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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Feb 2012 : 22:14:14
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I know that there is at least one unit (Unicorn Riders) of the elven army composed solely of female warriors, how are lady elves regarded in general when it comes to joining the Green Isles defenders (pre-4e)? In a couple of Elaine's books it seems as if they are treated with high regard. For example, Arilyn and her antecedents include several female warriors. But, I recall one passage regarding Elaith's past and relationship to Amnestria where it is considered improper for her to be sparring with the guard. Is this more to do with her status as princess than with her being of the softer sex? What would be the proportion of male to female fighters amongst your more typical elven martial forces?
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Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 04 Feb 2012 22:15:15
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2012 : 22:48:10
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| If I recall correctly elven men aren't much bigger or stronger than elven women, so when it comes to martial culture women have more representation than they would among humans. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2012 : 23:13:47
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| There's no gender bias among the militaries of Faerun's human forces, why wouldn't this extend to their demihuman counterparts as well? |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2012 : 01:23:16
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The only time I've seen really biased society in FR novels regarding women fighting were in barbarian*/viking** societies. I'd say most of the Realm's females have equity and respect in military forces.
* Wulgar
** The island in Tangled Webs
In Erik's novels, I think most officers are women. He might have a thing for women with power  . |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2012 : 02:29:15
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The original post is answered, but wasn't there also a scene with Araevin and Ilsevele in "Forsaken House"? 
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
There's no gender bias among the militaries of Faerun's human forces, why wouldn't this extend to their demihuman counterparts as well?
IMO it's another way around. Heartlands got more ladies in action as one of the elven influences. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 05 Feb 2012 02:29:36 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2012 : 19:39:34
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Elves are not gender-biased at all.
Females find magic more to their liking*, and males find martial disciplines more to their liking, so you do have more of one then the other in certain 'professions', but this is more about personal choice then about social stigmas.
The fiction does not represent the reality (of FR) - it represents the individual tastes of the writer. For instance, one can assume that in 4e their almost no powerful females, but the fact is, no-one (official) felt like show-casing them. They are still there, off-screen.
I think we also see more male Wizards because men are more likely to be boastful in this regard (Freud would say magic is just a fantasy phallic symbol). Women are more discreet (some would say 'sneaky'). Only the stupid ones would be 'flashy', and stupid mages don't live long.
Ergo, what we see in the fiction is not an accurate portrayal - it is just one tiny piece of a greater whole, much of which we never get to see. This applies to all things - for instance, the mistaken assumption that the Zhents were the Realms 'Keystone Cops', when the sources clearly illustrate they have had far more successes then failures. We only get to see their failures because in novels, the 'good guys' have to win. The fiction is badly skewed, and should be disregarded when trying to discern sociopolitical 'patterns'.
*My reasoning is this: Females, because they are capable of creating life within themselves, can tap into that 'primal magic' that I believe is both the 'Raw' magic the Netherease discovered, and that used in High Elven Magic (which I feel they learned from the Fey). To take this a step further, 'Primal (Raw) magic is the stuff of creation - it is life. This is why I think females are more likely to gravitate to that path then males (in Elven society). Its also why so many Elven females at least dabble in the Divine as well (their 'nurturing' aspect).
Males, on the other hand, are more likely to 'be physical', because of their evolutionary role as 'protector', and therefore are (usually) more comfortable with following a more physical path then females.
So its not a social thing, its sort of a 'Wiccan thing' - males and females are assigned separate roles in the universe, and it is 'hard-wired' into their DNA. Personal choice still exists (Free Will), as in all things. Fortunately, FR humans (and humans on most other fantasy worlds) are not as gender-biased as we are in the RW, so a lot of this applies to humans as well (and other demi-humans/humanoids). Ergo, its more a matter of what most are drawn to, as opposed to any sort of peer-pressure.
All IMHO, of course. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Feb 2012 19:53:05 |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2012 : 05:00:26
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| In this interpretation of males and females having different magic, how would transgendered individuals factor in? Their bodies may not match up with their minds, so from where does the difference in magic spring? Mind or DNA? Don't worry, this isn't a "politically-correct" trap, I'm just curious as to how it'd work. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2012 : 05:46:10
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| Drop that line of conversation now, before both of you just start making some really offensive comments both in and out of Realmslore. |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2012 : 05:49:18
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Wow, I'm not so sure it's offensive to discuss issues like this. I think shoving it under the carpet is more offensive. I mean unless there's some forum rules against this, I don't see the harm.
Edit: I'll drop this conversation in the name of not getting too "real world topics" heavy, which is against forum rules, but I resent the notion that either Markus or I were about to get offensive towards trans- individuals. |
Edited by - Eladrinstar on 06 Feb 2012 05:57:18 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2012 : 06:11:58
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I think Arivia noted that, Eladrinstar, when she said before.
In any event, the first half of your edited commentary is on of the mark. It's best simply to leave all talk of real world issues at the door. Even if your interest is purely in the Realms side of things, it's always best to check with the Moderators first about any topics that may "skim" the dictates of the site's Code of Conduct. It just makes things easier for us all. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2012 : 06:29:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Females find magic more to their liking*, and males find martial disciplines more to their liking, so you do have more of one then the other in certain 'professions', but this is more about personal choice then about social stigmas.
I may not be the best judge of these creatures which I (most often than not) consider annoying. But where I encounter them, I find that claim hardly on the mark. There's almost an equal number of males and females who practice the Art. Even the Evareskan High Mages are mostly males. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2012 : 06:48:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
Wow, I'm not so sure it's offensive to discuss issues like this. I think shoving it under the carpet is more offensive. I mean unless there's some forum rules against this, I don't see the harm.
Edit: I'll drop this conversation in the name of not getting too "real world topics" heavy, which is against forum rules, but I resent the notion that either Markus or I were about to get offensive towards trans- individuals.
I'm willing to explain (off-board) if you want, but starting off any conversation about gender with discredited evolutionary psychology and an appeal to romanticized naturalism is just setting things up for terrible failure. From my perspective as a Women's Studies major, it was already pretty offensive. |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2012 : 07:43:40
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| It's been policy since I came here nine years ago to keep conversation of real-world controversial topics out of the Keep. Candlekeep didn't have a topic on whatever war, election, or sporting event; it doesn't need one on gender politics either. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2012 : 08:00:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
It's been policy since I came here nine years ago to keep conversation of real-world controversial topics out of the Keep. Candlekeep didn't have a topic on whatever war, election, or sporting event; it doesn't need one on gender politics either.
Then why you make it one? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2012 : 10:55:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Imp
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Drop that line of conversation now, before both of you just start making some really offensive comments both in and out of Realmslore.
And the Censorship Police strikes again. Candlekeep is getting more and more a place where you can't state your opinion or ask a question without someone making a fuss. It starts to get annoying.
And seeing commentary like this any time anyone asks for courtesy or for not going into a sensitive topic is even more annoying.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Imp
Learned Scribe
231 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2012 : 15:51:00
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I specifically stated, at the end of my post, it was all "IMHO".
That's how I run things in my games - your mileage may vary. And just because we don't see a lot of female casters in fiction, doesn't mean there aren't a lot of female casters (I thought I made that evident.)
I would apply this across the board; Red Wizards are known to 'abuse' their apprentices, so I doubt many female mages ever make it very far in their society (unless they allow themselves to become 'available', if you catch my drift). For all we know, female apprentices may out-number males two-to-one... at first (males being what they are, they would be more prone to act against females who 'show them up' then another male).
So when I say 'magic', I mean Wizardesses, Sorceresses, witches, Druids, priests, etc, etc - because they are able to create life within themselves, I theorize that it makes it easier for them to perform other acts of 'creation'. Just my take on it, is all. They use the same thing in the Wheel of Time Series. I actually can't think of any canon male Elven priests (although I am sure there are plenty).
Bards are a different story - I think their mix of athleticism (physical) and creativity make them equally split amongst males & females (in fantasy - in reality I believe they were almost always males.... in the west). As a DM, I would say this applies to transgender personages as well (they would not feel more prone to one or the other). You could take this a step further and even say that if this theory holds true, then transgender persons would make the best Bards (if you were inclined to do so in your game world - I doubt these situations actually come up much).
All based on how I run things and how I see these things 'play out' in most fantasy I read. Nothing canon, and certainly nothing Realms-canon. Also, I don't personally feel either sex is better then the other when one applies themselves to their chosen profession - female warriors are just as good as males. Ergo, the way I feel people 'gravitate' toward one path or the other should really only apply to NPCs - PCs are always the exception, and can do whatever they want, without penalty.
If you want to see rules that are actually skewed between the sexes, check out the original Chivalry & Sorcery from FGU - men and women get different attribute bonuses (and negatives). For instance, IIRC, females got 1-2 bonus in Charisma because they are 'better looking' (I swear that was actually in the rules). Males got similar benefits in STR and CON. I can guarantee a set of rules like that could never get published these days. Strangely, in the 70's, no one batted an eye.
People with 'thin' builds also got a +1-2 on Charisma - can you just imagine the uproar that would cause if they tried that crap in D&D? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Feb 2012 15:51:31 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2012 : 16:08:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I may not be the best judge of these creatures which I (most often than not) consider annoying. But where I encounter them, I find that claim hardly on the mark. There's almost an equal number of males and females who practice the Art. Even the Evareskan High Mages are mostly males.
BEFORE the Elves came to Toril, they lived in Faerie - thats CANON.
We know of only one canon Elven priest from that time before their arrival - the priestess Bonnalurie of Angharradh. She saved them all: I think that makes her pretty damn important.
Also, Amlairuil's daughter Ilyrana was consider the "blessed by the Seldarine" (she appeared very fey-like), and she was a natural born priestess. Had she lived, it is possible she would have become the most powerful priest in Elven (Torilian) history (the novel Evermeet: Island of Elves makes this claim, when speaking of her in regards to when she first felt 'her calling'.)
So there you go - the main source of all things Elven, and the two most important divine casters are both Pristesses.
Now, the same argument could be made for Elaine as I make against the male authors - that the fiction is skewed by the personal preferences of the writer. However, in Elaine's case, I truly doubt this (once again, just a matter of opinion).
Must have said that at leas three times - walking on eggs here. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Feb 2012 16:23:35 |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2012 : 16:38:42
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| Seeing how Elaine is one of the authors who Ed has said truly "gets" his Realms, I'm going to say her interpretation of elves is accurate. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2012 : 16:47:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Imp
Demanding that scribes stop their conversation isn't a plea for courtesy.
No, but that wasn't my exact phrase (bolded for emphasis):
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And seeing commentary like this any time anyone asks for courtesy or for not going into a sensitive topic is even more annoying.
You've more than once commented on censorship and not being allowed to speak freely when asked for simple courtesy, and it grows annoying. You're not the only person who has done this, but that doesn't change the fact that asking for a little bit of consideration is FAR from censoring topics and discussion. If we were censoring things, we'd be editing or deleting posts or topics.
Until we edit one of your posts, you have not been censored, and there is no need to keep harping on it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2012 : 19:10:51
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| No one was censored. I came to the agreement to drop the topic before a mod even had to step in. |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2012 : 19:35:38
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quote:
I actually can't think of any canon male Elven priests (although I am sure there are plenty).
Severil Miritar? |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2012 : 23:41:14
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At MT.
Tired of quoting. Hehe. So I'll just go straight to the point. On the Red Wizards:
It depends which discipline were are talking about. Illusion and Divination seem to attract female wizards more than any other schools. But, as evidenced by Thay-centric novels released so far, there have been a lot of female Red Wizards that rose to greater status. In fact, four recent zulkirs were females ---Yaphyll, Dmitra, Lallara, and Mythrellan. That's half of the Zulkirate. True, there used to be few females to who made it to the supreme council in the past centuries (1e to 3e). I can only recall two that Ed listed in his pre-Szass Tam Thay. However, it didn't mean there were less competent women that time than in the present. Some, and that included liches as powerful as Szass Tam, preferred the relatively normal, uncomplicated life of a privileged, non-zulkir Red Wizard. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 01:19:03
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For what it is worth, I found Arivia's actions and attitude deeply offensive and the support of moderators for her position even more so.
She peremptorily demanded that a conversation about a Realmslore issue be abandoned because she was opposed to the views set forth in it. Citing her educational background, she appeared to hold it as an article of faith that anything someone who did not have her scholarly expertise said about the issue was certain to be offensive and ought to be stopped. She was vindicated in this belief by obsequious moderators, to all appearances eager to pander to her particular political beliefs at the expense of Realmslore discussions of other scribes.
I find this to be even more offensive in light of the fact that the original Realmslore question is a valid and interesting one, not to mention the fact that not a single scribe had done anything to even approximate a violation of even the most stringent posting policies.
There is indeed an apparent discrepancy between the idea of elven society as without social gender roles and the fact that elven princes usually have military posts and fight and train alongside their guards, but Elaith felt it would be 'improper' for Amnestria to spar with her guards.
This is not to say that elven society is obviously rigidly bound with gender roles in the manner of Victorian England. In fact, elven females can and do pursue a military career. But the fact remains that there is some perceived difference on Elaith's part, at least, between a princess and a prince when it comes to a military career.
For a GM running a game with elves in it, it is relevant to examine to what degree Elaith's views here represent a personal abberation and to what degree he is representative of some faction of elven society.
Is there currently a fashion among some elves to adopt sharply differentiated gender roles? Is this a harkening back to some earlier fashion, influence from neighbouring human cultures or is it something else? Is this a noble fad or a deep-seated societal evolution? Could it be a response to falling birth rates? Inspired by elven male jealousy toward human males?
These and others are legitimate questions and if Arivia or anyone else feels that insufficient scholarship is being brought to bear on their discussion, simple courtesy would seem to dictate a choice of ignoring the conversation altogether or, alternatively, benevolently enlightening us all with her shining intellect and astonishing education.
Asking that it be stopped because the participants do not meet her standards is not courtesy. And when moderators respond to it, they encourage a culture where there is no exchange of views or opinions at all, for fear that someone will be offended at the fact that not everyone in the world agrees with them on every conceivable subject. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 07 Feb 2012 03:34:06 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 02:11:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
She peremptorily demanded that a conversation about a Realmslore issue be abandoned because she was opposed to the views set forth in it. Citing her educational background, she appeared to hold it as an article of faith that anything someone who did not have her scholarly expertise said about the issue was certain to be offensive and ought to be stopped. She was vindicated in this belief by obsequious moderators, to all appearances eager to pander to her particular political beliefs at the expense of Realmslore discussions of other scribes.
I take exception to that, Icelander.
We're not pandering to anyone. The site Code of Conduct rules how and when we respond to situations about real-world topics. Regardless of whether such topics have Realms applicability or not, the instance they make ANY scribe uncomfortable by drawing upon real world aspects, is the instance we're forced to step in. This applies to EVERY single member of this community. Yourself included.
quote:
I find this to be even more offensive in light of the fact that the original Realmslore question is a valid and interesting one, not to mention the fact that not a single scribe had done anything to even approximate a violation of even the most stringest posting policies.
I don't recall saying that the original Realmslore question shouldn't be addressed. Only that citing real-world aspects was unacceptable according to the dictates of the Code of Conduct.
So long as there is a Realms-only basis to this discussion, and that it respects the opinions of others contributing to that discussion, then it's free to continue. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 03:25:11
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| My hat is off to you, Icelander, for being bold enough to say something in response to Arivia's post. I, too, was deeply offended by the tone of her response. It is not as if we have not seen a fair share of controversial topics here at the Keep, but because of the seemingly antagonistic tone of a great many posts these days I chose to bite my tongue. Shame on me. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 04:04:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
For what it is worth, I found Arivia's actions and attitude deeply offensive and the support of moderators for her position even more so.
She peremptorily demanded that a conversation about a Realmslore issue be abandoned because she was opposed to the views set forth in it. Citing her educational background, she appeared to hold it as an article of faith that anything someone who did not have her scholarly expertise said about the issue was certain to be offensive and ought to be stopped. She was vindicated in this belief by obsequious moderators, to all appearances eager to pander to her particular political beliefs at the expense of Realmslore discussions of other scribes.
I find this to be even more offensive in light of the fact that the original Realmslore question is a valid and interesting one, not to mention the fact that not a single scribe had done anything to even approximate a violation of even the most stringent posting policies.
There is indeed an apparent discrepancy between the idea of elven society as without social gender roles and the fact that elven princes usually have military posts and fight and train alongside their guards, but Elaith felt it would be 'improper' for Amnestria to spar with her guards.
This is not to say that elven society is obviously rigidly bound with gender roles in the manner of Victorian England. In fact, elven females can and do pursue a military career. But the fact remains that there is some perceived difference on Elaith's part, at least, between a princess and a prince when it comes to a military career.
For a GM running a game with elves in it, it is relevant to examine to what degree Elaith's views here represent a personal abberation and to what degree he is representative of some faction of elven society.
Is there currently a fashion among some elves to adopt sharply differentiated gender roles? Is this a harkening back to some earlier fashion, influence from neighbouring human cultures or is it something else? Is this a noble fad or a deep-seated societal evolution? Could it be a response to falling birth rates? Inspired by elven male jealousy toward human males?
These and others are legitimate questions and if Arivia or anyone else feels that insufficient scholarship is being brought to bear on their discussion, simple courtesy would seem to dictate a choice of ignoring the conversation altogether or, alternatively, benevolently enlightening us all with her shining intellect and astonishing education.
Asking that it be stopped because the participants do not meet her standards is not courtesy. And when moderators respond to it, they encourage a culture where there is no exchange of views or opinions at all, for fear that someone will be offended at the fact that not everyone in the world agrees with them on every conceivable subject.
I was not supporting anyone's position. I was supporting trying to keep things civil around here. We've already had the transgender topic blow up in our faces, because people could not separate real-world thoughts and opinions from Realmslore. And discussions of gender roles can get really, really sticky, as well.
We were trying to prevent this discussion from going off the deep end on an unrelated topic, thus denying everyone the chance to discuss actual Realmslore. Thanks for helping us on that particular goal. 
I, personally, am getting really tired of this. We can't ask people to be civil, because that's "censorship." We can't ask people to stay on topic or focus on Realmslore, because someone might be offended at not getting to speak on something unrelated that they feel strongly about. People agree to rules when they sign up, but gods forbid asking them to actually stick to them... It's old. It's really, really old. I'm so tired of it that I sometimes feel like just walking away from the site altogether.
Why can't we just discuss Realmslore? That's what this site is about, and it's supposedly why we're all here... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 07 Feb 2012 04:08:07 |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 05:00:51
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First, I want to say I don't think the mods censored anyone. However:
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why can't we just discuss Realmslore? That's what this site is about, and it's supposedly why we're all here...
I kinda thought I was discussing Realmslore. I wanted to know, regarding Markustay's theories on elven magic and gender differences, how transsexual and transgender elves would be affected under this theory. You know, elves who don't exist, and who aren't human, and thus aren't really relevant to anything that would be taught in a Woman's Studies class or of the other real world issues mentioned. Something that has to do with the Realms.
But I see in practice it leads to a real world discussion, so I don't see the point in continue that line of question, nor do I guess Markustay would want to be dragged into a sticky conversation. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 07:16:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
For what it is worth, I found Arivia's actions and attitude deeply offensive and the support of moderators for her position even more so.
What did you expect, really?quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
From my perspective as a Women's Studies major, it was already pretty offensive.
See? Arivia is a professional ideological worker. Everything else just follows from this and is crystal-clear.
Arguing seriously at this point is meaningless either way, even if this wasn't derailing. A real power (moderator) may either follow the conclusion-leaps with a witch-hunt proper - or, conversely, start a zero-tolerance crackdown on political spam. I see neither here, so what to discuss at all?
As you put yourself, Arivia waved "authority" she doesn't have. Not pretty? Yeah. A clue as to why ol' FIDOnet had clear rules about impersonating moderatorial force? Yeah. But otherwise, why react at all? Loud objections at this, while understandable, just add more derailing and are about as useful as writing angry letters back to spambots or joining the people scared of "cyberbullying", no? Imp apparently mistook it for the real thing and bemoaned our cruel fate. Wouldn't it be easier to simply proceed over the head of one avatar trying to depict the Ice Queen - unless and until a real moderator have something to say? Conversely, was poking The Sage over this called for? 
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
We're not pandering to anyone. The site Code of Conduct rules how and when we respond to situations about real-world topics. Regardless of whether such topics have Realms applicability or not, the instance they make ANY scribe uncomfortable by drawing upon real world aspects, is the instance we're forced to step in. This applies to EVERY single member of this community. Yourself included.
If this quite covers the matter at hand, it's easy.
I feel strongly about certain baked foods (really). Query: should this fact somehow affect all discussions of Realmslore i may see here that are remotely related to bakery? You're moderator here, yours is the decision on this. I'll follow it without objections. At most, may express some surprise if the approach to this becomes... visibly inconsistent.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And discussions of gender roles can get really, really sticky, as well.
Obviously. Just like discussions of the class warfare can get really, really sticky. We're all lucky here are no Social Justice majors ready to mount the barricades. AFAIK.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why can't we just discuss Realmslore? That's what this site is about, and it's supposedly why we're all here...
I find myself, once more, in complete agreement. quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Drop that line of conversation now, before both of you just start making some really offensive comments both in and out of Realmslore.
Underlining is mine, the rest isn't. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 14:40:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
But, I recall one passage regarding Elaith's past and relationship to Amnestria where it is considered improper for her to be sparring with the guard. Is this more to do with her status as princess than with her being of the softer sex?
I took it was because of her beeing the princess. It never occured to me that it was because she was a women when reading it.
Although think about drow, there women are taller and stronger than males. So I guess it depends on which elven (sub)race we are talking about.
About the gender bias in human military forces, I think there is one with much more men in the military forces than women. At least that was the impression I got so far, never saw any statistics in source books about it. |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 07 Feb 2012 14:44:28 |
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Gender Bias Among Evermeet's Armed Forces
