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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2012 :  02:41:10  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I am at a sticking point on a matter: I would like to have a gentleman I've recently met online do some contracted work for me; but I don't want him, or ME, to get in trouble in any way.

I want to re-create Zhentil Keep...but would it be wrong of me to have it done via contract payment to someone? Does that cross some no-no boundry?

Thanks for any input...but I have designs to do some extensive re-works on several city maps. The maps I have come across simply do not match the written words I've found in numerous places.

Things such as Hillsfar being "multiple walled" and other details.

So what legal pitfalls should I be wary of?

Not sure if this is in the right shelf...so move it should it be in the wrong part of the scrolls!

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!

Kentinal
Great Reader

4684 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2012 :  03:06:46  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This indeed a major legal IP issue I would think. If you want to build IP of WotC it clearly is a problem, even if you do not pay for it. If you do such for personal use or home game it likely would not be a problem for you, if you intend however to put such improved maps on the web there clearly can be a problem.

I can understand fixing the maps as lore has changed, however using anything WotC or TSR has copyrighted or trademarked is a violation of law unless you get permission from WotC to do so.

As to the paid person, if outside the US and treaties, that person might be safe from breaking law as some laws do not reach beyond borders. I however would suspect using IP of WotC in many nations clearly would be a legal issue. Europe clearly should not be legal, China the artist likely can do anything, and so on.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2012 :  04:24:03  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It 'might' fall into the category of 'derivative work', especially if you are hiring someone to create an original piece (their own art... not what I do) that you want for your own, personal use. So long as you and he keep it a private matter, I don't see a problem. If you were to 'accidentally' let it slip out (you know... you send it to someone, who then sends it someone else, and it winds up on the web), I wonder, who, if anyone, gets in trouble for that? My thoughts on the matter is that the piece is yours - you commissioned it, and you own it (but that does not give you ownership rights to anything represented). As far as I know, neither one of you could get in trouble unless either of you (or some third party) tried to sell copies of it. I don't own the Empire State Building, but I can hire someone to paint a picture of it.

The only real shame about that is that you won't be able to share it with everyone. I did one like that....

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2012 :  07:03:50  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm mostly in agreement with Markus. I think it counts as a derivative work; however I disagree with him on sharing it.

I think you could legally commission someone to do the type of work you're talking about for your home campaign. Under the banner of it being a derivative work intended primarily for personal use, you could post it online to show your work to others.

The likelihood of this causing you any problems is very small. I doubt Candlekeep would host it, due to the prevailing fear of earning the ire of WotC lawyers. However, you could host it off sight and probably share it via a link.

So long as you aren't trying to make money from the work, you should be fine.

The worst case scenario here is that someone from WotC contacts you with a Cease and Desist letter. If they feel their IP is threatened by what you're doing, they aren't going to jump immediately to a lawsuit. This is true even if you're selling the derivative work for a profit.

So, if you get a Cease and Desist letter you simply take it down. No harm, no foul. Sure, it sucks that you can't share it, but of course this is the internet. By the time that happens, pretty much everyone has copied everything to their hard drive.

For example, I love the maps Markus' creates. So whenever I notice he's got a new one posted, I download it and put it in my always growing FR Map folder. I try to save every FR map I come across, both fan created and official. If WotC were to one day decide they didn't like what Markus was doing, and force him to take down his maps - I'd still have copies.

So, my advice is to go ahead and do it. The worst that would happen is that you'd receive a letter. So long as you comply with what WotC asks of you, it wouldn't go any further than that... and all they'd ask is for you to take it down. The likelihood of you receiving a C&D? Virtually nil.
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Kyrel
Learned Scribe

151 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2012 :  20:10:28  Show Profile  Visit Kyrel's Homepage Send Kyrel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm with Aldrick on this one. As long as you don't intend to use the artwork to sell copies of it under the label of "Zentil Keep", I have a hard time imagining what WotC should be able to complain about. Especially if you are also putting in changes to the map, compared with the official ones.

As for the artist, I can't imagine how it should be a problem for him either, unless you ask him to break some contract he's signed.

And as Aldrick says, the worst thing that is really liable to happen, is that you receive a C&D letter. Unless you've been selling the stuff and obviously infringing on WotC's IP, trademark etc. In such a case you might be slapped with a lawsuit. But I'd give better odds on the Earth ending on Dec. 21st this year, than that happening.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2012 :  20:21:58  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Except for one thing - THE ARTIST did indeed make money off of WotC's IP, which is why I would say it should be kept private. A commissioned piece for one person's use is quite different then someone making money off of a map and it ending up on the internet.

Once it goes public it falls into a different level of the law - someone made money off their IP and it is inside the public domain, which makes them legally obligated to defend their IP.

Private = Okay. Public usage but FREE = okay. Profit + public = big trouble. Thats just IMO, I am no lawyer (but my GF is... I should ask her). Then again, I know exactly what she would say - she would always recommend getting permission first for anything (because if there was ANY trouble down the line, SHE could get sued for giving bad advice). This is one of those infamous "don't ask, don't tell" situations. Can you do this legally? NO. Can you do this this and get away with it? YES. The idea is to (quite literally) 'stay off the map'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Dec 2012 20:22:23
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2012 :  00:09:23  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't really think that there is a lawyer employed by WotC whose primary job is to troll the internet in search for fan created derivative work and shut it down with C&D letters. Just sayin'.

WotC definitely has an invested interest in protecting their IP, but so long as someone isn't actively seeking to do them harm or undermine their IP; then I doubt WotC would even bother with a C&D.

There are really only two circumstances that I foresee this happening. The first involves someone trying to sell the work. For example, Dalor commissions the work and then attempts to sell it. That could spur WotC to send a C&D - even in the case Dalor actually makes a profit and good money off it (which I highly doubt would happen no matter how awesome it is); he is still likely only to receive a C&D rather than a lawsuit.

The second involves Dalor (or someone else) attempting to create some sort of rivalry with WotC. In other words, Dalor begins to commission work and then market it as the 'official' stuff, even as he gives it away for free. Or, alternatively, large numbers of people begin to disregard the official work for the derivative work. This is under the assumption that he's giving it away for free. Again, in this case the only likely outcome is a C&D letter.

The ways to avoid this, I would argue, would be to make it very clear that the Forgotten Realms is copyrighted and owned by WotC. Make it very clear that you're not intending to infringe upon their work, and that what you're providing is intended primarily for personal use.

As for the artist, I don't think WotC really has a leg to stand on to prevent him from taking the commission. Dalor is paying him for the labor; the artist doesn't own the artwork (Dalor would since he paid for it). Thus, the artist likely wouldn't be targeted with a C&D. The exception to this would be if the artist did the map, and then continued to try and sell copies.

However, it's possible that such a move might be legal - it's iffy, though. Basically, I don't think it would be any different from the fact that Wikipedia or the FRWiki works with tons of copyrighted information and places it online. They're able to do this because WotC only owns the words; so long as you're rewording it and not engaging in plagiarism it's legal.

What you do differently is that you're copying both the styles and the symbols used on the official WotC maps. They own those, and thus they might have some legal ground to shut your maps down. However, if you created your own symbols and style and used those instead, I think it would count as a sufficiently derivative work as to be in the clear.

It's slightly more debatable, since you do world maps, but Dalor is focusing on local maps; which may or may not have a WotC equivalent, and even if they did his goal seems to be to create one that deviates from the ones presented. (Because he wants to make them more accurate with the lore; making them an updated version.)

That's just my 2 cents though. You're right that if you ask a lawyer the answer is always going to be to ask for permission, and if you ask for permission you're likely not to get it. Not because WotC doesn't want you to do it, but because it could create problems down the road if they need to legitimately take someone to court. Pretty much, it works by turning a blind eye to what is going on, because in the end fan created work like what Dalor is proposing, and work like you do, ends up helping and not hurting WotC. It keeps people interested and engaged with their products... and it's always bad PR to go after the fans.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2012 :  02:24:59  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So essentially, I should hire the fella to make maps of my own World of Aerk, over-pay him to make him really happy...then he might suggest that he wouldn't mind doing free maps of the cities of the Forgotten Realms that I would love to see done just because he likes doing business with me so much...

Got it.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4684 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2012 :  03:50:57  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

So essentially, I should hire the fella to make maps of my own World of Aerk, over-pay him to make him really happy...then he might suggest that he wouldn't mind doing free maps of the cities of the Forgotten Realms that I would love to see done just because he likes doing business with me so much...

Got it.



Well the laws involved are complicated, especially when "Fair Use" is part of it. You clearly can map a city between Waterdeep and Neverwinter, that would not directly infringe of IP of WotC. Paying someone to map such a map should not be a problem.
Even though using various IP, lore updates and existing maps to build an updated map even without paying for the work clearly is a concern. You might be able to argue Fair Use if you do not sell or widely distribute it.
It is true WotC generally does not go after fan products, TSR got burned a little hard on that until they adjusted their internet policy. That cease and desist orders have not been issued in various cases does not mean you are protected from such precedence. Even time an infringement is detected it is evaluated then action taken.
I have no idea of what WotC would do about the proposed maps, it could be do nothing up to demanding damage payments in the millions. Think about the Napster incident where the music industry went after one person for thousands of dollars because down loading things on the net as file sharing.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2012 :  05:15:38  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

I don't really think that there is a lawyer employed by WotC whose primary job is to troll the internet in search for fan created derivative work and shut it down with C&D letters. Just sayin'.

WotC definitely has an invested interest in protecting their IP, but so long as someone isn't actively seeking to do them harm or undermine their IP; then I doubt WotC would even bother with a C&D.


They don't need to look -- all they need is for someone to mention it to them. And WotC has shut down a site that wasn't actively seeking to do them harm -- the guy was asking for money to pay for hosting character sheets. It was clearly just to pay for hosting, and not for profit, but as soon as he asked for money, WotC shut him down.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2012 :  21:29:29  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

I don't really think that there is a lawyer employed by WotC whose primary job is to troll the internet in search for fan created derivative work and shut it down with C&D letters. Just sayin'.

WotC definitely has an invested interest in protecting their IP, but so long as someone isn't actively seeking to do them harm or undermine their IP; then I doubt WotC would even bother with a C&D.


They don't need to look -- all they need is for someone to mention it to them. And WotC has shut down a site that wasn't actively seeking to do them harm -- the guy was asking for money to pay for hosting character sheets. It was clearly just to pay for hosting, and not for profit, but as soon as he asked for money, WotC shut him down.



Sure, he was asking for money. WotC is going to jump on anyone who is trying to make money off their IP, and they should. They need to protect their IP, and you're crossing a red line when you try to use their IP to make money. You're basically forcing their hand.

Yet, at the end of the day what happened? He got a C&D letter and decided to shut the thing down.

Let's be honest here. Anyone who is worried about WotC suing them for millions of dollars over posting fan created content (whether it was commissioned or homemade) is stressing over nothing. What type of backlash would happen if WotC decided to go after Markus for posting his maps? Even a C&D letter to Markus would initiate a negative backlash against WotC which would probably cost them more than Markus ever could. Throw an actual lawsuit at him (even for $100), and I can guarantee you that people would start protesting. They would end up losing money because people would abandon their products - I know I would, for example. I don't want to support a company that goes after loyal members of the fan community.

The good news is that I don't think WotC wants to go after loyal members of the fan community either. So we're on the same page. They can't give permission, but they can - and actively do - turn a blind eye to things like this; with notable exceptions that I mentioned in previous posts... asking for money is the number one thing not to do, though.

Hell, there is a popular Realms site on the web that is in flagrant violation of copyright. They've copied entire sections word-for-word out of source books and posted it online. (In addition to copying and pasting lore content from the WotC website.) It's existed for years; WotC surely knows about it (if they use Google at all)... and it's still there.

If that website can exist, I'm pretty sure Dalor is safe with his non-canon maps of Zhentil Keep.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2012 :  21:33:00  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just wanted to add, the only reason I'm pushing this so hard, is because I don't want people to feel afraid to contribute fan created work. I love seeing what people come up with, whether I decide to use it or not.

As I'm a fan of the Realms; I like seeing what other fans are doing with the setting. I love seeing people contribute things, and I'm always worried that this focus on WotC-might-come-get-you places unnecessary cold water on people, ideas, and community creativity... because again, the worst that is going to happen is that you're going to receive a C&D letter.
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4684 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2012 :  22:19:58  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

... because again, the worst that is going to happen is that you're going to receive a C&D letter.



Odds are very good this is the likely outcome, TSR coming down too hard of web content suffered for it, though OTOH WotC opening gaming 3rd Edition did not appear to serve them as well as expected either.

4th Edition clearly 4th rules far more restrictive, we have no total idea of what 5th content rules will be.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2012 :  04:29:39  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

I don't really think that there is a lawyer employed by WotC whose primary job is to troll the internet in search for fan created derivative work and shut it down with C&D letters. Just sayin'.

WotC definitely has an invested interest in protecting their IP, but so long as someone isn't actively seeking to do them harm or undermine their IP; then I doubt WotC would even bother with a C&D.


They don't need to look -- all they need is for someone to mention it to them. And WotC has shut down a site that wasn't actively seeking to do them harm -- the guy was asking for money to pay for hosting character sheets. It was clearly just to pay for hosting, and not for profit, but as soon as he asked for money, WotC shut him down.



Sure, he was asking for money. WotC is going to jump on anyone who is trying to make money off their IP, and they should. They need to protect their IP, and you're crossing a red line when you try to use their IP to make money. You're basically forcing their hand.

Yet, at the end of the day what happened? He got a C&D letter and decided to shut the thing down.

Let's be honest here. Anyone who is worried about WotC suing them for millions of dollars over posting fan created content (whether it was commissioned or homemade) is stressing over nothing. What type of backlash would happen if WotC decided to go after Markus for posting his maps? Even a C&D letter to Markus would initiate a negative backlash against WotC which would probably cost them more than Markus ever could. Throw an actual lawsuit at him (even for $100), and I can guarantee you that people would start protesting. They would end up losing money because people would abandon their products - I know I would, for example. I don't want to support a company that goes after loyal members of the fan community.

The good news is that I don't think WotC wants to go after loyal members of the fan community either. So we're on the same page. They can't give permission, but they can - and actively do - turn a blind eye to things like this; with notable exceptions that I mentioned in previous posts... asking for money is the number one thing not to do, though.

Hell, there is a popular Realms site on the web that is in flagrant violation of copyright. They've copied entire sections word-for-word out of source books and posted it online. (In addition to copying and pasting lore content from the WotC website.) It's existed for years; WotC surely knows about it (if they use Google at all)... and it's still there.

If that website can exist, I'm pretty sure Dalor is safe with his non-canon maps of Zhentil Keep.




You seem to be missing my point. You said if someone wasn't trying to harm WotC, WotC wouldn't care. That guy hosting the character sheets wasn't trying to harm WotC -- but they still came down on him. And yeah, it ended with a C&D -- but if he'd decided to fight it, you know WotC would have thrown lawyers at him.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2012 :  13:32:32  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am with Aldrick on this, its a minuscule risk, I mean if you ignore a cease and desist letter you chances of being sued go up, but at the end of the day its just not worth WOTCs time and money to make a big deal out of a minor issue like this.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2012 :  15:57:46  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah, I see. I'm not 100% familiar with the circumstances, although I know of numerous places online that offer to host character sheets today. Some of these places gain money through various means, and WotC isn't going after them.

I'm not saying WotC would never go after anyone, for any reason. I'm just saying it's EXTREMELY unlikely, and if they did the only thing that's likely going to happen is a C&D letter.

I do want to point out, however, that it is just an assumption that WotC would have sent lawyers after him if he failed to comply. Sometimes, a C&D is used to intimidate for whatever reason. It does not naturally follow that a lawsuit is imminent if you fail to comply.

To give an example, I'd direct everyone's attention to this hilarious C&D sent by the National Pork Board to ThinkGeek. It was over their "Canned Unicorn Meat". That's right The National Pork Board sent a C&D over a fictitious product. No, ThinkGeek was not sued. Here is a link to the relevant post - it's hilarious.

While it's funny, the NPB was just acting to protect it's trademark: "The Other White Meat." It's very likely that they knew full well that Unicorns didn't exist, and what they were sending out was just a standard C&D to stake their claim on the Trademark. Was ThinkGeek ever in trouble of actually being sued? No. Yet, they still received a C&D letter.

I'm not saying people should ignore C&D letters. That would be highly foolish. I'm just pointing out that sometimes C&D letters are sent out even when the company in question has no intention of actually enforcing their threat of a lawsuit. There are sometimes ridiculous reasons to send them out, which end up being required by law if someone wants to protect their trademark / copyright. (The NPB vs ThinkGeek situation above being a good example.)

Obviously, though I'm no lawyer. So I want to conclude with some links to some stuff written by an actual intellectual property lawyer. Over at Loremaster Rob Bodine (known as Frylock) has written a number of interesting articles in relation to gaming and intellectual property.

Protection from Chaos, Parts I and II: Punishment for Copyright Infringement

Protection from Chaos, Part III: Hasbro, Inc. v. Clue Computing, Inc.

Protection from Chaos, Part IV: Fair Use

Protection from Chaos, Part V: To GSL, or Not to GSL?

Protection from Chaos, Part VI: Works for Hire

Protection from Chaos Part VII: Thumbnail Images

Protection from Chaos Part VIII: Intellectual Property Primer

Protection from Chaos, Part IX: For My Conversion of an Adventure, What May I Publish?

Protection from Chaos, Part X: Reality Check

Protection from Chaos Part XI: The D&D Next Online Playtest Agreement

I highly recommend reading them all, since they're interesting and Frylock obviously put a lot of work into them. Obviously, it doesn't constitute as legal advice in this particular situation, but it is highly interesting and enlightening nonetheless.
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Kyrel
Learned Scribe

151 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2012 :  15:59:52  Show Profile  Visit Kyrel's Homepage Send Kyrel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I actually have to disagree with you Thauranil. If WotC have first decided to bother to send a C&D letter, it'll be because they have decided that they need to do this, in order to protect and maintain their copyright etc. If they don't actively protect these rights, they are liable to loose them. If you ignore a C&D order, expect to have to go to court. Not because it's necessarily a good idea on an economic level, but because WotC might HAVE to on the legal level.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2012 :  16:36:09  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Correct - you never ignore a C&D. Even if there is absolutely NO financial gain to be had by them directly (as in my case - I don't have two nickels to rub together), they are still obligated to 'go after' anyone who uses their IP to generate money, even if it is not-for-profit, because they could loose the entire IP to the 'public domain' otherwise, and then where would we be? Everything from that point on becomes 'fanfic' (even stuff written by Ed).

When putting WotC against the human race, sadly I think WotC is the 'lesser of two evils'. At least there is some measure of control, even if we don't always like what they produce. And trust me, they do NOT want to 'go after' anyone - it kills them to do so. They realize that these are just fans, and that the backlash could prove disastrous. Don't put them in that situation. My advice is do what you want, have fun, and don't try to make money off of anything they own, even indirectly.

The guy is an artist thats just taking a commission to paint a picture of something a fan really enjoys - lets leave it at that.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Dec 2012 16:36:46
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
918 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2012 :  02:33:23  Show Profile Send Matt James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
C&D letters are not required by a copyright holder. WotC just does it because (reasons I don't know). They could, legally, just drop the hammer.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2012 :  03:13:40  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James

C&D letters are not required by a copyright holder. WotC just does it because (reasons I don't know). They could, legally, just drop the hammer.



Indeed. For all of the "WotC is t3h evil!!!111" commentary I've seen over the last few years, few people have been willing to acknowledge that WotC has been pretty laidback with fan-created web content.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2012 :  04:41:17  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No money is changing hands regarding Forgotten Realms work...I would simply rather not do that and have any problems as a result (even if they are hypothetical problems). My day doesn't need to be cluttered by First World complications.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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