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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2013 :  23:02:20  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I’ve been pondering for awhile now what Toril was like before the Days of Thunder. There’s very little lore about this time period. It is effectively pre-historic, although that’s not to say there might not be some written records or entities who can recall those ages, but nothing we have (yet) been given access to.

There are clues, however, and I think we can piece together or draw inferences about quite a number of things.

Ed Greenwood stated in his November 1, 2006 post over in his scroll, that “As for the geological age of Toril, we don't know for sure. However, I can say that the eldest elves and dragons who've considered the matter, and the best-informed human sages ditto, all tend to hold opinions that suggest Toril is twice as old as the Age of Thunder... or perhaps a LITTLE less.” The Days of Thunder began circa -35,000. At the time Ed wrote that, the timeline had advanced to around 1375 DR (give or take) which gives us an estimate of around -71,375 DR (or a little less) for a start date of geological time. Accounting for the “little less” we’ll round up to -71,000 DR for an approximate start date. Note, this is not the date of the creation of Realmspace, which could have happened way earlier. This is the best estimate of the geological age of the planet Toril.

Now Ed allows for the possibility of error and plausible denial, so there’s nothing to say that Toril couldn’t be millions or billions of years old, similar to Earth (well, with the exception of of some insistent dragons, elves and sages). However, we know that Ao created Toril’s crystal sphere, and that the physics of Realmspace are different from Earth, so I’m going to assume, for the sake of argument, that the elves, dragons, and sages of Toril know their business pretty well, and are probably somewhere in the ballpark of the correct estimate. Anyone who wants to tell the dragons they’re wrong are kindly invited to do so themselves. Please leave the grounds of Candlekeep before attempting to argue with any dragons.

So that gives us about 36,000 years of history to fill in the gaps. The Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide p. 42 tells us this time period can be roughly divided into 2 ages: The Blue Age and the Shadow Epoch.

Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2013 :  23:05:42  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Blue Age

In the Blue Age, Toril was completely covered in water. There was no land. I’m not sure if this excludes the possibility of any islands or polar ice caps, but we’ll assume that there was effectively no solid surface for land-dwelling life to thrive on. During this age, the primary life forms included the aquatic creator race, referred to variously as the progenitor Batrachi, or proto-batrachi, or the octopoids. There were probably krakens too. And sharks, and plesiosaurs, and all manner of fish and aquatic life. And Aboleths, who were brought in by the aquatic creator race through portals when the octopoids' magical explorations discovered the Far Realms.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2013 :  23:08:11  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Shadow Epoch

During the Shadow Epoch, there was a great deal of surface area for land creatures of an arctic bent to thrive on. I would suggest that the Aearee first emerged during the Shadow Epoch.

Surprisingly, the Aearee subrace that best matches an environment of glaciers with abundant sub-surface fish as a food source, are the Dohwar — the penquinoid avians from the Spelljammer setting. The Dohwar are most likely the oldest of the Aearee subraces, the eldest branch of the avian creator race.

I imagine that in addition to Dohwar, Toril’s glaciers would also be teeming with uldra sprites, yeti (the forebears of the alaghi, taers, and possibly humans?), frost worms, frost drakes or tiny arctic proto-dragons.

We don’t know how long either age lasted, it was probably not split 50/50. And we don’t know how long the ice took to thaw after the sun was reignited/recreated. Even if the sun came back quickly, an ice age could have persisted for thousands of years longer. However, the undersea life could have continued to thrive beneath all the ice and it did, as the aquatic creator race survived well into the Days of Thunder when they transformed through epic magic into the amphibious Batrachi.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2013 :  23:10:00  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Where did all that land come from?

But how to explain the rise of Toril’s continents? This is a question that fascinates me. I see really only 2 explanations: 1) more land, or 2) less water.

The more land explanation breaks down into 2 subcategories: A) Toril’s topography changed to thrust up parts of the crust above the waterline. Or B) extra land mass was added or piled on.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2013 :  23:14:18  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
1a) Continents thrust up

Lots of things could cause the displacement of significant amounts of land mass to cause the continents to rise.

Plate tectonics and vulcanism are natural and logical explanations, if somewhat boring ones.

I’m intrigued by the existence of Toril’s vast Underdark. Where you would expect mostly solid crust going all the way down, you find that Toril is riddled with passages and caverns filled with air. It’s like a Swiss cheese. It’s more like a foam than solid matter.

Foaming is a process that increases volume. Toril’s continents could have been literally inflated by some method. Perhaps the war with the Primordials saw the release of powerful elemental forces that injected air, water, fire, and steam from the elemental planes/chaos throughout Toril’s crust.

I could see giant air, water, and fire elementals seeping through minute cracks and pressing them apart, lifting up the surface to create space for the Underdark. Perhaps Dendar had offspring or siblings, and colossal serpentine Primordials or Tarrasques burrowed through the crust like the sandworms of Dune to make tunnels and caverns, possibly in constant battle with similar minions of the World Serpent.

Perhaps the writhing of the World Serpent himself, woken by the war with the Primordials, or afflicted in his sleep by their fighting, thrust the land up above the oceans.

The continents could even be the body of a dead avatar of the World Serpent himself, killed in the war or perhaps sacrificed to bring an end to it.

Maybe it’s the combined bodies of both an avatar of the World Serpent AND Dendar. Maybe the World Serpent rose up from the core of Toril, twined it’s coils around Dendar and constricted her, squeezing her until she regurgitated the sun. The World Serpent’s avatar crushed Dendar to death, but Dendar sunk her fangs into the avatar, her poison killing him. Their thrashing bodies wracked the sky and waves with their tortuous writhing, until they came to rest, draped around Toril in the shape of the continents.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2013 :  23:29:31  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
1b) More mass added

Mass could only be added if it was created by magic or brought in from elsewhere.

Poured in from the elemental plane of earth or lava is one explanation. I like this idea, as it goes hand in hand with another theory for the missing water I’ll reveal below.

Collision with a celestial body is another explanation. We already have precedence for this: we know that Toril had at least one other moon, Zotha, an ice moon, that was broken and hurled at the surface of Toril by Asgorath, creating the Sea of Fallen Stars.

Perhaps Toril once had a third or even more moons, that were crashed down onto Toril to create the land masses. This could have simultaneously heated and vaporized some of Toril’s abundant water which might have been ejected or escaped into space. More on that below.

Another possible candidate is Abeir. Perhaps Abeir was always a separate planet. Maybe a twin planet sharing Toril’s orbit. Or maybe it was brought in from another plane of existence or reality. Shar could have transported it from across the Shadow Plane which is said to link to other realities. It could be a mobile planet (like the War World in DC comics) that was brought in by the Primoridals filled with troops to fight in their wars with the gods. It could have been a sister planet or twin of Toril that existed out of phase in the same pocket dimension it exists in now. Abeir could have been phased or collided into Toril, thereby combining their mass to displace all the water. Perhaps the Sundering didn’t just clone or split off Abeir, but merely sent Abeir back to where it came from.

Other possibilities nclude Toril’s solar system having another planet, or planets, or maybe asteroids, which crashed into Toril creating the extra land mass.

Maybe there was a planet sized primordial that crashed into Toril. The Elder Evils has an elder evil named Atropus, "The World Born Dead," a planet sized entity, sort of an undead planet that eats other planets. Maybe Toril encountered a similar type of creature the size of a planetoid or moon.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2013 :  23:40:55  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
2) Less water

One easy explanation for less water is that the ice age caused the water to be sequestered in large polar caps. If the polar caps were to ever melt, perhaps Toril might once again be flooded to levels far above where sea level lies now.

Alternatively, the water could have evaporated into space, or been ejected to form the planet Karpri and/or Chandos, two neighboring planets in Toril’s system that are primarily water worlds.

There is precedent for planetary ejection. It’s thought that Earth was once moonless, until a stray planet dubbed Theia crashed into Earth, shattering and melting the two planets which ejected enough matter into space that accreted into the moon we see today. Perhaps Toril suffered a similar collision or trauma that resulted in the loss of so much water. Alternatively, some magic force could have hurled, repelled, floated, or exploded off the water out of Tori's gravity well.

The water could have been drained or siphoned off to another place. Perhaps the water was drained into the Astral Plane, once an empty void, to form the Astral Sea. Or the water could have been siphoned off into the elemental plane of Water. Maybe the water drained into the plane of the Fated Depths, or into the Styx/River of Blood.

Or perhaps Toril lost its water by use of similar magics to those that desiccated the Dark Sun setting’s world of Athas.

I am intrigued with the idea that the octopoid aquatic creator race early on discovered portals in volcanic vents that led to the plane of fire. There they encountered fire elementals and eventually learned spells and methods to capture, summon and enslave them. They used elementals to help them make glass and obsidian, which they used for construction and to make weapons.

In their hubris, the aquatic creator race cross paths with and tried to enslave salamanders, an altogether different breed of elemental. The salamanders were not so easily dominated; the were equally intent on enslaving the octopoids, and war broke out between them.

The Salamander Wars between the plane of Fire and the aquatic creator race took a terrible toll. Ifrits became involved and Marids. The genie races discovered Toril and came through in force, colonizing Toril, enslaving many undersea nations of the octopoid creator race.

At some point, the octopoids discovered portals to the Far Realms and the aboleth came through. Perhaps the octopoids saw them first as allies and saviors, but the aboleths turned out to be a terrible devil’s bargain. The aboleths did their own share of enslaving and empire building beneath the waves, to the octopoids' great regret.

The octopoids eventually discovered magics to compel and imprison the genies in rings, gems and artifacts, and the influence of genies waned somewhat. During the last of the Salamander Wars, in a desperate ploy, the octopoids opened a rift into the plane of fire and poured an ocean’s worth of water over the primary warring nation of their salamander foes, killing the noble family responsible and exterminating millions of salamaders.

Maybe this was the reason that Toril’s oceans receded enough to expose dry land. In retaliation, it is possible that the salamanders or ifrits opened a similar rift to the plane of magma and a substantial portion of lava flowed through, burying the offending nation of octopoids.

One thing is for certain, the Salamander Wars escalated far beyond the warring races of octopoids and salamanders. It soon involved ifrits and marids and perhaps other genie races. The Primordials got involved and then the gods intervened against the Primordials. The Salamander Wars could have been the initial cause that set the war between the gods and the Primoridials in motion.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2013 :  23:53:00  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
3) The Sundering

Here is a third hypothesis, one that may seem counter-intuitive, but for which there is precedent. We are told the Sundering ritual (the one that the elves performed) radiated backwards through time. This caused the One Land, the super-continent of Merrouroboros, to separate into different land masses.

The reasoning for the spell to radiate backwards through time was that the sudden shift in the continental crust would have been too devastating were it to have occurred all at once. It may even have involved forces that were far to strong for the spell to exert in a single instance. So the Sundering projected backwards through time, exerting more gentle forces, both subtle but continuous to press the tectonic plates apart more slowly but inexorably to produce the configuration we see today.

This is analogous to the manner in which a giant ship’s final destination can be changed/displaced by thousands of miles by altering it’s course by merely one degree early in it’s journey. It takes an impossible amount of force to transport a ship thousands of miles in a single instant. But can be done easily through tiny course corrections over a long enough time.

Okay: so in this theory, maybe the Sundering never stopped radiating backwards through time? Maybe the continents didn’t rise up from the waves, so much as they are SINKING in reverse. Maybe the Sundering continued to break up the continents into smaller and more diffuse land masses until they all crumbled and sank beneath the waves or the tectonic plates slipped ever lower into the crust of Toril — all of this moving backwards through time. When time is viewed in the forward direction it looks like the continents are actually rising.

Heck, maybe the Sundering even broke up Toril itself creating Chandos and or Karpri, or maybe even all the celestial bodies of Toril’s solar system. That notion kind of blows my mind.

Maybe Toril’s geological age began 71,000 years ago because it’s creation was really it’s dissolution, fragmenting and fracturing into all the celestial bodies of Realmspace. What looks like a dissolution in reverse looks like a creation when run forwards. Maybe when observed in forwards time, it looks like Toril accreted as a planet from smaller celestial bodies.

We know this explanation to be true to some degree. Although I don’t know if the Sundering continued all the way back to the beginning. I can't say for sure if the Sundering caused Toril's creation. But we do know that it radiated far enough backwards in time to create a second timeline in which the continents were substantially different. This is the explanation for the LeShay, who have been named as the Fey creator race, and who were driven partially extinct by the Sundering. This may have been their motivation to escape Toril and seek refuge in the Feywild.

The Epic Level Handbook p. 202 tells us that “LeShay are the mere remnant of a once-great race whose origins are lost to history. They claim to predate the current multiverse and refer darkly to some castastrophe that not only wiped out most of their people but changed time so that their era never existed, even in the remotest past. Attempting to undo the catastrophe would apparently result in another disaster even more terrible, so the decimated survivors—less than gods but more than mortals—for the most part merely attempt to amuse themselves and stave off ennui as they work out their individual destinies.” It has been revealed in other lore that the Sundering was the catastrophe to which the ELH refers.

If I recall correctly, the LeShay have been canonized as the Fey creator race in Brian James' Realmslore article on Sarifal in Dragon #376.

Edited by - Gray Richardson on 20 Apr 2013 23:59:15
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2013 :  00:09:41  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By the way, this scroll is a continuation of some ideas I put forth in this scroll: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17360
which is about the Great School Pantheon of the aquatic creator race (pre-Ramenos). It discusses a little bit more about the pre-history of the octopoids in the time before their metamorphosis into the Batrachi.
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1600 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2013 :  12:34:44  Show Profile Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wonderful stuff, Gray!

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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Hawkins
Great Reader

USA
2131 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2013 :  18:35:50  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
An enjoyable read. Thank you, Gray.

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2013 :  19:07:47  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Was the sun around during the blue age? Even underwater life may be dependent on some kind of heat/energy source. It may have been that there were more elementals than anything during this time. Just a thought.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2013 :  06:10:45  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There was a sun during the Blue Age; during that period, Toril was a water world — of presumably warm or temperate climate. I imagine it as something like the Silurian period of Earth's history, when all life was confined to the oceans. Although, Earth had land during it's Silurian period, while Toril had none — or effectively none. Perhaps there were a few stray islands, giant mountains whose tips protruded just above the water. Maybe there were a few floating earth motes. Possibly some glaciers around the poles, maybe even polar ice caps, we just don't know enough to say for sure.

But, at least for a portion of the Shadow Epoch, the sun was extinguished. Swallowed by Dendar the Night Serpent. I am assuming that this is a fact, and not merely a myth. What lore there is on the on the matter presents it as factual.

Although, I suppose it's possible the Dendar story could just be a story to explain some physical process that affected the sun — say for instance, enveloped by a thick, stellar, carbon cloud, or for the sun's fusion reaction to be inhibited somehow. Note, Realmspace does mention that Toril's sun is powered by fusion, although it's vague as to whether this is just a theory or not.

Now the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide p. 42 states that "Eons passed before sunlight warmed the world once more. Oceans thawed, then receded, allowing dry land to rise above the frigid water." You could read this 2 ways: Either it took eons for the sun to come back, OR, regardless of how quickly the sun returned, it took eons for its sunlight to reverse the climate change caused by the shock of the sun disappearing.

Which reminds me of this very cool video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rltpH6ck2Kc
In which they discuss what would happen to Earth if the sun just suddenly happened to disappear.

According to their figures, it would take about a week for average surface temperatures to reach freezing 32°F/0°C, which is cold but not so horrible that we couldn't survive.

After a year, the average surface temperature would reach -100°F/-73°C, which is really, really cold, but still survivable.

I figure that the ice shell around Toril(resulting from the surface of the oceans freezing) would actually insulate the lower depths, trapping what heat there was left in the liquid water below. Volcanic vents, and portals to the elemental plane of Fire could radiate some heat that might help, and life might congregate around those sources of warmth to survive. Although, lots of aquatic species can survive in water that is at or below freezing temperatures, many species have natural antifreeze chemicals in their blood to keep ice crystals from forming.

According to the above video, life could theoretically persist for billions of years, trapped below a frozen ocean, with liquid water warmed by geothermal energy.

Now, all this to say that we don't know how long the sun was actually snuffed out. Myself, I am fond of the notion that the sun returned after a few months or years at most, and it just took Toril thousands of years to thaw. But even if the sun were to vanish for thousands of years before coming back, some life could still survive even still.

Photosynthesis would stop. But some plants could store enough sugar for years to live on in the mean time. We know evolution works differently on Toril, so perhaps there was some kind of punctuated equilibrium that caused plants to adapt rapidly to rely on other resources than sunlight. Predation on other species, bioluminescence, use of volcanic vents, magical portals to the planes of fire, magma and radiance, faerzress, earth nodes, and don't forget the Weave itself. Perhaps aquatic plant life of that age evolved (spontaneously and swiftly) to utilize the raw magic present in the environment in place of photosynthesis.

And Sleyvas, you may have hit on something. Had Toril been wracked by terrible wars between the primordials and gods, there could be all sorts of planar rifts, elemental creatures and residual magical effects (similar to faerzress) that could contribute to the survival of the sun-deprived lower depths.

In fact, I can imagine plants and oozes and parasitic creatures that adapted to infest fire elementals that had wandered through a rift or were stuck on Toril somehow. You could maybe even have whole coral reefs built up around an immobilized fire elemental or primordial creature trapped below the center — just a few bubbles of steam wafting up to mark it's watery, living grave.

Although, maybe some of those creatures were symbiotic, rather than parasitic, and the elemental creature perhaps benefited somehow from the relationship. What kind of joined creatures might result? I'm picturing flaming algae-men for some reason, similar to Marvel Comic's character Man-Thing.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2013 :  06:40:52  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm curious too what happened to the Sun's gravity. If gravity even applies in Realmspace. Did Toril just go off careening around Realmspace, bouncing off the crystal shell like a wild billiard? Or did it continue in it's path somehow, independently of the sun, which it might do if the physics of Realmspace do not require the sun's gravity in order for celestial bodies to maintain their orbits.

Perhaps Dendar just occupied the place of the sun resting comfortably, coiled in a ball at the center of Realmspace, with the sun warming her belly. If so, then there's no reason the sun could not have still exerted it's gravitational pull on Toril's solar system. Even though it's light and heat might have been shrouded by Dendar, it's gravity could still have been in effect.

But, if Dendar ate the sun, and then returned to it's extraplanar lair (wherever that was back in the day) leaving nothing at the center of the solar system to anchor the planets, that could have had some very interesting consequences indeed.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2013 :  13:42:19  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Did Dendar swallow the sun... only to excrete it out per se later. Your idea of Dendar enwrapping the sun is intriguing as well. Another kind of interesting idea could be in perspective as well, what if Dendar simply blocked Toril from the Sun (either blackening the atmosphere, enwrapping the world, or moving a large field of asteroids between Toril and the Sun). The other planets may not even have been affected.

I do like the idea presented that during this time with no sun that life only continued to live due to the exertions of elementals. Its not often that fire elementals are seen in such a positive light, but truly they would have been such. Steam elementals would definitely have been able to make the world livable. During this era, it might have been that water and fire elementals warred (with some fire elementals at the molten core and some on the frozen surface), including such beings as efreeti and marids. It could also have been that the accumulated earth is composed of the dead bodies of earth elementals who opposed both sides. Also, given that the outer shell of Toril became solid, this might have been the time that beings of water began to leave the oceans for the surface (where they found cracks in the ice near say fire and steam elemental communities) as amphibians.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2013 :  19:13:54  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dendar apparently dwells, or is accessible by, a cave somewhere on the Fugue Plane. There must be water on the Fugue - after all, it does apparently join a minor tributary somewhere on the River Styx - and perhaps the material of this demiplane originated on Toril. Call it a planar collision instead of a planetary one, where the "smaller" and "larger" planes share a wobbly orbit around each other.

In fact, Toril has intersected and overlapped with the Feywild and Shadowfell (and Abeir) before - sometimes quite violently! - allowing some material (even entire oceans and continents and floating cities) to be exchanged.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 23 Apr 2013 19:15:30
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Bakra
Senior Scribe

628 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2013 :  19:15:00  Show Profile Send Bakra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson


Perhaps Dendar just occupied the place of the sun resting comfortably, coiled in a ball at the center of Realmspace, with the sun warming her belly. If so, then there's no reason the sun could not have still exerted it's gravitational pull on Toril's solar system. Even though it's light and heat might have been shrouded by Dendar, it's gravity could still have been in effect.



I like your theory.
I could see after consuming such a large meal Dendar was too lethargic to move. Or maybe the Sun simply didn’t want to move. Perhaps a powerful god resided inside the sun and put up a fight. The resulting indigestion caused Dendar to vomit forth its meal. The same could be said about Toril, if it is the physical embedment of a deity then it is possible the deity decided to stay ‘put.’

I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1073 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2013 :  20:38:24  Show Profile  Visit crazedventurers's Homepage Send crazedventurers a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I’m intrigued by the existence of Toril’s vast Underdark. It’s like a Swiss cheese. It’s more like a foam than solid matter.

Foaming is a process that increases volume. Perhaps the war with the Primordials saw the release of powerful eleme

The continents could even be the body of a dead avatar of the World Serpent himself, killed in the war or perhaps sacrificed to bring an end to it.


Post snipped for brevity:

Awesome I love every idea from the foaming onwards, this is being knicked and used in my game if any player every asks this question.

Brilliant Gray

Cheers

Damian

So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2013 :  22:25:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good stuff, Gray!

Another possibility for the Shadowed Age could be a meteor or massive volcanic explosion that created a long-lasting cloud of dust.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 24 Apr 2013 :  03:53:58  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Why couldn't the water have receded when the polar icecaps formed? From what I understand, if all the ice on our poles melted, Earth would also be a 'water world'. That would imply that Abeir-Toril was warmer during the Blue Age. Perhaps the 'new sun' burned hotter, or the original sun did (because we did indeed have two). The land masses could have formed/appeared after the death of the first sun, and the world was cast in darkness (as the polar icecaps grew).

The other (fantasy) possibility is that Toril is/was a 'Hollow World'... perhaps all worlds are (there are actual RW theories about this). Maybe after some sort of cataclysm, cracks formed in the crust (beneath the world-sea) and the water began to pour into the newly formed Underdark (thus the Underdark itself is the damage sustained during that cataclysm), and created vast, Underground oceans (a home for all those Antideluvian/Lovecraftian horrors).

Anyhow, I personally go with the first one - its the simplest explanation. No need to over-think things.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

As for the rest, I like it, but I would apply it to my 'One world' theory - that the 'first world' was really a vast plane; the Prime material itself. The real Sundering shattered reality and gave us the Crystal Spheres. Thus, the 'Creator races' are part of every setting, because they existed before the material Plane was Sundered. That makes sense to me, because most of their 'creations' are still around, on most other (D&D) worlds.

Thus, there should be traces of Batrachi, Sarrukh, Aeriee, Fey, and human civilizations on nearly all D&D worlds, just known by other names (except for the humans and Fey, which seems pretty universal). In fact, in my own musings, I call the first human civilization Blackmoor, which is why that civilization has a place in three different D&D settings (that we know of). The Blackmoorians built a monolithic magi-tech based civilization, but their strange technology somehow destabilized the planer structure, which in-part lead to the first Sundering (just one piece of the puzzle). This is why tech of any kind is banned on most (D&D) worlds.

At least, thats how I spin it.

I just had an odd thought... what if the Great Wheel - the vast machine that is the wheel - was really created to repair the original damage? What if its purpose is to eventually bring all the Crystal Sphere back together and merge it into a unified material Plane once again? Seems to me thats something a LOT of Powers - both good and evil - would want to stop. The Modrons are the mechanics of the wheel, keeping it turning, and it is their goal to bring order to the chaos once again (for they perceive the current universe as an abomination).

And now I have Pink Floyd's Welcome to the Machine going through my head again. Perhaps the Wheel itself was built by The Blackmoorians, with the hopes of re-unifying humanity into a new Blackmoor.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Apr 2013 04:20:47
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 24 Apr 2013 :  04:28:03  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, I agree about the polar caps. That's a strong possibility. That's what I meant above in 2) when I said "sequestered in large polar caps." Certainly, if Toril started out as a warm water world with little to no polar ice caps, but then after the ice age a good deal of the water ended up getting frozen in those polar caps, then that could account for enough of a water drop to expose land.

In fact, I think that's probably the most reasonable explanation from a scientific point of view. I just find it a little boring as an explanation for the very reason that it is so logical and scientific. The writer in me scorns such a milquetoast explanation, but the scientist in me would put my money on that one over all others.

As for your "Hollow Earth" theory, that's a cool idea too. I hadn't thought of that one, but the Mystara setting planet had the Hollow World setting located inside of it, so there's good precedent. I think it unlikely that Toril is hollow, if there would have been some inkling of it before now. Sureley if you traveled far enough down in the Underdark, gravity would start to reverse as you approached the inner surface (maybe, depending on what physics it was following).

But even if Toril isn't hollow, the foaming process and "aeration" of the crust (by whatever means) to form the Underdark could certainly have seen a good deal of water spill down into the lower depths of the Underdark. I vaguely remember mention of some lore that the Underdark extends beneath Toril's oceans, was it called the Underdeep? Or am I appropriating that term from elsewhere?

Heck there could have been aquatic elves that turned into aquatic drow that are living in water caverns below the ocean floor. Just an odd random thought.

Edited by - Gray Richardson on 24 Apr 2013 04:29:07
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Sightless
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Posted - 24 Apr 2013 :  04:57:53  Show Profile Send Sightless a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

I'm curious too what happened to the Sun's gravity. If gravity even applies in Realmspace. Did Toril just go off careening around Realmspace, bouncing off the crystal shell like a wild billiard? Or did it continue in it's path somehow, independently of the sun, which it might do if the physics of Realmspace do not require the sun's gravity in order for celestial bodies to maintain their orbits.

Perhaps Dendar just occupied the place of the sun resting comfortably, coiled in a ball at the center of Realmspace, with the sun warming her belly. If so, then there's no reason the sun could not have still exerted it's gravitational pull on Toril's solar system. Even though it's light and heat might have been shrouded by Dendar, it's gravity could still have been in effect.

But, if Dendar ate the sun, and then returned to it's extraplanar lair (wherever that was back in the day) leaving nothing at the center of the solar system to anchor the planets, that could have had some very interesting consequences indeed.



Well, if the serpent simply swallowed the sun, it would still emit complex electricomagnetic patterns through the body of the devourer. There is evidence of this in the form of rogue pulsars that continue to do the same, even when covered by nebula. No I should note, that we are dealing with an enherently magical creature, but there is no reason to assume that the electromagnetic fields wouldn’t simply pass through, and possibly some level of ultraviolet radation as well. Thus keeping the planet from freezing completely.

Additionally, the mass of the creature being discussed would be, by the source of it’s very nature, a sorce of gravitational pull, just as the presence of any massive body acts upon that of another. The presence of the world serpent near the planet, could without any action of the sun, serve as a gravitational anchor . I have notes on the ancient Feyan civilization somewhere, and it’s modern day connections to the snow elves, or Hylesigen’Tel’Quessir, and the reminents of that great nation. When I come across them, I’ll post it for general consumption.

We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.

Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 24 Apr 2013 :  05:32:21  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
Perhaps a powerful god resided inside the sun and put up a fight.
I feel strongly that the first sun was the embodiment of or linked to a god (or possibly primal spirit, these terms get tricky), in the same way Selûne is tied to Toril's moon. That god was probably either Amaunator or a cognate deity in the Great School pantheon, a god that I envisage they worshiped in the form of a golden ammonite.

See the Monstrous Compendium Forgotten Realms Appendix (MC11) for details of this creature. It's essentially a giant octopus with a golden spiral shell. I imagine his disk-like, spiral shell glowed with a golden luster that shined like the light of the sun.

When Dendar swallowed the sun, this early incarnation or predecessor of Amaunator died, and the dusk portfolio became supreme, thus beginning the tripartite solar cycle of day, dusk and dawn, with each incarnation of the solar deity, Amaunator, Jergal/Myrkul, Lathander, each in his turn dying or "setting" as the next one rises in power.

Not that it has to be the same god reincarnated each time. They are just portfolios or offices that can be passed on to someone else, as Jergal proved by pawning the dusk portfolio off on Myrkul — ostensibly due to ennui, but potentially because he meant to circumvent his impending death.

In fact lots of gods have held the dusk portfolio, as it is traditionally held by the god of the dead. I'm pretty sure Panzuriel held it when the Great School pantheon was around. I think it likely that Quorlinn held it during the days when the Aearee were held in bondage by Batrachi thearchs.

In fact, I'm certain Krocaa held the day portfolio. Krocaa became an absentee god when Quorlinn rose to support the Aearee during their thralldom. And Syranita held the dawn portfolio, when she rose to prominence in the Aearee golden age, after the Tearfall event and the terrible darkness of the seven-fold winter.

In fact, Syran means "dawn" or "east" in the language of the Aearee-Syran and Itla can be translated as "queen" or "brood-mother." or "matriarch." Syranita (or Syranitla, as they pronounced it) thus means Dawn-Queen or Dawn-Mother. Aearee means simply "flock." The Aearee-Syran were the Eastern Flock, or the Flock of the Rising Sun, or the Flock of the Dawn, which neatly describes their geographic location, the colors of their plumage and their devotion to Syranita all in one name.

The name aarakocra, by which we know their race today, is a corruption of the name of the western nation, the Aearee-Krocaa, who took their name from their patron god, the All-Father Krocaa. Their far-flung civilization spanned the whole of the western half of Merrouroboros in a confederation of loosely affiliated cantons centered around the capital at the Grand Aerie of Viakoo on Mount Havraquoar.

Null probably held the dusk portfolio for the dragon pantheon.

I imagine that Krocaa must have had an abbreviated renaissance near the end of the age of the Aearee. Krocaa had withdrawn in seclusion due to some great shame or trick perpetrated by Quorlinn — sometime around the period when the Batrachi rose to power and enslaved the avian races. But now the All-Father had flown back from beyond the edge of the world. Having returned from his long absence, he enjoyed a period of brief glory before Null gobbled him out of the sky.

As above so below, and soon the rest of the Aearee likewise fell to the predations of the dragon race.

Edited by - Gray Richardson on 24 Apr 2013 05:39:22
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 24 Apr 2013 :  06:25:30  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Dendar apparently dwells, or is accessible by, a cave somewhere on the Fugue Plane. There must be water on the Fugue - after all, it does apparently join a minor tributary somewhere on the River Styx - and perhaps the material of this demiplane originated on Toril.

I think that the Fugue Plane must necessarily have originated as a sea plane or perhaps an entirely water-filled demiplane. All life on Toril during the Blue Age was aquatic. If the Fugue Plane existed as an antechamber for the reception of newly dead souls, they would not have arrived in the form of bipedal, land-walking petitioners, before they continued on to their afterlife in the paradise of the Fated Depths.

No, the Fugue Plane, if it existed, and it may not have been created yet, but if it was, then it was most certainly a water plane at that time. Then perhaps a surface appeared, along with some ice or suitably glacial terrain during the Shadow Epoch to accommodate those creatures who had adapted to surface life on Toril's frozen envelope of ice.

During the Days of the Thunder, the ice of the Fugue melted, revealing an atoll of dry land in the center of the demiplane.

After the aquatic creator race abandoned the Great School Pantheon in favor of Ramenos, after he transformed them and they took to the land as the amphibious Batrachi, the waters receded further and further until there was a lake in the middle of an island, then the whole plane became dry land surrounded by a river. And over time, the central lake turned into a marsh, then a polluted, sluggish, river that bisected the plane, joining at both ends to the encircling ring of water. Eventually, the central river dried to what is the River Slyth as we know it today, a corrupted river of knives, barely a creek, filled with mud and ooze and vile liquid from millennia of blood and tears shed by dead races. The River Slyth wends it's way through the heart of the City of Judgment and forms the moat around Kelemvor's Crystal Spire.

The River Slyth is said to connect to the River of Blood, also known as the Styx. It is also thought to connect to the Plane of the Fated Depths, if that plane, former home, now tomb to the dead gods of the Great School pantheon, even still exists after the Spellplague.

The Night Serpent Dendar does indeed reside in a cavern next to the banks of the river that girds the Fugue, which indicates her intimate connection with the abode of the Dead.

I figure that the Fugue was created as part of the treaty that ended the War of Light and Darkness between Selûne and Shar. This may even be when the Tablets of Ao were created. The Fugue was a mechanism to enforce the orderly disposition of souls, a neutral ground, to ensure that souls who had chosen a patron would be safeguarded until they could be collected by an agent of their patron god.

Apparently there was lots of soul-pilfering during the war. Gods were stealing souls from each other to press into their armies — against the will and faith of those souls. They were probably even slaying mortals left and right to provide new souls to recruit into their armies. The Fugue was the solution to all this lawlessness.

It's basically a bus-station, under the watch of a station-master — whoever holds the portfolio of the Dead (not Death, but the Dead). Under the treaty, whoever held the office of the Steward of the Fugue had exclusive dominion over the plane and was charged by Ao, or the tablets, or the terms of the treaty, to guard the Fugue accordingly.

If the War of Light and Darkness ended around the time that the sun was restored anew in the sky, then perhaps the Fugue wasn't created until well into the Shadow Epoch. After the sun came back, but before the world had thawed.

As slayer of the first sun, Dendar is intricately linked to the portfolio of dusk, and so it's appropriate that she finds her lair in the home of Dusk's master. In fact, it's conceivable that Dendar was the very first holder of that office. Who better to be the first holder of the dusk portfolio than the being who swallowed the first sun from the sky and plunged the world into darkness?
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Markustay
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USA
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Posted - 24 Apr 2013 :  14:59:43  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I really like the 'something swallowed the sun' thing, because even though its rather fantastical/mythical, it also would lend itself to a more scientific explanation of why Realmspace didn't just fall apart.

So yeah, a 'great big monster' is pure fantasy, but when we apply physics to the myth, then some sort of power (a deity-level being is little more then a vast energy field) somehow tried to absorb the sun, and weather successful or not, matter/energy can neither be created nor destroyed, so that the electromagnetic/gravitational forces present when the sun was intact would still be present even if its condition was changed. If it merely 'blew-up', then the energy would be disbursed, but if it was absorbed by something else, that would explain how Realmspace - as a system - continued to exist.

In other words, lets say Dender (or whoever) was like a Black Hole and it engulfed the sun. The forces surrounding that singularity would not go away - in fact, they should actually increase, after combining with the energy of the second singularity/power. The energy was converted, not destroyed.

Combining this with what we know of FR's cosmology - that there were two suns* - and that we have (at least) two sun gods that apparently 'take turns', and that the world does indeed go through cycles (periods of hot and cold - I had asked Ed about these some time ago), then it stands to reason that Toril goes through major epochs were the climate and creatures dominating change from time to time.

Perhaps the theoretical third 'sun god' - the Dusk Lord - is responsible for those periods when the worlds is darkest and coldest? Maybe Jergal 'stepped down' in order to skip what was to be the next phase of darkness?



*According to both the blurb about the War of Light & Darkness, and the Draconic myths, and add to that our 'new knowledge' via the GHotR concerning the period of darkness during the first Sundering.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Apr 2013 15:01:53
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 24 Apr 2013 :  15:13:16  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The above was a response before I fully read and absorbed your last two posts, Gray.

Once again, I find it very easy to apply all of this to my more universal 'Over-cosmology' - that the D&Dverse is actually the remnants of a shattered Uber-plane (dimension). The suns within each sphere are just 'echoes' (vestiges?) of that original, first sun. Each Crystal Sphere is like a tiny, imperfect copy of that first world, in much the same way that each of the cells of our body contain the 'map' (DNA) of all the rest.

Thus, Primordials were the powers that existed before the Material Plane was shattered, and deities - like the spheres themselves - are just 'echoes' of those primordials. And like a single (stem) cell, the deities are able to 'grow' into their power, and even become primordial-level entities (power-wise, at least).

Perhaps that is what the Primordials truly feared - their 'offspring' (really just minute pieces of themselves that grow, like clones) would eventually replace them. That sort-of fits in with the current D&D cosmology, as well as many RW mythos.

And strangely, this thread has not only re-ignited my fandom of FR, but has gotten me itching to get back to my own HB setting design.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 24 Apr 2013 :  15:24:41  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There was no need for an afterlife - nor its 'way-station' (The Fugue) before the first Sundering, because death itself did not exist until after the War of Light and Darkness (and presumably, the sundering was the final event/culmination of that war).

Which is why anything born before death came into being is not subject to its rules, and thus, members of those Creator Races should still be around. Perhaps the Sarrukh liches aren't really liches in the traditional sense - maybe they just can't die, and their material bodies have just reached a state where they are falling apart (because decay probably also came into being with death, and they are subject to its rules, because decay is tied-in with time, something the current {shattered} Material Plane is bound to).

Hmmmm... I just realized that death (and decay, etc) are tied directly to time, so maybe time itself came into being after the godwar. Or, at least, the current set of rules governing it. Before that, in the 'first world' (I imagine something very much akin to the Nordic cosmology), everything had a sort-of 'timelessness' to it.


EDIT: Still taking it all in. I really like Dender as the proto-Jergal (Dusk Lord). Maybe swallowing the sun was too much for thew world serpent, and that's when the serpent itself was shattered (fractured into lesser incarnations)?

It would make sense that The World serpent was shattered when the world was Sundered. Thus, Dender is just that portion of the WS that took on the Dusk portfolio.

Now we just have to figure-out why the world-serpent would swallow the sun (which merges well with the Draconic myths, BTW). Could Shar have tricked it into doing so? Or was it more like a moth being drawn to a flame?


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Apr 2013 15:34:53
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1600 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2013 :  16:21:26  Show Profile Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Only one question, MT: why would decay affect them, and not death?

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 24 Apr 2013 :  16:45:32  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not sure - just tossing ideas out there.

Like I said, it has something to do with time. Before death existed, it appears their was an 'Age of Timelessness'. The existence of death itself caused a very basic corruption within the universe itself, like a cancer.

Perhaps death is something that has to 'be arranged' at the moment of creation/birth, sort of like those tapestries the Fates weave. Since they were never meant for death, those beings live on, but time itself now erodes at their forms. Not as much as other things - they do still have some protection from it (Heck... they are still walking around after 35,000 years, right?), but everything eventually succumbs to entropy...

Thats it!

Entropy entered our universe from the Far Realms when the world was shattered, and changed the rules!

It was Entropy that gave birth to death and decay, when the first world (the Ordial some call Ymir) was destroyed.

So anyway... yeah... death is like a contract, and has to be prearranged (although those contracts can be re-written with deals), but decay makes no deals... everyone must succumb. After all, who's making deals with Moander, or Tharizdun/Ghaunadaur? Their followers wallow in decay.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 24 Apr 2013 :  19:41:59  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was starting to get worried about the lack of juicy topics lately, but im glad to see it was just temporary. This is quality stuff, keep those creative juices flowing everyone.

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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 25 Apr 2013 :  08:04:34  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

There was no need for an afterlife - nor its 'way-station' (The Fugue) before the first Sundering, because death itself did not exist until after the War of Light and Darkness (and presumably, the sundering was the final event/culmination of that war).



Au contraire, mon frere. Death appeared after the conflict began, but the War of Light and Darkness began with the creation of the first sun. I think maybe Shar had a legitimate grievance there. Selûne ignited the sun unilaterally, against Shar's wishes. Up to that point they had been sisters, and as co-mothers of Chauntea, effectively life-partners. Shar understandably saw this as a terrible betrayal. After all, the creation of the sun changed the balance between light and darkness. Selûne may have been ostensibly creating it out of love for Chauntea, but it wasn't a purely selfless act, as the creation of Day tipped the balance of power heavily in Selûne's favor as the goddess of light, and diminished Shar by 50% or more.

Now, presumably there was no life on Toril before the first sun. So the creation of the sun was both the start of life on Toril, and the start of the War of Light and Darkness.

It's not clear how long before Death came on the scene, but to my mind, the first living beings were not immortal for all that very long. I think Death was around from the death of the first casualty in the war. It may have even been seen as a merciful release from the suffering and pain inflicted on and endured by the immortal beings from their injuries in the war. Perhaps Death was a good guy on Selûne's side, and Murder was his dark counterpart on the side of Darkness. No doubt both Death and Murder were used to reap souls for each side to populate the armies of Light and Darkness.

To quote from p. 260 of the History section of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting Book (3E): "Chauntea begged for warmth so that she might nurture life and living creatures upon her form, and the twin goddesses disagreed over whether this should be done. The two fought, and from their divine conflict the deities of war, disease, murder, death, and other fell forces were created.

Selûne reached beyond the universe to a plane of fire, using pure flame to ignite one of the heavenly bodies so that Chauntea would be warmed. Shar became enraged and began to snuff out all light and warmth in the universe."


So War (Tempus, Targus and Garagos — all being aspects or fragments or the original god of War), Disease (Talona), Murder (whoever that guy was, I think this portfolio changes hands quite often), Death (note that he is a separate entity from Murder) and other (unnamed) fell forces originated when these concepts entered into the collective Zeitgeist of early Toril as a result of the War between Selûne and Shar.

I would bet that Murder probably killed the first Death and took his portfolio, thereby consolidating the two portfolios in one deity, where they rested by the time of Jergal. Heck, Dendar could have had the portfolio of Murder, for you could say she murdered the first sun. It would make sense for her to have both murder and dusk portfolios. Or alternatively, she could have killed the first sun at the behest of Murder. She might have started out as one of his minions or even his mount.

They FRCS doesn't mention Destruction, but surely he was one of those other fell forces.

I feel certain that after the creation of the first sun, Shar retreated in rage and sorrow into the Plane of Shadow for a time, to nurse her woe and collect her thoughts and strategize. From there Shar traveled across Deepest Shadow to other worlds (the 3e Manual of the Planes tells us that Shadow connects to other worlds and realities, so it's a natural medium for Shar to use) in order to recruit help from outside Realmspace, allies and counselors and mercenaries she brought in from outside to help her wage war against her sister.

One who came to her aid was known as Gruumsh. Originally an archfey driven from the Feywild by Corellon, he too had slunk away to the Shadowfell to nurse his grave wounds, his injured pride and mourn the loss of his eye. Shar and Gruumsh made a pact to aid each other against their nemeses, and so Gruumsh entered into Realmspace where he became known by names such as Talos, Bhaelros, and Kozah, god of destruction and storms. He was worshipped by the aquatic creator race in the guise of a one-eyed kraken, or shark, or morkoth.

Much later, when Ramenos transformed the octopoid race into the Batrachi, Gruumsh/Talos saved his followers from the metamorphosis, or pulled them back from the brink of change, by destroying the spell (at least it's effects on them). But as a result of this, his surviving followers all lost one eye, a change which bred true to their descendants, who are today known collectively as "Tako." I think it possible that the name "Tako" may even be related etymologically to the name "Talos."

I feel certain it was Shar who recruited demons and devils and other fiends as mercenaries to fight for her, thereby granting the Hells and the Tanar'ri a foothold in Realmspace where they had been non-existent up to that point. No fiend-lord wanted to be left out, so they sent avatars of themselves, possibly even avatars of the very planes of Hell and the Abyss themselves, which may be how those planes came to inhabit Toril's Astral Plane.

But to circle back to the original topic of this post, I think Death was around from early on in the war. Shortly after the war began, which was basically when the sun ignited, which was at the beginning of life on Toril.

The War of Light and Darkness was between fellow gods. It's not the same thing as the wars between the gods and the primordials, a fairly frequent, on-going conflict that raged (periodically flaring up and dying down again) off and on from the very beginning of Toril up through around -31,000 DR when the Batrachi freed some imprisoned Primordials in an attempt to defeat their dire enemies, the Titans of Annam's brood.

I am assuming those primordials had been imprisoned in The Barrens of Doom & Despair, which seems to have been originally intended as a divine prison plane to house the defeated enemies of the gods, including Talona. Unless Talona was there voluntarily as the gods' jailer over the primordials and dawn titans, or the caretaker of the plane.

But seeing as Disease is really an out-of-control surfeit of life, that reproduces and consumes relentlessly, overwhelming the body's defenses (whether bacteria, viruses, cancer, parasites, fungus and other forms of rot and decay), I always thought the Barrens were designed (in part) to hem Talona in. To enclose her with hot, arid, stony terrain upon which no life could gain purchase. Note that her domain is the one place where there is an abundance of water and marshes, teeming with pests and parasites and vermin galore, but they have not been able to spread beyond the limits of her domain.

The released primordials included Asgorath, mother of all dragonkind on Toril, who hurled down Zotha, Toril's smaller, ice moon upon the Batrachi during the Tearfall event that created the Sea of Fallen Stars, which had previously been several smaller inland seas or lakes with brackish marshes and swamps stretching for vast distances between and around them. Perfect environment for the amphibious Batrachi. In fact, 3 expansive Batrachi nations lived in the vicinity surrounding these seas: the capital of the Zhoukoudien empire was seated in the middle of the area, but stretched far west to the shores of the Black Sea and Pourounkorokale. Boitumelo lay to the northwest. And Kolophoon stretched from the eastern edges to the mountains dividing the region known today as Faerûn from distant Kara-Tur. This put all three nations in close contact with the Jotunbrood tribes who lived just to the northeast of the seas, and with whom they constantly warred.

Tearfall took out a huge portion of the Batrachi nations. The ash and debris in the upper atmosphere blocked vital sunlight from reaching Toril's surface. The terrible fimbulwinter that followed lasted seven years. It plunged Toril into darkness and devastating climate change that plummetted temperatures to freezing, echoing in small part the death of the first sun from millennia before.

That was the last straw, prompting Ao to intervene and split Abeir-Toril in two, giving one world to the children of the gods, and the other to the children of the primordials.

So the Sundering of the Worlds was the end to the wars between the gods and primordials. The Sundering of Worlds was not, however, related to the War of Light and Darkness which ended with creation/revival/re-ignition of the second sun (Lathander) millennia prior.

Edited by - Gray Richardson on 25 Apr 2013 08:23:09
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