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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 19:41:52
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If the weave was unraveled, did the shadow weave remain intact? If not did the shadow weave users suffer similar problems?
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 20:44:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-The Shadowweave "unraveled" during the Spellplague, which is why, like the Weave, it does not exist in the 4e Forgotten Realms.
Is there any record about how this affected Shar? Did she benefit? Did some of her casters lose their mind as well?
The FRCG is very sketchy on these things.
I know I can make it up myself, but I am just wondering if there is any lore, since my 4e D&D scholarship is remiss.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 21:12:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-The Shadowweave "unraveled" during the Spellplague, which is why, like the Weave, it does not exist in the 4e Forgotten Realms.
Is there any record about how this affected Shar? Did she benefit? Did some of her casters lose their mind as well?
The FRCG is very sketchy on these things.
I know I can make it up myself, but I am just wondering if there is any lore, since my 4e D&D scholarship is remiss.
I don't recall any mention of Shar being impacted. And since the Shades certainly weren't slowed down by losing the Shadow Weave, I'm guessing there was no impact on their patron goddess. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 22:46:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
Is there any record about how this affected Shar? Did she benefit? Did some of her casters lose their mind as well?
The FRCG is very sketchy on these things.
I know I can make it up myself, but I am just wondering if there is any lore, since my 4e D&D scholarship is remiss.
-Presumably, Shar would have been weakened, as the loss of the Shadow Weave would mean the loss of the worship (or whatever you want to call it) of those who were otherwise unaffiliated with her, but drew their power from the Shadow Weave.
-I would personally say that, no, Shadow Weave magicians did not go crazy. We know the majority of the upper echelons of the Shade Enclave used the Shadow Weave, and they seem no worse for wear after everything is said and done. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 22:56:09
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Well, Shar was on her way to building a powerbase amongst spellcasters, so not seizing the Weave (which was probably her plan in bringing about the Spellplague) AND losing the shadow weave threw a monkey wrench in her powerbase.
On the other hand, Shade managed to weather the Spellplague pretty well, and obviously her church has done pretty well for the last century, so probably other than retarding the process of building her power, she didn't suffer unduly.
As for her casters not being driven crazy, I speculate that because Shar was there to try and keep it all together, the Shadow Weave didn't collapse as violently as the normal Weave, which was more powerful anyway. The Weave blew up like an atom bomb, the Shadow Weave more like a fizzling firecracker.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 23:03:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
As for her casters not being driven crazy, I speculate that because Shar was there to try and keep it all together, the Shadow Weave didn't collapse as violently as the normal Weave, which was more powerful anyway. The Weave blew up like an atom bomb, the Shadow Weave more like a fizzling firecracker.
Considering the people we've seen established as worshippers of Shar and users of the Shadow Weave, if any of them were driven utterly, completely irrevocably mad, how would you know? |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 23:34:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Considering the people we've seen established as worshippers of Shar and users of the Shadow Weave, if any of them were driven utterly, completely irrevocably mad, how would you know?
-An interesting point. Mass insanity among her followers would certainly be seen by other deities, and mortals as a sign of weakness. Spiriting them all away somewhere and keeping such a thing a secret- and, with insanity already being a touchy subject in such medieval cultures, the insane were often dealt by just hiding them away somewhere- would both prevent this, and be in character for Shar. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 23:50:18
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| I merely meant that the low affect, limited intuition, paranoid delusions, grandiose delusions, pathological narcissism, illusory superiority, neuroses and a range of other characteristics associated with Shar worshippers, to say nothing of their frequent symptoms of Electra or Odedipusal complexes, ensure that driving them insane is like taking coal to Newcastle. |
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Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 00:51:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
On the other hand, Shade managed to weather the Spellplague pretty well, and obviously her church has done pretty well for the last century, so probably other than retarding the process of building her power, she didn't suffer unduly.
Shar did enjoy having one major advantage that most other deities did not have. That of her advanced age, and the fact that she was there at the "Creation-point" of the Realmsphere.
While the Spellplague was a disastrous cataclysm for both the mortal and divine worlds, I would think that any deity capable of involvement in the creation-event of an entire crystal sphere, should have both the necessary understanding and endurance to weather the overall collapse of a major component internal to that crystal sphere. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 01:12:39
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Actually, outside of Rivalen (and presumably all other shades), every spellcaster worshipping Shar that I'm aware of from the fiction is indeed quite utterly, irrevocably mad. Some hide it well, some even hide it from themselves, but there is no real question about their insanity.
[Edit]
Although now that I reflect upon it, Rivalen might be lucid and intelligent, but it could be argued that he is insane as well. He's not really human, technically speaking, so the depths of his psychology would ultimately be alien to our (human) understanding. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 07 Mar 2012 01:18:58 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 01:43:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
If the weave was unraveled, did the shadow weave remain intact? If not did the shadow weave users suffer similar problems?
In Undead, Book II of The Haunted Lands trilogy by Richard Lee Byers, Szass Tam used a dimensional window to see the state of both the Weave and the Shadow Weave. And what he saw discouraged him: both sources of magic were unraveled.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
On the other hand, Shade managed to weather the Spellplague pretty well, and obviously her church has done pretty well for the last century, so probably other than retarding the process of building her power, she didn't suffer unduly.
I once postulated that Shade's survival after the Spellplague was partly because of Shar's help and primarily because of Telamont's contingencies. Telamont was a living witness to the Fall of (the First) Netheril, the cause of which was the 'malfunction' of the source of magic that sustained their mythallars. It just makes sense that, having learned a lesson or two about the unreliability of the two Weaves, he had long ago endeavored and found an alternate source of magic to power his city's mythallar in the event the Shadow Weave unravels or its caretaker (Shar) dies a horrible death.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
As for her casters not being driven crazy, I speculate that because Shar was there to try and keep it all together, the Shadow Weave didn't collapse as violently as the normal Weave, which was more powerful anyway. The Weave blew up like an atom bomb, the Shadow Weave more like a fizzling firecracker.
Cheers
I wouldn't call the Shadow Weave less powerful than the Weave. In Return of the Archwizards, it was deemed otherwise. Though Melegaunt clarified that it's not exactly more powerful than the Weave, just different. And bias aside, I agree with his assessment.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Although now that I reflect upon it, Rivalen might be lucid and intelligent, but it could be argued that he is insane as well. He's not really human, technically speaking, so the depths of his psychology would ultimately be alien to our (human) understanding.
Anyone who's lived for more than two millenia is hardy sane. Couple that with being 'touched' by a dark goddess. A sane man would never kill his mother who did nothing but care for and love him.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Shar did enjoy having one major advantage that most other deities did not have. That of her advanced age, and the fact that she was there at the "Creation-point" of the Realmsphere.
While the Spellplague was a disastrous cataclysm for both the mortal and divine worlds, I would think that any deity capable of involvement in the creation-event of an entire crystal sphere, should have both the necessary understanding and endurance to weather the overall collapse of a major component internal to that crystal sphere.
An very good point.
To add to that, she was around when Mystryl sacrificed herself and the Weave temporarily shut down. So she knew the extent of the effects of such demise. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 07 Mar 2012 01:53:32 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 02:02:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I once postulated that Shade's survival after the Spellplague was partly because of Shar's help and primarily because of Telamont's contingencies. Telamont was a living witness to the Fall of (the First) Netheril, the cause of which was the 'malfunction' of the source of magic that sustained their mythallars. It just makes sense that, having learned a lesson or two about the unreliability of the two Weaves, he had long ago endeavored and found an alternate source of magic to power his city's mythallar in the event the Shadow Weave unravels or its caretaker (Shar) dies a horrible death.
-It would pan out, but it's worth noting that when the Weave went offline the first time, and then when it was semi-offline during the Time of Trouble, some magical items and artifacts continued to work properly. So, he wouldn't necessarily have to, if the widespread 'inertion' of magic among the Shadovar was not witnessed. It would make more sense for them to investigate such contingencies given what they went through, though, I agree. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 02:54:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I once postulated that Shade's survival after the Spellplague was partly because of Shar's help and primarily because of Telamont's contingencies. Telamont was a living witness to the Fall of (the First) Netheril, the cause of which was the 'malfunction' of the source of magic that sustained their mythallars. It just makes sense that, having learned a lesson or two about the unreliability of the two Weaves, he had long ago endeavored and found an alternate source of magic to power his city's mythallar in the event the Shadow Weave unravels or its caretaker (Shar) dies a horrible death.
-It would pan out, but it's worth noting that when the Weave went offline the first time, and then when it was semi-offline during the Time of Trouble, some magical items and artifacts continued to work properly. So, he wouldn't necessarily have to, if the widespread 'inertion' of magic among the Shadovar was not witnessed. It would make more sense for them to investigate such contingencies given what they went through, though, I agree.
Some magical items, yes, but not the mythallars. All of them failed. Which stood to reason, given that they drew large amount of magic from the Weave. They are like batteries that have to be fully charged always, otherwise they cease to support the entire weight of the enclave they're placed in. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 03:33:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I wouldn't call the Shadow Weave less powerful than the Weave. In Return of the Archwizards, it was deemed otherwise. Though Melegaunt clarified that it's not exactly more powerful than the Weave, just different. And bias aside, I agree with his assessment.
I tend to disagree. The Shadow Weave is, as the name suggests, a shadow of the true Weave. It's less there, illusory, more ephemereal, or whatever you want to call it. The space between the walls, the gaps in the floorboards. Inherently less solid. And as far as creating effects goes, this would be echoed in the effects of it in general. Particularly skilled or powerful spellcasters might be able to overcome some of these downsides, either by focusing on illusory magics, using what power they have well, or simply by being so powerful that they can pump enough "solidity" into the effect that it has the same energy as an actual spell. But that would vary based on the individual in question.
This is borne out, I believe, by something Ed said once (I think) about how spellfire will rend and destroy Shadow Weave enchantments even faster than it destroys the regular Weave, and that a spellfire user could not absorb energy from the Shadow Weave, since there's nothing there to absorb (i.e. it would "go into" you, but it's just a shell and thus wouldn't grant you any true power). |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 19:33:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I once postulated that Shade's survival after the Spellplague was partly because of Shar's help and primarily because of Telamont's contingencies. Telamont was a living witness to the Fall of (the First) Netheril, the cause of which was the 'malfunction' of the source of magic that sustained their mythallars. It just makes sense that, having learned a lesson or two about the unreliability of the two Weaves, he had long ago endeavored and found an alternate source of magic to power his city's mythallar in the event the Shadow Weave unravels or its caretaker (Shar) dies a horrible death.
-It would pan out, but it's worth noting that when the Weave went offline the first time, and then when it was semi-offline during the Time of Trouble, some magical items and artifacts continued to work properly. So, he wouldn't necessarily have to, if the widespread 'inertion' of magic among the Shadovar was not witnessed. It would make more sense for them to investigate such contingencies given what they went through, though, I agree.
Some magical items, yes, but not the mythallars. All of them failed. Which stood to reason, given that they drew large amount of magic from the Weave. They are like batteries that have to be fully charged always, otherwise they cease to support the entire weight of the enclave they're placed in.
-All magic stopped working during those 30 second to 6 minutes where Mystra was dead (depending on which definition of a 2e round is used). When magic started working again, some magical items continued working, while others were rendered inert. Some mythallars survived the Fall of Netheril, while others did not.
-Depending on which version of the event- given that there are three different canon versions- you take as the truth, the Shadovar were already on the Plane of Shadows before Fall of Netheril. So, still, the widespread 'inertion' of magic among the Shadovar might not have been witnessed. Experimentation on mythallars, based on the knowledge that many failed during the Fall and never began working again might not have been implemented if the need to was never discovered. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 20:34:08
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I'm not sure the two Weaves were even of the same nature. Shar used Mystra's as a model, but I think she went about things differently.
Personally, I can't wait until we know more about FR's deeper secrets (if we ever do) - there is a lot there that isn't making sense. I have a pretty good idea of what the Weave really is, and what it isn't, but the Shadoweave just confuses the hell out of me. Hopefully, we will understand things better when Ed finishes his current series. Its the insanity-angle that really intrigues me... and why we didn't hear about any shadow-casters going insane. That right there tells me that their nature was quite different (as different as the two forms of magic in DS/Athas, I'd wager - two approaches to achieve the same results).
I am going to go out on a limb here and say it is the nature of evil itself that doesn't allow Shar's Weave to ever achieve the same level of power and acceptance as Mystra's - there is a certain amount of... sacrifice... necessary to access and use them. Do you think folks like Szass Tam and Manshoon are willing to give up anything? (especially if I am right about what they have to sacrifice).
Evil is self-defeating, because it cannot stand together. This was the true power of the Chosen and the Harpers, even though they were vastly outnumbered on every front. In solidarity there is strength.
Evil cannot even trust itself. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Mar 2012 20:35:14 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 03:26:10
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-Given that it doesn't exist anymore, I wouldn't get your hopes up on something shining a light on just what exactly it was, and what it meant. We're still waiting for such elaborations on things that were a lot more important in the grand scheme of the world.
-In a way, though, if some future book/whatever did do just that, I do have to say: it would eliminate a lot of the mystique that the Shadow Weave possesses. I still dislike that so much of the Crown Wars has been detailed, for that exact reason. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 08 Mar 2012 03:27:04 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 03:44:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
This is borne out, I believe, by something Ed said once (I think) about how spellfire will rend and destroy Shadow Weave enchantments even faster than it destroys the regular Weave, and that a spellfire user could not absorb energy from the Shadow Weave, since there's nothing there to absorb (i.e. it would "go into" you, but it's just a shell and thus wouldn't grant you any true power).
It's been noted before, and I'll it say again. Telamont once erected a shield against silverfire and it held. And it was not some illusory magic, but a real, actual shadow magic shield. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 03:54:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
Experimentation on mythallars, based on the knowledge that many failed during the Fall and never began working again might not have been implemented if the need to was never discovered.
Basic survival is Telamont's utmost priority. World domination just comes second. How can one wish to conquer the world if he can't protect his own realm? Magic is fickle and unstable, or rather, those who take care of it are. Hence, it's only logical that Telamont, who possesses a certain level of foresight and prudence, had researched on alternative sources of magic, ready to act as backup power supply should both Weaves fail.
I recall Ayrik's thoughts about Telamont's mini or portable weave-like devices that Telamont and his archwizards might have created as backups for their mythallar. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 03:57:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Basic survival is Telamont's utmost priority.
-I would agree. I think this fact would put research/development into "alternative mythallars" (or, really, any other kind of magical item) on the back burner, given that we know that the Shadow Enclave was very regularly at war (to varying degrees) with the native denizens of the Plane of Shadows for hundreds upon hundreds of years. Given that, on the Plane of Shadows, the shadow powers that they eventually developed wouldn't particularly help them much against other shadow creatures that had the same powers, the threat posed by the denizens of the Plane of Shadows would be even greater.
-Not that I am disagreeing with the premise, but...You would also figure, if they were, they would have come up with something after hundreds and hundreds of years. To the best of our knowledge, they didn't. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 08 Mar 2012 03:58:16 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 04:34:52
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He's got his sons and a number of equally powerful servants---so that they can carry his orders to win their many wars while he and a few selected lackeys were busy experimenting on alternative magic sources, which would not only ensure the health of their mythallar, but could also help them eliminate their enemies faster. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 13:20:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
He's got his sons and a number of equally powerful servants---so that they can carry his orders to win their many wars while he and a few selected lackeys were busy experimenting on alternative magic sources, which would not only ensure the health of their mythallar, but could also help them eliminate their enemies faster.
Not to mention, Telamont and at least one of his sons have a pretty good reason to eventually want to betray Shar and a backup power source would come in handy at that point. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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phranctoast
Learned Scribe
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 13:27:30
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I was always under the impression that since Shar was responsible for Mystas death and knew her death could cause catastrophe she compensated by being ready with contingencies in case the weaves unraveled.
Mystras has always proven to have some deal of foresight especially when she knows she's going to be killed (what is it 3 times now...). It shouldn't be hard to grasp that Shar also has some similar foresight and prepared here followers accordingly. |
Currently reading: Spider and Stone by Jaleigh Johnson: Sequel to Mistshore |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 14:05:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It's been noted before, and I'll it say again. Telamont once erected a shield against silverfire and it held. And it was not some illusory magic, but a real, actual shadow magic shield.
I don't see how that changes anything. I already pointed out that even though the Shadow Weave is less "real" than the Weave, a spellcaster could still erect a shield that could defend against even the most powerful Weave effects, as long as they were willing to pour enough power into the spell.
The way that silver fire reacts to the Shadow Weave in that trilogy also makes it questionable, since if that shield was purely Shadow Weave, there should have been a giant hole in reality where the impact happened. I'd be more likely to believe that the shield was a construct formed from epic magic, rather than just the Shadow Weave, and if epic magic draws more from raw magic than through the Weave or Shadow Weave, then it also makes sense that it would not suffer from the same downsides/weaknesses, at least not to the same extent. Considering that Storm's silver fire created a rip in the fabric of reality back at the end of the first book when a similar situation to Telamont's occurred, I think the theory carries some weight. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 14:25:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
This is borne out, I believe, by something Ed said once (I think) about how spellfire will rend and destroy Shadow Weave enchantments even faster than it destroys the regular Weave, and that a spellfire user could not absorb energy from the Shadow Weave, since there's nothing there to absorb (i.e. it would "go into" you, but it's just a shell and thus wouldn't grant you any true power).
It's been noted before, and I'll it say again. Telamont once erected a shield against silverfire and it held. And it was not some illusory magic, but a real, actual shadow magic shield.
It held in the sense that they annihilated each other. At least I recall a big boom when silver fire went against the shadow weave. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you dont want to move to the new Realms, that doesnt mean theres anything wrong with either you or the old Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches wont fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 16:19:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
He's got his sons and a number of equally powerful servants---so that they can carry his orders to win their many wars while he and a few selected lackeys were busy experimenting on alternative magic sources, which would not only ensure the health of their mythallar, but could also help them eliminate their enemies faster.
-Which doesn't change much. These would be the people leading the defenses of their city, in addition to other miscellaneous tasks- exploration, etc. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 16:35:16
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Mythalars are artifacts.
Therefor, by their very nature, each one is different (like becoming a lich - the process is different for each individual).
Iouluam (sp?) may have invented the first one, but it isn't an assembly line. Each archmage built upon his work, and took different directions. No two mythalars should be identical for that very reason - greater artifacts are unique, even when there are groups of similar items (like the Spheres of Dragonkind).
By the same token, the Shadoweave is based upon the Weave, but not identical to it (aside from the obvious differences in power-source). One was an accident, and the other was purposely designed with certain goals in-mind. Aside from the names and the way they are utilized, there should actually very little in the way of similarities between them.
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Originally posted by Bakra
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Originally posted by Dennis
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Originally posted by Eldacar
This is borne out, I believe, by something Ed said once (I think) about how spellfire will rend and destroy Shadow Weave enchantments even faster than it destroys the regular Weave, and that a spellfire user could not absorb energy from the Shadow Weave, since there's nothing there to absorb (i.e. it would "go into" you, but it's just a shell and thus wouldn't grant you any true power).
It's been noted before, and I'll it say again. Telamont once erected a shield against silverfire and it held. And it was not some illusory magic, but a real, actual shadow magic shield.
It held in the sense that they annihilated each other. At least I recall a big boom when silver fire went against the shadow weave.
You guys should note that Silverfire is NOT identical to Spellfire - Ed has said as much.
3e rules may have made them the same (I wouldn't know - crunch isn't my forte'), but they are not the same.
If I had to guess, I would say Silverfire is pure Weave (Arcane) Magic, and that Spellfire was pure Raw Magic - the power above and beyond the Weave (and Shadoweave). There also several other types, with their own colors - blue fire, red fire (which may be the same as Hellfire), even a 'black fire'. Each probably taps into a different plane/power source. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Mar 2012 16:45:21 |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 18:09:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Mythalars are artifacts.
Therefor, by their very nature, each one is different (like becoming a lich - the process is different for each individual).
Iouluam (sp?) may have invented the first one, but it isn't an assembly line. Each archmage built upon his work, and took different directions. No two mythalars should be identical for that very reason - greater artifacts are unique, even when there are groups of similar items (like the Spheres of Dragonkind).
By the same token, the Shadoweave is based upon the Weave, but not identical to it (aside from the obvious differences in power-source). One was an accident, and the other was purposely designed with certain goals in-mind. Aside from the names and the way they are utilized, there should actually very little in the way of similarities between them.
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
This is borne out, I believe, by something Ed said once (I think) about how spellfire will rend and destroy Shadow Weave enchantments even faster than it destroys the regular Weave, and that a spellfire user could not absorb energy from the Shadow Weave, since there's nothing there to absorb (i.e. it would "go into" you, but it's just a shell and thus wouldn't grant you any true power).
It's been noted before, and I'll it say again. Telamont once erected a shield against silverfire and it held. And it was not some illusory magic, but a real, actual shadow magic shield.
It held in the sense that they annihilated each other. At least I recall a big boom when silver fire went against the shadow weave.
You guys should note that Silverfire is NOT identical to Spellfire - Ed has said as much.
3e rules may have made them the same (I wouldn't know - crunch isn't my forte'), but they are not the same.
If I had to guess, I would say Silverfire is pure Weave (Arcane) Magic, and that Spellfire was pure Raw Magic - the power above and beyond the Weave (and Shadoweave). There also several other types, with their own colors - blue fire, red fire (which may be the same as Hellfire), even a 'black fire'. Each probably taps into a different plane/power source.
heh, I know the difference. I specifically remember Silverfire from a Chosen going boom when it hit some Shadow Weave magic. Then again I did have a few shots of whiskey in me when I read the series.  |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you dont want to move to the new Realms, that doesnt mean theres anything wrong with either you or the old Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches wont fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 18:39:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
heh, I know the difference. I specifically remember Silverfire from a Chosen going boom when it hit some Shadow Weave magic. Then again I did have a few shots of whiskey in me when I read the series.
In my 4e Worldwalkers game, one of the characters, the paladin Tristan, is a "last Chosen of Mystra" sort of character. He actually wields silverfire which has a chance of going wild (using the 2e wild magic tables), particularly when he "pushes" it (i.e. spends healing surges, i.e. his own vitality to make the blast more effective).
A recent development has infused my character (shadar-kai swordmage named Vayne) with the last remnants of the Shadow Weave. They have some sort of connection now--his silverfire fuels her shadowfire (and maybe vice versa). He can push her to blast shadowfire, and she can drain healing surges out of him to power her own blasts. We're currently working on heading to Shadowdale where we can consult with a certain mad old mage to get some answers.
(This also causes interesting problems in their previously-established romantic relationship.)
That's all non-canonical, obviously, but it's kind of neat to think about.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2012 : 20:20:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
heh, I know the difference. I specifically remember Silverfire from a Chosen going boom when it hit some Shadow Weave magic. Then again I did have a few shots of whiskey in me when I read the series.
-No, you're not misremembering. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Did the shadow weave suffer during the spellplague
