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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Apr 2012 : 05:31:59
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What exactly is it that people travel thousands of miles from Faerun to Kara-Tur to obtain? Silk? Produced in Sembia and Tethyr. Tea? Also in Tethyr.
That is a huge distance for things they can get closer to home. Maybe it's the other way around? Maybe Faerun is the source of exotic goods, and Kara-Tur the consumers. That'd be an interesting (and refreshing) reversal of the situation of the analogues those two continents from real world history, where Europe really had nothing much the Far East wanted or needed.
That'd make sense. In our world it was called the Silk Road. In FR it's the Golden Way, and that's because all of this money from the east is coming in, instead of silks?
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Edited by - Eladrinstar on 23 Apr 2012 05:39:12
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2012 : 06:46:15
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It's an interesting question, in that in order to be worth the cost of travelling by caravan over the thousands of miles, it has to be a good that is either very light and very valuable, not to mention sought after, or it has to have a price at the point of origin that's only a tiny fraction of the final price. Ideally, of course, both.
We know that Sembian and Tethyrian silk is considered inferior to Kara-Turan silk. This has to be some inferiority, mind you, to make it worth spending the money on wages of guards, drivers, merchants and the rest of the caravan, oxen (who'll eat grain and hay worth up to a gold piece per day) and return on investment on the capital. I guess that a typical year-long caravan to Kara-Tur, say maybe six wagons and twenty people, mounted, costs a minimum of 5000 gp for food for animals and people and a further 15,000 gp in salaries. This is excluding any losses, tariffs, taxes or return on investment.
To make it worthwhile, you need to be able to sell your Kara-Turan silk for a lot more than you could sell Sembian silk. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2012 : 06:51:13
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Note that there is a Silk Road on Toril, like on Earth. It runs through Khazari and Semphar.
The Golden Way was the less-used path in the past, what with the Taangan 'savages' and all, but seems to be the prefered one after the establishment of Yaimunnahar.
It seems to be Faerunian merchants who drive the trade, not Kara-Turan ones. I'd expect that this means that the demand is in Faerun.
Silk is one commodity that is canonically traded. I'd look in The Horde to see a list of others, as there are examples of caravan loads there. |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2012 : 07:13:19
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Is superior silk really worth all that travel? Keep in mind silk production in the real world was simply something the West couldn't accomplish at the time. The very scarcity and exotic origin of silk was the reason it was so valuable.
Edit: So I see from your post there are other things they trade. I'll look into that. |
Edited by - Eladrinstar on 23 Apr 2012 07:14:38 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2012 : 07:16:46
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Another possibility to consider is monopolies. On historical Earth, the existence of legal monopolies on certain trade goods encouraged those who desired to profit by trading these goods but did not fulfil the conditions of the monopoly (nationality or belonging to a certain company, perhaps) to travel much longer and more expensive routes.
American opium traders in the early 19th century sailed around the Horn of Africa to China with opium from Turkey because they were barred from buying in Calcutta. That's a considerable addition in terms of cost and time. Not equivalent to travelling thousands of miles by land, but considerable nonetheless.
If only certain trading families dominate trade in Sembian silk or Tethyrian tea, for example, and these families deliberately keep their production down to levels below the potential demand, well, there's an incentive to travel further afield to get product to feed that excess demand.
Remember, the Durpari have a lot of shipping and are described as the greatest traders in Faerun. They are probably supplying most of the Shining South as well as Calimshan and environs with a lot of stuff that originated in Kara-Tur (as well as the Utter East, Zakhara and other places). |
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Edited by - Icelander on 23 Apr 2012 07:17:24 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2012 : 07:27:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
Is superior silk really worth all that travel? Keep in mind silk production in the real world was simply something the West couldn't accomplish at the time. The very scarcity and exotic origin of silk was the reason it was so valuable.
It is canonical that it is worth it to certain merchants, yes. But that does not necessarily imply volume of trade that is enough to matter at all to Kara-Tur.
If Sembian silk is viewed as coarse and gauche, I suppose that Kara-Turan silk might be two or three times more expensive, on average. In which case a square yard of it might be bought for one fifth of what you'd sell it for, or so.
Packing it well, you might carry maybe five or six thousand yards in our hypothetical caravan. This would be an investment worth at least 20,000 gp, then, and you could expect to see it lose around 12% of its value through the rigours of travel, I guess.
You'd see around 88,000 gp when your caravan finally got back, if you were carrying just silk. Assuming that you initially sunk most of your money into the caravan itself and carried maybe 10,000 gp worth of goods that you sold for double what you bought them for in Kara-Tur, you've spent a year of time and at least 20,000 gp to turn a profit of 68,000 gp less whatever you spent on tariffs, taxes and what you lost on the way.
This is probably enough to justify such trade, even with some danger. It is, however, not enough if one out of two caravans are lost. So during times of unrest, I guess it's not worth going. Same goes if you need more than one guard or so per wagon or if the guards need paying more than skilled mercenaries in our world might be seeing. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2012 : 09:03:55
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| I love how you break things down Icelander! Another good one for your books. ;-) |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2012 : 11:10:08
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These merchants will also profit in transporting "exotic" goods from Faerūn to Kara-Tur, they won't travel halfway across the world with empty wagons. In fact, successful merchants will buy and sell goods (and make some profit) at every stop along the path, their main cargo of Kara-Tur silk and porcelain might be only a fraction of their total inventory, and they will always carry other items of interest in the hopes of discovering new sources of profit. Ordinary items like spices, alcohols, textiles, maps, and information all increase in value as they are carried to faraway lands. It's not like the merchant dumps 20k gold on all his supplies and just heads out; he's got to resupply at every stop along the path, and whenever possible he'll buy what he needs by spending his trade goods (at a profit) instead of his gold. Ideally, his coffers would always be half-empty while his wagons brim full of unsold valuables; bandits and tax collectors will often seize coins and liquors but are rarely interested in curtains and dinnerware. For many merchants it's as much about the lifestyle and travel bug as it is about the money.
One can make many silvers by smuggling contraband items (or people), many merchants are savvy (and unethical) enough to capitalize on black market opportunities. There are also always special markets and collectors who will buy specific kinds of artwork and magical items. Experienced merchants are often hired to function as unofficial envoys or diplomats, carrying gifts and messages (even treaties) between distant families or governments ... many of these also earn some silvers working as spies for one or both parties.
Travel by ship is another option with comparable costs and risks overall, but the time for each voyage can be substantially reduced if they are scheduled during favourable seasons. Travel by flying ship, spelljammer, or teleport magics are other options for particularly affluent merchants. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 23 Apr 2012 11:13:14 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2012 : 15:33:06
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People love luxuries from 'far-off places'.
I read a book on ancient India, and they found stuff from both ancient-China and Mesopotamian regions (along with relics from the proto-Greek cultures of the Mediterranean). What this means is that even 7000 years ago, people traveled thousands of miles to bring back spices, fabric, pottery, animals, etc.. which could have all been had locally (albeit of different qualities and types).
It seems 'the rich' have always wanted to pay more for stuff someone else didn't have. Stupid, I know.
There are two main routes to KT - The Silk Road, and the Spice Road, so there you go. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 16:29:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
People love luxuries from 'far-off places'.
Oh, we do. We love them even more, though, the more of us that can afford them. You'll note that few companies today bother to advertise that their silk scarves are made with silk that has been dragged thousands of miles by ox-cart for no reason in particular.
It's not that it's unrealistic that anyone would trade with Kara-Tur. I think the plausibility problem lies in the fact that Faerunian ship-building and navigation is considerably more advanced than that of the real world during the period of the historical Silk Road.
The Empires trilogy about the Hordelands is written with close historical parallels to events in the 13th century on Earth. And mind you, even in the 13th century on Earth, the name 'Silk Road' evoked a sense of history, dating as it did back to several centuries before the Common Era. The most prolific period for the Silk Road was around the time of Alexander the Great and for a few more centuries into Roman domination of the East. The rest of Faerun does not have parallels to such an early era of Earth history and some areas of technology there are at a 19th century level. This creates a dissonance.
With shipping at 16th to 19th century levels, it would be cheaper, faster and more efficient to trade with Kara-Tur over water than land. That's the plausibility problem I have.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I read a book on ancient India, and they found stuff from both ancient-China and Mesopotamian regions (along with relics from the proto-Greek cultures of the Mediterranean). What this means is that even 7000 years ago, people traveled thousands of miles to bring back spices, fabric, pottery, animals, etc.. which could have all been had locally (albeit of different qualities and types).
During this time, though, some things were true on Earth that are not true for Faerun in the 1300s DR.
For the first part, silk was simply unavailable in the West. It couldn't be made. Same applied to porcelain and certain spices.
So if you had silk, porcelain and certain spices (mostly from India and not from China, though), everyone could tell how cultured and rich you were. If there had been local versions available and these were close enough for the average observer to confuse with your exotic version, the demand would drop sharply. As it turns out, only a tiny minority is prepared to pay through the nose for a private feeling of smug self-satisfaction. For true appeal, it must be easily shared with the rest of creation.
In order for there to be a market for Kara-Turan silk and porcelain, these articles must be distinguishable from Sembian and other Faerunian versions, preferably by a single glance. In order for the demand to be significant, the local substitutes must be perceived as very inferior and gauche, because otherwise the price difference is not enough to justify the long trip and great risks.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It seems 'the rich' have always wanted to pay more for stuff someone else didn't have. Stupid, I know.
Fads and fashions may support a generation of trade, but not centuries. Tulips eventually crashed, but spices and silk endured.
There was a genuine demand for silk in the West and a genuine demand in the East for cotton. Given that the majority of people like food to taste of other things than just meat or vegetables occasionally, the same goes for spices.
Spices mostly came from India and in the Realms, the Shining South and Utter East are more plausible sources for a lot of popular spices than anywhere in Kara-Tur. I think that both sides, Kara-Tur and Faerun, buy from Durpari traders on that score.
In my campaign, at least, Sembian sericulture is hobbled by the climate and lack of a lot of the plants that grow in Kara-Tur and the silkworms are fed in order to make specific types of thread. The Sembians can make silk, yes, but it is a coarse and shabby thing indeed compared with Kara-Turan silks. I view it is being used raw often enough, for armour padding and suchlike. For decorative purposes and for comfortable clothing, Kara-Turan brands are still greatly preferred.
There's also smokepowder. The Church of Gond is selling it at incredible prices and the Thayans swear that they cannot reduce their own price, as the incredients they use are so expensive. Meanwhile, Kara-Tur has long had much cheaper smokepowder. In my campaign, it is a question of several different recipies, with the primary Kara-Turan being by far the cheapest, but since the exotic incredients are specific to that land, no Faerunian alchemist has so far divined the precise recipie. So smokepowder is likely to become a sought-after trade item.
The Kara-Turans, meanwhile, buy spices from Luiren, the Shining Lands and Ulgarth. They also buy the finest Mulhorandi linen, wines from the Vilhon Reach and Chessenta, elegant woods that don't grow locally* and artwork. I would expect scrimshaw from the North to be exotic enough and since it is genuinely beautiful and the upper-class Shou is truly a devotee of beauty, it could sell. The Horde suggests that alchemical incredients go both ways, with Faerunian monster-parts and plants going east and vice versa.
A fairly mundane, but nevertheless important thing is the fact that Kara-Turan methods of making steel, while innovative and having served well, are most probably less efficient than the larger furnaces whose existence is implied by the availability of plate armour in Faerun. In the real world, it was those furnaces that heralded the end of the Middle Ages and until they came into wide use, plate armour wasn't practical. This means that places like Amn, Waterdeep, Impiltur, Cormyr, Sembia and probably Chondath** can make steel far more cheaply than other places and therefore nearly certainly export it.***
While smaller places around them will quickly set up blast furnaces to match, Kara-Tur is far enough away to make it more difficult to copy the methods immediately. When the cultural conservatism of Shou Lung and the lack of influence held by merchants is considered, it is not unlikely that the mandarinate would be very slow to dispatch emissaries to Faerun to learn metallurgy and the building of industrial infrastructure. On the other hand, Shou Lung might manage to avoid the pit-falls that real-world China fell victim to in our history. Only time, and the DM, will tell.****
Meanwhile, though, good steel will be a trade item, as will items made from it. While traditionalists will no doubt prefer local swords and armour, the fact is that even accounting for transport costs, it is probably more economical to buy steel weapons and armour from abroad. Of course, D&D rules don't account for this, making Masterwork weapons and armour cost the same everywhere, but in a realistic campaign, they ought to vary tremendously, depending on materials costs and the availability of expert labour.
If it is understood by players that the equipment costs in books represent an average for campaigns where people would rather not get into it and not the actual state of any marketplace, it wouldn't be surprising to see a cargo of Masterwork steel crossbows making its way to Kara-Tur, for example. Crossbows are popular there, but it is not economical for them to use steel prods, due to the extreme cost of such springy high-quality steel. If you have blast furnaces, however, steel crossbows are cheaper than composite horn, wood and sinew ones, and while they are not superior, as such,***** they are more robust and can pack more power into the prod, for longer range and more penetrating power.
*A search would turn up some names, but I'm lazy. Left as exercise for the reader. Going by imprecise memory, I think ebony grows somewhere on the Shining South and is sought after. There are also several Faerun-specific types that grow there. If equivalents to rosewood grow in the North of Faerun, I expect these could be sought-after too.
**In my campaign, at least. Can't have all these mercenaries and no industry to arm them.
***Judging by the locally-popular armour, it may be that Chondath and Chessenta are slightly behind in the size of blast furnaces and therefore the cost of good steel. If one considers that they are leading in crossbow manufacturing, it may just be a cultural thing, though. Armour made from segmented steel plates is easier to fit to a new owner than articulated plate harness, after all, and mercenaries might sell their armour after service. If that's the case, it would not be implausible to suppose that Chessenta is every bit as productive in the area of steel as its more western neighbours.
****Well, if you like the 4e setting named The Forgotten Realms, the question is moot, as the collapse of international trade means that real wages fall enough to make mass production of, well, anything except food, not worth the effort. In that setting, the trade boom of the 1300s belongs firmly to the past and there are no indications that conditons will ever support such an era of exploration, adventure and wealth again. Survival and looting of the ruins of the past is more the order of the day.
*****If anyone is interested, it is because they are much less efficient. An 800-lb draw weight steel prod will impart less velocity to a bolt than a 300-lb draw weight composite one. On the other hand, you can get 2000+-lb steel prods that are of a size with the largest composite ones and if you have that much power, efficiency can go and boil its arse. The drawback (see what I did there?) of the extremely high draw weights is, of course, that you need mechanical assistance to reload and that takes a long time. For purely military uses, however, the utility of rapid fire is often overestimated. Ammunition has to be carried along and in a battle of two hour duration, the utility of six arrows per minute vs. one or two might simply by that you are out of arrows far sooner.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There are two main routes to KT - The Silk Road, and the Spice Road, so there you go.
The names are nearly certainly historical, though, so there is no guarantee that they are used for their ancient purpose in these modern days of advanced ships and navigation.
Galleons are the ideal ships for sailing long distances like that and trading with foreign cultures. In our world, the circumnaviation of Africa was the primary danger involved in sailing to Asia, but on Toril, the Zakharan subcontinent does not extend far enough south to make it a real obstacle.
If sailing to Kara-Tur is not yet widespread, I suppose that the mysterious islands south of Zakhara conceal some great and terrible dangers. Though since you could follow more or less civilised coastlines along Zakhara the whole time, I don't see it. Zakharan sailors go there all the time and while corsairs and seamonsters are no doubt active, they are no more a danger there than in many other places where trade does go on.
At worst, you could even sell your Kara-Turan wares on the east coast of Zakhara, leaving locals to take them through the islands and sell them on the west coast, probably to Amnian or Durpari traders.
In my campaign, I'm going with all the advanced ships seen in canon being relatively recent, as in after 1300 DR at least, and therefore not having influenced society as much as they will in a generation or two. The overland route to Kara-Tur is therefore somewhat anachronistic and will become less important as soon as someone figures out a sea route.
The availability of some many other adventurous careers for capable youths of courage and wanderlust has evidently meant that Faerunian sea exploration has lagged behind the technological capability to carry it out. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 24 Apr 2012 17:43:27 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 16:46:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
That'd make sense. In our world it was called the Silk Road. In FR it's the Golden Way, and that's because all of this money from the east is coming in, instead of silks?
The Golden Way was a profitable trade route between Thesk and Telflamm and northern Thay and Rashemen. It also connected to Shou Lung, but that road more correctly bore the name 'The Spice Road'. Most of the profit there appeared to come from moving goods shipped over the Sea of Fallen Stars to the land-locked Rashemi and the northern Thayan provinces. Assuming the River Thay is navigable to some extent, it makes sense that it would be cheaper to ship goods to Telflamm and thence to docks on Lake Mulsantir, rather than overland through all Thay.
By all appearances, the Golden Way was not important at all to the eastern side in recent memory. The name of the Spice Road might be historical, but if not, it is somewhat of a puzzler why spice should be traded there.
Northern Shou Lung is probably poor ground for growing spices and the same goes for Rashemen and Thesk. Thay, on the other hand, is likely to be a source of good spices, being a fine acricultural land with climate control and plenty of slave labour. But Thay also lies close to the trade routes that go through Semphar and Khazari, which appear to have been far more important, not to mention shorter and safer, in the years before the rise of Yamun Khahan.
The best I can guess is that Thay sold spices to all sorts of merchants, who would use both routes and it just happened to be the north one that inherited the name. But I would think that geographically, at least, spice came into Kara-Tur mostly through the Silk Road. Apart from Thayan spice, it would be spice from Ulgarth and Durpar, as well as anywhere Durpari traders do business, which is the entire south of Faerun.
I guess it's possible Thayans realised that they'd get higher prices if they didn't try to compete with the powerhouse of the Durpari and directed much of their spice toward the northern road.
As for spice coming from Shou Lung and to Faerun, I would think this would not be as common. It is true that Shou Lung can buy exotic spices from the rest of Kara-Tur, yes, but they will not be able to grow much locally that does not grow just as well or even better in the Shining South. And unlike Faerun, Shou Lung has no acricultural land to spare for growing anything but food.
So they'd maybe sell exotic peppers and suchlike from the south of Kara-Tur and the islands in the Celestial and Eastern Sea, but they'll mostly be buying spices. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 17:57:31
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quote:
Icelander
It's not that it's unrealistic that anyone would trade with Kara-Tur. I think the plausibility problem lies in the fact that Faerunian ship-building and navigation is considerably more advanced than that of the real world during the period of the historical Silk Road ... With shipping at 16th to 19th century levels, it would be cheaper, faster and more efficient to trade with Kara-Tur over water than land. That's the plausibility problem I have.
Less implausible when you consider that many of the affluent nations in Faerūn have no access to ocean waterways. The Mediterranean opened sea trade to half a world, while the landlocked Sea of Fallen Stars simply does not connect to Kara-Tur. The closest ports for Cormyr would be Baldur's Gate or the Shining South, still requiring a great deal of overland movement. More inland nations like Thay would have to ferry goods across land and water several times, staging them across the Gulf of Luiren and Alamber Sea or the Shining Sea and Vilhon Reach. Major overland transport seems unavoidable unless you just happen to live somewhere like Waterdeep.
I personally feel that sea travel in the Realms is more dangerous than in our world. Ships of the Realms have to face all the same sorts of problems and pirates as ships did on Earth ... but they also have to contend with very real storm gods, sea monsters, spellcasters, and even aquatic attackers. Sure, these things can be friendly, helpful, and defensive as well, but a ship can only take so much abuse before it sinks and sunken ships equate to total losses where a wagon caravan might have managed to escape with only partial losses. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 18:04:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
These merchants will also profit in transporting "exotic" goods from Faerūn to Kara-Tur, they won't travel halfway across the world with empty wagons. In fact, successful merchants will buy and sell goods (and make some profit) at every stop along the path, their main cargo of Kara-Tur silk and porcelain might be only a fraction of their total inventory, and they will always carry other items of interest in the hopes of discovering new sources of profit. Ordinary items like spices, alcohols, textiles, maps, and information all increase in value as they are carried to faraway lands.
What put a damper on that sort of thing in the pre-Yamun days was the fact that the Taangan didn't have many permanent settlements adn were, at any rate, rather more likely to rob travellers than trade with them. No doubt there were always tribes who had cordial relationships with the periodic trading caravans, but while that's good as far as it goes, the problem the traders had was that few Taangan could afford much.
You could buy food and forage from the tribes, in exchange for some minor trinkets from your wagons, but it would be traffic measured in coppers and silvers. This looks set to change with the emergence of Yaimunnahar, though, as Hubadai Khahan genuinely wants his people to become rich, settled and comfortable. This will involve trade and lots of it. Which is why I started a thread on what the Taangan could have worth trading to other realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
It's not like the merchant dumps 20k gold on all his supplies and just heads out; he's got to resupply at every stop along the path, and whenever possible he'll buy what he needs by spending his trade goods (at a profit) instead of his gold.
You'll note that I abstracted all that away by assuming that the merchant made a profit of 10,000 gp on his trading on the eastbound leg, after investing some 20,000 gp in his caravan and trade goods combined. If you think that the profit of four to five months of travel with minor trading on the way for food and forage ought to add substantially to that figure, you're welcome to increase it.
In fact, any time I use 'gp', I use it as a unit of accounting, not to indicate that anyone is actually carrying gold pieces in particular. It is somewhat immaterial in what form the merchant is carrying it, but we may assume that it depends on the availability of portable valuables where he stops, the likely demand in lands ahead of him and his personal preferences and idiosyncracies.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Ideally, his coffers would always be half-empty while his wagons brim full of unsold valuables; bandits and tax collectors will often seize coins and liquors but are rarely interested in curtains and dinnerware. For many merchants it's as much about the lifestyle and travel bug as it is about the money.
I don't doubt that there are people who travel for a living because they like travel. I just doubt that they'd prefer to travel the same road back and forth all the time when they could be travelling somewhere else and making more money.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
One can make many silvers by smuggling contraband items (or people), many merchants are savvy (and unethical) enough to capitalize on black market opportunities. There are also always special markets and collectors who will buy specific kinds of artwork and magical items. Experienced merchants are often hired to function as unofficial envoys or diplomats, carrying gifts and messages (even treaties) between distant families or governments ... many of these also earn some silvers working as spies for one or both parties.
More applicable to the normal existence of merchants around the Inner Sea and the Sword Coast than to people who are travelling a desolate road in the wilderness for a whole year.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Travel by ship is another option with comparable costs and risks overall, but the time for each voyage can be substantially reduced if they are scheduled during favourable seasons. Travel by flying ship, spelljammer, or teleport magics are other options for particularly affluent merchants.
By weight and volume of trade goods, travel by ship costs anywhere between one and two orders of magnitude less than travel by caravan. It is less 'comparable' than it is 'the only thing to do, if you can manage it by any means'.
Caravans are used when there simply is no way to sail between two places. They were used quite a lot in the Ancient World and into the medieval period, before navigation and shipbuilding advanced to the point of making sailing out of sight of land practical. Sailing and caravanning are not competing methods of shipping on the same routes, any more than hot-air balloons compete with jets today as carriers of people between continents.
Another point to consider is that if the magical means above work well enough in the setting, any merchant that manages to borrow, beg or steal enough to start using them will become affluent. Since this has not happened over millenia of availability, we are forced to conclude that all of the above methods have some flaws that simplistic game rules omit to mention, as these may not have any relevance to typical PC adventuring use of the items.
In my game, the magical anchoring points of portals fray with use, making them very unsafe for mass transport. The stress of an occasional person is nothing, but tons of matter per day? That would quikcly invite hazards on a momentous scale.
Teleport spells are expensive and risky, with Teleport Without Error confined to people who, their prominence in novels and sourcebooks aside, really are rare in the world. And most of them have their own goals, among which wealth is a mere trifle not worth considering, as they can gain mundane wealth so easily. That being said, teleport spells are used for luxury goods, as evidenced by Aurora's.
Flying ships and spelljammers are, so far at least, fairly closely kept secrets as far as the populace of Faerun is concerned. I would also make spelljamming helms and whatever makes Halruuan skyships stay aloft require some exotic materials that are controlled by power groups. Halruua in the latter case, of course, and various off-world groups in the former. Even spelljamming powers on Toril, the way I see things at least, have a limited supply of helms and are reusing the same material when they make new ships. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 24 Apr 2012 18:05:43 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 18:13:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Less implausible when you consider that many of the affluent nations in Faerūn have no access to ocean waterways. The Mediterranean opened sea trade to half a world, while the landlocked Sea of Fallen Stars simply does not connect to Kara-Tur. The closest ports for Cormyr would be Baldur's Gate or the Shining South, still requiring a great deal of overland movement. More inland nations like Thay would have to ferry goods across land and water several times, staging them across the Gulf of Luiren and Alamber Sea or the Shining Sea and Vilhon Reach. Major overland transport seems unavoidable unless you just happen to live somewhere like Waterdeep.
Indeed. And overland trade is unfortunately necessary in areas of Faerun.
But is is not necessary for Shou Lung. That great empire can get what it wants from Faerun without the tedious overland journey if only someone would get off their fundament and sail there from Durpar or somewhere.
And once the canal to the Nagaflow is finished, the Inner Sea will connect to the Lake of Steam, which in turn means that Durpari ships can reach everywhere. On one hand, much tougher competition for places they've had sole hand for long. On the other, they now reach more than twice the potential customers. On balance, a good thing for Durpar.
If I were a chaka-owner in Durpar, I'd be trying my level best to convince my fellows to invest in a canal there, even if we had to buy a government and city with it.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I personally feel that sea travel in the Realms is more dangerous than in our world. Ships of the Realms have to face all the same sorts of problems and pirates as ships did on Earth ... but they also have to contend with very real storm gods, sea monsters, spellcasters, and even aquatic attackers. Sure, these things can be friendly, helpful, and defensive as well, but a ship can only take so much abuse before it sinks and sunken ships equate to total losses where a wagon caravan might have managed to escape with only partial losses.
I don't doubt that it is more dangerous. But then, so is land-based travel, and yet the world of the 1300s DR in the Realms has international trade at a level that Earth never knew until the 19th century.
As long as the rewards are high enough, danger doesn't prevent trade. So what if 'merchant' and 'sailor' have death rates comparable to 'mercenary'? At least the people sailing into danger for trade grow rich if they survive, something mercenaries have rarely done. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 18:46:15
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One thing nobody has mentioned is Shou-Lung's VERY LARGE Spelljamming Fleet.
Those ships alone could be to Faerun and back again in a single day...
...just saying. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 20:25:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
One thing nobody has mentioned is Shou-Lung's VERY LARGE Spelljamming Fleet.
Those ships alone could be to Faerun and back again in a single day...
...just saying.
Which is why, in order for the economic model of the world to make any sense at all, these spelljamming vessels have to be monstrously expensive to operate or so strategically vital that keeping knowledge of them secret is considered worth almost any amount of money.
Which is why I'll have spelljamming helms be all but impossible to obtain on Faerun, due to the machnication of unspecified off-world concerns.
The Kara-Turan fleet might be using centuries old helms, with quirks that make it near-certain death to activate one. Which would account for why they rarely consider using these vessels.
If spelljamming is practical at all, in the setting, almost all lower-tech methods of shipping become impractical. Since I don't want that, I can't allow easy and cheap spelljamming around on Toril. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 20:32:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
One thing nobody has mentioned is Shou-Lung's VERY LARGE Spelljamming Fleet.
Those ships alone could be to Faerun and back again in a single day...
...just saying.
Which is why, in order for the economic model of the world to make any sense at all, these spelljamming vessels have to be monstrously expensive to operate or so strategically vital that keeping knowledge of them secret is considered worth almost any amount of money.
Which is why I'll have spelljamming helms be all but impossible to obtain on Faerun, due to the machnication of unspecified off-world concerns.
The Kara-Turan fleet might be using centuries old helms, with quirks that make it near-certain death to activate one. Which would account for why they rarely consider using these vessels.
If spelljamming is practical at all, in the setting, almost all lower-tech methods of shipping become impractical. Since I don't want that, I can't allow easy and cheap spelljamming around on Toril.
I simply don't use Spelljamming any longer. Especially because the Shou-Lung fleet is actually quite impressive and militarily capable in even other spheres. Unfortunately, the fleet from Shou-Lung is not that expensive to maintain.
To use spelljamming at all negates this fact, and I would rather avoid "space" in my game...so to me, there is no Shou-Lung Spelljamming fleet because there is no Spelljamming in my own Realms.
Now...back to your top notch stuff!  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 21:12:55
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Spelljamming screws-up a lot, which is also why I don't use it. 'Flying into fantasy space' should be Victorian-era steampunk, at best. Loved Space: 1889... hated SJ (although I did buy most of the books, just to steal stuff).
Also, there is a sea-portal to Kara-Tur right in the Dragonmere. I believe it was featured in The Yellow Silk, IIRC. I used that as one of the portal-pairs in my own CKC article (it is stringently controlled by the Shou gov't, and only recently discovered, which is the only way it makes any sense at all).
And then you have the Markers of Bezentil (UE, pg.124). There are just TOO MANY 'short-cuts' in a fantasy setting - especially FR - for normal, historic types of long-haul trade to be plausible. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Apr 2012 21:13:17 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 21:16:46
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| Most of Kara-Tur's spelljamming fleet is probably occupied with spelljamming matters. It might represent massive capability in mercantile terms, yet be entirely and acutely inadequate in terms of maintaining an effective military presence in Realmspace and beyond. Perhaps a handful of lesser spelljamming vessels are used sometimes for very lucrative business in Faerūn, but such trade can be served well enough through conventional methods and the spelljammers could trade even more exotic goods with even higher profits across other worlds throughout and beyond Realmspace. Perhaps Kara-Tur enforces an interstellar smokepowder monopoly of sorts, or collects only the most precious pearls scattered across the skies, seeks unique otherworldly magics, or even has offworld colonies ... these things can be far more lucrative than the usual trade stuff Faerūn offers (trade stuff which regular merchants will regularly import without spelljammers anyhow). |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 21:44:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Spelljamming screws-up a lot, which is also why I don't use it. 'Flying into fantasy space' should be Victorian-era steampunk, at best. Loved Space: 1889... hated SJ (although I did buy most of the books, just to steal stuff).
I'm fine with it, assuming it's as costly as real-world space travel and not something individuals can do at a whim. If it's literally astronomically expensive and risky, it can coexist with normal ships and caravans. After all, in our world, we have jet planes, but it isn't normally economical to ship anything but the most time-sensitive luxuries in them. Bulk cargo on Earth still relies on ships and overland trade, even with our fantastic technology.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Also, there is a sea-portal to Kara-Tur right in the Dragonmere. I believe it was featured in The Yellow Silk, IIRC. I used that as one of the portal-pairs in my own CKC article (it is stringently controlled by the Shou gov't, and only recently discovered, which is the only way it makes any sense at all).
In my campaign, no goverment is willing to allow unrestricted traffic through any portal opening in their lands, because it will eventually lead to an outer planar invasion.
Occasional use is one thing, but heavy traffic quite another.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And then you have the Markers of Bezentil (UE, pg.124). There are just TOO MANY 'short-cuts' in a fantasy setting - especially FR - for normal, historic types of long-haul trade to be plausible.
As I noted, you can't use the published D&D stats for any kind of portals. They are too cheap and too reliable.
If massive traffic through portals poses a cumulative risk of fraying the anchors and opening the way to something not bargained for at all, then the fear and caution of power groups around portals becomes much more understandable. And the twice-a-year opening time of the Markers of Bezentil becomes a sensible precaution, not simply a terrible business decision.
The thing is, every canon source tells us that overland and waterborne trade is vitally important and profitable. If portal-borne and/or flying trade was as easy as the mechanics of D&D would have it, this could not remain true.
A choice between the mechanics or the canon, it is. I choose the canon descriptions and view the mechanics as being a simplified gist, meant for the use of adventurers, not an economic model. After all, the gold piece prices in D&D books don't work at all, so it's no surprise that the magic system doesn't make economic sense either.
It's the DM's job to add little details that translate the imperfect mechanics to match the world as it is described. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 24 Apr 2012 21:49:04 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 22:10:25
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lets not forget Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue as well.
She has her own Faerun-spanning portal network, just for merchandise, and probably has expanded to other continents/sub-settings by now as well.
Think on how cheaply she can ship Shou silk compared to others. Zakhara would also be a logical choice for a store.
I doubt the Amnish Gov't would allow her to open a shop in Maztica, though.
Also, one has to wonder why the Thayans didn't set-up a similar network with their enclaves (unless strictly prohibited to do so by the local authorities). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Apr 2012 22:12:10 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2012 : 22:43:16
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Just to add another variable, because so far it's been a discussion about the quality of goods driving price...
Origin and "name brands" can significantly elevate price. Is the Gap, or Abercrombie, or D-squared, tremendously better in quality than Wal-mart or Ross? Why does my Birkin bag and my Prada jacket make smile more than my (way, way) cheaper alternatives?
Imagine the noble who can idly comment, "oh, we're importing Shou silk for the gowns this year."
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 01:06:23
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Brand-recognition mass consumerism on such global scale is an invention of modern society, and even today there are still people who reject the notion.
Certainly there have always been eclectic scholars, collectors, dilettantes, and aristocrats willing to commission inflated prices for all sorts of strange and wondrous things, and craftsmen capable of producing masterpiece commodities (like books, musical instruments, jewellery, weapons, and suits of armour) have always been able to command outrageous premiums for their skills.
But the overwhelming majority of people in a feudal society aren't able to waste coin on exotic luxuries, they purchase the things the need from the sources they trust. Even the "middle-class" are comparatively rare and tend to emulate the trends of higher social castes, they aren't numerous or affluent enough to substantially impact market trends.
These people lived in a different time and smaller world. A craftsman took some measure of pride in only doing quality work and he would be apprehensive about selling shoddy goods - his livelihood depended on his customers, the very same people he'd eventually have to purchase things from himself. Selling leaky barrels, flimsy carpentry, flawed cookpots, and brittle horseshoes would be the mark of an inferior craftsman who would soon be out of work. One "brand name" was much the same as any other, a punchstamped hallmark or painted signature which only guaranteed the item was good quality. Anything beyond that became the realm of legendary masters sought out by clients and patrons ... and for good reason, because their brands were absolute promises of superior products. Compare an original Stradivarius to a violin made by a lesser luthier. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 01:12:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Just to add another variable, because so far it's been a discussion about the quality of goods driving price...
Origin and "name brands" can significantly elevate price. Is the Gap, or Abercrombie, or D-squared, tremendously better in quality than Wal-mart or Ross? Why does my Birkin bag and my Prada jacket make smile more than my (way, way) cheaper alternatives?
Imagine the noble who can idly comment, "oh, we're importing Shou silk for the gowns this year."
If no one but the noble himself can tell whether or not he's telling the truth, such demand will not be common or particularly lucrative. Few people, as I said above, enjoy spending money merely to impress themselves. They want to share their sense of smug self-satisfaction with the world. In order to do that, the world must know the difference between the expensive and the cheap brand.
In other words, in order for a particular class of good to enjoy a prestige position, suitable for conspicious spending, the class must be somehow distinguishable from other, similar goods. That means that Shou silk has to be clearly distinct from Sembian silk, preferably at a glance, but at the very least upon inspection, so that there is little risk of anyone who matters failing to notice that you do buy the more expensive brand.
Remember, if it's too hard to distinguish, the noble who realises this and simply spends more on things that can be distinguished, such as better jewelry or dyes, will appear far more splendid for his budget. And since nobles are generally in a constant contest of influence, taste and wealt, with conspicious spending being a method of demonstrating all three, the nobles who realise that you can say that you are wearing x silk while paying only for y silk will be at an advantage.
This is the reason I say that in order for there to be demand for Shou silk for year after year, it must be clearly distinct and perceived as superior to Sembian silk. Theoretically, the perception is less important than reality, but given the fickleness of fads, it is most plausible that such a cachet will remain because there is an element of truth in it.
For a thought exercise in our world, imagine how far you'd get selling a name brand from a designer whose fame has faded, while continuing to demand three times the price of a similar one without his name on it. Or imagine anyone paying several times the price of an identical dress if no one could possibly tell which was the designer one.
In our world, companies that enjoy brand recognition spend a lot of time, money and energy trying to maintain their reputation for excellence. Indeed, that is the only alternative open if you wish to create a perception of excellence without the reality. To be fair, though, many of the 'name-brands' of our world do use materials that are far superior to cheaper articles. Compare the durability of Church's Oxfords with a pair of off-brand leather shoes.
As I believe I mentioned above, while the real world has examples of certain goods acquiring a cachet more or less inexplicable, like tulips in one memorable instance, such frenzies tend to be brief and the crash afterwards has a sobering effect. Shou silk looks to have been sought-after for quite a while in the Realms, for far longer than any such period of inexplicable fashion has held in our world. If it is considered better than Sembian silk, enough so that people pay several times the price, it is probably because it is better.
This is not incontrovertible so, of course, because there are snobs who will buy a much more expensive item for no better reason than because they can, but it can be safely asserted that these people are a far smaller potential market than the alternative, i.e. anyone who wishes to impress the quality.
It's the difference between someone who spends extra to get the finest champagne, because he knows that the truly important people will notice what he serves (even if many won't), and a person who will pay a dethroned monarch living in exile somewhere an obscene amount of money to walk a dog inside a private garden, where no one will ever see him do it. One person is playing an elaborate social game for advantage and prestige, as well as perhaps being a snob and/or enjoying good champagne. The other is simply at his wits end at how to spend all his money and has taken to eccentricity*, contriving increasingly pointless and elaborate ways to spend it.
Buying silk from Shou Lung is silk of equal quality exists in Sembia falls under the latter. If the Sembian silk is not of the same quality, however, it will also be bought by others than enourmously wealthy eccentrics and is therefore worth importing in some quantity.
*It is well known that at beyond a certain yearly income, insanity is technically impossible. One merely acquires eccentricity in increasingly charming amounts. Royal blood, then, is a sovereign cure for eccentricity as well as anything else that in mere mortals would be perceived as mental illness. A royal personage merely cultivates an unwordly demeanour, as well as lacking the caution of common men. Some happy royals succeed to the extent of having clearly managed to leave this world behind entirely, even while apparently still walking around in it. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 25 Apr 2012 01:13:48 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 01:34:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
lets not forget Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue as well.
She has her own Faerun-spanning portal network, just for merchandise, and probably has expanded to other continents/sub-settings by now as well.
Think on how cheaply she can ship Shou silk compared to others.
Hmmm... a teleport spell requires a high-level wizard and risks losing the entire shipment. It's quick, but is it cheap?
Teleport Object is 7th level, meaning a 13th to 14th level caster. You'll lose at least 2% of shipments, meaning that you must effectively self-insure for quite a lot of money if you're shipping expensive stuff. You'll also need permanent magical items, the teleport beacons, at each place you plan to operate.
In my campaign, everything stocked by Aurora that can conceivably be shipped by other methods uses them. Only special orders are teleported and this adds thousands of gold to the total order, much the same as when you have your order flown in by special plane today.
Given that the final price of the Shou silk is not thousands of gold pieces for enough material to make a simple dress, I'd hardly call it the most economical method.
That being said, you could no doubt make money with matched teleport circles, beacons and all, in Shou Lung and Faerun. It's just rather hard to set up and you need someone willing and able to do it. I'm perfectly willing to accept that no one has as yet successfully done it in modern Faerun.
And I'd also be willing to rule for my own campaign that the Mandarinate, considering foreign influences synonymous with 'evil', is entirely against any such plan. Shou Lung is rather strongly based on historical China and it is difficult to overstate the rabid xenophobia and isolationism of many, if not most, of their regimes.
This extended into the end of the 19th century, mind you, while the rest of the world was busily modernising and growing ever wealthier trading among themselves. As a result, China went from world superpower to desolate wasteland riven by internal conflict for the next century or so, with occasional periods of mere poverty and peace.
A Shou Lung without rabid xenophobia might be interesting, but it wouldn't be anything close to China and it would be very different from the written Shou Lung in the Kara-Tur boxed set, where it is made rather obvious that educated upper-class Shou consider themselves the only real people and their civilisation the only civilisation.
Normal folk from border provinces might not share these prejudices, but they are not the ones who have the power to grant or deny licences to foreign mages who want to build magical transport gates. The border province folk are probably the ones who provide middle men who trade with Faerunian merchants, though.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Zakhara would also be a logical choice for a store.
I doubt the Amnish Gov't would allow her to open a shop in Maztica, though.
She has to have a 13th+ level wizard who is willing to physically travel to any potential location. That's quite a requirement and probably puts a damper on any urge to expand.
After all, anyone who is willing to work for her can probably be better put to use actually employing his magical talents for the months it would take for him to travel half-way across the world. She'll only expand when the demand in places where potential new hires have already been has begun to lag.
And there's no sign of that.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Also, one has to wonder why the Thayans didn't set-up a similar network with their enclaves (unless strictly prohibited to do so by the local authorities).
I can imagine that the local authorities would perceive it similarly as a modern one would respond to a request to set up an experimental fast-breeder nuclear reactor to make weapons-grade material on their ground.
Portals fail, often, and the result is often a terrible extraplanar invasion. Everyone fears this possibility. While teleport beacons are not portals, they are certainly close enough to trigger many of the same fears.
And I expect that the Thayans do not have enough 14th level wizards to go around for all the enclaves. That being said, I've established the existence of a secret teleport circle of this very kind in at least two enclaves and my PCs suspect that the Thayans are, indeed, working diligently to establish them in all enclaves, without asking or telling the local authorities anything that might alarm them.
Their eventual goal? Who knows? |
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Edited by - Icelander on 25 Apr 2012 01:37:11 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 03:33:40
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Although you (and I, and probably almost every other experienced DM) imposes house rules for teleportals and such stuff, the published game rules do allow for some methods like teleport without error which are pretty much 100% safe and reliable. Okay, there are sometimes risks involving weird multi-dimensional storms, divine interference, and other such extraordinary circumstances ... but I wouldn't be surprised if teleporting was statistically safer than other methods of travelling the same distance (at least that's the argument quoted in Star Trek).
Mages powerful enough to cast teleport usually have better things to do with their time and magic than flashing across the continent every day to load up on as much silk as they can carry, let alone spending all the time and effort in the marketplace trying to haggle out a heavier handful of silvers (or paying half the profits toward employing a merchant instead). Not very adventurous, heroic, villainous, or magical ... just dull and ordinary, might as well quit role-playing and get a job. I think most mages would prefer to save that teleport spell for important or emergency use, and they'd rather just blast or loot something to seize their share of the hoard. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 14:54:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Just to add another variable, because so far it's been a discussion about the quality of goods driving price...
Origin and "name brands" can significantly elevate price. Is the Gap, or Abercrombie, or D-squared, tremendously better in quality than Wal-mart or Ross? Why does my Birkin bag and my Prada jacket make smile more than my (way, way) cheaper alternatives?
Imagine the noble who can idly comment, "oh, we're importing Shou silk for the gowns this year."
If no one but the noble himself can tell whether or not he's telling the truth, such demand will not be common or particularly lucrative. Few people, as I said above, enjoy spending money merely to impress themselves. They want to share their sense of smug self-satisfaction with the world. In order to do that, the world must know the difference between the expensive and the cheap brand.
Look, both you and Ayrik seem to believe that other nobles couldn't, or wouldn't want to, assess the origin of Shou silk. I'll remind you both that this isn't even a remotely realistic version of medieval or Renaissance Earth, but the Realms. Nobles here, particularly in Cormyr and Waterdeep, have spies and magic for everything. Especially where trade, finance, and one-upmanship are core to their life and goals.
In the Realms, because of spies and magic, a good portion of the time nobles will know -exactly- what other nobles are purchasing. Everyone keeps tabs on the others, if they're any good at keeping their own position and finances.
Frankly, I think it's more than a little bizarre that you're suggesting "the world wouldn't know" Shou silk when it's seen. Even if that were the case, which I doubt, you still have the merchant caravans who brought it in, the sales transactions along the way, other goods from the same origin point, and magical means of identifying and verifying everything. I'll grant you that Joe Commoner wouldn't know Shou silk from some other kind, but a) he doesn't buy silk anyway, and b) he doesn't have a staff, a network of spies, and doesn't monitor trade patterns with magical means.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 20:39:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Look, both you and Ayrik seem to believe that other nobles couldn't, or wouldn't want to, assess the origin of Shou silk. I'll remind you both that this isn't even a remotely realistic version of medieval or Renaissance Earth, but the Realms. Nobles here, particularly in Cormyr and Waterdeep, have spies and magic for everything. Especially where trade, finance, and one-upmanship are core to their life and goals.
In the Realms, because of spies and magic, a good portion of the time nobles will know -exactly- what other nobles are purchasing. Everyone keeps tabs on the others, if they're any good at keeping their own position and finances.
Frankly, I think it's more than a little bizarre that you're suggesting "the world wouldn't know" Shou silk when it's seen. Even if that were the case, which I doubt, you still have the merchant caravans who brought it in, the sales transactions along the way, other goods from the same origin point, and magical means of identifying and verifying everything. I'll grant you that Joe Commoner wouldn't know Shou silk from some other kind, but a) he doesn't buy silk anyway, and b) he doesn't have a staff, a network of spies, and doesn't monitor trade patterns with magical means.
You're ignoring the fact that if Shou silk doesn't have features that make it at least different and ideally arguably superior to Sembian silk, other nobles who find out that you are spending a fortune on it will not have any reason to be impressed by your conspicious consumption.
Nobles generally respect shrewdness and good taste* in addition to wealth. Just spending a lot of money to get the same thing you could get for much less marks you as a dupe, not an aesthete.
The person who pays champagne prices for fizzy coloured water is not showing off his wealth, he's showing off how easy he is to fool. If Sembian silk is just as good as Shou silk, buying Shou silk would be the same kind of solecism.
Other nobles won't think that your silk tunic is more impressive if you pay someone to drive the material for a wide circle around Saerloon six hundred times before you have a seamstress make it. If Shou silk was functionally identical to Sembian silk, buying it would be an example of paying someone to travel a long way and then coming back with the same thing you could have bought at the corner store.
That's not the kind of conspicious consumption that makes others admire your taste, wordliness and wealth.
The noble who spent his 'impress peers' budget on luxuries that are actually visible to them will leave the poor dumb noble who spent his on paying for a long boring vacation for some underling in the dust.
This is why Shou silk has to be distinguishable from Sembian silk for it to make sense that there is a steady demand for it.
*Defined as being ahead of the curve in following approved rules of what is cool and trendy. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 22:13:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
You're ignoring the fact that if Shou silk doesn't have features that make it at least different and ideally arguably superior to Sembian silk, other nobles who find out that you are spending a fortune on it will not have any reason to be impressed by your conspicious consumption.
You've never seen Shou silk, it's not real.
I've made a perfectly legitimate point, but you're welcome to stick to your beliefs about this imaginary fabric's quality.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Trade with Kara-Tur...Why?
