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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 02:04:31
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Hey was wondering if anyone had any knowledge or places to read up on Mechanical Mythals? Planning an event, but well have some hardcore FR buffs in my group, and not sure if true or someone just pulling hopeful knowledge from unlit areas. The FR wiki has such things listed for Lathan, but being unsourced, so being broad and undeclared. Anyone willing to help ?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 02:41:06
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I've never heard of a mechanical mythal...
It does make me ponder the idea of a mechanikal mythal, but since the Realms doesn't have mechanika, that's not really a discussion I'm going to launch at this time.  |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 02:53:22
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Well this is yanked from the wiki that I am referencing
Mechanical Mythal
Mythal type effects achieved through technology, and divine magic. Such systems are not subject to corruption, or weakening due to the frequent deaths of Mystra and are viewed by some as an attempt by the Deities of Knowledge and Invention to safeguard their worshippers from another Spellplague.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Mythal
but otherwise, has no reference source. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 05:37:50
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Well this is yanked from the wiki that I am referencing
Mechanical Mythal
Mythal type effects achieved through technology, and divine magic. Such systems are not subject to corruption, or weakening due to the frequent deaths of Mystra and are viewed by some as an attempt by the Deities of Knowledge and Invention to safeguard their worshippers from another Spellplague.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Mythal
but otherwise, has no reference source.
If it's from a wiki site, and has no references, it is extremely likely that it's homebrew.
I don't know of anything mechanical in the Realms that generates a magical effect, much less something the scope of a mythal.
Even going with the Iron Kingdoms mechanika idea, I'd expect a machine the size of several city blocks to do this, and that machine would have to be constantly maintained by teams of mechaniks and bodgers. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Dec 2012 05:38:59 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 06:36:34
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Like everyone else, I can't find any information on a mechanical mythal. However, my advice is ignore canon and go with what works for your Realms. There is very little detail on Lantan to my knowledge, so anything is possible.
Don't let yourself be saddled with canon issues - it's a game, you should be having fun. If you have a canon lawyer in your group, then you should deal with that person the same way you deal with a rules lawyer.
My own Lantan differs considerably from canon, and it has its own Mythallar that is so powerful that it extends its reach across Lantan's main island as well as the surrounding islands. It's not based on arcane magic, and it's fueled by... well... let's just say my Lantan is a place of dark and horrible secrets. 
I wanted to create a place where I could have some Magitech and Dungeon Punk in my Realms, but I didn't want it spreading. A non-reproducible Mythallar worked wonderfully - ensuring that it all stayed confined to Lantan and the surrounding islands. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 09:13:13
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| I've never heard of one. However, thinking about this from our world perspective could help define things. Nikola Tesla was working on a system in which he could create a machine that generated electricity in a certain area and could wirelessly power any suitably adapted devices within this field. Maybe they have a "mythal" or basically a field in which electricity works like this. I wouldn't recommend anything like a supercomputer, but powering simple motors that do repeated movement (think fans, milling wheels, saws, conveyor belts, drill press, portable drill, portable screwdriver, something that repeatedly hammers in one spot for say blacksmiths, etc...). I'd recommend AGAINST the light bulb, as the level of effort versus the continual flame spell wouldn't make sense (and in a failure scenario there are already alchemical devices and simple torches/lanterns). The concept should not be wide spread, even in Lantan, and I'd recommend that the range of such a device not be miles but rather yards and it should have some special energy source (maybe its hooked to a dam or the heart of a volcano or a pipeline to natural gas). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 14:43:54
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Whether homebrew or not (and I agree thats its HIGHLY likely it is), I think a mecha-mythal would create a field that allowed one to bypass Ao's decree against tech in Realmspace. The mythal itself would be a steampunkish affair that combined magic and tech, and the result would be to allow tech in Realmspace (although I still wouldn't make it very advanced).
Just my 2¢. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Dec 2012 14:45:04 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 15:56:58
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| Oh, and on the idea I presented above with an "electrical mythal"... I'd highly recommend that whoever managed to set it up may have figured out how to harness the electricity to use with a motor like I mentioned. However, I'd also highly recommend something be put in like "the creator has tried to create other mythals in other places and move his creations there, which seems to actually have the effect of somehow destroying said devices, such that they do not work on the new mythal and when moved back to the original mythal they still will not function. In fact, when moved back, on occasion other devices have for some reason begun to quit functioning.". The scientific reason behind this might be that the creator doesn't understand that the current must be attuned to a specific rate (i.e. similar to how if you take a device designed for American voltage and plug it in in Europe you'll have a nice spark show), nor does he have the delicate tools necessary to achieve this level of detail consistently. He may have some molds he's created for this one specific mythal that seems to work over and over when creating new motors.... but he doesn't know how to make a new mythal that matches the existing mythal that he's created. Thus, this could be a great and wondrous mystery for the Lantanese. Perhaps they actually worship before the great Tesla coil which has entrapped lightning.... and maybe followers of Talos want to see this mythal destroyed for this exact reason. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2012 : 18:17:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Whether homebrew or not (and I agree thats its HIGHLY likely it is), I think a mecha-mythal would create a field that allowed one to bypass Ao's decree against tech in Realmspace. The mythal itself would be a steampunkish affair that combined magic and tech, and the result would be to allow tech in Realmspace (although I still wouldn't make it very advanced).
Just my 2¢.
So a mechanical mythal that uses technology to create a field that allows technology to work?
And there is no such decree from Ao. It is the nature of the universe itself that prevents electronics and such from working. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 01:28:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Whether homebrew or not (and I agree thats its HIGHLY likely it is), I think a mecha-mythal would create a field that allowed one to bypass Ao's decree against tech in Realmspace. The mythal itself would be a steampunkish affair that combined magic and tech, and the result would be to allow tech in Realmspace (although I still wouldn't make it very advanced).
Just my 2¢.
So a mechanical mythal that uses technology to create a field that allows technology to work?
And there is no such decree from Ao. It is the nature of the universe itself that prevents electronics and such from working.
It's been written into the Realms firmament since the 1e boxed set. As the Old Grey Box states:- "The physics of the Realms are slightly out of sync with the rest of the planes, so that gunpowder and many technological devices which operate on electronics do not function. Equivalent devices may be developed by player-characters. DMs judgment is advised as to what may be allowed into the world." [DM's Sourcebook of the Realms pg. 9]
...
Which would, essentially, heavily determine just how such a mechanical mythal would work in the Realms. Of course, this would only apply if the DM is sticking canonically to the Realmslore. Otherwise there are plenty of ways around it... and some of which could potentially build on existing lore. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 20:12:38
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So Ao is in charge of the Gods (which ostensibly also includes the primordials now), which in-turn embody the concepts of reality (know in technological spheres as 'physics'), and yet Ao does not have any say over the physics of the Crystal Sphere he is in charge of? 
If not him, then who else would have made Realmspace function that way? Obviously, other spheres allow tech.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So a mechanical mythal that uses technology to create a field that allows technology to work?
Yup. 
Steam-tech is allowed, IIRC, so the Mythal-device is very Steampunkish (a very complex yet Victorian-looking contraption), which then allows for a higher order of technology. You see, the problem is the electricity Quasi-elementals don't behave themselves, and the mecha-mythal actually just generates a field-effect that repels them, so electricity doesn't act erratically.
The hard part was just getting the Steam Quasi-elementals to behave. 
(Disclaimer: and of course, all of the above is HOMEBREW). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Dec 2012 20:14:28 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 20:28:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So Ao is in charge of the Gods (which ostensibly also includes the primordials now), which in-turn embody the concepts of reality (know in technological spheres as 'physics'), and yet Ao does not have any say over the physics of the Crystal Sphere he is in charge of?
It doesn't matter who controls what -- it's all affected by physics. The gods control things that are controlled by physics -- they don't control the physics themselves.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 20:56:01
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Although, magic can obviously subvert physics...
But yeah, I'm on Sage's and Wooly's side here. I didn't want to tamper with the underlying premise that many modern technological devices didn't work in the Realms. I also didn't want what was going on in Lantan to be replicated elsewhere. After all, if Lantan is successful at creating a Mythallar or a Mythal without magic - that's inevitably going to spread.
I got around this problem in my Realms by creating a backstory that has Gond creating a trap and imprisoning another deity. (It is debated which deity he imprisoned.) He then reforged that deity into something else. (I've never gone into detail about what that something else looked like...)
The Lantana then decided to experiment to see if they could tap into the energy of the imprisoned deity, and did so through the use of arcane magic and technology. They then created the first crude magi-tech mythallar.
Over time they kept running into 'energy limitations' from the mythallar, which required them to repeatedly go back, revise and upgrade the design. This eventually led to them using the mythallar's own energy to construct a new and improved mythallar, completely disabling the old arcane constructed mythallar upon completion. The end result? The Lantana no longer rely on arcane magic; all of their magi-tech draws upon the energy from their mythallar.
Unfortunately, even this was not enough. Their society and culture continued to grow more and more dependent upon their magi-tech (in the same way we're dependent upon our technology and electricity in the real world). Continued improvements and upgrades were yielding diminishing returns, and they had to resort to... alternative... methods of fueling their mythallar.
This led Lantan down the path that led them to where they are today...
The point? Unless you have a reforged and imprisoned deity to draw energy from you can't reconstruct Lantan's mythallar elsewhere. Additionally, it means their magi-tech isn't going to spread to the mainland, and it keeps everything nicely isolated on a remote island. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 21:14:40
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Despite my arguments for it (the tech-mythal), I would never use such in any of my FR games. In fact, technology is one of the few things I truly hate about Golarion. Never cared for tinker gnomes nor any of the concepts related to them (including their port into Lantan). I just thought it would be an interesting mental exercise to create a device that allowed tech to operate within Realmspace.
I am toying with the idea of borrowing some tech from the His Dark Materials (Golden Compass) series - I love the whole concept of 'Anbaric Energy' - for my homebrew world. Not sure, though - right now its borderline (similar to how it is in Warcraft or WH, but not as Steampunkish as it is in Warmachine or Girl Genius). I think that flavor ('dark Victorian') would work well in Ravenloft, but not in the Realms. The problem is, what I like reading about isn't necessarily the same kinds of settings I enjoy running. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Dec 2012 21:16:45 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2012 : 22:27:49
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Yeah, my Lantan is pretty much a setting all unto itself. It has very few if any interactions with the mainland. (That's pretty much how it's run in canon anyway.)
It's also less steampunk, and more cyberpunk (where the technology is magi-tech), which in turn far outstrips even what we can do with technology in our world. On the surface it appears Utopian by middle American standards. They engage in Chinese style pro-growth policies, and the government goes out of its way to help take care of the citizens basic needs.
However, the truth is that they're a theocratic republic like Iran, with one party rule, where all the real power rests in the hands of the Church of Gond (and really the High Artificer). The elected leaders are just fall people for when the Church of Gond's plans occasionally backfire, and they have to step in and set things right. So publicly the church looks like it's on the side of the people, even though they're really the puppet master pulling all the strings.
When you really start pulling back the curtain, you begin to understand the motivations of the Church of Gond. They're actively striving to support the people of Lantan's way of life, but it is fundamentally unsustainable. So, they've had to engage in some questionable practices, which has ultimately led Lantan down a dark path of necessity... and the further they go down that path, the deeper the hole they dig themselves into. Yet, turning back isn't an option as, at this point, turning back would result in far worse consequences than moving forward.
Lantan has been under effective martial law, since they went through a rather horrific civil war, a war in which pretty much everyone lost. As a consequence over time Lantan has evolved more and more into a paranoid North Korean style dystopian police state. Even though it may not appear that way on the surface.
Every action taken by the Church of Gond has seemingly been the lesser of two evils, but every action they take inevitably puts them deeper into the same hole that forced them to choose the lesser of two evils in the first place...
Everything they've built - absolutely everything - is based around the functioning of their Mythallar. The moment it no longer functions Lantan collapses into chaos and death.
Most people will starve and die of dehydration. The water purification system will cease to function, so all the water they're pulling from the sea will stop at once. Pretty much no one knows how to farm or grow food, because most menial and mundane tasks such as that are handled by animatrons. Soon after the mythallar shuts down the animatrons power core will cease to function; deactivating.
And fleeing won't do much good, because the trams will have shut down, leaving you pretty much trapped in whatever ward you happen to be in at the moment. You could theoretically try to escape through the tram tunnels though...
Of course, you'd have to be quick, because once the abominations in the Old City realize the animatrons and defense functions no longer work, they're heading for those same tunnels and are coming enmass... which pretty much means all of Lantan - even those that escape, will be hunted down by the abominations to be devoured... and gods have mercy on the mainland should one of those things find a way off the island... It would almost be as bad as releasing the Virus.
So yeah, fun times in my Lantan. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2012 : 01:46:45
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If I were to explore the possibility of a mechanical mythal on Lantan, I'd probably suggest that experimentation on the now defunct mythal of Myth Iiscar was the basis for it.
Let's remember that this particular mythal once allowed its inhabitants to fly, though it was destroyed at some point. Magic of Faerūn notes that the Lantanese have never revealed any hints about its location... which suggests they either don't know or are very good at keeping it's location a secret.
Regardless, who's to say that the technologically innovative humans and gnomes of Lantan hadn't already experimented with ways of establishing a mechanically powered contraption that could potentially re-power the mythal and provide the impetus for the ancient city to fly once again?
There's a lot of potential here -- especially if a DM were to exploit the already established nature of the existing [and lost/destroyed] mythal of Myth Iiscar. |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2012 : 15:01:53
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I'm now thinking (thanks to Sage) that perhaps the Mythal was restarted somehow using something that taps into the same power as the plane of Mechanus (which is supposedly the 'world machine' that keeps the universe chuggin' along).
If a plane-sized machine is capable of that, then it stands to reason (in a D&D/fantasy universe) that a machine capable of 'capturing' magical (or other) energies should be possible.
And now I am once-again thinking about the Well World series (in which a Jupiter-sized planet is really the super-computer that keeps the universe 'running', a'la The Matrix.) In that series humans created a mini-version of that called 'Obie' (merely moon-sized). I'm picturing the mecha-mythal being something like that - a mini-version of the Mechanus Engine. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2012 : 16:03:55
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| Well, if Myth Iiscar was located on Lantan, I'd definitely try to restart it. The plane of Mechanus would be a good idea, but it doesn't exist in the FR cosmology. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2012 : 16:57:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Well, if Myth Iiscar was located on Lantan, I'd definitely try to restart it. The plane of Mechanus would be a good idea, but it doesn't exist in the FR cosmology.
Sure it does. Just not in post-2E cosmology. My Realms, on the other hand, does exist in the 2E cosmology. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2012 : 01:54:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Well, if Myth Iiscar was located on Lantan, I'd definitely try to restart it. The plane of Mechanus would be a good idea, but it doesn't exist in the FR cosmology.
As Wooly notes, that depends on which cosmological framework you're using to support the structure of the outer planes in the Realms.
...
I like the idea of connecting this concept for a mechanical mythal to Mechanus. Perhaps we could borrow from EBERRON, and suggest that there's a kind of planar bleeding [perhaps as a result of a coterminous relationship between Mechanus and the Prime Material Plane of Toril] of highly organised plane energy from Mechanus pouring right into a part of the ruins of Myth Iiscar. The humans and gnomes of Lantan -- after having found this planar bleed -- have then harnessed this energy and directed it toward powering the defunct mythal -- rejuvenating it in unexpected, and yet spectacular, ways. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2012 : 19:34:46
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I offer a few "canon" facts to broaden the possibilities.
First - mechanical/technological equivalents for other advanced magical devices certainly exist in canon. Such fantastic things as spelljammer helms, floating cities, "power armor", robots and cyborgs and golems, nonmagical talking swords, Blackmoor junk, and various legendary artifacts such as the Machine of Lum the Mad. Elminster has offhandedly commented upon Gondsmen "stealing" technological inspirations from our world, so pretty much anything seems possible.
Second - mythals seem to be an invention of the elves, elves originally arrived in the Realms from elsewhere, elves are notorious for travelling (being found) on many other worlds, and in some cases elves have apparently had high-technology civilzations. Unless mythals are unique to Realms (unique in terms of magical or "planar" properties of Abeir-Toril or decree of the god-sorts of the Realms) they probably exist on many other worlds, in a variety of other forms, some of which could be partially or completely mechanical/technological.
Third - Netherese archwizards had epic-level magics which effectively (if imperfectly) emulated or duplicated mythals. Not true mythals, but not too far off either. The important detail here being that these fellows were non-elves (humans, in fact) ... so it seems entirely possible for mythal-level stuff to be invented by non-elves (humans) of other worlds. And we already know that humans have some penchant for technology ... although dwarves and gnomes are said to have greater technological capacities ... I would argue that the Anauroch, Sharn Wall, Dread Rings in Thay, etc, are all lasting great magical things of mythal-like power which were not created in mythal-like fashion.
To me it seems perfectly plausible that elves and humans of other worlds might collaborate in producing counterparts to Realms mythals, using any sort of unique hybrid of magical and (super)natural and technological components. Why not have some infernal inspiration offered by fiends? Or say the Githyanki have psionic/mechanical mythals on their largest Astral cities? |
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Edited by - Ayrik on 30 Dec 2012 19:49:17 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 03:32:42
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Mechanical mythals? What for? There are already mythallars. Besides, as Ed said, electronics doesn't work in the Realms. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 04:16:59
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Many machines can be built without electronics. I'm assuming "mechanical" is meant to convey "technological" or "artificial". I don't personally see any reason "mythals" can't function by means of Realms science, although I'll admit that the notion of generations of dwarves shovelling coal into the hungry furnaces of their steam-powered mine-pumping mythals does seem a little odd. But why should only those smirking elves always get all the best toys?
And would it be impossible for a secret Githyanki fortress to apply some sort of psionic mythal which cloaks their presence or detects/harms illithids or functions as some sort of astral beacon? Perhaps the great pyramids of Mulhorand focus the faith of the masses in a divine mythal which protects the entombed dead from desecration? Imagine those pesky daemonfey/faer'ri having a fiendspawned mythal-gate which is fueled by vile deeds and doomed souls. Just to name a few non-"magic" mythal-like possibilities.
Although I do agree, the Netherese mythallars are (in my mind) a sort of magical engine which somehow "artificially" draws power from the Weave and converts it into an output of useful "quasimagical" energy. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 04:35:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
But why should only those smirking elves always get all the best toys?
They do? I doubt that... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 04:55:31
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| Well, I digress a little. But it seems to be a common theme in Realmslore for non-elf races who manage to obtain top-tier stuff to invariably get themselves blown up one way or another. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 05:14:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Mechanical mythals? What for? There are already mythallars. Besides, as Ed said, electronics doesn't work in the Realms.
You can't really compare the concept of a mechanical mythal with that of a mythallar. Generally, a mythallar will simply promote the continued use of quasi-magical items within the scope of their domain. Whereas mythals can often have an extensive range of effects and abilities to grant upon those who reside beneath them. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 05:28:35
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Mechanical mythals? What for? There are already mythallars. Besides, as Ed said, electronics doesn't work in the Realms.
You can't really compare the concept of a mechanical mythal with that of a mythallar. Generally, a mythallar will simply promote the continued use of quasi-magical items within the scope of their domain. Whereas mythals can often have an extensive range of effects and abilities to grant upon those who reside beneath them.
It's just one of the functions of the mythallars, the original and basic. As evidenced in Shadowrealm, a mythallar can be used to fuel its creator's spells. Also, a mythallar can be controlled to transmit a considerable amount magic across distances, well beyond the enclave where it's placed. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 09:45:03
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Thats true, the mythallar of Shade enclave was drawn upon by Telamont to bind the Lord of Cania, though if it continued the city would have probably fell.
Due to its unique sentience, the mythallar of Sakkors could be used to transmit its powers to Rivalen's sword to help him defeat the green dragon attacking Selgaunt.
A mythallar can be used to do many things besides lifting a city and powering magic items, but it has to be practical at least for the situation at hand. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Mechanical Mythals?
