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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Dec 2013 : 16:39:53
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So far, I have seen a couple minor deities make stealth returns in novels, and the Weave is supposedly re-woven. But no real "fixes" or any background explanation has happened at all for repairing the damage to the Realms.
And I'm sorry, but Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle was absolutely awful and Murder in Baldur's Gate was incredibly mediocre. The lore and new detail in both is almost negligible and what is there is way below par. New maps? Nope. Updated NPCs with history? Nope. Ghosts is chock full of "yukyuk" and "harhar" jokey nonsense, and MiBG has a few nostalgic nods to the old videogame but is totally uninspired and boring on-the-rails design.
And nothing so far has been "edition neutral" in terms of utility. It's all tacked-on 4th edition.
What's the deal, seriously? FIX THE REALMS.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2013 : 16:50:40
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The Sundering is occurring right now in the novels and source material. Ghosts ,Murder and Legacy all occur during that time frame as do the novels The Companions and Godborn. Also, the Adversary releases this week. The sundering is currently happening in the lore and we probably won't get a good picture of what a post sundering realms looks like until after the sundering novels series is complete. Even then, we are still not likely to have a good picture from a RPG perspective until the campaign setting product comes up. Even then the depth of the late 1300s is not going to be created in a single sourcebook. It will take a lot of support and time to established that kind of detailed lore for the modern Realms.
Finally, I don't think many scribes consider Mask and Mystra "minor deities". |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2013 : 16:52:16
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That's what I keep saying... 5e is already here.
Maybe not the rules, but FR is already well down that road. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Dec 2013 04:03:58 |
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Alruane
Senior Scribe
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2013 : 16:55:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
The Sundering is occurring right now in the novels and source material. Ghosts ,Murder and Legacy all occur during that time frame as do the novels The Companions and Godborn. Also, the Adversary releases this week. The sundering is currently happening in the lore and we probably won't get a good picture of what a post sundering realms looks like until after the sundering novels series is complete. Even then, we are still not likely to have a good picture from a RPG perspective until the campaign setting product comes up. Even then the depth of the late 1300s is not going to be created in a single sourcebook. It will take a lot of support and time to established that kind of detailed lore for the modern Realms.
Finally, I don't think many scribes consider Mask and Mystra "minor deities".
Mystra was BEYOND important to magic and was by no means, minor. |
" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"
~Joneleth Irenicus
"Wisdom? My dear boy, wisdom is knowing that you do not know everything. Wisdom is realizing, a wise man ALWAYS has questions. Not answers."
~Alruane |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2013 : 16:58:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
The Sundering is occurring right now in the novels and source material. Ghosts ,Murder and Legacy all occur during that time frame as do the novels The Companions and Godborn. Also, the Adversary releases this week. The sundering is currently happening in the lore and we probably won't get a good picture of what a post sundering realms looks like until after the sundering novels series is complete. Even then, we are still not likely to have a good picture from a RPG perspective until the campaign setting product comes up. Even then the depth of the late 1300s is not going to be created in a single sourcebook. It will take a lot of support and time to established that kind of detailed lore for the modern Realms.
Finally, I don't think many scribes consider Mask and Mystra "minor deities".
I've read the first books in the series. No big Sundering yet. Will it happen in The Adversary? I'm beginning to doubt it.
So far there's been no explanation as to what happened to Mystra, nor why the Weave has come back. And spellscars are just randomly gone for no apparent reason?
And Mask, well, it's not really the same old Mask.
Everything I've seen and read so far is what I'd call "punting" and sweeping dust under the rug.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2013 : 17:58:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
That what I keep saying... 5e is already here.
Maybe not the rules, but FR is already well down that road.
I mean, yeah but that's a good thing right? |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2013 : 18:26:06
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quote:
Originally posted by EltheronAnd nothing so far has been "edition neutral" in terms of utility. It's all tacked-on 4th edition.
Yes, since the sundering is an event happening in the present (1480s aka the future for pre-4e-realms). It's edition neutral so far as that it's adventures can be played with different edition rules and it will set the "tone of the realms" back to it's pre-4e-vibes. It will not dial back the timeline or retroactively undo any 4e stuff, all 4e stuff that will be undone will be done so by future/present events
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
So far there's been no explanation as to what happened to Mystra, nor why the Weave has come back. And spellscars are just randomly gone for no apparent reason?
That happened in the last Elminster novel, in the The Companions they are just feeling the impact of that. Her return healed all spellscars (which I also think is kind of stupid and I hope that some endure and we just haven't seen them yet)
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
And Mask, well, it's not really the same old Mask.
Well, so far we haven't seen enoug of him to say that. Possible that over time Mask will obliterate what's left of Riven and become himself again.
Although it's questionable what "himself" would mean. The Mask in the Kemp novels is a 180° to the wimpering, whiney wimp we saw in the avatar novels (especially Crucible) |
Edited by - Mirtek on 01 Dec 2013 18:31:15 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2013 : 18:48:48
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the continuous death of mystra to explain ruleset changes was a joke.
no, the spellscars need to go, all they are were a form of spellfire without restraints.....
as for mystra, didn't they say how she survived in Elminster Enraged? |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2013 : 18:49:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
Yes, since the sundering is an event happening in the present (1480s aka the future for pre-4e-realms). It's edition neutral so far as that it's adventures can be played with different edition rules and it will set the "tone of the realms" back to it's pre-4e-vibes. It will not dial back the timeline or retroactively undo any 4e stuff, all 4e stuff that will be undone will be done so by future/present events
That's not what most people meant by edition-neutral, though. Rules don't really generate the "vibe" for the world itself. Gameplay, perhaps, but not the setting.
What people wanted with edition-neutral material was new or fleshed-out lore and adventures that could be plugged into any era.
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That happened in the last Elminster novel, in the The Companions they are just feeling the impact of that. Her return healed all spellscars (which I also think is kind of stupid and I hope that some endure and we just haven't seen them yet)
I'm aware that certain things are thought to be "back" but none of it has been given any explanation or context. These are just changes with a total absence of meaning. What does it mean that the Weave is back? Is the Weave fully back to what it was, or are parts still damaged, and what about the so-called shadow weave?
Why were spellscars cured? In the absence of meaning, changes are empty and devoid of reason or purpose.
Quite frankly, I do NOT want a 4E Realms that's been dusted off and given a few minor new knick-knacks. If that's what they're planning to give us, I'll be voting with my wallet all over again.
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Well, so far we haven't seen enoug of him to say that. Possible that over time Mask will obliterate what's left of Riven and become himself again.
The book made it quite clear that the original Mask was dead, gone forever, and that Riven took his place. Riven has access to some old memories, like clippings from a book, nothing more. This Mask is a replacement. (spoiler end)
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2013 : 19:21:50
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| I don't remember it being said anywhere that all spellscares being healed with Mystra's return. I certainly don't remember it from Elminster Enraged. Can someone provide a source? |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2013 : 19:52:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
I don't remember it being said anywhere that all spellscares being healed with Mystra's return. I certainly don't remember it from Elminster Enraged. Can someone provide a source?
It was not with Mystra's return, but with the return of the Weave.
Cattie-Brie (spoiler) loses her spellscars when the Weave randomly returns in The Companions and all of the Harpell-associated wizards who had spellscars lost theirs as well. There was no explanation given for either.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2013 : 20:14:07
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If they release good chuks of lore such as a sourcebook dealing with pre-Spellplague Realms, of course I will be delighted... in principle, because maybe the product will still suck. And while I really don't think they are going that far, even though they haven't completely discarded the possibility. I've also seen people going "oh, they're resurrecting X, Y, and Z, that's what they meant as edition neutral and going forward?". It doesn't matter if we have spellscars, it's just another weird kind of magic, it's not like the Realms has ever been picky with those. If they've categorically done away with all of them, I think that's a bad idea, but we still need to see about that. I don't particularly like them, but it doesn't break the Realms any. To sum up, I think going the "this product is bad, ergo they're doing it wrong" route is missing the point of the Sundering. The 4th ed FRCG was bad, yes, but even if it was brilliant, it wouldn't change the fact a 100-year timejump was a terrible idea for the Realms, for example.
Bad products, and products you don't like, will be there, period. Don't buy them. The point is, even if these products are telling the story of the Sundering, they're not setting the underlying tapestry. They can be mostly ignored, just like you can ignore Swords of the Iron Legion. What happens in the latest Drizzt novel, and that adventure, are important, to a degree, yes. But in the end, it doesn't set the tone for the Realms if Drizzt or any of RAS' characters is dead or alive, it doesn't matter if a few adventure modules mess with local things a bit while being terribly simplistic. Also, it should be pointed we're hearing the beginning of the story now, it's not that strange most things aren't explained yet.
What does matter, and we still have to wait and see, is that there will be material to detail the Realms to the level we're used to (I think Elminster's Forgotten Realms and Ed's Forging the Realms articles are doing a nice job), that they keep their promise of stopping telling the BIG stories that blow up everything (I rather doubt they can do this forever, what with people having "great new ideas" to boost sales, but hey... let's give them a chance), that they restore as much older material to usefulness as is possible while still making things interesting (bringing whole disappeared nations back and restoring some of the geography, for instance) and keep the stance they're saying they'll have on gods (I remember I've seen Wyatt say at least once in a video there will be no more dead gods, which doesn't mean they need to be back, but if an author wants one back, sweet, no problem... DMs could always do that, but it still feels nice to be supported by canon). And, in one short phrase, stop breaking the toys.
So, as far as I'm concerned, a few minor deities making subtle comebacks really fits what they promised to a tee, and it supersedes whatever else was in those materials that didn't really impact the Realms that much. Of course it's just a start. Really, I never liked RAS novels or adventure modules, if they started to appeal to me that'd just be a miracle, not a good approach to the Realms. And I'll take a consistent good approach over the miracle in this case. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 01 Dec 2013 20:21:48 |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2013 : 21:19:39
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N.B. - pretty much this entire post is a spoiler of one kind or another - read it at your peril!
Folks,
The intent (or so it seems) of the 5E material (especially the Sundering novels) is to put the Realms back into as close to 'where we left off at the end of 3.5E' status as possible. So far, that has meant:
1) The return of Mystra (1.0/2.0/some new combo 3.0) as the goddess of magic and the restoration of the Weave - which means a return to the way arcane spells (aka 'The Art') were cast/used/memorized/worked under the earlier editions.
2) The return of Mask (in whatever new incarnation one now chooses to see him) and the clear intention (and precedent) to restore varied other sundry 'lost' or 'dead' gods from as far back as before the Time of Troubles.
3) The undoing of varied magical effects, consequences, and features connected with the Spellplague - like spellscars.
4) The restoration of various beloved pre-Spellplague NPC characters from novels, sourcebooks, and the like through one or more deus ex machina methods ranging from the existence of Blueflame items (for Ed), to the work of varied gods (for Bob Salvatore), to the acts of their mortal descendants (for Paul Kemp) and so on.
5) The picking up of varied regional story/plot lines 'where they left off' as is the case with the Companions.
While not quite rolling us back to 1384 (or earlier) DR, those are all pretty major changes that go a very long way towards putting the 'Spellplague Era' and all its undesired junk in the trash bin of history. I, for one, am about as pleased with that as I can be short of just taking the 'Dallas' approach and saying 'What Spellplague?'
So, have a little patience - the lads (and ladies) are working away and will get us where we need to be (or at least fairly close) to recapture the spirit of the OGB days.
The final thing you have to keep in mind about 'The Sundering' novels is this...sure they were written to unwind the Spellplague, but all but the last (Ed's) are also continuations of earlier tales first and foremost. So, they have 'Sundering events' as background, but focus on other story elements (with Paul Kemp's book less than the others I think - it is pretty world event heavy as well). I suspect Ed's novel (as he has said at panel after panel...) will give us 'what was going on worldwide?' junkies the overview details fix we are craving.
I'd advise you hold your fire until GenCon 2014 - by then all will be revealed about the transition and you'll be able to fairly judge it as success or failure. That is my $0.02 anyway. |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2013 : 22:03:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
That's not what most people meant by edition-neutral, though. Rules don't really generate the "vibe" for the world itself.
The "vibe" is supposed to be restored once the Sundering has run it's course and all it's effects are into place.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
The book made it quite clear that the original Mask was dead, gone forever, and that Riven took his place. Riven has access to some old memories, like clippings from a book, nothing more. This Mask is a replacement. (spoiler end)
No, that was while he held only a third of the divinity formerly stored in Kesson Rel. Now that he has all parts united no one knows what that will do to him.
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
no, the spellscars need to go, all they are were a form of spellfire without restraints.....
The vast majority were only minor powers (if at all). |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2013 : 22:38:00
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Agreed, Kris. From my perspective, what they said they are going to do - and it's been supported by everything I've seen this last year - is what you described, and part of my post was trying to get at that. If they're going to succeed, and if they're not changing course in the middle of the way is still to be seen, but the least that can be said is that WotC has a plan and the plan makes sense.
And there is no way this whole thing can be done without some unpalatable stuff in the middle. The 4e transition was terrible, and any method of undoing its mistakes would cause some amount of justified backlash. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 00:37:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
I don't remember it being said anywhere that all spellscares being healed with Mystra's return. I certainly don't remember it from Elminster Enraged. Can someone provide a source?
It was not with Mystra's return, but with the return of the Weave.
Cattie-Brie (spoiler) loses her spellscars when the Weave randomly returns in The Companions and all of the Harpell-associated wizards who had spellscars lost theirs as well. There was no explanation given for either.
I'm assuming you are referring to the Companions? I don't remember anyone being "cured" of their spellscars when the Weave returns. I know Cattie-Brie never had one in the novel. She was resurrected into a new body in the beginning.
I'll have to double check that book though. One of the things that I love about eBooks is that they're easily searchable. |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 02:09:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
I don't remember it being said anywhere that all spellscares being healed with Mystra's return. I certainly don't remember it from Elminster Enraged. Can someone provide a source?
It was not with Mystra's return, but with the return of the Weave.
Cattie-Brie (spoiler) loses her spellscars when the Weave randomly returns in The Companions and all of the Harpell-associated wizards who had spellscars lost theirs as well. There was no explanation given for either.
I'm assuming you are referring to the Companions? I don't remember anyone being "cured" of their spellscars when the Weave returns. I know Cattie-Brie never had one in the novel. She was resurrected into a new body in the beginning.
I'll have to double check that book though. One of the things that I love about eBooks is that they're easily searchable.
They were "cured" of their spellscars.
Remember that Catti-Brie's new body had a scar with the symbol of Mystra on one arm and a scar with the symbol of Mielikki on the other (or at least I think it was on her arms). Her spellscars allowed her to use some "druid-like" abilities such as shapechanging into animals. When the weave was restored, her scars became more like tattoos I think, and she lost the ability to use those "druid-like" abilities.
And yeah, when that happened the Harpells with spellscars all got cured too.
I really really hope that this didn't "cure" everyone. It was a needless change that just messes up a lot of characters.
And personally, I never thought that the Realms were broken and needed fixing. The biggest problem with the 4E transition was never the spellplague and everything associated with it, but the 100 year time jump. Still need to see how everything turns out, but I admit that I don't like some of the changes they're doing. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
Edited by - Tanthalas on 02 Dec 2013 02:10:28 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 04:07:20
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There's no reason to gt rid of Spellscars, or nearly anything else 4e brought with it. Why "throw the baby out with the bath-water"?
You don't like something, just ignore it. No need to to apply 'subtractive design' to the setting - let people have choices.
Except for the cosmology... we need a miracle worker to fix everything that got broken there.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 04:23:06
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quote:
And personally, I never thought that the Realms were broken and needed fixing. The biggest problem with the 4E transition was never the spellplague and everything associated with it, but the 100 year time jump. Still need to see how everything turns out, but I admit that I don't like some of the changes they're doing.
I disagree with part of this. The timejump was a bad move, but so was nuking so many of the setting's unique cultures. Killing off the pantheon was also a mistake.
quote:
There's no reason to gt rid of Spellscars, or nearly anything else 4e brought with it. Why "throw the baby out with the bath-water"?
You don't like something, just ignore it. No need to to apply 'subtractive design' to the setting - let people have choices.
Except for the cosmology... we need a miracle worker to fix everything that got broken there.
+11111 here. Spellscars are interesting and there's no need to retroactively 'cure' them. But those who have an interest in them can always keep them.
I'm still a bit doubtful about how Wizbro is going to provide support for all eras of play. Thing is, each 'era' is defined by each edition of the game...one can't support a given era without taking the ruleset used at the time. Will Wizbro publish massive rule books to cover each edition of the game? Will they publish multiple rulebooks to cover each edition? |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2013 : 20:50:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
And nothing so far has been "edition neutral" in terms of utility. It's all tacked-on 4th edition.
"Edition neutral" refers to the rules being used, not the "era of play."
"Edition neutral" means they're going to release products that are void of actual rules and release the rules in PDFs on wizards.com You can play Murder in Builder's Gate using 3e rule if you want.
However, product for people that don't want to play in post-spellplague Realms, we'll see.
Some point to Menzoberrazan as the example of supporting all eras of play, I however find it laughable since the book doesn't do specifics very well and all around era-lite. I don't expect any D&D Next supplement for the Realms that will be at my table when I'm playing 1360/1370s era games. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
Edited by - SirUrza on 03 Dec 2013 20:51:20 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2013 : 01:46:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There's no reason to gt rid of Spellscars, or nearly anything else 4e brought with it. Why "throw the baby out with the bath-water"?
You don't like something, just ignore it. No need to to apply 'subtractive design' to the setting - let people have choices.
Except for the cosmology... we need a miracle worker to fix everything that got broken there.
Without an actual retcon of 4e and its forced inclusion of core 4e PoL material, the cosmology is irrevocably broken. It ignored pre-existing continuity and unless we can either ignore that material as ever having happened, or collectively gloss over it while moving back towards the Great Wheel or the might-as-well-be-the-Great-Wheel from 3e, it's horrid mess.
I have ideas of how it could be done retaining some semblance of continuity, but the best and easiest way to do so would be to completely retcon the entirety of 4e material or treat it as a separate timeline. However that doesn't appear to be going to happen, and sadly with the dissonance between 4e and the Realms prior to that point, and how 5e thus far seems to be heading with regards to FR, I suspect that the setting is going to both make fans of the 4e material unhappy and fail to regain the massive number of fans it lost because of 4e.
I could be proven wrong and I hope I might, but I'm shocked that a simple 'this didn't happen and we are sorry' sort of rollback didn't happen given the damage the IP took in the past few years. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2013 : 06:26:32
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Because retcon is a dirty word AND because you can ignore any thing you want in your own campaign. I honestly don't ever understand why the game players get upset over the story or even the lore. You can always change it. It's those of us who only follow the story who should really be miffed about the 4E changes because we have no say in what happens.
I for one don't care. I enjoyed the 4E novels after the shock of the change. As long as the writing is good I'll read it. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2013 : 07:36:33
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If 5E does well in terms of sales of the Core Rulebooks, then the Realms will do, at the minimum, reasonably well.
If 5E does well in terms of sales of the Core Rulebooks and if WotC are smart enough to include 5E rules in whatever initial book or books or boxed set that the post-Sundering Realms are to be introduced with, then the Realms will do extremely well.
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There are people--many of them--who play the D&D game in the Realms and also care about and enjoy the story too.
It's not as though game players are automatically disconnected from the lore and the story by some as yet undisclosed magical power wielded by WotC.
You can do both, and people have been doing so for over 25 years.
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I think the main reason there was no reboot is that it would mean un-writing Realmslore. And not just 4E/Spellplague Realmslore but information that can prior to that. Resetting to, say, 1357 DR means everything that came after that no longer counts.
The Realms progresses by moving forward. Once fantasy novel writers with experience writing in the Realms were given the task of fixing things, WotC--unwittingly or not--closed the door on the idea of a reboot.
I sure would've liked to have been a fly on the wall during the initial discussions out of which the Sundering concept was hatched. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 04 Dec 2013 08:11:16 |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2013 : 08:19:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
I could be proven wrong and I hope I might, but I'm shocked that a simple 'this didn't happen and we are sorry' sort of rollback didn't happen given the damage the IP took in the past few years.
WotC did put a reboot on the table and the authors turned it down. So that was offered and the authors pushed for keeping the 4e lore and trying to connect it with the rest of FR's past.
I apparently was incorrect on that. I am misremembering the one cannon, one story, one realms scroll as an official source. The scroll spends a lot of time shooting down reboot suggestions, but it is just freelancers opinions not a reflection of an official conversation.
I think it will be a tough sell to all fans regardless of their favorite edition, but the team knew that going into this. If your a pre-spell plague hold out and want all of the 4e transition events to make perfect sense with old realms lore. I think you are setting yourself up for disappointment. I think that the new team is leaving the explanation for those events vague(in some cases adding vagueness) enough that you can re skin them, or gloss over them in your own game.
I really think the key to enjoying 5e for old fans is a willingness to work with what the authors give us and come up with your own explanation for the 4E transitions that works at your table. The impression I get is that those events aren't going to be frequently referenced in the new era. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
Edited by - Tarlyn on 08 Dec 2013 22:25:18 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2013 : 11:17:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
WotC did put a reboot on the table and the authors turned it down. So that was offered and the authors pushed for keeping the 4e lore and trying to connect it with the rest of FR's past.
Where does this info come from? I've not heard this before. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2013 : 13:08:10
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If thats true, then their egos may have gotten in the way of the future success of FR.
Since the only real lives effected by all of this are the writers, I guess this is one of those "reap what you sow" situations. The rest of us get to sit back and watch what happens, without any worries. I suppose, even if Tarlyn's statement weren't true, what I just said still would be. The only people truly affected by all of this are the people making these decisions.
We have choices, they do not. 4e was all about them forgetting that - D&D is no longer "the 800 lb gorilla in the room." We don't love everything they do, we just move on. I hope with all that kick-boxing they've been doing they've also been practicing their ninja-skills, because its not so easy walking on eggs.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2013 : 16:06:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
So far, I have seen a couple minor deities make stealth returns in novels, and the Weave is supposedly re-woven. But no real "fixes" or any background explanation has happened at all for repairing the damage to the Realms.
And I'm sorry, but Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle was absolutely awful and Murder in Baldur's Gate was incredibly mediocre. The lore and new detail in both is almost negligible and what is there is way below par. New maps? Nope. Updated NPCs with history? Nope. Ghosts is chock full of "yukyuk" and "harhar" jokey nonsense, and MiBG has a few nostalgic nods to the old videogame but is totally uninspired and boring on-the-rails design.
And nothing so far has been "edition neutral" in terms of utility. It's all tacked-on 4th edition.
What's the deal, seriously? FIX THE REALMS.
Personally I liked Murder in Baldur's Gate, though I agree that Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle was a bit weak and felt somewhat disconnected.
Overall, though, I understand your sentiment. I just finished the third book of the Sundering series and I'm sorry to say that it was a little disappointing. It didn't have enough of the metastory that is the overall main point of having this series.
By the conclusion of The Adversary we still have almost no information or reveals about why the Sundering is happening or how it's affecting the gods and the world. The Weave is back, earth-motes are slowly falling, spellscars and plague-touched lands are fading. But why? It's all just a little too distant.
I realize that they wanted to keep things more on a personal, individual level by focusing on stories of specific people while changes are happening in the background. But I think it was a mistake to show so very little of the metastory, especially by the middle of the series.
So I get why you're feeling this way. My enthusiasm is also cooling a little now.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2013 : 22:42:22
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I have gotten a lot of mileage out of Dragonspear so far. It does have a lot of tongue a cheek moments, but even those can be turned into pretty serious situations. For instance, the "Dworcs" concept comes off as a silly gag, but the dwarves in my party that are from the Ironeater clan are really struggling with how to deal with that situation. Also, the detail on Daggerford in the back of the adventure is decent. It is no City of Splendors box set, but it is pretty good.
I have only read a little bit of the campaign guide from Murder in Baldur's Gate. However, the map on the DM screen is sweet and the city info isn't bad. It is a shame that most of the NPCs that are mentioned are killed during the adventure itself. I plan on setting the majority of dragonspear castle's interlude in Baldur's gate. I think with a little effort and access to some of the old material the city itself is usable. Also, four of my players played/ran the adventure and all seemed to like it. It is apparently a lot more complex than the standard stuff ran at D&D encounters(The official WotC org play activities).
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Tarlyn Embersun |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2013 : 22:55:16
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| I was always under the impression that orcs could not produce offspring with Dwarves or Elves. |
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When is this "Sundering" going to happen?
