
Also, this leaves the question of how it got there in the first place. Let alone what could be particularly dangerous about digging it up if it was buried under a layer of stone. Other than undead - but it's not like they could not dig out much earlier...
The obvious exclusion is if it goes per "Masters of Eternal Night". Then yes, a few pods not in stasis at all and broken, a few covered in stasis goo, but without crew, then the main hull and "AIEEEEE GET IT OFF ME GETITOFFGETITOFF!!!"
But IIRC that thing didn't have much of anything like mithral or other "intrinsically valuable" stuff. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Adamantite and Mithral Recycling
