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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Nov 2014 : 13:11:43
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Are there any known tribes of gnolls in the more northern parts of Faerun? I always thought of them as more near desert nomads, but when I came across this picture, I kinda second guessed myself.
This white gnoll is surely not having any problems with the cold clime. It also looks quite noble. Is it from a FR source? If so, what tribe or locale is it from?
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2014 : 14:21:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Are there any known tribes of gnolls in the more northern parts of Faerun? I always thought of them as more near desert nomads, but when I came across this picture, I kinda second guessed myself.
This white gnoll is surely not having any problems with the cold clime. It also looks quite noble. Is it from a FR source? If so, what tribe or locale is it from?
According to the FRCS (3e), there are gnolls in the High Forest. There has never been any reason (other than that source) to suppose gnolls are native to the North, so I've chosen never to mention them. (Don't contradict the source, but don't exacerbate it.) I think it's actually better to keep mountain orcs as the big threat of the North (supplemented by goblins and trolls) and keep gnolls and gray orcs as natives of the east (in the vicinity of the Thaymount).
I think hobgoblins are the best threat for the south (Tethyr region), but they spread north and east to the Sunset Vale. (There's also a contingent of hobgoblins brought far north by the dragons of Clan Morueme.)
In other words, I think the migrations of humanoids can be worked into something sensible as well. |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
Edited by - ericlboyd on 01 Nov 2014 14:56:29 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2014 : 17:24:40
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As best as I can tell, Gnolls originated from the south (or rather, thats where we see them first in Faerūn). They had a vast empire - Urgnarash - in the Shar/Old Empire region during the Dawn Ages, and seem to have been of a much higher level of sophistication then they are now (there is canon evidence of 'gnoll mummies').
In my homebrew musings, I have likened the original gnolls to the Hutaakans of Mystara (OD&D), which also had an 'Egyptian flavor'. The gnolls were probably already in decline when the Ilythiir first showed up (perhaps they had conflicts with the Fey, who were also from around that same area). It could even be that the early Ilythiir allied with the last of the Urgnari against the Fey (for some reason, Drow fear fey... and Drow fear very little), or, if this was before their hatred of the fey (pre-descent), perhaps the Fey used the Ilythiir to drive eliminate the gnolls (which may have lead to their awe/hate - what if the Fey used them as fodder?) Either way, the Ilythiir began to control much of the region the gnolls once considered theirs.
Further east, around modern-day Mulhorand and Brightsar Lake (Hordelands), the gnolls may have found some respite for a time, staying in the forests and the then-fertile Raurin Basin. However, after the Crown Wars human civilizations were on the rise, and the Imaskari (a wandering tribe of Muhjein at first) discovered those same lands the gnolls sought refuge in, and it was a simple matter for the fierce nomadic people to drive-off the remnants of the now-decadent gnolls. The Imaskari had a bad habit of eliminating or enslaving non-humans, and subjugating other humans (a trait they share with the Netherese). It was during this time I feel they became the 'Imaskari', literally, 'children of Ima', their leader, and made their first great discovery - an ancient temple of unknown (Fey? Gnollish?) origins to a deity of 'planer travel' (Aoskar), which began their meteoric rise in magical might.
So as the Imaskari pushed outward, they drove many people's before them (not just the Turami, who were human), and the gnolls lost whatever little civilization they had left, becoming refugees and spreading into other lands, often coming into conflict with humanoid tribes who were also trying to keep to 'less desirable' regions to avoid human contact* (and extermination). Eventually they found their way to the North, but would have also come up against elves and dwarves who already claimed much of those lands.
So a once-proud warrior people became little more then animals, barely remembering the glories of their past... except for their ingrained hatred for the humans and demi-humans who 'stole their place in the sun'.
Thats how I spun things, based on what little canon we have for them (as a people).
*And by 'human contact', I also include demi-humans in that. Most humanoids and 'bestial' races do not differentiate between the 'humanish' races at all. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Nov 2014 17:33:18 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2014 : 17:53:35
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Not to derail the thread but gnolls are based on hyenas, so given that the humanoid in the pic you linked is wolf-based... it's not a gnoll. 
It might very well be intended to be a gnoll; just sayin.
Still, a good question. Flinds are related to gnolls and they are or have been found in the north (Frozen Flindyke). |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2014 : 18:28:11
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*Blink* Wolves and hyenas are that much different that when blended with humanoid form people can tell a difference.
*Mutters* Looked them up, it appears hyenas are more genetically feline then canine, however display canine mostly behavior. So I guess one that looks close can determine the difference.
Yes thread slightly derailed, at least for now. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2014 : 19:01:55
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Sorry, Kentinal, I wasn't trying to be ubernerdy. 
In my nominal defense I was looking mainly at the ears and the length of the snout, and comparing the linked pic to the 5e MM gnoll... which isn't necessarily a good comparison. Now that I've googled pics (hyena vs wolf) I'll say this, about just their heads... wolves have pointier ears, and more scruff on the neck behind their lower jaw. The latter might be due to diet; maybe a well-fed hyena has more fur, but the linked pic still looks closer to wolf than hyena, to me.
But that still doesn't say what the artist was going for. Maybe he/she meant hyena but accidentally painted something wolfier. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2014 : 20:04:10
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Well, I meant 'something like this'. Those are the Hutaakans of Mystara, after all. Its not like FR takes stuff from there {*cough* Avariels *cough* Aranea *cough*}.
And Mystara had catfolk (Rakasta) as well. I had always assumed that the Lupins (dog-people) were decendents of the ancient Hutakaans, but I suppose the Rakasta may have been... or both. Like how the flinds and gnolls split-off. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Nov 2014 20:04:49 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2014 : 20:43:59
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| I kinda understand the confusion. But even of the pic is of a wolfman, it definately is no lycantrope; it is in hybrid form but had no sign of torn clothes and is not terribly sizable either. It's his hunched silhouette that would make me classify as typically 'gnollish'. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2014 : 21:12:52
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There are definitely gnolls in cold areas. There were gnolls in Vaasa in some novel revolving around a demon or devil coming to the area. That being said, I agree, keeping gnolls to MOSTLY the areas around Thay and Calimshan and into the Shaar and/or further south would seem to fit best.
It should also be noted that gnolls are some of the first races mentioned in Faerun as well. They may have been a created race OR they may have been naturally occurring OR they may have crossed over from the feywild OR something else entirely. The below from GHotR:
30400 DR
The Wasting Plague: In a conflict between the gnolls of Urgnarash and the rookery of Kookrui-Shara, shamans of Yeenoghu summon marrashispirits of pestilence from the Barrens of Doom and Despairto blight aearee crops and spread a wasting plague among the avians. Decimated, many Aearee-Quor turn to the demon lord Pazrael for salvation. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2014 : 22:28:57
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| Actually, isn't 'Frozen Flindyke' a Flind town? And thats WAY up north. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lyiat
Seeker
91 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2014 : 23:04:37
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Frozen Flindyke is an abandoned ruin, once a gnoll bastion.
I seem to recall gnolls being counted among monsters whom Drizzt faced just after leaving the Underdark in the Dark Elf Trilogy. |
"Stand and deliver, that my hamster might have a better look at you." ~ Minsc |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2014 : 23:14:49
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| Those Hutaakan gnolls look kinda Roman-like (or Egyptian as MT suggested) I see the grey-white gnolls wardrobe having similar overtones. Perhaps the Realms has had (still surviving) tribes that did not succumb to demonic worship of Yeenoghu or other abyssal lords. They might've been left to their usual nomadic ways, spiralling outward to the north from more southern locales. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2014 : 23:16:30
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I think the gnolls can live in the north (north of the Moonsea) and the south (the Shaar). I'm merely advocating for an origin that starts near the Thaymount. Then imagine spiraling arms around the north and south of the Inner Sea, with population counts diminishing over distance. The "westernmost major outposts" are probably the Ride and the Shaar.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2014 : 00:52:38
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
I'm merely advocating for an origin that starts near the Thaymount. Then imagine spiraling arms around the north and south of the Inner Sea, with population counts diminishing over distance.
I like this, and I agree that the gnolls are capable of surviving pretty much anywhere; they'll just be more or less uncomfortable depending on climate and the availability of warmblooded prey. Small tribes might be found in the north, but large ones are unlikely.
And I'm comfortable with the flind being related but not identical, and their habitat "comfort zone" might be one of their differences. The population at Flindyke still probably coalesced from exceptional circumstances, but its existence doesn't necessarily mean that plain ol' gnolls should be found in significant numbers in the north.
Also: I miss the Rakasta. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6645 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2014 : 12:39:52
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In my yet unfinished timeline of the Unapproachable East, I have the following entries:
-3650 The gnoll tribes of Erilaths Steps (Modern: Plateau of Thay) are united under a powerful shaman named Orlaghu and establish the realm of Yeheenaargar.
-3638 The gnolls of Yeheenaargar launch a campaign of extermination against the nomadic centaur tribes of Erilaths Steps.
-3628 The gnolls are victorious in their war against the centaurs of Erilaths Steps. The centaurs are driven from the region and seek sanctuary within the Riildath and Yuirwood forests.
-3625 The Barking Wars: The gnolls of Yeheenaargar clash with the elves of Lethyr and Yuireshanyaar.
-3615 After a decade of warring, with the increasingly overmatched gnolls of Yeheenaargar resorting to the use of fire to stave off elven assaults, the woodlands of both Lethyr and Yuireshanyaar are reduced in size.
-3595 End of the Barking Wars with the death of Arlaghu, son of Orlaghu, at the hands of the elves. Yeheenaargar disintegrates into scattered groups of gnoll raiders, many of whom flee the region by ways north and south.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2014 : 13:27:00
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Thanks for this lore gem, Krash!
During this time north east Faerun (really love this place) had a more lush environment, right? The Great Glacier manifested about thousand years later.
I love the connection to centaur tribes. This Orlaghu, was (s)he a demon cultist of Yeenoghu or a more druidic type shaman?
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2014 : 17:28:14
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The one problem with that is that according to the novel Red Magic, centaurs are still prevalent in Thay. Centaurs that are in the very least neutral-evil because they act as 'overseers' on the slave plantations.
I would add a little something in about some 'feral' tribes of centaurs that betrayed the rest, and worked with the gnolls, just to keep it consistent.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Nov 2014 17:29:09 |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2014 : 08:52:09
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WereScrib did a very well researched write-up on gnolls to bound at the following link:
http://arelith.com/node/978
In doing his write-up on the origins of the gnolls (which he finds canonical evidence suggesting that they are older than the Creator Races) he describes the three main branches of gnolls that the realms made into distinctly different subraces.
quote:
Northern Gnoll
Physiology
Gnolls of the north have notable for having relatively lanky, long limbs and a brighter fur colors than some of the other races. This fur is medium length and Adults can have anything from tawny brown to brilliant, golden pelts. While youth and kits have raw beige colored fur with a soft, downy texture and a general 'poofiness' that may remind someone of the fur of a Pomeranian. It should also be noted that gnolls require clothing to remain warm in the unforgiving chill of the north.
Personality
Northern gnolls are boastful, as are all gnolls but expect a little more work from their people then is normally common to gnollkind. This changes depending upon how unforgiving the environment is. They do tend to be insular but have a stronger sense of community than most gnolls.
Society
Northern gnolls have slightly differing naming standards from those of other regions. Firstly they have a given gnoll like "Krote", "Grash" or "Varrn" followed by a compound word nickname which is more commonly used such as "Wolf-Ear", "Word-Maker" "Spear-Biter" etc. Finally followed by a totem-based compound tribename. Such as "Strong-Bear" or "Frost-Worm" (although a few have tribenames that do not contain a totem, such as "Burnt Fur"). Northern gnolls are organized based upon Tribes, which contain a number of Lodges, within these lodges are packs. Packs usually hunt with eachother and sleep in a communal tent by pack. (for warmth) Although more important gnolls will have their own quarters usually with their own fires and wives.
Northern Gnolls have numerous social traditions. Marriage is to be declared before the entire tribe, the male stating that the female is now his. This is usually followed by ritual chants of celebration.
Generally, females must compete to find the best mates, as logically, all the females desire the chieftain or the best hunters as mates. In addition to physical prowess and aggressive, strong behavior, the amount the female owns is taken into consideration. All she has is given to the husband as a dowry and he will examine it to see if her possessions are worthwhile to him and his aids. A strong male is likely to have multiple wives, showing truly how much he owns and the levels of his prowess.
Alignment
They are generally evil and chaotic, but it's not uncommon for them to work with the other gnoll tribes and to a limited extent, human tribes.
Religion
Northern gnolls are one of the great holdout peoples and do not generally worship Yeenoghu. Gorellik is the dominant belief combined with a powerful superstitious bent. It's likely a number of northern gnoll tribes worship giantkin gods as well as deities such as Malar.
History
The gnolls of the North and the Savage Frontier have allot more difficulty even surviving than those in warmer regions. The weather is oppressive and the terrain treacherous. Due to this actual war is rather rare among their people, although conflict is still quite common.
Recently, the Harpers have begun working with the Gnolls of the north and a slow understanding is being created between their peoples. This started when the Burnt Fur tribe was attacked and taken over by an Ice Devil. The Devil was stopped with the aid of a Harper ranger of Mielikki named Martine, her Gnome companion Vilheim and a gnoll Shaman of Gorellik named Krote Word-Maker.
Later, in his notes to himself, WereScrib lists the following information.
Harpers 07: Soldiers of Ice--Gnoll society
tribe names: Three-Claw, Hoar Fang, Ice-Worm, Burnt Fur
Searches on Three-Claw turns up story references to a gnoll chief of that name. Burnt Fur is a tribe of gnolls from a WotC FR novel "Soldiers of Ice" that places them between the Great Glacier and Damarra. My searches for Hoar Fang and Ice-Worm came to naught but a possibility that the latter was a musing on the gnoll's tribal totem. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2014 : 14:00:58
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I was doing some research yesterday when I came across an FR map I hadn't seen before, which had a gnoll town on it. It was from the novel Soldiers of Ice.
The entire thing takes place between Damara and the Great Glacier. Since there isn't anything between Damara and the Great Glacier (and the map had mountains, forests, etc), I find it kinda hard to justify and place. I do see that Brian James turned the river from the novel into a town on the 4e Vassa map... still trying to figure that one out (but at least I know where that town came from now).
Anyhow, the gnolls are detailed - I didn't get very far in (seemed kinda boring), but the whole first chapter is just gnolls - gnolls living right up against the Great Glacier. It doesn't get much further 'north' then that. Its also very apparent the author also thinks gnolls are dog-like. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Nov 2014 14:01:54 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2014 : 14:13:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I was doing some research yesterday when I came across an FR map I hadn't seen before, which had a gnoll town on it. It was from the novel Soldiers of Ice.
The entire thing takes place between Damara and the Great Glacier. Since there isn't anything between Damara and the Great Glacier (and the map had mountains, forests, etc), I find it kinda hard to justify and place. I do see that Brian James turned the river from the novel into a town on the 4e Vassa map... still trying to figure that one out (but at least I know where that town came from now).
Anyhow, the gnolls are detailed - I didn't get very far in (seemed kinda boring), but the whole first chapter is just gnolls - gnolls living right up against the Great Glacier. It doesn't get much further 'north' then that. Its also very apparent the author also thinks gnolls are dog-like.
Yeah, that's the novel I mentioned above. I couldn't remember the name though. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2014 : 15:55:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyiat
I seem to recall gnolls being counted among monsters whom Drizzt faced just after leaving the Underdark in the Dark Elf Trilogy.
Aye, Drizzt ran into a band of gnolls in the Rauvin Mountains at the beginning of the novel Sojourn, about four months since arriving on the surface.
Those particular gnolls readily took to working with a drow visitor, presuming him to be just as evil as them.
When Drizzt left their corpses behind, he needed some new gear. His drow gear had begun deteriorating in the sunlight by then. So he appropriated a tattered, oversized cloak from the gnoll leader. It is my contention that this was possibly the same brown cloak that Drizzt wore during the fight against the tundra yetis at the beginning of The Crystal Shard. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2014 : 16:02:26
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It must have smelled AWFUL.
Then again, given how often we here about characters bathing, the whole world must smell pretty awful. 50,000+ intelligent races on one world, and none of them have running water. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2014 : 16:28:12
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Samek is described as a gnome village in Soldiers of ice p.19.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I do see that Brian James turned the river from the novel into a town on the 4e Vassa map... still trying to figure that one out (but at least I know where that town came from now).
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Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2014 : 17:05:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It must have smelled AWFUL.
Then again, given how often we here about characters bathing, the whole world must smell pretty awful. 50,000+ intelligent races on one world, and none of them have running water.
And he got the cloak right after the run-in with the black-and-white critters in his cave.
So that cloak smelled like a combination of skunk and wet dog! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2014 : 06:57:59
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboydAccording to the FRCS (3e), there are gnolls in the High Forest. There has never been any reason (other than that source) to suppose gnolls are native to the North, so I've chosen never to mention them. (Don't contradict the source, but don't exacerbate it.) I think it's actually better to keep mountain orcs as the big threat of the North (supplemented by goblins and trolls) and keep gnolls and gray orcs as natives of the east (in the vicinity of the Thaymount)...
Pardon my impertinence but, uh, why? And just because something else is a threat doesn't mean the orcs aren't there and a threat. I can understand from a writer's view that mention of orcs and little else is all that is necessary when detailing a region of faerun since they have the largest gross impact after prolonged absence. *shrug* In the canon, walls seem to stop the hordes of orcs; their tactics don't change much from the brute swarm; and they are squishy like humans. Orcs being the big bad that must be endured to survive in the North is a problem that's all too quickly defanged by earthworks projects and siege preparations.
The way I see of it, orcs are the scourge they are because they are not the big bads of the North. There are so many other threats that are big, nasty, and needing different solutions stretching the resources available to deal with them that when the orcs do show up the civilizations of the North collectively craps itself because they spent their manpower (building weapons to fend off large aerial attackers/sending small warbands to drive off malicious humanoid tribes/Dog-and-Pony showing their warriors to rival settlements in diplomatic brinksmanship/rebulding their community from a casual calamity [localized pestilence, drought, flood, or famine]/coordinating a massive effort to drive dangerous vermin away from the food sources/drew down their preparations in favor of the "peace dividend"/etc.../etc...) on other things that seemed like a good idea at the time. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2014 : 16:40:13
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Don't look at it from a gamer/fantasy fan's point-of-view, look at it from a designer's PoV: You want every part of an RPG setting to feel different. Redundancy (along with derivatives) makes it look like lazy design, and also makes the whole purpose of designing beyond a region pointless, if everything was 'alike'. Why go anywhere else if its all very similar?
So YES, in FR you CAN encounter just about anything anywhere, but it makes sense if certain regions were better-known for certain things over others.
Personally, I would still love to see an anthology just for humanoids - they have their own history that overlaps everyone else's, and yet we hear almost nothing about it (unless it ends in confrontation).
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Samek is described as a gnome village in Soldiers of ice p.19. quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I do see that Brian James turned the river from the novel into a town on the 4e Vassa map... still trying to figure that one out (but at least I know where that town came from now).
I suppose it all depends on how you read it. The village is unnamed - the River is named (on the map). If you read the text on that page very carefully, 'Samek' is actually the valley the gnomes live in (so one can conclude that - just like everywhere else in Faerūn - the valley a river runs through is often named after that river). The second sentence is referring to the valley mentioned in the first sentence.
So now, the village of Samek lies in the valley of Samek along the Samek River. It's all good - I prefer to have a name for it (its just called 'Vani-Warren' on the map). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Nov 2014 16:43:55 |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2014 : 09:50:02
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I was actually looking at it more from the point of view of the original question.
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Are there any known tribes of gnolls in the more northern parts of Faerun? I always thought of them as more near desert nomads, but when I came across this picture, I kinda second guessed myself...
There are significant populations of gnolls in the Shaar, the Hordelands, Thay, Anauroch, Dambrath (in the Gnollwatch Mountains) and Damarra. The North: Cities has Kismet's Champions being ambushed by gnolls in the Moonwoods. The Fall of Myth Drannor has a large component of the Army of Darkness that ran rampant through Cormanthor and doomed Myth Drannor as being gnolls. From the Moonsea, to the Lake of Steam, to the Sword Coast - those buggers seem to range far and wide. Yes, there are 3rd Ed references but a few 2nd Eds rear their heads as well. Even without this information I was just wondering why EricBoyd was so quick to dismiss gnolls, promote orcs, offer a hobgoblin alternative, suggest pinning the gnolls in the East, and advocating "sensible migration." The entire post hinged on orcs being the big bad so I wondered why, given x, y, and z, he thought that way.
Bladewind was asking about known tribes in Northern regions (not necessarily The North) which contradict his earlier notion of gnolls being wanderers of scorching deserts. Markustay, other than the novel you named, as far as I have seen, none of the sources name their tribes. Does anyone else have anything or do we just clear the way so that Markustay can take a victory lap for winning the thread. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6645 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2014 : 14:58:02
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I don't think the lore supports gnolls ever being the "big bad", whereas orcs in the North have always been accorded this status.
Gnolls can exist throughout the North and other parts, but they are simply not a major "player" in these areas.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 13 Nov 2014 23:17:39 |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2014 : 16:02:06
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
I was actually looking at it more from the point of view of the original question.
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Are there any known tribes of gnolls in the more northern parts of Faerun? I always thought of them as more near desert nomads, but when I came across this picture, I kinda second guessed myself...
There are significant populations of gnolls in the Shaar, the Hordelands, Thay, Anauroch, Dambrath (in the Gnollwatch Mountains) and Damarra. The North: Cities has Kismet's Champions being ambushed by gnolls in the Moonwoods. The Fall of Myth Drannor has a large component of the Army of Darkness that ran rampant through Cormanthor and doomed Myth Drannor as being gnolls. From the Moonsea, to the Lake of Steam, to the Sword Coast - those buggers seem to range far and wide. Yes, there are 3rd Ed references but a few 2nd Eds rear their heads as well. Even without this information I was just wondering why EricBoyd was so quick to dismiss gnolls, promote orcs, offer a hobgoblin alternative, suggest pinning the gnolls in the East, and advocating "sensible migration." The entire post hinged on orcs being the big bad so I wondered why, given x, y, and z, he thought that way.
Bladewind was asking about known tribes in Northern regions (not necessarily The North) which contradict his earlier notion of gnolls being wanderers of scorching deserts. Markustay, other than the novel you named, as far as I have seen, none of the sources name their tribes. Does anyone else have anything or do we just clear the way so that Markustay can take a victory lap for winning the thread.
My reasoning echoes what George said. I like to think about where races "originated" and how they spread. That's why, for example, I charted out all the human migrations in Races of Faerun. We also know how dwarves migrated and elves migrated pretty well at this point.
For me personally, it really bugs me to see dungeons stocked with a random humanoids (I need a 2 HD monster, stat!) to serve as cannon fodder rather than thinking through the population migrations.
ORCS
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So, all the lore seems to suggest that orcs originated in the North before the founding of Netheril, but they don't seem to have been a problem prior to that. Does that mean that orcs were created circa -4,000 DR? Or was Aryvandaar and its successors so powerful that orcs and humans were simply primitive little tribes pushed around at will?
We know of countless orc hordes bubbling forth from the Spine of the World and overruning the settled lands. We've actually got many of the hordes mapped out, leading to the current population distribution.
GOBLINS
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Goblins are much less clear to me. Some seem to have originated the Stonelands region, while others seem to have been native to the North.
HOBGOBLINS
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The only origin stories we know about hobgoblins come from Gorge of the Fallen Idol, although they seem to have some ties to the Battle of Bones area as well.
GNOLLS
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They probably came from Thay and primarily spread southward through the Shining Plains, although others went north to the Moonsea. The only reference to flinds is in the Moonsea region, so they must have split off from the northern migration.
BUGBEARS
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They have not been mentioned extensively in the Realms except in the High Moor area.
So, here are the beginnings of a theory of humanoid migrations.
Mountain Orcs are native to the northern North. Origins unclear, but probably primitive tribes (humans warped by magic?).
Gray Orcs are an offshoot of Mountain Orcs brought to Thay region.
Goblinoids (including goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears) probably originated near the Sunset Vale. Over time they split into multiple subraces (very mutable DNA?) which diverged. Goblins were the northern branch, hobgoblins were the southwestern branch, and bugbears were the central branch.
Gnolls probably originated near the Thaymount and spread widely.
So, yes, you can run into any random low-level humanoid in any dungeon, but there's probably a good reason (or at least very unlikely) if it's not mountain orcs (or goblins) in the North, goblins in Cormyr, hobgoblins in Tethyr, or gnolls or grey orcs in Thay. |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2014 : 16:34:40
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I'm sure i've read in a few sourcebooks that the elves and dwarves of the north expended much of their numbers and power keeping the orcs isolated in the Spine of the World.
Certainly once Eaerlann and Delzoun fail there is an explosion of orcs that reach progressively further south.
Not too sure on the origins of orcs since we have sources citing them fighting dwarves for control of their holds in the Spine of the World (which is pretty ancient) and that they arrived from elsewhere before the elves, none of this however excludes orcs being mutated humans, in fact the first mention of orcs has them led by a demon so it might be demon influence/breeding that creates the first orc. And gray orcs possibly came from another world so may or may not be related to mountain orcs (although the bloodlines appear to mingle in several places at several points in history)
Looking at timeline events i had a go at pinpointing the century in which orcs migrated into areas like the dalelands and the Moonsea and the Western Heartlands (and from what direction and subrace). The only problem is the Netheril sourcebook which just randomly chucks about 100000 orcs every centuries.
I think George has some alternative ideas on hobgoblins, with one branch existing in the Unapproachable East that may be a case of convergent evolution brought about by magical experimentation from dragons (dragons kidnap goblins, turn them into hobgoblins through magic and breeding, hobgoblins evolve naturally on their own in the south much later).
Given the hobgoblin intelligence and resourcefulness they exhibit above other goblinoids it is possible they migrated the normal way across Faerun by walking rather than hordes for orcs or magic for other races. With a hooded cloak they could probably pass for a sick human and travel right through human nations with little trouble (people avoid plague sufferers for fear of catching the disease).
Goblins are too small to notice and probably got pushed out of useful areas by humans into less hospitable terrain which explains their spread.
And then there is always the upper reaches of the Underdark which humanoids can use to migrate through (if they can find it)
I like gnolls in Thay, in what were once Sarrukh lands (masters of transmutation magic) and full of portals to whisk them away to other parts of Faerun. The Sarrukh were known to experiment on their servant races quite heavily so gnolls and centaurs have a possible origin there |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2014 : 21:00:50
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I like gnolls a lot, but I think since they've lost their civilization and fell back into barbarism, they are much more along the lines of a 'pack mentality', and can't organize well beyond that.
Orcs, on the other hand, form into monstrous hordes numbering in the hundreds of thousands. Even if gnolls out-numbered Orcs in the North (which I sincerely doubt), they just don't have the unity to make them significant.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I don't think the lore supports gnolls ever being the "big bad", whereas orcs in the North have always been accorded this status.
Gongs can exist throughout the North and other parts, but they are simply not a major "player" in these areas.
-- George Krashos
I haven't been attacked by a Gong in awhile.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Nov 2014 21:05:13 |
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Gnolls of the North
