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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Apr 2013 : 07:12:49
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Does it seem that we are suddenly lacking female lead characters, in the last few years, as compared to the 1e through 2e generation of books?
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2013 : 07:35:31
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| because they were all assassinated during the dark era of 4e realms..... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2013 : 08:38:40
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| Try reading the Brimstone Angels series. Its about a pair of female tieflings. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2013 : 14:16:49
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| its all a secret plot.... basically what they don't want you to know is that they're secretly <thunk>.... Oww, is that a dart stiiiicccckkkkkiiiinnnngggg ooouuuu mmmaaa nnnnnaaaacccckkkkk |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2013 : 15:02:37
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| We warned you not to speak of this Sleyvas . You left us no choice but to take this unfortunate but necessary course of action. |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2013 : 15:10:02
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Does it seem that we are suddenly lacking female lead characters, in the last few years, as compared to the 1e through 2e generation of books?
Since you specifically mentioned 1e through 2e, I'm sure you can find an equal number if not more in the source books, online material, supplements and novels ranging from the 3e to 4E.
I just thought of three from the 4E novels right off the top of my head.
Try reading the Waterdeep series an Venom in her Vein for some female leads. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2013 : 16:59:16
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| Amarune Whitewave, Glathra Barcantle, Talane, Targrael (and the mighty Storm Silverhand)...some very strong female presence there, including one lead character. All from the last Elminster series of books. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2013 : 18:29:16
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I'm completely not biased, but you should check out my books, particularly the Shadowbane series. Even though a male character has the main billing, my female characters pretty much take over most of the time. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2013 : 19:43:50
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| Aww thank you for that Erik, just a little more input, does Helm in this trio come along as a dead power, or sort of an echo that is still bossing folks around? |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2013 : 20:56:30
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Aww thank you for that Erik, just a little more input, does Helm in this trio come along as a dead power, or sort of an echo that is still bossing folks around?
And spoil the mystery? Surely you jest.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2013 : 22:00:33
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| I've noticed the reverse, to be honest. I'm actually rather sick and tired of the female only organizations, priesthoods, female dominated stuff, etc, in D&D things. Have you ever noticed that nothing is male only or male dominated? If there is, it's probably something that's just typical like some tyrants or whatever, nothing deeper than that. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 01:26:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
Have you ever noticed that nothing is male only or male dominated? If there is, it's probably something that's just typical like some tyrants or whatever, nothing deeper than that.
*ahem, cough* Bregan D'aerthe *cough, cough*
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"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 02:34:44
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Not only leads, actually, but female villains too. A sad thing that I hope 5e would address. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 03:05:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Okay, but are they REALLY male only? I remember that Vierna joined them for a time- before Drizzt ended up killing her, that is....
quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
Have you ever noticed that nothing is male only or male dominated? (bold added)
The Q was about male-only or male-dominated--not just male-only.
(Bregan D'aerthe, BTW, is often described as a "brotherhood", FWIW.)
Oh yeah--and what do we know about the current goings-on of the Jaezred Chaulssin?
D'oh! And there's always Mithral Hall... |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 17 Apr 2013 03:15:07 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 04:03:12
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| I will echo that I would love to find a GOOD (or at least not evil) organization of men...I'm growing somewhat tired of all male organizations being "Brotherhoods of Evil" or what have you. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 04:27:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I will echo that I would love to find a GOOD (or at least not evil) organization of men...I'm growing somewhat tired of all male organizations being "Brotherhoods of Evil" or what have you.
Well, duh, if they admitted women, they couldn't call themselves a Brotherhood!   |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 08:09:02
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| They could always be a Sisterhood of Evil. :P |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 09:42:03
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There's the durthans for that, the Sisterhood of Evil Witches. Though sadly, even they were obliterated. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 11:55:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Venger
They could always be a Sisterhood of Evil. :P
AKA Lolth's church. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 16:10:01
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Alfalfa and Spanky got temporary control of WotC during 4e development, and the He-man Women-haters club rules were fostered onto the Realms.
Since most of that club sees to have 'gone elsewhere', we can only hope that some common sense can return. Chicks in-power are cool...
...especially when they wear leather.
*Grammatical correction |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Apr 2013 18:38:18 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 16:18:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Alfalfa and Spanky got temporary control of WotC during 4e development, and the He-man Women-haters club rules were fostered onto the Realms.
I know you're being snarky, but was there really a concerted effort to get rid of women in the 4E Realms?
Methinks no.  |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 16:42:37
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Not all women, just most of them who are not Lolth’s pets. And it’s not that there are many of them anyway. The Realms’ women, evil and good alike, are hardly given the spotlight in any editions. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 16:43:08
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I was actually making light of the situation... I guess I missed my mark.
I am not saying it was done on-purpose. In fact, if what I 'think' is true, if they realized they were doing it, they would have stopped because of the backlash (because the final product did make them look very bad, on several fronts... the Mezro culture, for example). In the end, 4eFR looks like something that would have been produced in the 70's - a game focused on 'white, anglo-saxon males'. It was probably a business blunder based on marketing and demographics, but in this day & age that stuff really needs to be thrown out the window. All it does is focus on the customer-base you already have.
Paizo went completely the other route and look where it took them. Sometimes its not the game-rules that need to be re-written, its the RW rules.
The fact that they are doing an 'open playtest', and actually seeking out people's opinions in several media means that the 'closed room' way of development used in 4e is gone, and we should all be thankful of that. You ever see those video where a bunch of stupid people do a REALLY stupid thing, and you ask yourself, "what the hell were they THINKING?" Thats what happens when you have a very small group of people - who are all close friends - coming up with ideas. They are so busy slapping each other on the back and having a good time no-one stops to even ask, "is this truly a good idea?". They just convince themselves it is.
And yes, I am indeed saying that 4e was victim of 'mob mentality', with a VERY small mob. The smaller the group, the worse the ideas can get. No-one set out to do any of that on purpose... it just sort of 'arrived there'. For instance, since most of those powerful females were Harpers, or Harper-related, they wound-up getting canned during the 'great Harper purge' (including Chosen), which was an knee-jerk reaction caused by non-fans complaints about that group 'ruining their fun'. Females being ousted from the setting was a side-effect of other things in-play at that time. It happens. This is why I had made a point awhile back about how some of the new concept art might be construed - we don't want them making those same mistakes again. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Apr 2013 17:16:32 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 17:54:29
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I think people misconstrue the paucity of 4E FR lore relative to the three previous editions of the game with a lack of female characters.
I'm given to understand that for some people it's not that female characters do or don't exist, it's that these characters aren't seen in "important" places in the Realms, though I wonder how that thought can even be constructed, given the lore we have that does cover more popular areas of the Realms, and if a place hasn't been covered, you can't assume there are no females of power or influence there.
Regarding the 4E FRCG: to me it hardly qualifies as a males-only book. Consider:
Page 17 of the book tells us the leader of Loudwater is a woman.
Page 88, one of the two Simbarchs mentioned in the Aglarond section is a woman.
Page 89, Akanul: lead by Queen Arathane.
Page 101, Chessenta: ruled by the Warlord Shala Karanok.
Page 112: Shadowdale is ruled by Lady Addee Ulphor.
Page 122: In Elfharrow, the Abn'dak Tribe is led by a female chieftan named Seaspark.
Page 126: Erlkazar is secretly ruled by Saestra Karanok.
Page 132: Evermeet is governed by a Royal Council, which includes female members, including (but no limited to) Selsharra Durothil.
Page 146: the elf lady Gaerradh, wife of Methrammar, has been suggested as a replacement for her husband as leader of Luruar (the Silver Marches).
Page 153: Lady Erliza Daressin is the Viceroy of Westphal, rules over the island of Snowdown in the name of Amn.
Page 156: Myth Drannor is ruled by Coronal Ilselve Miritar, daughter of Seiveril Miritar.
Page 168: The Wychlaran hold great power in Rashemen and can remove Iron Lord Mangan Uruk should they so choose.
Page 178: Tethyr is ruled by Queen Anais. Her chief rival up until recently was not a man, but her half-sister Evonne Linden.
One shouldn't assume the rest of the FRCG is males only. There are many listings for councils, circles, etc., but that don't go into further detail.
Since the FRCG hit the shelves we've gotten a lot more lore and that lore is filled with female characters. It's just taken some time is all. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 22:04:48
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Can we please not use the 'white Anglo Saxon male' thing? It's really insulting to my people, especially when people think that men who are from Western/Northern European backgrounds act the way that people are implying because it's entirely false and is a really (not calling anyone ignorant, just commenting on the act itself) ignorant when people perpetuate that stereotype.
Anyway, I remember reading the the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide for 4e and thinking that there were a lot of female rulers of places (Akanul; I believe Aglarond is ruled by a woman; High Imaskar; being but a few). It got to the point where I actually looked for the male rulers and didn't really find any.
As for female lead characters, I remember a bunch of them as well. In the Chosen of Nendawen series, there's Hweilen, there's also this series about a woman having to do with poison or something as well as Ed's Storm Silverhand and other characters. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 22:22:48
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I know what I say and what I mean sometimes gets very convoluted, but I beleve we are on the same page; I AGREE its very ignorant to stereotype people, and its also just as ignorant for companies to target their products to such groups. Instead of trying to get more of the same folk buying their product, they need to ask themselves, "how can we get those folks not buying our product to buy it?" Thats what Paizo did.
Targeting ad-campaigns at specific demographics is an outdated concept, and dates back to the 50's, 60's, and 70's. What is does is cause premature 'maximum saturation' of a product/brand, and quite frankly, in this day-and-age, it just doesn't work anymore. We live on a world where there are now trans-gender high-schools. People are no longer buying those things they were expected to buy, they are buying what they like. We are no longer 'groups', we are the human race, and we've become globalized.
Some of the best RPers I ever played with were female, going all the way back to when I first started playing (in D&D's stone-age). They need to realize that their past thinking is not only obsolete, it was wrong to begin with. The settings that sell best are the ones with the most diversity... worlds just like our real one. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Apr 2013 22:24:29 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2013 : 23:00:10
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| Despite being female, the lack of lead female characters doesn't bother me. I like male characters. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2013 : 08:00:24
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I remember having this discussion back when 4E came out, but the discussion was about female deities. I actually went to the FRCG and did a count and came up with a near equal number of female to male deities. To be exact it was 19 male deities and 18 female deities listed in the FRCG. (Which implies to me that someone over at WotC was counting, because they REALLY shrank down the deities list by literally wiping out the racial pantheons.)
I largely agree that there aren't enough 'uber iconic' female characters of the setting. When most people think of characters in the Realms, they're mostly picturing either Drizzt or Elminster. So, it's a pretty small club. Although, I think Erevis Cale might be inching his way up into the same 'uber iconic' slot.
I believe the Seven Sisters collectively put themselves into one of the 'uber iconic' slots, but since most of them were axed or greatly depowered it left somewhat of a perceived void. However, I think that's just a perception, and not necessarily reality. There are plenty of prominent females in the setting as Jeremy points out; the issue is that none of them command enough gravitas to be associated with the setting in the same way a Drizzt or an Elminster is...
Which is why I would love to see WotC make a concerted effort to have a strong female character created to fill such a role. I don't even think the Seven Sisters individually could fill the 'uber iconic' role; only when taken collectively could they accomplish it.
My vote is for a female character who is strongly religious. We don't see a lot of religious characters in the Realms, and in the real world religious leadership is still very much considered a male dominated field. In fact, some actively work to exclude females. So seeing a prominent female in the Realms who is a cleric, can really highlight the differences between how things work in the real world vs the Realms.
I'd also vote for her to be a cleric of Torm. He is a more militarized deity, as well as being lawful good. This opens up interesting opportunities to also show how the Realms is different than the real world. For example, in the Realms being a good girl isn't associated with virginity or chastity. Nor is it associated with finding yourself a good man to settle down with and take care of you. Neither is it associated with being 100% straight.
So, in my mind I'm kinda picturing a character similar to Alusair Obarskyr with a nice healthy dose of Richard the Lionheart. Though motivated less by adventure than Alusair, and perhaps more by ambition within the Tormite faith. She could revel in leading people into battle, and spreading the glory of Torm at the point of the sword. Pointing her toward demon controlled Impiltur, for example, would be a good idea. Or sending her up against the Shades in battle and having her fight a crusade in Sembia. Or putting her up against Thay's legions of undead.
I see her as a character who at various points in her life, has romantic and sexual relationships with both men and women, but lacks the commitment needed to settle down... she's too married to her faith, and her own ambitions. She'd feel called by a deity, and thus have little time for matters of the heart. So her relationships would be short and fleeting, but often very intense for their duration. These relationships would be known openly, and accepted without punishment or condescension - simply because this type of behavior really isn't that abhorrent in the Realms.
And if we really wanted to cause some heads to explode, we could give her the backstory of her grandparents being Rashemi immigrants who fled Thay during Szass Tam's take over. So, not only would she be the child of an immigrant family, but she'd be a strong black female leading character, who is a prominent member of the leadership of her faith, someone who is sexually liberated, and a woman who actually knows how both to wage war and fight. (Has there ever been a really strong black female character who was a lead character in a fantasy novel?) |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2013 : 01:19:57
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| Has everyone seemingly forgotten about Liriel Baenre? I did forget about her, but just remembered her. She's not an uber power, but very much a main character. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2013 : 03:20:30
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Okay, but are they REALLY male only? I remember that Vierna joined them for a time- before Drizzt ended up killing her, that is....
quote:
Originally posted by Aryalómë
Have you ever noticed that nothing is male only or male dominated? (bold added)
The Q was about male-only or male-dominated--not just male-only.
(Bregan D'aerthe, BTW, is often described as a "brotherhood", FWIW.)
Oh yeah--and what do we know about the current goings-on of the Jaezred Chaulssin?
D'oh! And there's always Mithral Hall...
Don't think Mithril Hall even qualifies, BEAST. It's a dwarven CITY. In other words, I'm betting there are PLENTY of dwarf women there. Though I can understand your confusion- it's the beards, LOL!!! |
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Why do we suddenly lack female leads?
