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 Just too many NPCs: An argument I don't get.
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2014 :  11:15:57  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
For several years now, I have heard this argument coming from naysayers of the Forgotten Realms and I just don't get it. It's not like all the unique NPCs get together, magically appear, and write themselves into a DM's adventure. I've had people tell me they hate FR because Drizzt is out there to save the day so why are they needed. Drizzt doesn't exist in my FR games but some people are still not happy unless those NPCs have been written out of the offical core campaign.

Just don't understand this argument.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1150 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2014 :  11:40:23  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the logic behind it was that the PCs were supposed to be the heroes in any campaign. With so many high-level good-aligned NPCs in the campaign, those PCs were not considered as special as they were in other settings. There was a real push to make the players the central focus of all 4e campaigns. Any allies were just there to provide goods, services and to reward the players once the adventure was done.

Of course, the argument is specious as it is entirely up to the DM to include such NPCs in their campaign. The powerful good guys have their own problems to worry about and unless they're in the neighbourhood and the world is about to end the only service they perform is as part of the campaign's fluff. The only time an NPC should be forced upon you is in a novel.

IMO the people who make the 'too many NPCs' argument haven't actually read the source material, they've just skimmed it and made up their minds without regard to facts.

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TBeholder
Great Reader

2378 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2014 :  14:50:28  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yup, in the root it's about SPESHUL-ness. PCs saving worlds every other day are, obviously, marysues. But a viable self-sustaining setting and Mary Sues saving it every other day are not reasonably compatible. Hence the pout.
But by now, it should be considered a meaningless meme and disregarded, IMHO.

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And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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Cbad285
Learned Scribe

160 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2014 :  15:10:14  Show Profile Send Cbad285 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wouldn't consider all those npc's heros. In my home campaign Khelban is a real ass-hat, Elminster is an absent father, Drizzt is more of a reckloose than a savior and the citizens of Silverymoon are far too concerned with seasonal pantaloons.

Point being, if the players don't like the setting, tell'em they are more than welcome to DM and you can PC it up.

That always shuts them up.

"Beware the Dream Fever!"
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Kyrel
Learned Scribe

151 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2014 :  16:56:07  Show Profile  Visit Kyrel's Homepage Send Kyrel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Have to agree with you Shadowsoul. You don't want a particular NPC in your campaign, don't let them star in it. That way they are a no bigger feature than a story about another part of the Realms that you are not currently having your campaign take place in. Some times it seems like people forget that they can modify and change the Realms as much as they feel like it. Want Waterdeep to be a small fishing village? Abracadabra. Now it's a small fishing village in your version of the Realms. Don't like Mystra and the concept of her Chosen? "Fluff" Mystra and her Chosen never existed in your campaign.
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2014 :  17:01:43  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I really hope Ed populates the Realms again.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2014 :  17:28:43  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The problem is that the novel line was intrinsically connected to the game line, which at first was a great thing, because it provided everyone with lore through two completely different avenues. You didn't need to be both a novel-fan and a game-fan to read both, and most fans did read both (and later the BG-VG fans as well).

They never foresaw the inevitable problem, first with the very nature of shared worlds (the whole 'one-upmanship'), and then how that problem would lead to a bigger problem with the game setting - the bigger the stories, the more the world needed to change, and the quicker it changed. I still think the WORST case of this was back with the Ruins of Zhentil Keep, which was completely over-written with the very next product (snap of the fingers and everything is back the way it was).

So they wanted the stories to lead the game-lore, but when it began to lead to too fast and too hard, they had to constantly back-peddle. The number of times destroyed stuff was rebuilt in FR is preposterous, not to mention how many times folk return from the dead.

And there's the rub.. the stories no longer matter. Why care if Waterdeep burns to the ground? It will just be back next week. Why care if a character dies a heroic (or tragic) death? He's still just magic-wand wave away. The world went from being one of the most mature and detailed settings around to being a caricature of itself - just a cartoon image. A joke.

So getting back to your post - as the setting spiraled wildly out-of-control, so did people's perceptions. "Hell, if there are hundreds of people who can juggle planets, why should I leave my farm? Its not like I'll make a difference!" The novel line created the problem, and now they are trying to fix it with novels. You don't pour gasoline on a fire to put it out.

Why do people prefer to game in other worlds now? Because they don't have to be some sort of uber-Sunder-monkey to matter, thats why. Its not the shear number of NPCs, its the fact that some of them make what we do (In our games) meaningless. I will always love the Forgotten Realms, but as a game setting, I think its run its course. Like with anything else, sometimes there is just too much 'baggage' to be bothered.

I am not saying people shouldn't buy the 5eFR books, by the way... I will. I love cannibalizing anything I can get my hands on for my own Frankenstein settings. In that regard, it all has value. The canon realms? not so much.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Apr 2014 17:35:42
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
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Posted - 11 Apr 2014 :  19:16:14  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I never felt that NPCs were a problem. The only problem was one of perception, usually fueled by a lack of knowledge and/or perspective.

The novels are not the problem, the problem was when TSR/WotC decided to go Hollywood and keep going for more BOOM. We had a lot of really good novels that never came close to big booms.

I will also disagree that there is too much baggage -- especially with it all handwaved away with the timejump.

The canon Realms has a great deal of value to a lot of us, even if just the platform upon which our own versions of the Realms are based.

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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2014 :  19:46:32  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
We had a lot of really good novels that never came close to big booms.

Yes! Like the Finder's Stone trilogy...so much win. And many of the Harper series books. So great, not RSEs.
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MrHedgehog
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688 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2014 :  20:30:21  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Faerun is a huge place I don't understand how some powerful NPCs matter? Just don't use them. I honestly like a lot of the stories with the big NPCs as novels. Much of the realms is the novels to me.
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe

Brazil
466 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2014 :  22:02:40  Show Profile Send Mapolq a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think they're trying to fix it with novels. From what they say they're trying to fix it by doing less novels, or less impactful ones at least. After all, novels don't need to be about saving the world, or even part of the world.

The Sundering though, is just a story. I could say "filler", but that word is a bit too loaded, as I don't think it's purposefully there to trick people into spending money, I think it's there because they knew people want to see the change in the Realms and wouldn't want to wait for the 5e campaign guide for everything (and yes, they hopefully make a buck too). So, as you said, novels don't really "matter" as in changing how the setting is. If they did that (as they have often done), the setting would suffer. So we don't want novels to "matter", in that particular way, and that's what they've been saying they'll do. But on the other hand, an year and a half with no FR products would be sad for many of us and not make them any money. Thus the Sundering telling the story of how a setting hopefully ceases to be wrecked every two weeks.

As I said before I'm waiting on the 5e campaign guide, whatever format it takes. That should allow us to have a good look at WotC's plans for the Realms.

Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.

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Edited by - Mapolq on 11 Apr 2014 22:03:31
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
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Posted - 11 Apr 2014 :  22:06:56  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog

Faerun is a huge place I don't understand how some powerful NPCs matter? Just don't use them. I honestly like a lot of the stories with the big NPCs as novels. Much of the realms is the novels to me.



They don't. But there are many folks who have decided that the mere existence of a powerful person that isn't their character means that there is nothing for their character to do.

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sfdragon
Great Reader

2285 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2014 :  22:17:21  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
party poopers in shadowdale" Elminster lives here, why doesnt he do it with his armies?"
"Drizzt lives here, why isnt he taking care of it?"
"Aribeth isa lvl 16 paladin, why isn't she taking care of it?"

most common types of gripes that I've read....


the irony is that most players fail to realize, that all those npcs don't have to be at home at the time or fail to notice that they did take care of it by pushing the pcs out the door.

elminster and his armies indeed.....

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


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Mapolq
Senior Scribe

Brazil
466 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2014 :  22:22:22  Show Profile Send Mapolq a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, I don't get the idea that novel make the NPCs seem important. The novels make the NPCs seem utterly irrelevant to me! I read a novel, the NPCs does all kinds of stuff, and most of the time it gets reduced to a footnote on the next sourcebook and forgotten until the author is hired for a sequel, or if they happened to blow something up, the footnote is a bit bigger since it has to say it was subsequently rebuilt.

Of everything the heroes and villains have been doing in the history of the published Realms, the actually important ones, the ones that actually get developed and even receive entire sourcebooks dedicated to them, aren't really the big booms. Booms are boring after they end, they only leave behind a lot of ash and dust. The stuff these NPCs did that actually matter at least a bit are such things like the rulers of Silverymoon, Sundabar, Everlund and the dwarven holds in the Savage Frontier establishing the Confederation of the Silver Marches. A section of the Zulkirate of Thay deciding to extend their influence globally through the Enclaves. The queen of Evermeet putting an end to the Retreat and elves taking an active role on the future of their own civilisation again. These things changed the Realms, or parts of it... not some powerful guy who could pull an asteroid out of the sky, then went away and nobody remembers him anymore. The only reason I even know there was something like it is that I'm interested in the power balance between the main temples of Cyric in Amn, and he did upset it... but not much else.

Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.

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Edited by - Mapolq on 11 Apr 2014 22:24:39
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2014 :  22:44:57  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In all my games, whether FR or not, the world is a living and breathing thing that grows and changes whether or not the PCs have any influence. There are other adventurers out there so they aren't the only ones. I am not a fan of having every game where the PCs are the worlds only special snowflakes where everything lines up waiting to be killed and plundered.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2014 :  00:28:42  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

For several years now, I have heard this argument coming from naysayers of the Forgotten Realms and I just don't get it.
Generally, when I hear (well, read, since in my experience such statements are more often than not posted online and not voiced out loud) these complaints, the people doing so aren't complaining about a tidal wave of Realms NPCs in general, they're complaining about a set of NPCs that--on the surface--save they day like superheroes, face the greatest challenges and take all the credit.

The problem with the perspective of, "I am the DM. If I don't write those well known Realms NPCs into my adventures, then they don't matter," is that it fails to account for player expectations.

One of the Realms greatest draws, and therefore, one of its greatest weaknesses, is its story. When TSR, and later WotC, publish stories where Elminster carries the power of a deity within himself, the Chosen flit about the known Realms chasing down and extinguishing spell plots and Elminster (again) is presented with his NPC game stats front and center at the start of the 3E FRCS in all of his proto-epic-level-rules glory...players (and not a few DMs) compare their characters to that.

Some of them conclude they're playing second fiddle. Or will, until their character achieves uber-epic-Chosen-slaying-awesomeness.

When players with some knowledge of the setting sit down at the gaming table, they will at some point expect to see Drizzt show up if the adventure is set in the North; Khelben or Laeral if in Waterdeep; Elminster or Dove or Storm if in Shadowdale, and so on.

The greater in power the PCs, the more likely they'll expect to rub shoulders with the big bosses.

Never mind all of the plot arcs in the various novels not dealing with Chosen that players might read and so expect their DM to be up to speed with and actively using.

This puts the onus on the DM to write those NPCs and those plots out or bluntly ignore them.

When people sit down to play D&D in the Realms, they want the Realms.

Players who are generous with their expectations will accept a DM altering things, but this leaves a gap between what a player perceives as the Realms and what the DM does.

That's not always an easy road to navigate.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).

Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 12 Apr 2014 01:18:08
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Kyrel
Learned Scribe

151 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2014 :  01:12:30  Show Profile  Visit Kyrel's Homepage Send Kyrel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jeremy. You have a good point. I'm partially guilty, as a player, of some of the stuff you mention. If I'm playing in the Realms, then I am expecting that the canon and statet/described stuff is true. I don't necessarily expect to meet up with it, but I do expect things to be where they are supposed to be. That being said, while I have to partially agree with you that if you are running around Shadowdale for long enough, then odds ought to be that you could run into Storm or Elminister, having a chance to encounter and share a beer with one of the big NPC's and hear about some of their exploits in character, that doesn't necessarily mean that they will get involved in the player's story and fights. But you are right. It is a bit of a balancing act, but it can be done successfully.
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2014 :  04:45:01  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bah, we've never read about Drizzt and Elminster meeting face to face, in any of the stories, even though they're both such notable personalities that they probably would've met at some point.

But it's still never actually been written about...

So if Drizzt has never actually met El (and vice versa), then how hard can it be to accept that your PCs aren't going to meet the one or the other, either?

Yes, some NPCs are big characters. But you know what? Toril is a planet--even bigger than Earth, I do believe. So there's a whole lot of space where your PCs can go and never bump into any NPCs at all.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2014 :  06:40:47  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think it's a matter of perspective and communication.

There is no "THE REALMS." If there were, then Ed's home game should be THE REALMS. It's not, as he's said himself.

Every DM is working with a copy. A parallel universe, where some things might have happened differently, and the future is always uncertain no matter how far in advance WotC plans out its product lines. The future of YOUR Realms must always be uncertain, because if it isn't then there's no role for the PCs to fill.

I'll have a go at building a campaign in Waterdeep, for example. But I haven't read all the novels touching Waterdeep. I don't have a list of who each of the nobles are flirting with. I do know that in my Realms Halaster is still mucking about in Undermountain, and Khelben is still his crotchedy self... because that's how my Waterdeep functions. As long as those two are around Waterdeep works in my mind, and I can work out the rest. Not because they're going to take care of everything for the PCs, but because without them the dungeon collapses, the city falls into the big hole in the ground, a dozen or more marginally peaceful dragons go rogue, artifacts and portals pop, and all hell breaks loose both literally and figuratively. So I have to communicate some of that to the players. Not the specific names, but the fact that this is MY Realms, and the novels' versions may or may not be relevant. This is a good thing, I think, because the challenges are less challenging and the victories are less satisfying, when the players can get answers from published stuff. I don't want to be constantly saying "Fine, YOU know who the Lords are, but your characters don't, so no, you can't blackmail them!"

Regardless of whether there are 20 books or zero books describing the place where the campaign is centered, it's the DM's job to bring life and mystery to the setting. And it's the players' job to make the best possible use of the information they get within the context of the campaign. Rely on outside stuff at your own risk.

That, and no matter how urgent the PCs might think their work is, there are always bigger foes to fry. Saving the world is a job, often dangerous and generally thankless. The big bad things happening in the world show that sometimes it's too much to be stopped. PCs wouldn't want the job, if they understood it. They'd be happy to let Elminster be Elminster, and they'd enlist more available & appropriate help. It's the DM's job to show the world in such a way that the players realize that. Then maybe, when Elminster happens to pop into the Old Skull while the PCs are there, they'll thank him and buy him a drink instead of demanding that he solve their problems for them.
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore

Poland
1190 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2014 :  08:31:12  Show Profile  Visit Zireael's Homepage Send Zireael a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Regardless of whether there are 20 books or zero books describing the place where the campaign is centered, it's the DM's job to bring life and mystery to the setting.


That's a good point.

However, as far as canon (and not your home game) goes, Markus has it right:
quote:
They never foresaw the inevitable problem, first with the very nature of shared worlds (the whole 'one-upmanship'), and then how that problem would lead to a bigger problem with the game setting - the bigger the stories, the more the world needed to change, and the quicker it changed. I still think the WORST case of this was back with the Ruins of Zhentil Keep, which was completely over-written with the very next product (snap of the fingers and everything is back the way it was).

So they wanted the stories to lead the game-lore, but when it began to lead to too fast and too hard, they had to constantly back-peddle. The number of times destroyed stuff was rebuilt in FR is preposterous, not to mention how many times folk return from the dead.


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sfdragon
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Posted - 12 Apr 2014 :  08:31:44  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
oh but you can go and employ Elminster for help with some of your problems.
ask for advice, I can see him giving it.... Khelben on the otherhand would only tell you what you needed to know.....

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2014 :  08:57:56  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael

However, as far as canon (and not your home game) goes, Markus has it right:


It's kinda weird how much Markus and I agree on. This is no exception. I'm at least as annoyed as anyone else about the escalation.
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2014 :  09:08:39  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

the problem was when TSR/WotC decided to go Hollywood and keep going for more BOOM. We had a lot of really good novels that never came close to big booms.


It's only slightly less often that I point at the screen and imperiously say "This!" in an empty room while reading Woolyposts.

This!

I actually started going off on a tangent about how the suits at WotC seem to want D&D to be like the movies and like MMORPGs, and how utterly fail that is, but I figured it was too ranty and deleted it. Not that being ranty usually stops me...

I could argue that in order to be a good novel (or sourcebook), it has to stop short of big boom. I can't think of any boom novels that I've liked. The stupidity of the whole TOT event prevented those from being enjoyable. I stopped after the first Returning Shades novel because of how poorly the phaerimm seemed to be interpreted... actually I'm not sure I even finished the first book.

Anyway, I haven't read any of the Sundering novels yet, so we'll see if that changes. /rant
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2014 :  09:32:40  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Having a lot of well developed and interesting NPC's is one of the best things about the realms. If you dont want them around in your homebrew then don't add them to it but I fail to see how one can consider them a disadvantage.
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Shadowsoul
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Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2014 :  11:38:39  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The biggest problem I see is metagaming. Everyone doesn't know about Elminster, Drizzt, and the Chosen. If you are in certain areas then you "may" hear about them, if your DM decides to do that.

I also can't stand when players read ahead of the DM and then expects his character to know everything the player does.

The Realms don't always need saving in my games. I think games now a days have made "saving the world" too much the default setting.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.

Edited by - Shadowsoul on 12 Apr 2014 11:42:25
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2014 :  11:47:47  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Books like "The Lost Library of Cormanthyr" and "Elfsong" are great because they aren't earth shattering.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Eltheron
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Posted - 12 Apr 2014 :  18:36:54  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The whole "players expect to meet novel NPCs" just doesn't wash. It sounds like it might happen, perhaps somewhere, but in years of game play none of the groups or players I've DMed for have ever asked to interact with NPCs from any novel.

My first game in the Realms was in an "alternate Realms" where the ToT didn't happen, and yet it was still the Realms. In fact, I can't recall ever playing in any Realms game where novels and events happened exactly as the canon Realms.

As xaeyruudh notes, no DM that I've ever met has read ALL the novels and supplements, and no DM I've ever played with has ever tried to incorporate "everything" - partly because they just don't know "everything" in canon, and partly because they don't want to incorporate everything. My own game world now leaves out a lot of canon events (most notably, no spellplague and no Abeir among other things).

So I just don't buy into the idea that players want to play in the Realms because they want to bump shoulders with NPCs like Elminster and Drizzt. The closest we've ever gotten was when one of my groups went to Silvermoon, but we never met Alustriel and really had no desire or need to do so.

In my experience, people play in the Realms because of the tone and feel, the desire to be from a particularly interesting city, or roleplay a character with a very particular Realmsian background. We thought about trying out the 4E Realms once, but this was spoiled when one of my players found out that Neverwinter had been nuked not just once but twice. He totally lost interest because he thought it'd be fun to be a gnomish clockmaker who took up an adventuring career. He couldn't, and we didn't like the oppressive dark tone of a post-cataclysm era, so we went back to an earlier era. But never once has anyone, in any game I've been involved in, asked to meet or interact with any novel character.

How would PCs even know about specific novel characters? Much less traipse off around half the world in search of them - and to do what, exactly? The very idea is really just strange.

It reminds me of when I played the Baldur's Gate cRPG series and ran into Elminster only half a day outside of Candlekeep. Then again later. And then eventually Drizzt. They were actually pretty dopey interactions, because they didn't add anything to the game and you couldn't really get anything out of them. Unless you attacked Drizzt and somehow managed to win, there was little point. Terrible.


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--Faraer

Edited by - Eltheron on 12 Apr 2014 18:45:10
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 12 Apr 2014 :  19:00:51  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Which is exactly why I have never read a fr novel nor will I, and why I remove every novel event from my campaigns except ToT and the Crusade (because thry have too much of an effect on modern realms)
Novels should always have been only a possible result of that story arc with an adventure to accompany it and then a sensible design team to decide on the result in the next sourcebook.
This current approach is nothing short of trash.

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Alystra Illianniis
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USA
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Posted - 12 Apr 2014 :  23:00:50  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've DM'ed for years, and in the few times I ever ran or played in the FR, I only used Drizzt ONCE. And it was just a one-shot encounter where he showed up, had a brief chat with the PC's, and disappeared off on his own business. It left the players feeling happy that they had actually met someone "famous", rubbing elbows with the FR equivalent of a celebrity, and no one got butt-hurt about not stacking up in a fight with said celeb. Win-win. I also had ONE player actually try to PLAY as Drizzt- which didn't last long. but in both cases, it was just a matter of someone wanting to do something that involved a novel character, and it was just for fun. No one in my games really reads the novels (most don't even know about them) so no one expects to run into those characters.

And since I almost always use my own homebrew world anyway, if someone from the Realms DOES show up (I've had it happen once or twice with El!) it's always because they took a wrong turn at Albequerque(sp?), so to speak. I've even -ported a few of my HB world PC/NPC's INTO the Realms just for fun and for dramatic purposes, to varying degrees of success. One trio (and a gnome who for some reason keeps tagging along) has even made a permanent home there now. But rarely do I include anything in my games involving canon characters even indirectly. It's not hard to do, you just either stay out of their backyards, or have them busy elsewhere, even if it's just doing their laundry that day.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 13 Apr 2014 :  06:16:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Which is exactly why I have never read a fr novel nor will I, and why I remove every novel event from my campaigns except ToT and the Crusade (because thry have too much of an effect on modern realms)
Novels should always have been only a possible result of that story arc with an adventure to accompany it and then a sensible design team to decide on the result in the next sourcebook.
This current approach is nothing short of trash.



Maybe it's just me, but reading fiction set within a setting makes the setting come more alive for me. I've avoided a couple of games entirely, because there was no associated fiction.

Fiction set within a setting can also help the setting keep from stagnating. I got bored with Dragonlance because -- at that time -- no one was moving the timeline forward, and almost all of the fiction was just exploring different aspects of the past.

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Jeremy Grenemyer
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USA
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Posted - 13 Apr 2014 :  07:38:27  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh

I think it's a matter of perspective and communication.

There is no "THE REALMS."
Sure there is.

It's in every sourcebook and novel a gamer reads and in every Realms computer game they experience.

It's in their prior experiences playing in the Realms and the stories they've heard from their friends.

It's also (unfortunately) in the content they've read online about the Realms.

It's content that drives people to play D&D in the Realms because it excites and interests them, and it's that content players expect to see (or assume is already there) when they play in the Realms.

Whey DMs run games in the 3E Realms (the best Realms there is, along with the best D&D rules ever written, thank you very much) they can use the rules to reflect the setting in their characters.

I don't know how many games I've been in where someone tried to create a Drizzt clone. Why? Hell, why not? How often can you sit at a gaming table where nobody knows who Drizzt is?

As much as I agree with you on what a DM's responsibilities are, none of this changes the fact that player expectations come preset to the gaming table.

I'll point out that relying on information as presented in a campaign doesn't mean it's a player's responsibility to ignore or forget what they know about the Realms.

This doesn't excuse metagaming, mind, but it does mean that a player can reasonably expect there to be a place called Waterdeep filled with Hidden Lords and a certain arrogant archmage in Blackstaff tower.

Yes there are players out there who're ignorant of the Realms, but the scope of the problem doesn't include these people.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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