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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 01:50:53
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I've only started reading non-Drizzt novels 5 years ago. I've read about 15 Realms novels per year since then, and more than 50 novels later (almost all bought in the first year), I see the end of my must-read list. I had about 30 years to cover, with a few recent material here and there, so it took me some time. Now that I am about to buy novels again, I started shopping around. Imgine my surprise when I realised that the follow-up to the excellent Downshadow, Shadowbane, is eBook only.
What did I miss? I've read a couple of 4e novels, and none of them had such cruel treatment. Didn't they read Downshadow? Did they think it wasn't worth a paperback release? Are they insane?
Ebooks have merit, and good for you if you are satisfied with them. I love technology, I'm en electrical engineer, so I'm usually biased FOR everything turning electronic. Books are not the case, eBooks have no charm, eBooks do not make a nice librairy (yes, it counts for something). eBooks do not get old and dusty, with a folded corner here and there, feel like they lived through something, like the reader did when he went through it.
They are not even much cheaper. I know what a pdf download is worth in terms of cost in data transfer (not much) and I have a good idea what a paperback is worth (not much, but much more than a pdf). It is a shame that a marketing decison to increase profit (a reasonable goal) comes at the detriment of something as fundamental as the pleasure of reading a printed book.
So I'm stuck, in one hand I want to read all that Erik, and other authors too, has to offer. On the other, I don't want to send the message that it is OK to go eBook-only, that I will pay up anyway.
Damnit, raise the price if needed, but allow me my printed book.
Rant over.
And just to be clear, I think eBooks are great for people who use them. Go ahead and release an ebook for every novels. I'm only against the eBook-only policy.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 02:59:00
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What did you miss?
Much lively discussion about what Shadowbane heralds by being published only in eBook formats, initially contained to Erik's Shadowbane E-book Release scroll.
In a nutshell: WotC seems to firing random shots in the dark, they decided to release some promising products (like Shadowbane) as eBook-only while kneejerking other eBook/pdfs out of existence or onto hardcopy for fear of piracy. Shadowbane is basically being deployed as a test platform to feel out the eBook market, Erik has apparently campaigned to make it available in print ... about 6 months have passed without any change.
The way I see it, WotC has been burned by piracy before and now has an unrealistic paranoia about it. They're hesitantly exploring the big proprietary (secure) eBook formats to measure product exposure, sales volume, and overall project cost compared to equivalent print copy. If judged successful, then the world of paperback FR novels might soon be at an end. The print industry is apparently byzantine and cut-throat to the extreme, companies like WotC are very vulnerable if they can't handle print production and logistics in house. The big eBook makers are no less predatory and parasitical, companies like WotC are very vulnerable because they usually aren't very savvy on tech. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 03:09:32
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I see, I feared as much. To me, and I suppose many scribes here feel the same, I'd rather pay 10$ for a printed book than having a free, legal or not, electronic book. Piracy hit them hard I agree, for sourcebooks, which is a completely different situation. You do not read a source book like a novel, and surely not as often. Sourcebooks are much more useful and viable in my case in pdf format, and they are MUCH cheaper.
Apples and oranges I'd say.
I'll go look into the scroll you are referring to, thanks. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 03:57:10
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| Ha, my opinions about this are pretty strong, and actually aligned with yours although I suspect for different reasons. But the discussion in that scroll covers a lot of different viewpoints, including Erik's. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 09:11:02
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I couldn't agree more. Ebooks are fine for those who like them but its unfair to those who enjoy holding an actual book in their hands to be forced to buy books in a platform that they don't like.
While I personally have read a few ebooks I do not consider those books to be part of my collection and took no pride in those purchases and so have stopped doing so. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 18:46:24
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Yeah, I used to be in the same boat. But honestly, I was able to give up the print book pretty quickly for eBooks once I was given a Kindle Fire as a gift. All of my print books from the last 20 years just take up a whole closet. I tried selling them at the local book stores, but no one wanted them. Then I tried donating them, but still, no one wanted them. But I can't bring myself to throw them away. So they sit in my closet, taking up space. I'd love it if I had a whole room as a dedicated library, but I'm not that rich.
My only real continuing gripe about eBooks is their price. I can stomach the $6.39 that Amazon charges for paperbacks. But I still refuse to pay anything more than that. The publishers still ask a premium for hardcover releases, which is absolutely insane because you aren't getting anything more in the eBook than you would in the paperback release. So I am happy to wait them out on those releases.
And if WoTC thinks that going to a "locked down" eBook format will stop piracy then they are delusional. It's just as easy, if not easier, to pirate anything released electronically rather than on hard copy. |
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Lirdolin
Learned Scribe
Germany
194 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 18:57:37
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Hey all you lucky people.
Stop complaining that you can't read the books in print (something I prefer myself) and be grateful that you can read them AT ALL!
I'm told by amazon.de here in Germany, that I'll be able to order Eye of Justice as an e-book in september, but still can't order Shadowbane, or any of the books related to the 'Rise of the Underdark' event. If Wizards are to change something, they should start with making their products available to everyone again. Maybe they could earn more money this way. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 00:56:51
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Well met, all,
I have been diligently working as best I can to get my books into your hands. WotC is looking into print on demand, for those who absolutely want a paper version, as well as trying to resolve their international distribution problem. The trick here is that it takes time. A LOT of time.
(And believe you me, as frustrated as you are about the wait, it's NOTHING compared to how I feel about it.)
The more you agitate and advocate for what you want in the interim--on WotC's boards, on twitter, on Facebook, on Amazon--the better.
I have been told directly that in order for a novel to see paperback release, sales need to justify it. This is, of course, a catch-22--sales are limited when you go to e-book only, and OF COURSE they're lower than they would have been with a hard copy option as well.
So yes. I can't guarantee that if lots of people order the ebook in the hopes of getting a paper option eventually will get what they want. But that's seriously one of the only options.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 02:02:51
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Thanks Erik, and I feel your pain. In fact, one of the reason I started this scroll was to express how unfair (IMO) this treatment is to your work. Not to bash against WotC, but I have not agreed upon many of their marketing decisions for a few years now. If novels were no longer being printed, this decision would be worse for me than the Spellplague or the time jump (yup, I'm going there).
Had I seen the other scroll, I wouldn't have started this one, because it seems everything has been said by people more eloquent than me.
So as much as I'd like to support your work (and read it too!), I will not buy an electronic device. If their decision to go eBook-only is met with good sales, I fear it will mean printed copies are no longer required. |
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hawkytom
Seeker
USA
82 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 20:00:40
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| I agree with basically everything Kilvan said and have the same worries! Thank you Erik for trying to get a printed copy happen! I'd love to buy it so I can finally read it! I'm even willing to buy limited-edition type higher quality/more expensive versions of these e-Book type releases! |
Any Lone Wolf fans? Old school gamebooks from the 80's? They are being re-released/updated, and new books 29-32 being written: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/novels/lonewolfsolo.html
Forgotten Realms BOOKS owned: ALL of them! (ebooks?...NONE! ever) |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 20:33:21
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I can't speak for everyone else, but I take pride is seeing my gargantuan sized collection of Forgotten Realms novels...even if they do take extra damage for being classified as "Gargantuan."  An E-book does not fit into the collectible sense for me at all. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
Edited by - Artemas Entreri on 10 Apr 2012 20:33:43 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 21:21:34
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
I can't speak for everyone else, but I take pride is seeing my gargantuan sized collection of Forgotten Realms novels...even if they do take extra damage for being classified as "Gargantuan." An E-book does not fit into the collectible sense for me at all.
Ah, but there's prolly more electrons in a single ebook than there are pages in all of your FR novels! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 21:26:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
I can't speak for everyone else, but I take pride is seeing my gargantuan sized collection of Forgotten Realms novels...even if they do take extra damage for being classified as "Gargantuan." An E-book does not fit into the collectible sense for me at all.
Ah, but there's prolly more electrons in a single ebook than there are pages in all of your FR novels!
Lol, electrons are everywhere! |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 21:31:23
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Lol, electrons are everywhere!
Well, except between other electrons/neutrons, where there is nothing at all. This is about 99% of all space.
Ok, physicist out
One day I'll tell you about how time is going backwards at the center of an atom. |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2012 : 23:37:25
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Just to let you know, I followed Erik's advice and sent a (polite) message to the WotC customer service, saying that I am prevented from buying e-book-only Realms novels because I don't have an e-book-reader and even if I had, I couldn't because I'm living outside the US. I received a quick and unexpectedly constructive reply, saying that it's important for them to know that customers would like them to produce physical copies and that my message would be forwarded to the relevant department. I guess that's all one can ask for realistically.
So go ahead and write similar messages to WotC - if they receive many enough, they might re-consider their strategy. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 04:53:27
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I expressed this sentiment in Elaine's thread...and I'll say it again. Ebooks should be an option, not the only option. In other words, it's fine if they release ebooks so long as they also release paper books (be it before, after, or simultaneously). |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 11:44:03
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| Yeah, that's what the OP and most scribes here said as well. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 20:06:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
WotC is looking into print on demand, for those who absolutely want a paper version, as well as trying to resolve their international distribution problem.
That is very good news, indeed. |
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Captain Grafalcon
Learned Scribe
Brazil
129 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2012 : 18:45:28
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| This whould be excellent for international readers, like me. I have a kindle and I am quite beneficied to read e-books from novels whose paper format didn´t come to my country. Not all FR novels are distrubuted to Brazil, making this more practical.Soon I will read Elaine novels on e-book format, and this is just great! However, paper versions will never lost its charm. |
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phranctoast
Learned Scribe
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2012 : 19:13:22
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| I would like E-book codes to come with new paperback and hardcover books. That way, I could make my collection digital with little hassle. It's not like the bandwidth would set anyone back on files less than that of spam email. |
Currently reading: Spider and Stone by Jaleigh Johnson: Sequel to Mistshore |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2012 : 08:13:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Gavinho
This whould be excellent for international readers, like me. I have a kindle and I am quite beneficied to read e-books from novels whose paper format didn´t come to my country. Not all FR novels are distrubuted to Brazil, making this more practical.Soon I will read Elaine novels on e-book format, and this is just great! However, paper versions will never lost its charm.
Unfortunately, the current e-book solution is not excellent for international readers like you and me because (all? most?) Realms e-books are not available outside the US (see the discussions in several threads in this section).
However, as Erik Scott de Bie has pointed out in another thread ( http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16519 ):
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
As I've mentioned in the other thread, WotC is currently working on the international distribution question.
You should definitely advocate your views to WotC: post on their site, send them emails, post on social media, etc. The ebook-only push is an experiment, and they need feedback to know how effective it has been.
Cheers
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Edited by - Thieran on 11 May 2012 08:14:44 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2012 : 14:20:49
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quote:
Originally posted by phranctoast
I would like E-book codes to come with new paperback and hardcover books. That way, I could make my collection digital with little hassle. It's not like the bandwidth would set anyone back on files less than that of spam email.
That seems reasonable to me too. Heck, most Bluray movies come with a free digital copy included. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Captain Grafalcon
Learned Scribe
Brazil
129 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2012 : 18:35:25
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| Thanks for the explanation Thieran, you´re right.For the moment I´ll just continue to import in paper format, and use the kindle to other literature! |
"Surely you recognize that armies carrying banners are almost always thieves—until they win."
Jarlaxle, mercenary leader of Bregan D'aerthe. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2012 : 12:49:23
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@ Thieran
Yeah that's very true even Amazons overseas Kindle offerings are minuscule compared to what is available in the west so forget about the smaller sites. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2012 : 13:09:48
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
WotC is looking into print on demand, for those who absolutely want a paper version, as well as trying to resolve their international distribution problem.
That is very good news, indeed.
I missed this earlier, but I join Elaine in welcoming this as good news.
Because as it stands now, with Erik's next Shadowbane-centric e-book release only a few months away... I'm afraid that, as I'm living well outside the electronic distribution method Wizards' currently employs, the only way I'll be able to enjoy the book is vicariously through those of my US friends who have purchased it.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 05:13:48
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
WotC is looking into print on demand, for those who absolutely want a paper version, as well as trying to resolve their international distribution problem.
That is very good news, indeed.
A good alternative, I suppose. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 16:59:56
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| I'm hoping for a paperback omnibus release once Erik's trilogy is done (the first of many I hope). I won't hold my breath though |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 15:33:17
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Here's a great answer to the question of ebook availablity from P. Nielson Hayden, posted on John Scalzi's blog www.whatever.com.
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Claudio Morais asks: “Why is the ebook version not made available worldwide considering there are no physical constraints that may apply for the hardcopy version?”
This question gets asked all the time. Not surprising, since it is in fact a perverse outcome of inputs which, considered individually, don’t necessarily seem perverse.
The entity that published REDSHIRTS last week, Tor Books, has the exclusive right to sell the book in the English language in the US, Canada, and the Philippines, and a non-exclusive right to sell it in English in all other countries of the world–_excluding_ the UK and a long list of Commonwealth and former-Commonwealth countries. A list which includes South Africa.
John and his agent could have sold us the “World English” package of rights, which would entitle us to publish the book in English everywhere–we would certainly have been willing to offer for that–but instead they opted to take the slightly riskier path of selling us rights only in our core market, reserving the “UK-and-a-bunch-of-Commonwealth-and-former-Commonwealth-countries” package to themselves, in order to try to sell it separately to a British publisher. (This is a slightly riskier path for most genre writers who aren’t top-level New York Times bestsellers, because British publishers don’t really buy very much SF and fantasy from the US below that sales level. This wasn’t always the case but it certainly is now.) After a period during which I imagine John’s agent shopped the book around to various British publishers (I don’t know the details because it’s, literally, not my business), they accepted an offer from Gollancz. However, that deal was concluded just a month or two ago, so it was vanishingly unlikely that Gollancz was going to get their edition out simultaneously with ours. I believe their edition is scheduled for November.
(Footnote here: An exact inverse of this situation is why Tor’s edition of Hannu Rajaniemi’s debut novel THE QUANTUM THIEF appeared in May 2011, several months after Gollancz’s edition in September 2010.)
The more interesting question you ask is: Why can you, in South Africa, buy a copy of the US REDSHIRTS hardcover from (for instance) bn.com in the US, but you can’t buy the US e-book edition? Why do online retailers pay attention to your address and credit card when assessing your eligibility to buy an e-book, while being willing to ship any edition of any print book anywhere?
The answer is a little arcane, but bear with me. The fact of the matter is that, when it comes to traditional printed books, neither the retail booksellers nor their customers (that’s you) are party to the contracts between John and his various publishers. Our contract with John says that _we_ won’t sell our editions of his book outside the territories in which John grants us exclusive and non-exclusive rights. Gollancz’s contract with John says that _they_ won’t sell their editions of his book outside the territories in which John grants them exclusive and non-exclusive rights. But if Amazon buys a bunch of copies in the US and someone in South Africa says “Hi, here’s my credit card, send me one,” no contractual agreement has been violated. Amazon owns those books, not us. They can do what they want with them, including selling them to people in South Africa, Shropshire, or the moons of Jupiter. Amazon is not John Scalzi, Tor, or Gollancz. You are not John Scalzi, Tor, or Gollancz.
(Another footnote: It has been perfectly possible and legal for regular people in the US to buy British editions for decades longer than the Internet has existed. For years one of the absolutely standard ads in the back pages of the NEW YORKER was a little panel ad offering “BRITISH BOOKS BY PHONE.” There’s nothing new about this.)
But the agreements under which online retailers sell our e-books include restrictions, imposed by us, which require them to keep track of where orders are coming from, and require them to refuse to sell to individuals who seem to be trying to purchase from outside the areas in which we have the right to sell. Effectively, in this case, Amazon (or bn.com, or Apple, or Kobo, or whoever) _is_ a party to our agreement which John. So they can’t sell you that e-book, because we don’t have the right to sell copies in South Africa.
(Two footnotes. First, yes, everyone knows that there’s a limit to how thoroughly anyone can police these restrictions. Get a VPN connection that makes you look like you’re online from a country where we have the rights, and a credit card with a US or Canadian address, and you can probably buy the ebook with no problem. Second, the agreements I referred to concerning ebook sales, between us and the online ebook retailers, have nothing in particular to do with any current arguments over “agency models” versus other models of ebook retailing. These restrictions were in place before the “agency model” and they’re in place now.)
Does this sound like a lot of bullshit gobbledegook? Probably. Is it true? Absolutely. Did it happen because everyone rolled out of bed one morning and said “Let’s make global ebook retailing baroquely complicated, because annoying our customers is fun”? No. Does the book industry need to be rethinking how it handles this stuff? Yep. Is it? I think it’s starting to. Meanwhile, you wanted to know why–and that long explanation is the “why.”
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Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 13 Jun 2012 15:34:32 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 16:00:29
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If I understand this correctly, a publisher needs to purchase licensing/rights to have permission to sell the book? And consequently, books might not be available to retailers in certain regions? Readers are basically unable to obtain books unless the publisher decides it's enough of a strong seller to splurge in bidding for more expansive rights?
To be sure it's business and everything of any value can ultimately be treated as a commodity. But to me it seems inane that an author wouldn't want the most widespread exposure possible ... and yes many authors are in it for the money of course, but still if they sell fewer copies they'll generate less revenue. By extension, it seems to me that authors wouldn't choose to deal with agents and middlemen who install these sorts of self-serving barriers. True, authors (like anybody else) sometimes can't get everything they want, and authors in niche markets will suffer even more restrictions.
The internet has enabled authors and readers to interact and be keenly aware of each others' status in real-time. Readers expect some sort of access to any books the authors produce - yet many are only able to see what amounts to being foreign commercials. I say the publishing "industry" needs to figure this all out or step aside or be replaced by a system which works. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2012 : 21:50:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I say the publishing "industry" needs to figure this all out or step aside or be replaced by a system which works.
Well, it's a little more complicated than that. Self-publishing is all well-and-good, but there are many different routes which have substantial pros and cons, which can require considerably more financial investiture than some authors are willing to make. Going with Kindle Direct Publishing (KDP), for instance, may be self-publishing that gets you a good royalty rate (between 30%-70% depending on how you price the book), but that essentially shackles your book to Amazon, and distribution of the ebook is based on their policies, not necessarily your will.
As someone who's looked into the options, it seems to me there's a huge amount of time and resources that goes into doing the things a publisher is better equipped to do: create an entire e-book line, secure editing services, do marketing/promotion, and provide a print-on-demand system that doesn't frustrate readers or bankrupt you. Not that it can't be done--obviously a lot of authors can manage it. It's just not as easy as one might think.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2012 : 16:10:40
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| Well, its good to know the legal stuff behind eBook availability, even though it does look like just another form of limiting consumer freedom. Hopefully WotC can sort the international availability of their eBooks for people living outside the US. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Rant on eBooks
