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Berkthgar
Learned Scribe

USA
163 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2013 :  00:39:25  Show Profile Send Berkthgar a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
What was jarlaxle's history with zak, his house allegiance, etc? Was he beanre? How did he get so elevated in society without ever really being challenged by any other drow?

Was jarlaxle evil before or did he always have a code of honor?

“Change is not always growth, but growth is often rooted in change.
Drizzt Do'Urden”

Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
826 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2013 :  01:13:32  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by khanio07

What was jarlaxle's history with zak, his house allegiance, etc? Was he beanre? How did he get so elevated in society without ever really being challenged by any other drow?

Was jarlaxle evil before or did he always have a code of honor?


Road of the Patriarch details a bit of early Jarlaxle history.

I could give you spoilers, but why not just read it :) Its a good book
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2013 :  02:36:58  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I fail to see how being evil and having a code of honor are mutually exclusive.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

489 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2013 :  03:52:45  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by khanio07

What was jarlaxle's history with zak, his house allegiance, etc? Was he beanre? How did he get so elevated in society without ever really being challenged by any other drow?

Was jarlaxle evil before or did he always have a code of honor?



As Firestorm mentions, Road of the Patriarch gives as much detail on Jarlaxle's past as we're likely to get for a while. It was an excellent book in my opinion, and arguably Salvatore's most underrated novel. We receive a lot of insight into Entreri's background as well. Both characters have some memorable dialogue with Kimmuriel, and with Gareth Dragonsbane. Do yourself a favor and read that book.

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Berkthgar
Learned Scribe

USA
163 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2013 :  13:44:31  Show Profile Send Berkthgar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you guys for the book suggestion? Is it part of the cleric quintet series? Is that the series where the shard is destroyed?

“Change is not always growth, but growth is often rooted in change.
Drizzt Do'Urden”
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1150 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2013 :  13:50:45  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Cleric Quintet was published many years before the Sellswords trilogy, of which Road of the Patriarch is part.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2013 :  19:07:45  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by khanio07

What was jarlaxle's history with zak, his house allegiance, etc?

We're told that Jar is also a graduate of Melee-Magthere. Perhaps they were peers in the same class?

Jar has said that he and Zak were friends. Drizzt has imagined them running through the streets of Menzo raising all kinds of hell together.

Jar spent centuries assembling the war band Bregan D'aerthe, but it only rose to prominence in the century before Drizzt's birth.

Jar has a history of putting others in charge while he observes from the sidelines, or even goes off galavanting around. I have speculated that it is possible that he might've similarly done so with Zaknafein, putting him in charge of Bregan D'aerthe in its earliest days. (If you're gonna start a radical mostly-male band in a city ruled by a matriarchy, it probably wouldn't be a very good idea to be the face of the organization at first, at least until you had found out whether the organization was going to be tolerated.)

At some point, this relationship soured, though, for Jarlaxle somehow betrayed Zaknafein. Jar has said that Zak thought Jar was a better fighter than he, but Jar then admitted that he only bested Zak through trickery. Was this the betrayal? Or did Jar, as I have conjectured, betray Zak in some such way so as to take Bregan D'aerthe away from the weaponsmaster, leaving Zak to suffer a life subordinate to Matron Malice Do'Urden?

We don't know yet, because Bob hasn't told us. He's such a tease!

quote:
Was he beanre?

This was first answered right at the end of Servant of the Shard, and then explained in detail in Road of the Patriarch.

quote:
How did he get so elevated in society without ever really being challenged by any other drow?

Well, we don't know that he was never challenged by other drow. In fact, he almost certainly was.

But he overcame any and all challenges that came his way through bribery, manipulation, compromise, negotiation, wagering, seduction, theft, trickery, and assassination--whatever made him the most profit, or cost him the least, in the long run.

He most likely had special privileges granted by the First House along the way, as well. ROTP explains why.

quote:
Was jarlaxle evil before or did he always have a code of honor?

Jarlaxle has definitely been evil for most of his life. He has had a callous disregard for the suffering of others, whenever it was associated with his profit. This has been his nature through the novel The Pirate King.

It is only in the last few Drizzt books (The Ghost King and on) that Jarlaxle has started to seem like he has a bit of a conscience; although we really don't know if he wants to emulate Drizzt because he understands morals and honor, or if he simply sees it as a way to even better achieve independence from the Menzo matriarchy.

For some reason, I get the impression that Jarlaxle is like a person who wants to join a certain church because they throw the coolest parties, or because they have the hottest women in their choir, or some other superficial reason. I am not fully convinced yet that he really, truly gets the reason behind Drizzt's lifestyle, or that he is actually prepared to walk in Drizzt's footsteps. He might just want the trappings of Drizzt's renegade life, without actually being willing to do the work. Time will tell . . .

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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Portella
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
247 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2013 :  23:59:27  Show Profile  Visit Portella's Homepage Send Portella a Private Message  Reply with Quote
sellswords was a awesome collection i want more of it.

Purple you say?!


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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2013 :  00:01:32  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If memory serves, isn't there something like a two or three century age gap between Jarlaxle and Zaknafien, with Jarlaxle being the older? With that in mind it would seem to me that the most likely relationship would not have been necessarily as peers, but starting as mentor and mentee, and if I were being very generous, perhaps growing from there into a brotherly bond.

Of course, my memory's a bit spotty so I could be off base in regards to the age difference.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2013 :  01:39:20  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

If memory serves, isn't there something like a two or three century age gap between Jarlaxle and Zaknafien, with Jarlaxle being the older? With that in mind it would seem to me that the most likely relationship would not have been necessarily as peers, but starting as mentor and mentee, and if I were being very generous, perhaps growing from there into a brotherly bond.

Of course, my memory's a bit spotty so I could be off base in regards to the age difference.

I'm not sure. But I don't think we've ever been told Jar's age.

His big brother is way old, for sure. And context clues about his mother's age and her progeny would seem to indicate that he must be pretty darn old, himself. He was the thirdborn son out of 21 children, so his birth probably took place a long, long time ago. So it's perfectly possible that you're right.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2013 :  03:28:44  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can swear I've seen his age pegged at being around 700 pre-time skip, though I can't seem to find the reference at the moment. Meanwhile, Zak's age is listed in his fourth century around the time he died.

But you make a good point. I'm not sure I buy Jarlaxle's mom taking sixteen hundred years to pop out three boys.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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Madpig
Learned Scribe

Finland
148 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2013 :  08:03:07  Show Profile Send Madpig a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

I can swear I've seen his age pegged at being around 700 pre-time skip, though I can't seem to find the reference at the moment. Meanwhile, Zak's age is listed in his fourth century around the time he died.

But you make a good point. I'm not sure I buy Jarlaxle's mom taking sixteen hundred years to pop out three boys.



I think both miss the obivous. Jar was third LIVING son. Not neccessarily third in birth order. Also thing what grinds me is that Matron Baenre had three living sons and that was fine with everybody. I mean she had Gromph, Dantrag and Bergyon. Why was Bergyon not sacrificed?

And you could calculate Jar's maximum age by taking to consideration that Matron Kyorl Orldobra (sp) saved Jar. How old was Kyorl when she died? Timeframe can be further calculated by the fact that Jar was older than Dantrag, because Kyorl's psionic ability got Jar's elder brother dead (obiviously not Gromph).
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2013 :  19:01:45  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Madpig

I think both miss the obivous. Jar was third LIVING son. Not neccessarily third in birth order.

No, madpig, it is you who is missing something, here. The Menzo drow tradition is to sacrifice the third born son--not the third living son. Once the third born son is sacrificed, a matron mother is free to continue to have more sons and let them live. It is only the first time that three sons exist that she must sacrifice that third son--not every time she has three sons alive.

quote:
Also thing what grinds me is that Matron Baenre had three living sons and that was fine with everybody. I mean she had Gromph, Dantrag and Bergyon. Why was Bergyon not sacrificed?

Because Berg'inyon was not the third born son. Gromph was first, Doquaio was second, and you-know-who was third, per Road of the Patriarch. Jarlaxle was only the third living son for less than a day, as Second-Son Doquaio ended up being killed shortly after Jar's birth. We're not even really sure what number in the sequence Dantrag was. Berg'inyon was Baenre's twenty-first child, and there's no telling how many sons were still alive by that point. Homeland says that out of 21 children, Baenre had raised 15 high priestesses, so perhaps that means that she gave birth to 6 sons, which would make Berg'inyon son #6.

OTOH, what interests me is that Matron Malice never followed through with her obligation to sacrifice her third born son, Drizzt. She and her daughters equivocated on the issue, and didn't do it. I believe that this, coupled with the fact that she never followed through with Blooding Zaknafein either, should have been enough to end her rule of House Do'Urden long before Drizzt began to express sacrilegious views.

quote:
And you could calculate Jar's maximum age by taking to consideration that Matron Kyorl Orldobra (sp) saved Jar. How old was Kyorl when she died? Timeframe can be further calculated by the fact that Jar was older than Dantrag, because Kyorl's psionic ability got Jar's elder brother dead (obiviously not Gromph).

We've never been told how old Kyorl was.

But since Matron Baenre lived for 2043 years, and Gromph was 700 around 1358 DR when she died, then Baenre went 1300 years without giving birth to her first son. She probably had a whole lot of those 15 daughters first. Regardless, since Gromp was Elderson and aged 700, then Jar would have to be less than 700 years old in 1358 DR.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">

Edited by - BEAST on 20 Dec 2013 19:07:03
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2013 :  21:40:47  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hrm. It occurs to me that I might have mentally transposed Jarlaxle and Gromph's ages.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2013 :  23:44:36  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST

quote:
Originally posted by Madpig

I think both miss the obivous. Jar was third LIVING son. Not neccessarily third in birth order.

No, madpig, it is you who is missing something, here. The Menzo drow tradition is to sacrifice the third born son--not the third living son. Once the third born son is sacrificed, a matron mother is free to continue to have more sons and let them live. It is only the first time that three sons exist that she must sacrifice that third son--not every time she has three sons alive.

quote:
Also thing what grinds me is that Matron Baenre had three living sons and that was fine with everybody. I mean she had Gromph, Dantrag and Bergyon. Why was Bergyon not sacrificed?

Because Berg'inyon was not the third born son. Gromph was first, Doquaio was second, and you-know-who was third, per Road of the Patriarch. Jarlaxle was only the third living son for less than a day, as Second-Son Doquaio ended up being killed shortly after Jar's birth. We're not even really sure what number in the sequence Dantrag was. Berg'inyon was Baenre's twenty-first child, and there's no telling how many sons were still alive by that point. Homeland says that out of 21 children, Baenre had raised 15 high priestesses, so perhaps that means that she gave birth to 6 sons, which would make Berg'inyon son #6.

OTOH, what interests me is that Matron Malice never followed through with her obligation to sacrifice her third born son, Drizzt. She and her daughters equivocated on the issue, and didn't do it. I believe that this, coupled with the fact that she never followed through with Blooding Zaknafein either, should have been enough to end her rule of House Do'Urden long before Drizzt began to express sacrilegious views.

quote:
And you could calculate Jar's maximum age by taking to consideration that Matron Kyorl Orldobra (sp) saved Jar. How old was Kyorl when she died? Timeframe can be further calculated by the fact that Jar was older than Dantrag, because Kyorl's psionic ability got Jar's elder brother dead (obiviously not Gromph).

We've never been told how old Kyorl was.

But since Matron Baenre lived for 2043 years, and Gromph was 700 around 1358 DR when she died, then Baenre went 1300 years without giving birth to her first son. She probably had a whole lot of those 15 daughters first. Regardless, since Gromp was Elderson and aged 700, then Jar would have to be less than 700 years old in 1358 DR.



Drizzt wasn't killed because the day he was born, his older brother was killed. He then became the second born child.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2013 :  01:13:44  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

Drizzt wasn't killed because the day he was born, his older brother was killed. He then became the second born child.

No, that's not right, either. Nalfein was the first born son, and Dinin the second born son, and Drizzt was the third born son. Shortly after Drizzt was born, there were three living sons all at the same time. But then Dinin killed Nalfein, and at that point, there were only two living sons.

But that doesn't change the fact that Drizzt was still the third born son. Two other sons had, in fact, been born to Matron Malice before he had.

I'm thinking Bob's formulation of this particular Menzo tradition may have evolved over time, through the various books, so we're all thinking of different passages and the different ways that the tradition was stated. In some places, it says that the third living son was sacrificed, while in later passages, it says that the third born son is the one who is sacrificed.

Either way, third born is the only version that really fits the story. Otherwise, matron mothers would all have to kill off all of their extra sons whenever they have more than two, and we know that just doesn't happen.

Bob clarified this on his message boards a few years back. It's third born, and not third living.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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Madpig
Learned Scribe

Finland
148 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2013 :  07:00:55  Show Profile Send Madpig a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST

quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

Drizzt wasn't killed because the day he was born, his older brother was killed. He then became the second born child.

No, that's not right, either. Nalfein was the first born son, and Dinin the second born son, and Drizzt was the third born son. Shortly after Drizzt was born, there were three living sons all at the same time. But then Dinin killed Nalfein, and at that point, there were only two living sons.

But that doesn't change the fact that Drizzt was still the third born son. Two other sons had, in fact, been born to Matron Malice before he had.

I'm thinking Bob's formulation of this particular Menzo tradition may have evolved over time, through the various books, so we're all thinking of different passages and the different ways that the tradition was stated. In some places, it says that the third living son was sacrificed, while in later passages, it says that the third born son is the one who is sacrificed.

Either way, third born is the only version that really fits the story. Otherwise, matron mothers would all have to kill off all of their extra sons whenever they have more than two, and we know that just doesn't happen.

Bob clarified this on his message boards a few years back. It's third born, and not third living.



As i think of this it makes more sense. Because sacrifical thing as i proposed would lead to society what would have like 30/70 ratio on male-female. And that is most certainly not the case.

Strange, Kyorl's age is not mentioned in any source?

Another OT is that Triel was matron Baenre's eldest daughter. So either quite many childs have died prior to Homeland or Yvonnel was rather infertile in her earlier life.
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2013 :  14:17:18  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST

quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

Drizzt wasn't killed because the day he was born, his older brother was killed. He then became the second born child.

No, that's not right, either. Nalfein was the first born son, and Dinin the second born son, and Drizzt was the third born son. Shortly after Drizzt was born, there were three living sons all at the same time. But then Dinin killed Nalfein, and at that point, there were only two living sons.

But that doesn't change the fact that Drizzt was still the third born son. Two other sons had, in fact, been born to Matron Malice before he had.

I'm thinking Bob's formulation of this particular Menzo tradition may have evolved over time, through the various books, so we're all thinking of different passages and the different ways that the tradition was stated. In some places, it says that the third living son was sacrificed, while in later passages, it says that the third born son is the one who is sacrificed.

Either way, third born is the only version that really fits the story. Otherwise, matron mothers would all have to kill off all of their extra sons whenever they have more than two, and we know that just doesn't happen.

Bob clarified this on his message boards a few years back. It's third born, and not third living.



I will find the passage in Homeland and post it when I get home. They were about to kill Drizzt when they found out his brother was killed so they held off. Now if RAS wants to go against what he wrote then fair enough but it is there in black and white.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2013 :  15:08:24  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Madpig

As i think of this it makes more sense. Because sacrifical thing as i proposed would lead to society what would have like 30/70 ratio on male-female. And that is most certainly not the case.

Oh, I think it would be an even worse ratio than that. Homeland said that there were 66 houses and an overall population of 20,000 drow in Menzo at the time of Drizzt's birth. So that would give us 66 matron mothers, and if each matron mother were only allowed 2 sons each, a total of 132 male drow in the entire city. 132 males in a city of 20,000? That gives us 132 males to 19,868 females, or a ratio of 1/150.5!

Damn, them dudes were busy! No wonder the males of Menzo couldn't mount a successful rebellion against the matriarchy: they would've been too worn out!

quote:
Strange, Kyorl's age is not mentioned in any source?

Nope, the best I could find was a reference to the time of her rue of House Oblodra, which was said to be from 961 to 1358 DR (Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue), which is 397 years. So she had to have been older than that, but by how much, I cannot say.

quote:
Another OT is that Triel was matron Baenre's eldest daughter. So either quite many childs have died prior to Homeland or Yvonnel was rather infertile in her earlier life.

Either that, or she was a prototype of the modern, professional woman, who puts her career first and decides to start a family later in life.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">

Edited by - BEAST on 21 Dec 2013 15:21:51
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2013 :  15:42:42  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

I will find the passage in Homeland and post it when I get home. They were about to kill Drizzt when they found out his brother was killed so they held off. Now if RAS wants to go against what he wrote then fair enough but it is there in black and white.

As I already conceded, the way the tradition has been described or explained has evolved or changed over time. Methinks Bob got to thinking this through, and realized that a ratio of 1:150.5 just wouldn't work. So he modified it. No harm; no foul.

It's not exactly that he went against what he wrote earlier. When Drizzt came into the world as the third born son of House Do'Urden, he was, at that time, also the third living son of the House. So Matron Mother Malice was set to sacrifice both the third born and the third living son, at that time. Bob's further refinement of the tradition to specifically target third born sons doesn't contradict anything, so much as it refines or narrows it down a bit more. And I don't see anything wrong with that.

But that does still leave us with the task of figuring out what to do with Matron Malice's decision to halt the sacrifice of Drizzt. Do we, as you say, just chalk it up to Bob "going against what he wrote" earlier? Do we reduce it to writer and editor error? Or do we seek out an in-world, in-context explanation for it, in such a manner as to try to preserve the legitimacy of the lore as we have it, while still interpreting the characters' actions as being in-character?

I choose the latter.

Like I said, Matron Malice was supposed to test Zak earlier in life, but she didn't follow through on that, either. And he displayed an irreverent, sacrilegious bent throughout his life, but she tolerated it, and kept him alive, despite the insult to Lolth, her handmaidens, and her priestesses. So Matron Malice clearly wasn't above bending or outright breaking the rules, whenever it pleased her.

When we're told that Malice was sure that she would bear no more children after Drizzt, that she was cognizant and aware of the end of her fertility like that, then this makes me tend to think all the more that the she had ample motive to bend the rules yet again, when it came to deciding whether or not to kill Drizzt. She was only going to have 6 kids, and the Elderson had just suddenly died, leaving her with 4 at the time, so how in the Hells was she going to just blindly whack the next and last son, too? I see it as a moment of weakness, in the life of an emotionally insecure matron mother. It was just one more slight to the Way of Lolth, and yet another offense for Lolth's handmaidens to take into account against the matron mother. So she had the end of House Do'Urden coming to her, for a long, long time.

Isn't that a better, more elegant way to look at it, rather than throwing our hands up in the air and saying "Bob screwed up, again!"?

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2013 :  15:57:16  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Because we enjoy tearing apart his work every chance we get?

But seriously, there are lots of ways to spin things. Personally, I think she may have taken the death of her elder son as a 'sign' from Lolth that the terms of her religion - the 'sacrifice' - had already been met. Lolth is all about chaos - some even theorize that Drizzt himself may be 'favored of Lolth', just because of his non-conformity.

Think about it - there is no 'right way' to interpret the signs of a fickle (chaotic) deity. You would be able to read into anything, and each follower could interpret it all differently (which is probably precisely what she wants - adversity makes her people stronger).

So Drizzt and Jaralxle could be mistakes... or.. they could be precisely what she's been wanting for a long time. Since their appearance on the surface, Drow have now gone from being 'kill on sight' monsters to people, and surface dwellers now look at them a bit differently. Jarlaxle even points this out to Drizzt. What better way to get close to your enemies then walk amongst them?

Lolth knows what she is doing. She's had many years to meditate on her past failures, and create new plans. She may have spoken directly to Matron Mother Malice, and told her, "I have plans for those two".

We just don't know what happens when the curtain closes - the bits of the story we never get to see.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 21 Dec 2013 15:59:21
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Chosen of Asmodeus
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Posted - 21 Dec 2013 :  19:06:02  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST

quote:
Originally posted by Madpig

As i think of this it makes more sense. Because sacrifical thing as i proposed would lead to society what would have like 30/70 ratio on male-female. And that is most certainly not the case.

Oh, I think it would be an even worse ratio than that. Homeland said that there were 66 houses and an overall population of 20,000 drow in Menzo at the time of Drizzt's birth. So that would give us 66 matron mothers, and if each matron mother were only allowed 2 sons each, a total of 132 male drow in the entire city. 132 males in a city of 20,000? That gives us 132 males to 19,868 females, or a ratio of 1/150.5!

Damn, them dudes were busy! No wonder the males of Menzo couldn't mount a successful rebellion against the matriarchy: they would've been too worn out!





There's an issue with this line of thought, and I think it's an issue that has plagued drow as a whole for a lot of years.

The main thing is that those 66 drow houses represent the nobility of the drow world. Not every drow belongs to a house. They do have commoners. The drow we read about tend to be in the top 1% of their society, but there's a whole mass of ordinary people in Menzoberranzan who just go about ordinary lives that never really gets touched on. I mean all those soldiers fighting for the houses aren't actually members of those houses, they're servants of the houses; those servants have to be drawn from somewhere.

It's also a point that the noble houses themselves should be a little bigger than they are. I don't know if Bob just didn't think about it early on, or it was just a conservation of detail that never got updated, but something that hasn't really been accounted for is branch houses;did Malice and old lady Baenree have no brothers or sisters themselves? If they did, did they have no children? Why were Malice's children so slow to produce offspring? Is there a rule stating only the matron mother's allowed to procreate?


Either The Last Threshold or Chaorn's Claw, I forget which, mentions Baenre cousins, and I suppose you could write off a general lack of inclusion of extended families by saying they're more prone to end up as casualties of inter-house rivalries than members of the main house, but it's something that just kind of paints the picture of smaller families than logically should exist.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 21 Dec 2013 :  22:05:08  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Personally, I think she may have taken the death of her elder son as a 'sign' from Lolth that the terms of her religion - the 'sacrifice' - had already been met.


That was how I interpreted it, when I read it.

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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 22 Dec 2013 :  00:56:22  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

But seriously, there are lots of ways to spin things. Personally, I think she may have taken the death of her elder son as a 'sign' from Lolth that the terms of her religion - the 'sacrifice' - had already been met. Lolth is all about chaos - some even theorize that Drizzt himself may be 'favored of Lolth', just because of his non-conformity.

Think about it - there is no 'right way' to interpret the signs of a fickle (chaotic) deity. You would be able to read into anything, and each follower could interpret it all differently (which is probably precisely what she wants - adversity makes her people stronger).

I have interpreted "third born" and "third living" son to be the same, in many cases.

But you are saying that Malice somehow interpreted "first born" to be the same as (or at least a fitting substitute for) "third born" and/or "third living" son. I don't get that at all.

Malice and her daughters equivocated, in a highly irrational sense. Now, I don't think many people would argue with a hormonal, war-crazed matron mother who had just popped out a kid and was still reeling from both war and childbirth, so I get why her daughters went along with it. But her explanation for not whacking Drizzt was still irrational.

If the law says to kill a baby murderer, and on the day of the execution a banker gets run over by a car and dies, the law demanding that the baby murderer be executed still has not been fulfilled or satisfied, no matter how one might tright to spin it. They're not the same people; it's not the same thing.

I'm with you on Lolth accepting it, though, since she's a goddess of chaos. I just think that we should recognize that that's apparently what was happening: Lolth was looking the other way when one of her matron mothers was flagrantly violating a law/tradition. And what Lolth giveth, Lolth taketh away. She turned around and smote Matron Malice later on, though, for a whole slew of blunders that she had amassed up to that point, and because her slipperiness had apparently ceased to be intriguing and entertaining.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 22 Dec 2013 :  01:06:12  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

The main thing is that those 66 drow houses represent the nobility of the drow world. Not every drow belongs to a house. They do have commoners. The drow we read about tend to be in the top 1% of their society, but there's a whole mass of ordinary people in Menzoberranzan who just go about ordinary lives that never really gets touched on. I mean all those soldiers fighting for the houses aren't actually members of those houses, they're servants of the houses; those servants have to be drawn from somewhere.

I'm not sure why that matters. If the commoner mothers had to kill their third living sons, as well, then we would still end up with an awfully lop-sided population . . .

. . . and a small number of extremely busy males.

quote:
It's also a point that the noble houses themselves should be a little bigger than they are. I don't know if Bob just didn't think about it early on, or it was just a conservation of detail that never got updated, but something that hasn't really been accounted for is branch houses;did Malice and old lady Baenree have no brothers or sisters themselves? If they did, did they have no children? Why were Malice's children so slow to produce offspring? Is there a rule stating only the matron mother's allowed to procreate?

Either The Last Threshold or Chaorn's Claw, I forget which, mentions Baenre cousins, and I suppose you could write off a general lack of inclusion of extended families by saying they're more prone to end up as casualties of inter-house rivalries than members of the main house, but it's something that just kind of paints the picture of smaller families than logically should exist.

This was briefly touched upon in the early drow books, as well. It was mentioned that whenever priestesses had children, they were sent out to form houses of their own.

Never mind her children: why was Malice so slow to produce children? Only 6 kids in 500 years?! Malice was a total cougar, so she shouldn't've had any problem getting knocked up, left and right.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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Eilserus
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Posted - 22 Dec 2013 :  01:38:33  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Didn't the 2E Drow of the Underdark say the average drow will produce 10 children over the course of her life?
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Kyrel
Learned Scribe

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Posted - 22 Dec 2013 :  11:42:56  Show Profile  Visit Kyrel's Homepage Send Kyrel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You know Beast, you and I seem to have a pretty different interpretation of that scene with Drizzt's death *LOL*

Lloth demand the sacrifice of every 3rd born son, but as an entity of chaos, I can quite easily follow the reasoning of Malice in Homeland after Drizzt's birth. The birth of the 3rd son has just taken place, and the sacrifice is about to take place. An older boy, however, is killed, and I frankly don't see it as a far stretch of the rules for Malice to deem that the conditions of the dictate have been met. The ultimate effect is the same. 1/3 of the sons born have been killed, and he's been killed A) around the right time, and B) in relation to an event centered around the birth (we know that the attack was timed with the birth of Drizzt, as they intended to use the birthing pain to fuel the magical attack upon the priestesses of the other house). So arguably the end result of the dictate has taken place, and a male soul has been sent to Lloth during an event related to the childbirth. It doesn't meet the dictates directly, but it's not a far stretch to say that it meets the conditions in spirit, and that a deity of chaos will accept that as "good enough". Malice and the rest of the House also remain solidly within Lloth's favour, right up until Drizzt elects to spare the elven child during the surface raid.

P.S.
As a side comment to the previous debate about Matron Baenre and her children and their respective ages, bear in mind that though Gomph might be the oldest living son, he is not necessarily the first born of the Baenre children, and though we know that Jarlaxle is the 3rd born Baenre son, that does not mean that he could not be the i.e. 18th child born to his mother.
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
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Posted - 22 Dec 2013 :  13:31:08  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
“Queen of Spiders, take this babe.” she began. She raised the dagger to strike. “Drizzt Do’Urden we give to you in payment for our glorious vic..”
“Wait!” called Maya from the side of the room. Her melding with her brother Nalfein had abruptly ceased. It could only mean one thing. “Nalfein is dead.” she announced. “The baby is no longer the third living son.”

From Homeland.

RAS has it in black and white so I'm not sure why there would be any confusion. This is why Drizzt was allowed to live.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 22 Dec 2013 :  15:38:32  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The sacrifice of the third born son is a customary tradition in Menzoberranzan. Tradition is not the same as dogma. Lolth, being a deity of chaos makes rules "set in stone" few, and uncertainty great. The scene you mentioned above is then followed up with Briza arguing that it would be worse to not sacrifice Drizzt and give Lolth what she was already promised (Drizzt). Maya then tells her to complete the deed, but Matron Malice stays her hand. Lolth accepted the sacrifice of Nalfein in leu of Drizzt is the only reason Drizzt is still alive. That was how Malice rationalized sparing the child.
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 22 Dec 2013 :  20:05:17  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kyrel

You know Beast, you and I seem to have a pretty different interpretation of that scene with Drizzt's death *LOL*

Lloth demand the sacrifice of every 3rd born son, but as an entity of chaos, I can quite easily follow the reasoning of Malice in Homeland after Drizzt's birth. The birth of the 3rd son has just taken place, and the sacrifice is about to take place. An older boy, however, is killed, and I frankly don't see it as a far stretch of the rules for Malice to deem that the conditions of the dictate have been met. The ultimate effect is the same. 1/3 of the sons born have been killed, and he's been killed A) around the right time, and B) in relation to an event centered around the birth (we know that the attack was timed with the birth of Drizzt, as they intended to use the birthing pain to fuel the magical attack upon the priestesses of the other house). So arguably the end result of the dictate has taken place, and a male soul has been sent to Lloth during an event related to the childbirth. It doesn't meet the dictates directly, but it's not a far stretch to say that it meets the conditions in spirit, and that a deity of chaos will accept that as "good enough". Malice and the rest of the House also remain solidly within Lloth's favour, right up until Drizzt elects to spare the elven child during the surface raid.

Well, Matron Malice apparently went most of her life doing things that she thought was "good enough".

At the end of Homeland, knowing that she was no longer in Lolth's favor because of her sacrilegious son, Malice was supposed to sacrifice Drizzt. But yet again, she substituted someone else in his stead, and killed his father Zaknafein.

And then it bit her in the arse. She entered into a ten-year-long war of nothingness with House Hun'ett, and even when she won, she was told that she still did not have Lolth's favor, and was forced to attempt the Zin-carla ritual. And that failed, too. And then she was terminated.

Just because Lolth does not punish someone immediately on the spot doesn't necessarily mean that she is pleased. (Even when someone does do what they're told immediately on the spot doesn't necessarily mean that she is pleased, either.)

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2013 :  20:30:45  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul


RAS has it in black and white so I'm not sure why there would be any confusion. This is why Drizzt was allowed to live.

Actually, RAS had it in black and white in 1990--23 years ago. A whole lot of other black and white has been written on the subject since then, and it doesn't jibe with that first formulation 100%. Hence, the confusion.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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