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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Sep 2012 : 21:20:48
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A thought popped into my head today that got me thinking about the need for villains in a Realms story. It seems that there is always an antagonist who is evil...or at least morally ambiguous who is going against the main character(s). So I started wondering if there has ever been a Realms novel where there was no villain involved. I also wondered if such a novel would even be interesting. How would you go about writing a story based in the Realms on such a concept?
I bring this up here because I thought it would be interesting to involve the community in my thought experiment. I'm not a writer so I'm not testing ideas for myself. I also am really curious if there is any Realms novel that breaks the antagonist/protagonist model?
One idea for a story that has always floated around my head that kind of follows this idea is that of a wizard who is researching and creating either a new spell or a magic item. This is a topic that, to my knowledge, has rarely been explored. The best example i can think of is in the Crystal Shard when Bruenor forges Aegis-Fang. I'm not sure if it is just me who finds this concept interesting. But I always thought it would be cool to see someone on a quest to create the magic that we read about every day.
So a story like this wouldn't necessarily have an antagonist. Well, it could have one, but it is not necessary. Danger could still be involved. Goblins, Dragons, Demons, but these are just obstacles in the main characters path. But I come back to my main question. Is an antagonist necessary? Can the story be interesting without one? Would it be enough to delve into the details of how magic is created and the path one has to walk to bring a spell or an item to life?
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2012 : 21:29:26
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| A challenge tends to be needed. Something to overcome. It could be climbing a mountain, it could be as simple (can be hard) starting a new farm in virgin lands. There does not need to be a human, monster or humanoid foe to success, however that must be a problem to face and defeat or be defeated by. A farm can fail because of lack of water, crops do not grow well. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2012 : 21:52:31
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| I recall reading, somewhere, that all stories are either person versus person, person versus environment, or person versus self. Person versus person (or other intelligent entity) is the most common, but it's not the only type. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2012 : 22:26:15
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| I guess my idea would be more Person vs Self then, or maybe Person vs. Environment. But I'm not so sure it is really that simple. How would you define a quest where there is no one person or entity going up against you? The main focus of the story is how the quest was prosecuted by the main character. The challenge is in the difficulty of the task, not in the ability of a villain. I think maybe the Labors of Hercules would be a good example. But I wonder if King Eurystheus can be considered an antagonist. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2012 : 23:15:23
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| Caolin, person vs, self is something that does occur, there still though is a foe. Golum (spelling? ) of Lord of the Rings fought with inner soul loyalty to Frodo and desire for the one ring. These of course can be and have been done. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2012 : 23:32:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
I guess my idea would be more Person vs Self then, or maybe Person vs. Environment. But I'm not so sure it is really that simple. How would you define a quest where there is no one person or entity going up against you? The main focus of the story is how the quest was prosecuted by the main character. The challenge is in the difficulty of the task, not in the ability of a villain. I think maybe the Labors of Hercules would be a good example. But I wonder if King Eurystheus can be considered an antagonist.
If there is no one opposing the hero, and it's not some sort of struggle to overcome personal limitations, then I'd call it person versus environment. And that's not environment meaning Mother Nature, that's environment meaning his surroundings -- which could be the caldera of a volcano, Undermountain, a derelict spacecraft, a desert, Sherwood Forest, or even the Labyrinth constructed by Daedalus.
Environment, in this sense, means the external challenges and conditions in an area, and the area can be the most wild, untamed island, or a desolate moonscape, or the line at the DMV. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2012 : 23:33:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Caolin, person vs, self is something that does occur, there still though is a foe. Golum (spelling? ) of Lord of the Rings fought with inner soul loyalty to Frodo and desire for the one ring. These of course can be and have been done.
Oh I realize that. But I guess what I'm trying to get at is this. A story where there is no external or internal force working against the main characters and their goals. The main challenge comes from the difficulty of the task/quest they have set themselves upon. I used the example of the creation of an epic magic item or spell because this is a task that is inherently difficult and is supposed to take a lot of time, resources and struggle to accomplish. It requires no other force working against the character to make it interesting. I guess in a way the quest in itself becomes an indifferent, unrelenting antagonist. |
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Captain Grafalcon
Learned Scribe
Brazil
129 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 01:32:30
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| Following the idea person vs self, there is a computer game based in the Planescape setting (Planescape: Torment). The protagonist, with a loss of memory, travel through planes to discover about himself. There are enemies on his path, but they are only secondary. His greatest struggle is to *know* about himself. |
"Surely you recognize that armies carrying banners are almost always thieves—until they win."
Jarlaxle, mercenary leader of Bregan D'aerthe. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 19:09:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Gavinho
Following the idea person vs self, there is a computer game based in the Planescape setting (Planescape: Torment). The protagonist, with a loss of memory, travel through planes to discover about himself. There are enemies on his path, but they are only secondary. His greatest struggle is to *know* about himself.
I had forgotten about that game. Yes, a very good example and a great game too. I'm still curious to hear if there have been any Realms novels like this. I haven't been able to find one as of yet. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 20:35:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
quote:
Originally posted by Gavinho
Following the idea person vs self, there is a computer game based in the Planescape setting (Planescape: Torment). The protagonist, with a loss of memory, travel through planes to discover about himself. There are enemies on his path, but they are only secondary. His greatest struggle is to *know* about himself.
I had forgotten about that game. Yes, a very good example and a great game too. I'm still curious to hear if there have been any Realms novels like this. I haven't been able to find one as of yet.
I can't think of any... Fantasy, as a genre, is more inclined to having villains to fight. If you can't swing a sword at it or blow it up with a spell, you lose part of what defines fantasy. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 20:44:19
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Agreed, Wooly. And honestly, for me, a fantasy story without a villain is almost always bland. Villains don't just add flavor and color to the story, sometimes they define it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 21:05:08
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Maybe there has never been an honest attempt to write a good story without a villain. I don't believe that it is impossible or even hard to do. And not having a villain doesn't mean the hero can't "swing a sword or blow things up". In my example there are plenty of badies to kill. They are just part of the larger story and not a focus of it. I feel that if they don't at least try to break the hero/villain paradigm every once in a while you become too one dimensional and you end up repeating the same stories over and over.
But I will grant that the villain IS a big part of fantasy and you can't get away from it for too long. I just would like to see some variety in the story dynamics. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 21:06:08
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My favorite stories tend to be the ones loaded with grey characters. Villains? Heroes? They are all the same.  |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 21:07:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
Maybe there has never been an honest attempt to write a good story without a villain. I don't believe that it is impossible or even hard to do. And not having a villain doesn't mean the hero can't "swing a sword or blow things up". In my example there are plenty of badies to kill. They are just part of the larger story and not a focus of it. I feel that if they don't at least try to break the hero/villain paradigm every once in a while you become too one dimensional and you end up repeating the same stories over and over.
But I will grant that the villain IS a big part of fantasy and you can't get away from it for too long. I just would like to see some variety in the story dynamics.
Read Joe Abercrombie's First Law Trilogy |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 21:16:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Entreri3478
My favorite stories tend to be the ones loaded with grey characters. Villains? Heroes? They are all the same.
Seconded. And I like it when a presumed villain actually turned out to be the world's savior at the end. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Yoss
Learned Scribe
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2012 : 01:01:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Entreri3478
My favorite stories tend to be the ones loaded with grey characters. Villains? Heroes? They are all the same.
Same here, because I usually find wholly good and evil just for the sake of evil pretty boring and unrealistic. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2012 : 01:17:07
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| I think the shades of grey that writers use is very important, especially with adult readers. But you have to have a good ole Lord of the Rings style, black and white, good and evil story mixed in there from time to time. Wooly was right when he talked about the essence of fantasy. The black and white vision of good and evil defines fantasy fiction. But there is plenty of room for experimentation withing the genre. |
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Captain Grafalcon
Learned Scribe
Brazil
129 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2012 : 01:52:17
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| Good stories are always preceded by strong villains,sometimes more charismatic than the hero. |
"Surely you recognize that armies carrying banners are almost always thieves—until they win."
Jarlaxle, mercenary leader of Bregan D'aerthe. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2012 : 02:41:33
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Who was the villain in "Spine of the world"?
It was pretty much a Wulfgar vs his inner demons |
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Captain Grafalcon
Learned Scribe
Brazil
129 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2012 : 02:54:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Who was the villain in "Spine of the world"?
It was pretty much a Wulfgar vs his inner demons
Good point, Wulfgar and Morik faced a problem or two, but the book was all about Wulfgar´s torment. |
"Surely you recognize that armies carrying banners are almost always thieves—until they win."
Jarlaxle, mercenary leader of Bregan D'aerthe. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2012 : 03:30:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
quote:
Originally posted by Entreri3478
My favorite stories tend to be the ones loaded with grey characters. Villains? Heroes? They are all the same.
Same here, because I usually find wholly good and evil just for the sake of evil pretty boring and unrealistic.
Well said. I love the gritty realistic fantasy novels being written now. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2012 : 18:57:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Who was the villain in "Spine of the world"?
It was pretty much a Wulfgar vs his inner demons
Ahh yes! You are right. I actually liked that novel because it carried a lot of emotional weight. I might have to go back and reread it to look at it from another angle. |
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Yoss
Learned Scribe
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 01:32:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
quote:
Originally posted by Entreri3478
My favorite stories tend to be the ones loaded with grey characters. Villains? Heroes? They are all the same.
Same here, because I usually find wholly good and evil just for the sake of evil pretty boring and unrealistic.
Well said. I love the gritty realistic fantasy novels being written now.
I could use some reccomendations on that front. The night angel trilogy is the only thing I've read that falls under that category, really. |
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Neo2151
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 08:53:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
quote:
Originally posted by Entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
quote:
Originally posted by Entreri3478
My favorite stories tend to be the ones loaded with grey characters. Villains? Heroes? They are all the same.
Same here, because I usually find wholly good and evil just for the sake of evil pretty boring and unrealistic.
Well said. I love the gritty realistic fantasy novels being written now.
I could use some reccomendations on that front. The night angel trilogy is the only thing I've read that falls under that category, really.
A Song of Ice and Fire, even now that it's all "popular," is still exactly what you're asking for.
The good guys can die. The bad guys can become the good guys. It's a living story, in that there is no "good vs bad," but instead is just the story of the characters as they face each other and the world.
(And, for whatever it's worth, I have to whole-heartedly disagree with Wooly. D&D novels? Yes. Fantasy as an entire genre? No way.) |
"Come looking for me, and I will blast you to dust, and then lay waste to all your descendants, ancestors, and the realm you came from, every last tree and stone of it. Why? Well, it's what I usually do."
-Baerendra Riverhand on The Story of Spellfire |
Edited by - Neo2151 on 29 Sep 2012 08:56:45 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 12:30:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
quote:
Originally posted by Entreri3478
quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
quote:
Originally posted by Entreri3478
My favorite stories tend to be the ones loaded with grey characters. Villains? Heroes? They are all the same.
Same here, because I usually find wholly good and evil just for the sake of evil pretty boring and unrealistic.
Well said. I love the gritty realistic fantasy novels being written now.
I could use some reccomendations on that front. The night angel trilogy is the only thing I've read that falls under that category, really.
Definitely check out George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series, Game of Thrones is the first book. I would also highly recommend anything by british author Joe Abercrombie. His First Law Trilogy is amazing; The Blade Itself is the first book of that series. Steven Erikson is also very good, but for me he gets a little too wordy so his books don't feel as gritty as they really are. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
Edited by - Artemas Entreri on 29 Sep 2012 12:32:18 |
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Captain Grafalcon
Learned Scribe
Brazil
129 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 15:21:15
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| Yes, A Song of Ice and Fire series easily break the White-and-Black, Good vs.Evil pattern. In the books, Chivalry is superficial, or its used when conveniently. |
"Surely you recognize that armies carrying banners are almost always thieves—until they win."
Jarlaxle, mercenary leader of Bregan D'aerthe. |
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Yoss
Learned Scribe
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2012 : 11:37:19
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Cool, thanks. As for a song of fire and ice, I've wanted to watch the show but 1) don't have hbo, or a tv at all for that matter, but more importantly 2) HATE watching things like that which are based off books that I haven't read. Always gotta read the books first, nothing is worse than picturing places and people as they are in the movie/show/miniseries. But all I really knew about it was that winter is coming. And that all the books are really long, but I've got nothing against long books.
I'll look into Abercrombie, too. |
Edited by - Yoss on 30 Sep 2012 11:37:56 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 02:22:31
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There are several of us Realms writers who do the shades of gray thing too. Paul Kemp for one. And that one really tall guy with the funny last name.
My last two novels the villains have all been fairly minor--the challenges mostly come from the heroes themselves, and they spend as much time fighting each other than trying to beat the BBEG.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Yoss
Learned Scribe
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 05:44:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
There are several of us Realms writers who do the shades of gray thing too. Paul Kemp for one. And that one really tall guy with the funny last name.
My last two novels the villains have all been fairly minor--the challenges mostly come from the heroes themselves, and they spend as much time fighting each other than trying to beat the BBEG.
Cheers
True, I've read and thoroughly enjoyed all Kemp's stuff, and once I whittle down my/my housemate's piles of realms books, you're next. I'll never make it through a series the size of song of... Without reading other things between. |
Edited by - Yoss on 01 Oct 2012 09:01:07 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 05:50:51
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One comes, unheralded, to Zirta has no villain. I recall a few stories from the anthologies that didn't have villains (or rather, very ambiguous characters).
What about a story with no hero? Wasn't there one where Artemis Entreri killed a Shade? (and swallowed his cosmic McGuffin) When an assassin kills a bad guy, who's the villain?
I just watched Dexter a little while ago... I have a great character idea for the Realms now... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Oct 2012 05:51:53 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 10:56:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What about a story with no hero?
Protagonist and hero are not synonomous. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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A story with no villain?
