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 How would you run a Drow House War
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kaithoward
Acolyte

2 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2012 :  14:51:22  Show Profile  Visit kaithoward's Homepage Send kaithoward a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
my sister is the official DM but I'm no novice either, we run a 2 person campaign with 4 characters (currently) and one of our characters is a merc working for House Tormtor when House Despana and House Xaniqos attack
Look i know these are in Greyhawk but we moved Erelhei-Cinlu to Faerun via portal for convenience sake...cuz Erelhei-Cinlu is a srsly interesting place.
but anyway
I am baffled on how we would run this...I mean you cant just roll saves for 100+ drow, and furthermore there is very little I have found about house wars other than that it is chaotic...like do the noble families hide behind their servants? Or do they fight alongside them? would the daughters use the opportunity of an attack to turn on the Matron? I have done alot of research on it but have not found enough info to run a campaign thats main focus is this drow vs drow war

Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2449 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2012 :  15:13:49  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, it depends on how detailed you want to be, and whether you want to bring some war-gaming aspects into it.

TSR back in 2e had a system called Battlesystem, that was essentially for exactly this sort of large-scale combat, using platoons of soldiers and hero units. I'm not a wargamer, but it's probably possible to adapt some other system (Warhammer fantasy, maybe?) to be a drow vs drow with slaves on either side slugfest.

If you don't want to go the wargaming route, then the easiest way is to focus very tightly on the PC's. The DM decides on the general course of the battle in a narrative way, and then it's up to the PC's to determine where and when they intervene.

For instance, the DM decides that the opening phase of the battle will go well for the defenders, with the drow on the wall easily beating back the goblinoid fodder. This continues until the attacking wizards blast a hole in the wall and an elite drow strike team enters. The strike team take the wall's defenders from behind as more goblinoids pour into the breach, and others start making it over the wall.

Now you have your PC's, who are presumably being held in reserve, watching this. Do they intervene when the wall breaks? Later? Do they see something else that needs doing (like a counter strike?).

That's the way I would run it: figure out how the battle is going to go (preferably with the PC's side losing) and then turn it loose on the PC's to see if they can salvage it. Come up with logical "interference points" along the way, and figure out how they might change things. That way you don't need to be rolling hundreds of attack rolls or saving throws. You describe it to the PC's narratively, what they're seeing, and what they have to respond to.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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MalariaMoon
Learned Scribe

324 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2012 :  17:15:12  Show Profile  Visit MalariaMoon's Homepage Send MalariaMoon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Without mercy ...
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2012 :  17:43:24  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not necessarily saying you should go a route that involves rolling hundreds of saving throws, but it is actually simple to do if you have a laptop handy, with Excel.

This is blasphemy (using something other than dice) but it hastens the process of making large numbers of rolls. Also, it's cold and merciless, much like drow, so I say it fits this situation.

Example:

cell A1: enter the formula =roundup(rand()*20,0)
cell B1: enter the save DC, counting whatever bonuses and penalties apply
cell C1: enter the formula =A1-B1
copy A1-C1 downward for as many saves as you need
cell D1: enter the formula =countif(C1:C1000,">0")

You might not need C1:C1000, or it might be more than that. Just make sure it covers your whole list in the C column. D1 then gives you the number of successful saves.

If you need to know which individuals made their saves, you can use Conditional Formatting to highlight the positive values in the C column.

Just sayin...

Edited by - xaeyruudh on 22 Jul 2012 17:58:38
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2012 :  18:04:14  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
^Uhm.. Drow of Lolth are not cold at all, actually they're (in general) kinda frustrated, and easily freak out in rage.

On topic: as it has already been suggested, you could use some wargame rules, if they're available to you (like Warhammer rules for weapons, armor (etc...), but using WH 40k movement, shooting and assault, that tends to be skirmish-y and not related to formations, which I'd like better for a battle among drow).

Or maybe you could do something like organizing forces in units of virtually identical soldiers, calculating average damage for them and using one single dice roll to represent to-hit shoots and swings, or saves (etc...) for the whole unit. So, if you had -say- 10 equivalent warriors busy in a fight, instead of rolling die for each of them, you'd roll them only once and would apply the result to all.

However -personally- I wouldn't go for a flat battle in such situations. Rather (as it has been already suggested too), I'd use a descriptive/narrative approach for the general battle, reserving actual fights only to the areas of the battle the players choose to be involved in (maybe even loosing the rules in some opportunities, allowing particular stunts, or something along these lines...).

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 22 Jul 2012 18:37:38
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2012 :  18:20:38  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kaithoward

like do the noble families hide behind their servants? Or do they fight alongside them? would the daughters use the opportunity of an attack to turn on the Matron?


This is the trickier part of the question. I would answer those particular questions no, no, and maybe.

It's not that they hide behind servants and minions. It's that the drow keep this chattel on hand to deal with such matters, or at least to be the first line of offense/defense. Slaves will battle slaves, and most likely drow will battle drow. Slave forces are probably led by drow males, but any drow who stand with the slaves will (at least in their own minds) stand above them as drill sergeants and "morale" officers). Meanwhile the real battle is taking place between the priestesses and other spellcasters.

Any excuse is a good excuse to take the matron's place... as long as complete success is reasonably likely. It's not just about killing the matron; the ambitious daughter has to also be assured that she can defeat the attacking house and any/all of her sisters who might have the same ambitions.

As I understand it, House attacks are always to the death. There are few, if any, situations where both Houses survive. So it would be highly unusual for an ambitious daughter to make an agreement with a rival house that says something like "hey, come attack our House, and while the matron is distracted I'll kill her, and then you can go back home and you and I will be best friends" ...and have the rest of the city be okay with that arrangement. It seems more likely that the ruling Houses would see such collaboration as weak and subversive, and they would move to crush one or both of the Houses. But that's just my take, and it's mostly based on Menzoberranzan. You may decide that things are different in your campaign.

The 2e Menzoberranzan box had an adventure book detailing a House attack scenario. If you have access to that, it may be a good read... though, upon inspection, it doesn't really have much specific info about the structure of battle.

Edited by - xaeyruudh on 22 Jul 2012 18:35:04
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2012 :  18:57:22  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

actually they're (in general) kinda frustrated, and easily freak out in rage.


Point taken. They're definitely hot-headed, but they're cold-hearted too. Whipping a male who displeased you might be passionate; watching a slave die for making eye contact with a priestess is pretty cold.
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2012 :  19:31:05  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The novel Homeland describes two different house wars, as does Exile. The first in Homeland is the most detailed, and could probably serve as a template.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2012 :  11:54:42  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the first thing to do would be to assess the two houses involved.
What forces do each of the houses have, are they evenly matched, is one house massively outnumbered and therefore likely to lose.

Next is to decide are any allies involved, now while it is true Drow are not known for loyalty, it is possible that other houses may supply money, troops, equipment etc to a particular side to even old scores, or even eliminate the more powerful house so it can elevate itself in the power of the city.

Now with most drow the rank and file in a house war would be the slaves, humanoids, vermin, all organised into units and commanded by low level members of that house. It is likely that most would be fighters/warriors, but im sure each house would contain low level priests/wizards to buff the troops etc.

Once the forces are decided, and the outcome determined it is then down to individuals. Is one of the matrons particularly crafty/Intelligent, if so she will be likely to utilise nasty underhanded tactics (like using elite strike teams to poison the water/food supplies, or maybe teleporting teams into the other house bedchambers and gating in a few fiends (assuming it is within her power).

The PCs can also be involved as they choose, or as commanded by the matron.

Just because a house is noticeably weaker and almost guaranteed to lose doesnt mean the outcome is predetermined. There are always factions within the city that may come to the aid of one house or another. Then there might be agents outside the city waiting for strife within to launch an attack and disrupt things. If it is set in Faerun, depending on the time there is a lot going on in the Underdark such as the Legion of Gold and the Legion of Steel marching on Shanatar, or the Scoured Legion in the North.

Things could get very messy if you wanted them too, the whole thing might have been a setup by one of the heirs to a house, persuading her mother to launch an attack to keep her mind focused on that whilst her daughter usurped control and bumped her off (as pointed out she might not wish to stop the attack once she has control, but she might also not be well respected among the troops, nor might she be as accomplished a tactician or diplomat leaving her open to treachery herself).

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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1446 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2012 :  19:00:19  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you want to attempt to use combat like they do in the novels. The matron mother and 7 of the highest ranked priests will use the spell Meld of Lolth (6th) to link themselves to a male. Then use a form of circle magic, much like red wizards do to up the power of casts spells. When Matron Malice blew in the chapel doors to House De'vir, I always assumed she used something like a high powered spiritual wrath spell with Zaknafein as the point of spell focus. The entire mental combat between house priestesses seemed entirely devoted to tying up their attention, resources, and time to allow an attack to succeed.

Here's some info from Ed and THO regarding drow warfare:
In general, the hardest thing for a drow house to conceal in an attack on a rival house in the same city is the military buildup. So a lot of misdirection and guerilla stuff goes on, including secretly mustering way out in the "wild" Underdark and then ambushing the rival house's patrols to weaken them, for some months before the all-out assault.
In all cases where the attacker doesn't have the brute-force or magical muscle to "crash right in," the assault usually involves trying to find defensive weaknesses and gaining access hard and fast through those weak points (which usually means an assault using magic or drop-lines from cavern ceilings or both, to gain access to upper-level windows or floors and so bypassing entry doors and heavily-defended areas), and deception (coming in concealed in food wagons, or posing as members of the house returning from a patrol or business trip, etc.).
Attackers often employ "trick" wagons loaded with timber frames that can be unfolded to jam doors open, or bombs (so as to blow up front gates or firing-port defenses), and smokepot/fiery bombs to force defenders out of certain areas with thick smoke, etc.
It is almost always against local civic rules to "wholesale poison" large numbers of fellow drow (i.e. by tainting a well or common water supply or incoming food or drinkables), though poisoned weapons can be used. Usually a house that does this will be punished by the rest of the community in the same manner as if their assault had failed.
So the magically-capable members of smaller drow houses engaged in warfare would do things like cast fly spells on key warriors of their house to mount these upper-storey assaults, and then provide "fighting support" (the fireballs, the webs) to assault teams once things get underway.
Lastly, diversions and disruptions. Such as an arranged stampede of pack lizards or Underdark monsters to occupy defenders in one or more locations before the real attackers arrive in other locations. Hired or manipulated driders (outcasts, not part of the attacking house) who stage a timely/untimely raid. Avalanches or stalactite falls (magically or physically triggered), and so on.

As for troop strength...well, as much as Candlekeep scribes are growing weary of my saying "it depends," I'm going to do it again anyway: It depends. :}
But yes, 20 to 50 warriors sounds good (less than twenty is either just a patrol raid or a suicidal attack, unless it's one unit of several involved in an all-out assault, and much above fifty isn't a smaller house unless the entire city is small or ravaged by war). The only such attack I've ever roleplayed through in detail, in a TSR playtest years back, had a main force of 45 (three priestesses and two wizards leading forty warriors) and a secondary "sneak attack from the rear" force of six veteran fighters, four veteran wizards, and two novice wizards.
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