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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 08:36:27

After some discussion on Narathmault led to a look into what came before the Days of Thunder and the Fey creator race i'm going to see if people fancy brainstorming a fey ideas about what Faerun would be like at this time.

So it is before the sarrukh and batrachi and aeree races become established.

The lay of the land i picture as being one massive forested region. The hints are there when reading GHoTR, forests cover massive tracts of Faerun extending from Chult all the way to The Spine of the World.

Of course the land is slightly different. There is no Great Glacier, no Sea of Fallen Stars, the Sword Coastline is probably very different as well (the first and second sundering technically hadn't happened yet).

Now i picture that animals exist in this world, maybe even dinosaurs, and a smattering of primal humans and other creator races. The batrachi still dwell in the oceans at this point, the sarrukh and aeree are probably in a similar position as the humans scrabbling around among the trees in a tribal society of sorts.

Into this primitive land come the Fey creator race through portals from the plane of Faerie.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 09:07:45

The Fey

Now i know canon says the Fey creator race are the LeShay but i dont agree with canon on many things and it always changes in the end.

The Fey were not a single race after all, they were and are a collection of races that come together to cooperate. The satyr, the pixies, nixies, sprites, fairies, hybsil, uldra, all manner of creatures that live together in relative peace and cooperation.

The original fey creatures that migrated to Toril were the Faeries, spritely creatures that were mutable, able to change form relatively quickly with time given environmental and magical pressures.

These fey creatures practiced a totemic pact magic that allowed them to bind abilities from other beings to themselves so that they could use these abilities themselves. This was most often performed between fey and their archfey lords but as the fey influence spread across Faerun they encountered all manner of animals and other beings that they attempted to bind in order to gain new abilities and better understand these creatures.

This binding had unintended consequences that the fey could not have foreseen. In animals and dumb creatures it sometimes caused the creation of Telthors; fey spirits, upon the death of these creatures. Overtime, Faerun began to fill up with these spirit beings that protected the land and infused into it strengthening the links between Toril and Faerie.

In the semi-intelligent but primitive humanoid creatures - the sarrukh, batrachi, aeree, and humans - it awoke the spark of sentience that would eventually signal the downfall of the fey realms.

The fey were not one big cohesive society and indeed had no close links to other fey beyond what tribe they currently inhabited or archfey they served at any one particular time.

However all fey recognised the authority of the Seelie Court (or Unseelie Court in the case of dark and twisted fey) on Faerie. In ancient times the links between Faerun and Faerie were so close that one could literally walk through the veil between these worlds without the need for portals. Such places existed in the Hordelands basin in the east and in a land now sunk beneath the waves of the Trackless Sea. These were the places where the fey first migrated to Toril and where fey influence was strongest.

The Seelie Court would even spend some time in these areas on Toril marvelling at the beauty the fey were creating and making judgements and giving advice as needed.

Edited by - Gary Dallison on 02 Jan 2014 10:14:29

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11695 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 13:50:07

Of course I like this idea (given we were both discussing it). One thing to note is that in the unapproachable east, the first cultures to start having deities may have been the more brutal/bestial ones (Vaprak over ogres and trolls, Grolantor over hill and frost giants, possibly Thrym over frost giants, etc...). Therefore, "gods" may have been looked upon by the east as very evil entities. Thus, primordial beings may have been given more reverence in the east.

Also, the dead who died in the east didn't go to the outer planes necessarily, because there were no gods to claim their souls. Perhaps it was that these "fey" began taking on the spirits of various animals. However, before they took on animal spirits themselves, perhaps they experimented on the proto-humans in the area. Perhaps the curse of lyncanthropy came from this original experimentation. Perhaps some of the original shapechangers came about from absorbing many, many animal spirits.

BTW, one thing that hit me of interest when looking at Grolantor on the web. He apparently mated with the hag goddess Cegilune. I think this fits well with the hag society we were discussing. Unfortunately, its a web reference, so I don't know of the original reference.

"Grolantor is evil second and stupid first, disowned by his brothers for his foolishness and relative weakness. Some say he created the race of hill giants by collecting and interbreeding the runts of earlier giant broods, then further polluted this stock by mating with various serpents, medusa-like hags, and the goddess Cegilune."

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 14:23:16

I'm not so sure about the giants in the east. Batrachi and sarrukh were around first and they definitely had gods, in fact after certain gods splintered they had hundreds of gods.

This time of the fey i picture in the millenia before the days of thunder before the sarrukh, batrachi and other races achieved civilisation, when they were still running around hitting each other with sticks.

Giants arrived late on Toril - after the days of thunder. And their empires stretched from the lands centred on Vaasa down to the Shaar according to some sources.

However nothing is ever mentioned of Impiltur, The Great Dale, and Rashemen, when it comes to giants.

I reckon by the time the giants arrived, the spirits from the west had already begin migrating east towards The Unapproachable East and the Hordelands, and they may have actively resisted other races and prevented them from entering these lands (Does anyone know where the term unapproachable east comes from).

It does seem strange that the giant kingdoms were confined to the great glacier when we know the Sarrukh ventured only as far as Thay (according to George Krashos) and the batrachi were centred around the inner sea and obliterated themselves. So i figure the giants were kept in their glacial boundaries by the dangerous fey and spirits of the eastern woods themselves

Fey do seem to change personality when threatened, going from a nice flighty fickle character to something dark and vengeful. Rashemen and the hordelands is still a dark and dangerous place because of the spirits. Its just supposition, but the loss of their lands in the west and their migration to the east might have made them more dangerous to humanoids (and giants).

However, there is nothing to say the giants couldnt have had an effect on the fey society later, when it was disappearing.

Your idea about lycnathropy was what i was alluding to by the spirit fey possessing animals which lead to fey and animal hybrids. This caused animal spirits to appear which in turn possessed the protohumans and caused animal and human hybrids. One possession of which may have ultimately resulted in the first lycanthropes.

I dont know why i tied it to the possessed being having children, but it just seemed to make sense that a human possessed by an animal that had a child would pass on some of the animal traits to his child.

Of course possessing the same creature for an extending period of time may also have similar effects and so that prolonged possession may be what resulted in lycanthropy.

Either way we need explanation as to why these spirits only exist in Rashemen and the hordelands now. And thats my basis for religion being the death of the spirit realms. Of course as a slight ironic twist it seemed fitting that the fey possession imparting intelligence to animals may have also had a similar effect on humans and other creator races and so the fey indirectly contributed to the demise of their own realm. Religion is generally opposed to spirit creatures which they view as being undead and so exorcism must work equally well on fey spirits and undead spirits - destroying it utterly. Sanctifying an area to a god exorcises the spirits and so gradually the spirits were pushed out of the west as religion took hold among the other creator races.

One further thought is why things persist in Rashemen now. Obviously the spirit creatures are not undead (they are fey) so they do not go to the outer planes, but over time they are absorbed back into the land (giving rise to places strongly linked to spirits and fey, which exist aplenty in Rashemen, and a few still remain in the rest of Faerun).

So i pictured that over time, the spirits that migrated to the east gradually merged with the land, giving it a collective sentience of sort and created a safehaven for what we call Telthors. Anything that dies in Rashemen (and possibly the Hordelands) can spontaneously arise as a Telthor because of this spirit infused land.

There are no big organised religions in Rashemen or the Hordelands, they are making inroads into these places but nothing dominates as yet so the spirit infused land has not yet been exorcised.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 14:45:06

Fey Society

Fey Society is based around the perfection of ideals. Elves are an example of one such fey race, they devote their entire lives in the pursuit of one goal, magic, warfare, art.

The elvish pursuit of perfection is a remnant of their time as a fey race. The fey pursue similar ideals to the exclusion of all else, focusing their efforts on magic, nature, peace, music, beauty, life, and of course the more unseelie fey focusing on the opposites, war, ugliness, death, sickness.

These ideals and more are pursued with a singleminded zeal and obsession unachievable to most humanoid, this continues for an unspecified period of time and then suddenly ceases and a new ideal is pursued.

For fey are nothing if not fickle, what was once the reason for a being's existence can suddenly become unmportant and abandoned on a whim.

Fey of the spirit realms do not construct dwellings or organised societies, or anything permanent. Instead they move in nomadic groups, bands of travellers pursuing a likeminded ideal as it moves through the primeval lands of Faerun. These fey tribes can contain any number of individuals from any number of races; for what you are means nothing to fey only what you do and that it is in pursuit of the same ideal as everyone else in the group.

These groups change allegiances and the roster of members alters on a daily basis as fey leave in pursuit of their next obsession and new members join. Old enemies can become steadfast friends on a weekly basis.

Morals and the trappings of civilisation mean nothing to the fey. If the group is devoted to warfare then there is nothing wrong with them honing their skills by butchering entire families of anything they encounter, and yet they may stop suddenly when they encounter a being that presents a new method of fighting they had not considered or sports a new weapon in his or her defence.

The only thing of importance to all fey, the one thing that they all have in common, is protecting Faerun, the life giving forest in which they dwell that spreads coast to coast.

Magic: Magic in ancient times was more dangerous than it was now, primarily because those using it so long ago were the first to use it, there was no research to build upon, no notes to consult, no fellow wizards to collaborate with. Even the most basic spells had to be created from scratch as very few beings would share the read magic or light spell that they had spent decades researching and may have lost several limbs or suffered many years in chicken form in pursuits of such knowledge.

Such dangers and restrictions also applied to divine casters as the gods themselves had not yet worked with their worshippers to create the spells commonly available today.

As such traditional methods of magic used today were very rare in such ancient times. The creator races began the first forays into spellcasting and an organisation known as the Ba'etith began collating and sharing the fruits of such research from all the varied creator races.

The fey themselves practiced a different method of performing magical feats. Fey would work ancient magic that involved the transference of power and abilities from one being to another. The lords of Faerie, distributed their power among their many loyal subjects allowing them to use abilities that they would otherwise be unable to achieve themselves.

The fey performed this pact and totem magic on the animals they encountered in Faerun to find out what strange and wonderful abilities they could learn from such creatures. In doing so they helped create the first Telthors, for when these creatures died there was a chance that they would become fey spirits.

They even attempted to transfer powers and abilities to the lesser humanoids, the reptilians, the amphibians, the aereeans, and the simians. In doing so they ignited the spark of intelligence that allowed these races to become the dominant forms of life on Toril for a time.

In time the fey also taught this magic to the other inhabitants of Toril and allowed themselves to be used as a source of power for what they hoped would be allies. The primitive humanoids and goblinoids in particular embraced this form of magic for a time and formed pacts with the powerful primordials that wandered the forests of Faerun.

These pacts resulted in permanent changes to some tribes of humanoids that may have created the quaggoths and lythari as they took on aspects of their primordial patron.

Edited by - Gary Dallison on 02 Jan 2014 10:00:40

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 15:00:29

Fey Races
The following are a list of fey creatures and their possible origins on Faerun.

Centaur: Created in Thay by the alteration magics of the Sarrukh who experimented in directly fusing horse Telthors with primitive protohumans. Not true fey but has fey origins.

Domovoi: Domovoi were created quite late in the history of the Spirit Realms. After fey fairy spirits had been possessing animals for many centuries resulting in a plethora of Telthors roaming the spirit realms; a number of these Telthors encountered the primitive protohumans dwelling in mountain caves.
Warmed by the fires and the scenes of family life these Telthors remained in the cave for longer and longer periods possessing the elder family members on occasion until finally they merged with the land centred on the cave.
When these elders died they would occasionlly produce their own Telthors that would possess other family members of their old family or whatever family had moved in to the cave. Children conceived during this possession became the first domovoi. The old man of the fairies.

Dryads: Dryads were born of the union of tree Telthors and humanoids by possession that resulted in green children with a natural affinity for the forests.

Grigs: Grigs were the result of fey spirits possessing cricket like insects for extended periods of time. When the fey spirits finally left their hosts, the crickets were more humanoid in shape than insect and had retained more than a little of the fey influence that possessed them.

Hags: The twisted offspring of Cegliune; sister of Titania and Karontor; brother of Grolantor, after he was cursed by Lanaxis and the other giant children of Annam for twisting the Verbeeg and Fomorian giant races. These proto-hags; the precursors of the various hag subraces dwelled primarily underground in the caves beneath the Riildath that would later be known as Narathmault.

Hybsil: Hybsil were created by the prolonged possession of deer by fey spirits which altered the deer into fey like forms.

Nixie: Nixie resemble the original fey creatures that ventured into Faerun from Faerie.

Nymphs: Nymphs were created by fey creatures devoted to the pursuit of beauty above all else. They found this beauty in pools and groves as they wandered Faerun. Upon finding one they would remanin until death and their spirits would merge with the land.
When the first humanoids discovered these places they were so awed by their serene beauty that they spent many hours there until they fell asleep. Those slumbering were changed by the spirits of the grove into Nymphs.

Satyr: Sired by the Satyr Archfey/Primordial in the Plane of Faerie and migrated to Toril through portals.

Uldra: Uldra were once like other fey creatures, the nixie, the pixie, and the sprite. They were among the first migrants to Toril far in its prehistory during the ice age (before -42,000 DR). These beings were changed by the icy condition, hardened and crystalised into the uldra form today. As the ice began to recede they were led by their ruler "The Winter Queen" to the lands beyond the spine of the world. There they ruled in contest with invading Aeree, giants, orcs, and later humans that encroached upon their territory and brought with them the hated fire and warmth that are anathema to Uldra.

Wemic: The first creation of the Sarrukh using alteration magics fusing lion Telthors of the Shaar with primitive protohumans in the area. Not true fey but has fey origins.

Edited by - Gary Dallison on 20 Dec 2013 09:43:22

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 16:19:39

So Centaur, should they be fey in origin or something else entirely.

I would like to think they are fey in origin. But the question is, why are they now humanoid (or monstrous humanoid, i cant remember which). What happened to them either during their creation or afterwards that made them different from everything else.

Could it be they were one of the last fey races to be born from horse Telthor and humans. Perhaps it was a forced possession due to experimentation by the Sarrukh (centaur being prevalent in Thay and Sarrukh had a presence in Thay - according to GK).

Perhaps this also explains Wemics which are present in the Shaar which is also near to Sarrukh territory.

Perhaps rather than forced possession the Sarrukh used magic to deliberately merge Telthor and human. It seems in keeping with their evil nature and mastery of magic. This merging kept the centaur and wemics in a barbaric state of civilisation - torn between their fey and human halves.

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11695 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 17:34:54

true, the giant races didn't come until the Dawn Ages, and you're talking before the Days of Thunder. However, that being said, I wonder if this "type" of environment didn't extend in the Eastern Realms even unto the dawn ages to a degree (just as they still exist in Rashemen). Of the cultures that existed in the Dawn Ages in the Unapproachable East, we have little documentation. The main giant one we see is Helligheim (a Fire Giant kingdom, but I'm betting it included other giants), which included at least Ironfang Keep. Presumably, these giants worshipped deities (at least Annam, but more likely the other gods as well), so they would have brought religion into the region before the dark elves by over a dozen millennia. I also picture troll and ogres in the area in the dawn ages. However, yes, none of this is during the time before the Days of Thunder, but just pointing out that nothing says that the Eastern Realms had necessarily changed drastically even into the Dawn Ages as regards the Spirit Realms.... and the point that gods do start coming in, they seem to all be brutes, and probably didn't "catch on".

I do like the idea that religions sanctifying the land caused changes. However, be careful with it. It has to be something heavier. Otherwise, people could move into Rashemen casting ritual sanctifying spells and destroying its link to the feywild (granted, the spirits would turn on said person, but....).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11695 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 19:23:26

Just a note, found the reference to Grolantor getting it on with Cegilune. Monster Mythology, page 73. Ironically, reading it brought up some other questions.

First, Grolantor mated with some kind of two headed serpent, other serpent beings, and "a medusa-like hag" plus Cegilune. So, I'm kind of wondering, who was the medusa-like hag? Possibly one of the first yuan-ti? What about all these serpents??? Sarrukh??

Next, on the same page, is a reference to Grolantor's brother, Karontor, who is the god of the Fomorians and Verbeeg. It also references that he learned of dark magical secrets from an ancient subterannean race of hags, and he uses this dark magic to twist other giants into Fomorians and Verbeeg..... damn, sounds like some hags from Dun-Tharos we were discussing? Ironically, this deity is found in monster mythology, but not in giantcraft. Possibly he is dead on Toril? Maybe he never made the transition? Maybe he is stuck in the feywild?

Sorry for the sidestep, but my mind was there, so I figured I'd put my thoughts to paper.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11695 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 19:26:05

You know, thinking about Karontor made me wonder.... does Dun-Tharos have a portion of it that crosses the planar boundaries to the feywild, maybe in its underdark, in a section possibly still filled with hags, fomorians, and verbeeg?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 19:38:37

Hmm, opening my books for Grolantor now.

As for the religion and exorcism thing, I think its fine even if it means Rashemen can also be erased. The removal of spirits from the west took millennia, it was a slow process, and even now it isn't complete, there are always going to be fey around in isolated areas.

The east ended up with refugees from the west as well as its own fey, admittedly we theorise many of them end up dead but that's still a lot of spirits to concentrate into Rashemen. And the thing about exorcism having used it in a campaign encounter is that you are open to attack by whatever spirits you are trying to exorcise. Any priest trying that in Rashemen is going to be killed very quickly.

Now onto the giants and the hags, by the way do we have an origin for the hags as they strike me as fey creatures (admittedly evil fey but still fey)

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2013 : 20:14:47

I think the thing with the giant kingdoms, the type of giant probably refers only to the rulers of that kingdom. If Annam left a kingdom to each of its sons it is as you say unlikely that kingdom contained only giants of its kind given the great variation in environments within that kingdom.

Instead more likely that giant ruler which would be directly related to a son of Annam, ruled over any giants within his territory.

As for Grolantor and Cegilune, I like the idea. I haven't figured out what I want to do with the giant deities yet, but if Grolantor was a god he wouldn't be able to wander around on Toril unless he was a demigod and bound to Toril. However if you ignore the names of the gods and Annams first terrestrial children and just assume they were one and the same then Grolantor being the first hill giant then he was a primordial of considerable power.

He was also probably given a kingdom by Annam which he likely squandered and lost and was then exiled and forced to wander the Unapproachable lands south of Ostoria (the Unapproachable East). There he could have found the hag Cegilune and her children in the underdark below the Riildath.
He might even have wandered as far as Thay and encountered sarrukh and their experiments.
And there is no reason that he couldn't have had a twin that was ignored because he was born second and hideously deformed.

And before anyone jumps on the shoot me wagon for violating giant pantheon canon, its such a mess anyway its worth ignoring the canon and merging the FR and core information. So grolantor is ruk, obadai is skoraeus, ottar is thrym, masud is surtr etc. Then we can add in a few more of annams children and tie in the core mythology to FR events.

After all there is no reason why the primordial children of Annam couldn't ascend to godhood after they founded their own mortal giant subraces.

But this isn't the giant discussion thread, this is the spirit realms thread.

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11695 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 04:18:44

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

So Centaur, should they be fey in origin or something else entirely.

I would like to think they are fey in origin. But the question is, why are they now humanoid (or monstrous humanoid, i cant remember which). What happened to them either during their creation or afterwards that made them different from everything else.

Could it be they were one of the last fey races to be born from horse Telthor and humans. Perhaps it was a forced possession due to experimentation by the Sarrukh (centaur being prevalent in Thay and Sarrukh had a presence in Thay - according to GK).

Perhaps this also explains Wemics which are present in the Shaar which is also near to Sarrukh territory.

Perhaps rather than forced possession the Sarrukh used magic to deliberately merge Telthor and human. It seems in keeping with their evil nature and mastery of magic. This merging kept the centaur and wemics in a barbaric state of civilisation - torn between their fey and human halves.

Personally, I don't want the Sarrukh knowing anything of "Spirit Magic". Leave this to the fey. The Sarrukh can do perfectly well with transmutation effects that affect the physical body.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11695 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 04:24:09

On the hags and fey thing. Cegilune is believed to be a dark sister of Titania, Queen of the Seelie Court. She isn't the Queen of Air & Darkness though. Since Cegilune is the goddess of hags, then I'm definitely counting hags as "from the feywild" even if they're creature type isn't "fey".

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 09:10:33

History of the Spirit Realms
The history of the fey on Toril begins far back in history before the creator races first crawled out of caves in the land and sea.
Back then Faerun was a much larger landmass than it is now and was covered in forest from coast to coast however the elves in their folly ripped apart Faerun to create Evermeet, a spell that stretched back and forth in time so that before the fey realms were even created they were much diminished in the west of Faerun by close links with Faerie and the Seelie Court that never existed.

The fey frolicked in these forests exulting in its beauty and its connection to their homeland of Faerie.

-42,000 DR: The ice melts enough to uncover green land and forests quickly begin to emerge. The fey take to wandering much more frequently in Toril possessing the primitive humanoids which over time sparks intelligence in these creature.
- The Seelie Court (ruled by Titania) set up a winter palace in the Hordelands Basin which is now a vast wetlands paradise. The planar boundary between Faerie and Faerun is thinnest here; allowing one to walk from one plane to the next seamlessly without even realising a planar transition had occurred.
- The Le Shay migrate to Toril from Faerie to a land in what is now the Trackless Sea. (This land is sunk when the elves create Evermeet, only a few Le Shay on the Moonshae Isles survive that catastrophe which we know about from GHoTR).

The Days of Thunder
By this point in time the fey had inhabited Toril for nearly 10,000 years and were spread far and wide across the surface of Faerun and even in its oceans. Their influences and magical practices had created Telthors; fey spirits, that had infused all the lands of Faerun, and they also ignited the spark of sentience in the creator races that would soon become the dominant forms of life on the planet.

This sentience and belief also created the first gods, elevating powerful primordials to godhood or creating new gods out of simple ideas and conceptions about life and the afterlife.

These gods in turn charged their followers with creating places of worship on Faerun to spread their faith. This sparked the beginning of the end of the fey realms in Faerun.

These places of worship required consecrated ground, an area designated as holy to that divine being. Such an act of consecration removed the Telthor spirits that had now inhabited the land for many millenia, destroying them utterly. The spirits fought back against their destroyers but the Sarrukh, Batrachi, and Aeree were determined and had learned powerful arcane and divine magic to aid them.

Slowly the spirits infusing the land of western Faerun were depleted and destroyed and the links between Faerie and Faerun weakened in these places. The fey and Telthors began migrating east; inland, where the creator races had not yet reached.

When the Tearfall occured it severed the close links between Faerie and Faerun, shifting the planes further apart. This event also annihilated the Inner Seas and those fey that were migrated gradually east resolved to go even further to the lands of the unapproachable east and last bastion of the Spirit Realms in Faerun.

-35,000 DR: The Sarrukh establish Okoth in Mulhorand. They quickly begin experimenting on other races to produce perfect slave creatures. One line of experimentation involves merging Telthors with humanoids. In the Shaar region this experiment results in the Wemic race being created.

-34,500 DR: Sarrukh from Okoth are established in Thay by this time and begin eyeing the Greater Riildath forest for expansion. Unable to stand the cold climate of the area and therefore unable to field an army to combat the fey defenders of the forest the Sarrukh begin to drain the Lake of Mists in the Hordelands basin, legends hold they drained the lake into the Underdark using portals.
- Sarrukh also continue their experiments with merging Telthor and humanoid and create the centaur race.
- Sarrukh establish a network of caverns beneath the Greater Riildath, one entry point to the network is located in Narathmault where they abduct fey and Telthor for their experiments (to detract attention from themselves far in the south). They kidnap fey creatures and carry them underground where they are dissected, mutated and merged in the name of magical discovery.

-34,100 DR: The Okoth empire of Sarrukh ends, a few isolated outposts are left including a sizable group of several hundred Sarrukh located beneath the Greater Riildath forest that are continuing their experiments on the fey.

-34,000 DR: The fey realms in the West of Faerun are all but extinguished by this time thanks to the encroachment of the creator races in all lands between the Sword Coast and the Inner Seas (Sea of Fallen Stars today). Small pockets remain in isolated areas. Most fey begin migrating across the Inner Seas to the Spirit Realms in the East.
- Chupoclops had spent a millennia stalking and devouring the people of Faerie and Faerun. The Seelie Court set Fenmarel Mestarine to track this fell creature so that they might end this menace. With the help of a being named Araushnee, Fenmarel finally locates Chupoclops' scent entering a cavern network in the Narathmault in the Greater Riildath forest.
There Fenmarel and Araushnee discover the horrors of the Sarrukh and their experimentation on the fey. Alerting the protectors of the forest, the primordial guardians collapse large portions of the cavern network isolating the Sarrukh and Chupoclops from the surface.
- A session of the Seelie Court is held in the Hordelands basin where Titania herself ponders over what to do with Chupoclops and the evil Sarrukh. The Seelie Court decide on removing their threat form the face of the world forever and so the entire cavern network beneath the Riildath is shifted into another plane trapping the creatures within in the Ethereal Plane. Chupoclops spends the next few millennia feeding off the Sarrukh spirits and their experiments.
- For her aid in tracking Chupoclops, Araushnee earns the respect and desire of Corellon Larethian, leader of the Seldarine tribe. The results of their union are the Lythar and Ilythar clans of wild elves.

-31,000 DR: Tearfall occurs. Ao shifts Abeir and Toril apart to save the planet from destruction in the war between batrachi and primordial. In doing so Ao shifts Faerie further away from Toril, creatures can no longer merely walk between the two planes in places where the veil between the two worlds is thin. From this moment on Portals are required for transport between the two planes.
- The impact of the meteor also shifts the planetary alignment and sends up vast clouds of dust. For the next millennia temperatures around Toril drop considerably which slow the amount of melt water entering the Hordelands basin which accelerates the rate at which that vast wetlands is drying out.
- The destruction of large tracts of land and forest around the coast of modern day Aglarond cause pain that threatens to shatter the mind of Relkath of the Branches, protector and manifestation of the Greater Riildath forest

-30,000 DR: Araushnee is banished to the Abyss for attacking the Seldarine. She becomes the demon queen Lolth.
- Annam sires his giant primordial children with Othea and founds Ostoria in their honour.
- Fenmarel Mestarine retreats to Faerun through a portal ashamed of his relationship with Araushnee/Lolth and her betrayal of the Seldarine.

-28,000 DR: Ostoria reaches it's height stretching from the present day Cold Lands to the Vilhon Reach, although no giant dares enter the Greater Riildath forest.

c. �27000 DR: Continuing their work to undermine dragon rule, the Fey open new gates allowing the first elves to immigrate to Toril. These primitive green elves worship the Faerie gods (not the Seldarine, which were unknown at this time). Although most green elves are content to remain in small scattered tribes, one group known as the Ilythiiri negotiates with the dragons and begins to
carve out a small kingdom in the south. The great Ilythiiri capital at Atorrnash remains a shining beacon of elf culture for millennia.
- The Lythar clan of wild elves enter a portal in the Shaar and appear in the Unapproachable East in the Greater Riildath forest.
- Cegliune enters Toril through a portal from Faerie, desperate to escape the shadow of Titania. Arriving in the Unapproachable east she sets out to destroy all that the fey have created on Toril. Cegliune begins searching for disaffected fey and evil creatures of all races.

-26,000 DR: The thousand year war between dragons and the giants of Ostoria begins.
- Cegliune encounters the Narathmault and the entrance to the collapsed Sarrukh caverns beneath the Greater Riildath. She encounters the ethereal spirit of Chupoclops and the two evils enter into a pact of mutual aid.

-25,999 DR: The hill giant son of Annam loses his subkingdom of Ostoria to the flight of Red dragons in the early stages of the war. For his incompetence and stupidity he is exiled from Ostoria and forced to wander Toril. His radiant (non identical) twin brother chooses to accompany him and the outcast hill giants in the hope that he will be able to save his brother from his stupidity and anger.
- The hill giant son of Annam and his twin brother, and the hill giants flee south into the Riildath forest. There they encounter Cegliune and the desperate primordial giant brothers and Cegliune aid each other in their endeavours. They pollute the hill giant race by mating with Cegliune. The unknown radiant brother works with Cegliune's dark magic abilities to curse the Fomorian and Verbeeg giant kin into their current twisted forms in the hopes of currying favour with the sons of Annam. Instead he himself is cursed by his giant brothers so that his appearance matches his twisted heart and his name is stricken from all written records of the giant realms.
- Hags begin to appear in the Greater Riildath forest. The first and most powerful of Cegliune's hag children are fully grown twin girls that quickly take to the arcane arts and soon their abilities begin to rival their mother.

-25,900 DR: After 99 years of magical experimentation Cegliune and her twin daughters create the first Night Twist trees using the blood of Chupoclops. The trees are planted in the Riildath forest and begin slaying any being that slumbers nearby with twisted nightmares of their worst fears given form.

-25,400 DR: Fey numbers in the lands around modern day The Great Dale begin to dwindle as larger numbers of Night Twists are planted in the forests above. The lesser fey turn to the primordial protectors of the forest for aid but even these great creatures are at a loss as to the source of the deaths.
- A conclave is called by all the "lords" of the spirit realms. During the meeting a twisted and evil hag announces herself as the daughter of Cegliune. Concerned that her mother is wary of her growing power she escaped to warn the fey of what Cegliune has done in return for their protection. Secretly this daughter had made a pact with an infernal being of immense power to provide her with power enough to surpass and survive her mother. In return she was to stop the reduction in soul traffic of humanoids in the Riildath (what would normally pass to the outer planes instead is being eaten by Chupoclops).
- The primordials and their subjects and the hag princess and her hag rebels march to Narathmault and the Riildath. Casualties are high among the fey and the humanoids as those that sleep are quickly slain.

-25,399 DR: The Battle of the Narathmault: The forces of Bheuristay and the spirit realms engage in the caverns beneath Narathmault. The seven primordials that make it to the central chamber die battling Chupoclops who they kill with the last stroke. Cegliune flees leaving her children to disperse after the battle is lost. The Hag Princess leaves for the outer planes with a number of her followers.
- Fenmarel Mestarine rewards those of clan Lythar by altering their essence enough to distinguish them from the rest of Araushnee's children, erasing the taint of Lolth from within. From that day forward the lythari are able to take the form of wolves and spread east and west across Faerun.
- Magnar the Bear similarly rewards his humanoid followers for their dedication by fusing them with the spirit of the bear. These bear like people initially choose to defend the caverns beneath Narathmault but soon spread to other lands through the Underdark.
- The death of Relkath of the Branches splits his form into several beings each representing an individual portion of the Greater Riildath wood, because of this separation he is now known as Relkath of the infinite branches. Only Relkath of Aglarond and the Woodman of Rashemen survived into the modern era.

-25,000 DR: The elves create the Dracorage Mythal. This sends all dragons on Toril into a cycle wherein all dragonkind is sent mad and forced to destroy that which it has spent so long creating.
This event end the Thousand Year War between giant and dragonkind as the dragons turn on each other. Several dragons ignite large portions of the Greater Riildath forest centred on the lands of Ashanath.
Once the madness subsides several dragon overlords setup kingdoms in the mountain ranges of the Unapproachable East. They force the humans and goblinoid races to serve them as loyal subjects and soldiers. Overtime, the goblins are infused with dragon blood and mixed with other creatures to create the hobgoblin race.
With the telthors and fey around Narathmault already greatly depleted by the actions of Chupoclops and Cegliune, most of the fey opt to leave what is now the Riildath forest and migrated to the lands around Aglarond, Rashemen, and the Hordelands.

�10400 DR: Dark elves of Clan Sethomiir travel by magic to the Riildath (present-day Rawlinswood and Forest of Lethyr) from Ilythiir, guided by the hand of the balor Wendonai. They construct an underground fortress named Narathmault [�10000], �the Dark Pit,� at the site of present day Dun-Tharos, recognizing it as a place of great evil.

Edited by - Gary Dallison on 02 Jan 2014 10:41:25

Gary Dallison
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Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 09:18:53

Just a few events on a timeline to indicate what happens with the spirit realms.

I think the Sarrukh experimenting on fey works fine, there is no mention of them learning spirit magic, they are simply using their transmutation magics to directly fuse an incorporeal creature to a humanoid. I dont think there is any reason why transmutation magic cannot affect incorporeal creatures, especially if they manifest on the material plane first.

The Ba'etith probably did study the magic of the fey, but they are an organisation separate from the creator races and so may not and probably didnt share their teachings with the empires that existed at the time.

Now back to the timeline, i need to figure out what events go where regarding Chupoclops, he is definitely too good not to include in the realms and the fact that he is mentioned alongside Dendar the Night Serpent and other FR specific elder evils means that he should be included in the history of FR somewhere.

I wont go into details on how Chupoclops dies because we havent reached an agreement on what happens (and i need to get hold of the sourcebook that details him so i can read about his backstory first.

Who knew Monster Mythology was such an awesome book. It has screwed up my theory for Satyrs though as there is a god of satyrs detailed in monster mythology for sylvan deities, and since i believe all the dey deities are actually akin to primordials, that means he must have created the satyr race.

Also need to weave the primordials into the history somehow. I am thinking that they were probably among the first beings sought out and possessed by the fey and imparted intelligence to creatures like Magnar the Bear which forged a lasting alliance between the spirit realms and the primordials in the Greater Riildath. As for primordials in the west, they were slowly killed off by the creator races culminating in the war with the batrachi and the formation of the sea of fallen stars so that explains their absence in the western lands.

Gary Dallison
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Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 10:18:43

Okay, so i think now that i have Chupoclops in the Riildath, i would to insert hags somewhere.

Now i like the idea of Cegilune, i think she was probably the first hag and most likely a primordial (since she is now a deity) and therefore creator of the hag race.

This idea ties in nicely to Grolantor and the degeneration of the hill giant race. Grolantor (the primordial hill giant progenitor also known as Ruk) wandered in the Greater Riildath as part of his exile and encountered Cegilune and sired children with her. He then went further south with his kids and encoutered powerful sarrukh creations and sired more kids to further pollute his kids.

Cegilune however remained in the area and produced the hag race. Now i'm thinking that maybe she sired a hag subrace race with Chupoclops, and a few other subraces with some other primordials nearby (willingly or not since hags are quite unscrupulous and indeed dangerous when it comes to procreation). She might even have had a dalliance with Karolantor to produce Fomorians.

These hags and Cegilune may have been responsible for the creation of the Night Twists (with input from demonic patrons) which Chupoclops then used to great effect to produce more ethereal spirits that he could then consume.

But the point is that with the creation of these hag children comes a change in the spirit realms. It becomes separated between East Riildath (which is Rashemen and Ashanath and the Hordelands) that remain fey. And the West Riildath that turns to evil and begins exterminating the fey and spirit creatures.

Now the primitive goblin and human tribes that inhabit the area would have been on either side, but the Lythar wild elves would be firmly in the east.

Gary Dallison
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Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 10:23:19

Oh and last thought this morning. What if the deep bears werent human in origin, but were actually goblin. There sub intelligence, preference for underground, and snarling language are more goblinesque than human.

I'm thinking that the lythari and quaggoths are created by the same means. So in fighting chupoclops the lythari are rewarded by a wolf primordial they serve by him merging his essence with theirs. Magnar the bear does a similar thing with his goblin followers (after all goblins obey strength first and foremost).

Obviously the elves are more intelligent and better able to control their gift, the goblins are dominated by it.

Gary Dallison
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Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 11:11:27

Primordials

Just a list of possible primordials that ventured beneath the boughs of the Greater Riildath in times gone by during the era of the Spirit Realms.

Relkath of the Infinite Branches: Possibly a treant and by modern times a "deity" of the Yuirwood.

Magnar the Bear: A bear and later "deity" of the Yuirwood.

Zandilar the Dancer: Unknown creature with blue skin????, later "deity" of the Yuirwood.

The Wood Man: Possibly a treant and legendary embodiment of the power that is said to defend the woods of Rashemen.

Hornclaw the Grey: Unlikely primordial, an owlbear said to be taller than most giants and over 100 years old according to Rashemi legend.

Dar Guran: Unlikely primordial, a fell troll able to take a man's head off with one bite.

Stormwind: Unlikely primordial, an exceptionally large advanced treant.

Bristlebeard: Unlikely primordial, an intelligent boar that can speak and guides lost travellers.

Elikarashae: not a primordial, an elven hero that fought the "enemies of the Yuir" and ascended to godhood - probably a demipower.

The Simbul: Unknown, maybe an actual bull but unlikely given the Simbuls choice of it as her name.

Ashane: A great water spirit that rules all the fey of Lake Ashane, its name is unknown to all except the witches (i just called it Ashane because of the name of the lake

Cegilune: Primordial of Faerie/Archfey. Possibly an older sister of Titania (born twinless which is a bad omen among fey). Felt aggrieved at her younger sister ruling Faerie and so fled that plane at the first opportunity through a portal to Toril. Once there she cavorted with many primordial beings giving rise to various races of hag children and polluting the hill giant race with the dim witted Grolantor.

The Stag King: Primordial/Archfey from Faerie resembling a humanoid stag with massive antlers. In modern times he rules over the Ashenwood in Rashemen.

Fenmarel Mestarine: Primordial/Archfey from Faerie. Referred to as the lone wolf. In ancient times he resembled a wolf of enormous and feral proportions, historically allied with the Seldarine lords of Faerie, he typically companioned the great archer Solonor Thelandira whom he treated as a pack brother. Tempted by Araushnee before the war with the Seldarine he fled Faerie for Toril upon her exile. He took to wandering the Greater Riildath forest in the Unapproachable East.

Grolantor/Ruk: Progenitor of the hill giant race and offspring of Annam and Othea. A dimwitted and stupid braggard always using brute force instead of his wits. He was first to lose his subkingdom of Ostoria and was exiled from the Colossal Kingdom for his stupidity. He was at all times accompanied by his younger and more intelligent brother; the radiant Karontor, who always tried to look out for his misguided sibling.
During exile, Grolantor and his hill giant progeny wander into the Spirit Realms of the Greater Riildath, there he encounters Cegliune and pollutes his hill giant children in a misguided attempt to strengthen his race and increase their power.
After his brief dalliance with Cegliune he heads south towards Thay where he encounters the Sarrukh and again pollutes the hill giant race with serpent blood by taking part in Sarrukh experiments.

Karontor: The radiant and outwardly noble sibling of Grolantor, secretly however he burned with hatred and jealousy of Lanaxis the favoured titan child of Annam. One of the offspring of Annam and Othea, Karontor chose to help his brother in all his endeavours, but was frequently ignored by the foolish Grolantor. Choosing exile with Grolantor to help guide his sibling they wandered the Greater Riildath together and encountered Cegliune.
Seeing a chance to end their exile by punishing the hated bastard giant kin children of Ulutiu and Othea, he entered into a dark pact with Cegliune and helped her sire a race of hag offspring.
In return Cegliune cursed the Fomorian and Verbeeg race into their current degenerate and ignoble status.
Far from being rewarded by Lanaxis and the other giant primordials; Karontor was cursed for his deeds towards their half siblings. His form now twisted and ugly as his heart; Karontor fled into the lands below.

Edited by - Gary Dallison on 20 Dec 2013 09:55:25

Gray Richardson
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Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 13:51:00

I had speculated that the uldra would have flourished during the ice age(s) that preceded the Days of Thunder. They may have had vast empires back then, or territories at least. Although, they appear to be a culture in decline at the dawn of the Days of Thunder, retreating from the warmth. Their fortunes were tied to the ice, and as it melted, so to dissolved their eminence across the face of Faer�n.

I had written some about wars between the uldra sprites and the Aearee in the North in one of my Candlekeep articles. I imagine that they persisted for a time to hold power in the cold places, up in the north and around the glaciers. Surely there would have been some tension as the upstart races took power from reluctant uldra powers, still emboldened by memories of their mighty empires, long melted with the glories of their race.

Gary Dallison
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Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 14:06:04

Well i have to own up, i did deliberately pick the date of -42,000 DR according to a post you made on here Gray where you speculated the ice age was coming to an end by this time.

I hadnt thought about the uldra arriving earlier before the other fey, but it does make sense that they would be the first to explore the world given its earlier ice age.

I will have to read up your article and then make some changes to my ideas. I figure the uldra might make a bit of a come back during the time the great glacier expands south which it might do several times as it looks like glaciers were responsible for carving the Riildath into the Rawlinswood and Lethyr forests. This could have occured around the time of Ulutiu's death or much later and possibly be the reason for the elves of the forest of Lethyr working high magic to prevent the great glacier from expanding any more.

Markustay
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Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 14:25:23

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

On the hags and fey thing. Cegilune is believed to be a dark sister of Titania, Queen of the Seelie Court. She isn't the Queen of Air & Darkness though. Since Cegilune is the goddess of hags, then I'm definitely counting hags as "from the feywild" even if they're creature type isn't "fey".

As I mentioned in the other thread, I feel that Titania and Aurilana were/are twins (and that twins were the most common type of birth amongst Fey in the distant past... before the Sundering). Cegilune could be another sister - perhaps even an older one, and it could be she felt Auril (or Titania) 'took her stuff', as it were. Cegilune may have worked with whatever Dark power created the Black Diamond - I picture her either hiding it herself, and/or leading the dwarves to it (subconsciously or through some sort of trickery).

Have you guys ever read The Saga of Pliocene Exile? Some very good material in there well-worth stealing. I love how they spun the Seelie and Unseelie fey (the Unseelie fey were mutated/made ugly by radiation - they liked living near pockets of radioactive material in the earth). They were natural psionicists (something I use), and they were actually aliens who landed on earth in prehistoric times (which is easy for us to spin as outsiders). It was just a very well thought out series that worked fairy lore into scientific terms. I borrow a lot of stuff from there - for instance, the Fey ability to change size and form is because they were Psychomorphs (psionic ability to alter their body - in D&D, psychometabolism). In the series, various 'fey' had different strengths in various psionic abilities, which easily explains all the different forms of fey. like I said, it was a really nice take on the whole thing.

I also use a dash of Mists of Avalon - I like how MZB made the 'magic' very realistic (almost a form of mentalism - people saw what you wanted them to see). Anyhow, her take was that various 'realms' drift away from reality after a time, when folks stop believing in them. I really like that take, and it fits FR (and D&D) very well - as a world looses its sense of wonder, 'magical' creatures retreat into these demi-planes (and some are much further away then others you have to travel through one realm to reach another).

Anyhow, all of that is applicable to a D&D/FR model of the universe (cosmology), feywild, Shadowfel, and other transient planes. Its 'malleable', in that it can be changed by mortal belief (which isn't really the case at all - all of these 'places' are right next to us, all the time, but how we are able to 'see' {interact} with them varies with the individual, dependent upon their personal beliefs, and by the beliefs of the surrounding culture). Thus, The Great Wheel is only 'correct' in that more people believe it to be 'the truth' then any other version (thus giving it more substantiality). Ergo, all of these other planes (dimensions, demi-planes, etc) are really all overlapping in no particular order - cosmologies themselves are constructs of mortal minds. All versions are true at once. If a group believes in one, unified 'spiritworld', rather then separate planes (Feywild, Shadoworld, the Ethereal, etc), then thats just how it is (for them). Since fey know 'the truth' (or a closer version of it), they can simply walk between the worlds - at least, the greater fey can. They are not restricted by the artificial boundaries mortals set before themselves.

Not sure if any of that helps.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 19 Dec 2013 14:26:43

Gary Dallison
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Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 14:29:22

There we go, changed the uldra one to match up with your lore Gray which makes more sense than mine.

I dont really see fey as forming empires in the traditional sense, certainly not fighting over territory and resources. I would prefer that they were much more alien in nature (not far realm alien, just different alien) given that they are from another plane. So i just made the uldra have an extreme hatred of fire, its certainly reason enough for them to try and exterminate any individuals that bring it into their realm (anywhere the ice touches).

Of course i have no idea how exactly to portray uldra or other fey i've just made things up using bits from elves and a few other random pieces (king arthur the roleplaying wargame is one weird inspiration) so if anyone has any better idea it might help with the formation of an idea about their society and behaviour and personality etc which would then affect how the rest of their history develops.

Markustay
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Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 14:37:38

Getting back to my original point - before I was sidetracked by the recesses of my own mind...

If Cegliune was an older sister - and one born ALONE (considered a 'bad omen' amongst the Fey) - then she may have felt she was denied her rightful place as the Queen of the Fey.

Also, in 4e we got a newer name (Tiandra) for the fairy Queen. It was probably just a 4e thing (renaming stuff just to confuse the crap out of everyone), but maybe we can work with that? What if the rulers of the Fey rotated, much like the seasons? Could it be Titania's time was at hand, and she relinquished control to her daughter, Tiandra? Was it coincidence this coincided with the Spellplague? And what happened to Titania? Has she evolved into something else now?

I just looked through Heroes of the Feywild to find that name. Not a big fan of the Bard's tale: The First Elves thing. Fortunately, being written as "A Bard's tale", it counts as hearsay, and we can respin that just a bit, if we want.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Markustay
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Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 14:49:08

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

There we go, changed the uldra one to match up with your lore Gray which makes more sense than mine.

I dont really see fey as forming empires in the traditional sense, certainly not fighting over territory and resources. I would prefer that they were much more alien in nature... <snip>

Exactly my thoughts.

I think amongst Fey (and perhaps the other Creator Races), that it was more along the lines of 'tribes' with different sorts of emotional and/or elemental attachments. Thus, you could never have hard borders between fey, because they all overlapped. Their 'kingdoms' were wherever they happen to hold court.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Gary Dallison
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Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 14:53:32

Well someone did give me an idea involving the hag countess as well.

Something along the lines of Cegliune (or whatever her name is) was essentially disrupting the soul trade in Baator from Toril by working with Chupoclops to devour massive amounts of souls.

The hag countess may well have been Cegliune's sister, or probably just an underling that worked with Dispater i think (entering into a pact that cost her own soul but she eventually came to rule a layer) against Cegliune.

Since the Chupoclops story involved demons rigas well (Lolth being a demon) then its another layer of intrigue in there. Plus it then allows for the 3 heroes and 4 villains marching against chupoclops. One of the villains could be the hag countess (before she was the hag countess of course).

Anyways thats just an idea.

I'm trying to not venture too much from Toril and Faerun because things just get dirty and muddled with who is really who, and the story is so far back in history there is no need to even touch 4e lore. It's nice to know the idea i put in of Lolth having twin wild elf children (since dark elves looked just like wild elves before the descent) is a normal thing for fey, i was just making that up to tie lythar and ilythar together (ilythar then gets perverted to illythir over time).

The idea of Cegliune being an older sister of Titania is not bad, it does give her a reason to try and destroy what the fey have wrought in the Greater Riildath. She probably only discovered it late though, sometime after Chupoclops' exile i guess around the time the elves emigrate to Toril is not a bad date.

Gary Dallison
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Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 15:05:28

There we go Cegilune added as an archfey and sister of Titania from Faerie that fled when Titania became queen of Faerie.

Markustay
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Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 16:22:28

Just looked-up the Hag Countess. No way she could be the same being as Cegilune, eh?

Her name has been spelled Malagard, Malagarde, and Lamagard. The first two is easy to rectify - just different ways of spelling the same name (different spheres?). The 3rd is interesting, in that it might be closer to her original name - or perhaps she took-on the prefix 'Mal' after she took-over the 6th layer of Hell. The whole 'agarde' thing could be some sort of title in hell (or maybe more like an army rank).

Anyhow, just food for thought.

On another track, I think both 'devil' and 'demon' are just titles that refer to a being's affiliations, and has nothing at all to do with race (as Tanar'ri and Batezu do). Ergo its fairly easy for something to be both an archfey AND a devil (or demon).

Pure Homebrew:
I think all three girls were the children of Danu - a primal power of some magnitude. Danu then sacrificed herself to create a new home for the fey when Ladinion was corrupted. She literally used her lifeforce to sever the fey from 'the earth' of Toril, and create Faerie within the Feywild (which probably didn't have that name back then). Faerie itself is the physical body of the now semi-somnambulant goddess, just as all 'islands' in the Sea of Dreams (Feywild) are. Ravenloft works much the same way - the 'Dark powers' of the Domains of Dread are the final vestiges of some power(s) that rest in the Shadowfell.

And since I don't really differentiate between the two - the Feywild and Shadowfell - its all one and the same place. Like I said earlier, its really your own attitude and preconceptions that determines which you see yourself traveling through. Its all one, great big 'spirit world' beyond the veil of the Prime Material. Its almost as if the spirit world itself resides in your subconscious mind, and you determine at what 'depth' you swim through it all.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 19 Dec 2013 16:25:21

Gary Dallison
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Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 16:27:32

Well i wont name the hag countess but i think one of the villains from the chupoclops story will have to be a hag.

sleyvas
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Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 17:11:20

quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

I had speculated that the uldra would have flourished during the ice age(s) that preceded the Days of Thunder. They may have had vast empires back then, or territories at least. Although, they appear to be a culture in decline at the dawn of the Days of Thunder, retreating from the warmth. Their fortunes were tied to the ice, and as it melted, so to dissolved their eminence across the face of Faer�n.

I had written some about wars between the uldra sprites and the Aearee in the North in one of my Candlekeep articles. I imagine that they persisted for a time to hold power in the cold places, up in the north and around the glaciers. Surely there would have been some tension as the upstart races took power from reluctant uldra powers, still emboldened by memories of their mighty empires, long melted with the glories of their race.

Just a note, we would want to verify when the north was covered with ice (i.e. when Ulutiu caused the great glacier). I point this out, because the area called Helligheim (of which Ironfang Keep was an outpost) was noted as primarily a fire giant colony.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

sleyvas
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Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 17:43:49

One thing I just noted in looking up Ulutiu (sorry to keep going back to giants) is that Othea and Ulutiu birthed the verbeeg and fomorians (and firbolgs and voadkyn). Interestingly enough, Karontor (the giant god that I'd noted is missing in the realms who is in monster mythology) is said to have not BIRTHED verbeeg and fomorians but RATHER "Some myths from non-evil giants say that Karontor was once fair and radiant, but his jealousy of Stronmaus caused him to twist into a form as hideous as his heart. As the corruption grew, he descended into the underworld where he learned dark secrets from an ancient race of subterranean hags. On his return, he used this magic to twist some of the fairest mortal giants into fomorians and verbeegs as hideous and corrupt as he is."

So, just a thought... Othea and Ulutiu birthed firbolgs and voadkyn. Karontor twisted firbolgs and voadkyn (or possibly a beautiful version of fomorians and verbeeg) into the ugly fomorians and verbeeg using magic learned from an ancient race of subterannean hags? Then the fomorians who were in the feywild became very powerful magically (since 4e did make fomorians a powerful entity in the feywild).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

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