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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Oct 2011 : 21:58:28
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I was reading this wiki link (http://amiawiki.shatuga.com/index.php/Aasimar) and it seems like all of the other major Celestial races have Paragons leading them
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* The Celestial Hebdomad, rulers of the archons.
* The Court of Stars, leaders of the eladrins.
* Talisid and the Five Companions, paragons of the guardinals.
Well what about the Angels?
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Edited by - jordanz on 08 Oct 2011 22:03:35
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2011 : 22:05:30
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In 3E, Angels were a variety of good-aligned celestial servants of good-aligned deities. They usually served one specific deity or "court" (which is also a loose term).
In 4E, it's a little blurrier. Based on novels so far, "Angels" can be of varied alignment, and aren't just restricted to being good-aligned themselves, or serving good-aligned deities. Celestial servants of evil deities can also be called "Angels" depending on what they are (i.e. which subrace) and their relative level of power.
The idea behind this, I think, is because they wanted evil "new" deities like Asmodeus to have "fallen angel" servants similar to himself in some ways.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 08 Oct 2011 22:17:36 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2011 : 23:07:46
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| Yup, what Therise said is correct. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 00:04:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
In 3E, Angels were a variety of good-aligned celestial servants of good-aligned deities. They usually served one specific deity or "court" (which is also a loose term).
In 4E, it's a little blurrier. Based on novels so far, "Angels" can be of varied alignment, and aren't just restricted to being good-aligned themselves, or serving good-aligned deities. Celestial servants of evil deities can also be called "Angels" depending on what they are (i.e. which subrace) and their relative level of power.
The idea behind this, I think, is because they wanted evil "new" deities like Asmodeus to have "fallen angel" servants similar to himself in some ways.
Interesting , but don't angels lose most of their celestial benefits when they turn to evil? Can we still call them angels at this point?
I also find it in interesting that the chaotic Eladrin have unified Paragon leaders yet the Lawful Devas , Planetars, and Solars do not. One could argue though that on power alone , a Solar is already a type of paragon. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 01:53:26
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
In 3E, Angels were a variety of good-aligned celestial servants of good-aligned deities. They usually served one specific deity or "court" (which is also a loose term).
In 4E, it's a little blurrier. Based on novels so far, "Angels" can be of varied alignment, and aren't just restricted to being good-aligned themselves, or serving good-aligned deities. Celestial servants of evil deities can also be called "Angels" depending on what they are (i.e. which subrace) and their relative level of power.
The idea behind this, I think, is because they wanted evil "new" deities like Asmodeus to have "fallen angel" servants similar to himself in some ways.
Interesting , but don't angels lose most of their celestial benefits when they turn to evil? Can we still call them angels at this point?
I think you're right, in prior editions there were some losses IIRC. But in 4E (if you're using that), I'm pretty sure they don't lose powers.
quote:
I also find it in interesting that the chaotic Eladrin have unified Paragon leaders yet the Lawful Devas , Planetars, and Solars do not. One could argue though that on power alone , a Solar is already a type of paragon.
Sure, and I think depending on the deity you'd see either a formal chain of command (someone like Torm, for instance, would have Solars in charge, then lessers), but it's also kinda nice that it can be sorta open-ended. In one new novel, which escapes me at the moment, there were some devas that formerly worked for a power/deity that's now dead, and they appeared to have a fairly wide latitude as to what they did and who they allied with.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 16:29:44
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'Angels' has become an umbrella term in 4e for all outer-planer exarchs.
So now all the older 2e/3e terminology should be looked at that way; Archons, Devils (fallen angels), Devas, Gaurdinals, etc... would all be types of angels. Eladrin got their own revision, and I believe demons are corrupted elementals in 4e, which also retcons their 'cosmic grouping'.
Angels being a 'catch-all' for any type of celestial servant makes a lot of sense to me, and is one of those changes I can get on-board with. Since they never really had any defined organization as others had (the topic of this thread), that's a very easy leap for 4e to make.
Biblicaly (where angelic lore originates from), there were many different groups, including fallen angels, so one can assume canonically that 4e is actually correct in this matter. The ones we are most familiar with in D&D (and mass media) are Seraphim. The small baby-like ones are Cherubim, and they also appear in D&D, in the Mystara setting (Fylgars, under Familiars). Ergo, 'Angel' has always been a catch-all, and designers finally realized this.
Exarchs are technically angels, although because of their mortal beginnings they are usually referred to as 'Saints' in religious texts. 'Angel' simple means 'Divine Servant' in deity-speak. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Oct 2011 16:40:06 |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 17:22:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
'Angels' has become an umbrella term in 4e for all outer-planer exarchs.
So now all the older 2e/3e terminology should be looked at that way; Archons, Devils (fallen angels), Devas, Gaurdinals, etc... would all be types of angels. Eladrin got their own revision, and I believe demons are corrupted elementals in 4e, which also retcons their 'cosmic grouping'.
Angels being a 'catch-all' for any type of celestial servant makes a lot of sense to me, and is one of those changes I can get on-board with. Since they never really had any defined organization as others had (the topic of this thread), that's a very easy leap for 4e to make.
Biblicaly (where angelic lore originates from), there were many different groups, including fallen angels, so one can assume canonically that 4e is actually correct in this matter. The ones we are most familiar with in D&D (and mass media) are Seraphim. The small baby-like ones are Cherubim, and they also appear in D&D, in the Mystara setting (Fylgars, under Familiars). Ergo, 'Angel' has always been a catch-all, and designers finally realized this.
Exarchs are technically angels, although because of their mortal beginnings they are usually referred to as 'Saints' in religious texts. 'Angel' simple means 'Divine Servant' in deity-speak.
Hmm so then what is the "career" path for a Deva, Planetar, or Solar? Would that be defined by the god they serve? Also is it true under the new rules that an Angel turned to evil is still considered an Angel? Are their powers/abilities unchanged? Can they still heal, turn outsiders, and cast holy words as "evil" angels? That doesn't make much sense to me. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 17:31:50
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Hmm so then what is the "career" path for a Deva, Planetar, or Solar? Would that be defined by the god they serve? Also is it true under the new rules that an Angel turned to evil is still considered an Angel? Are their powers/abilities unchanged? Can they still heal, turn outsiders, and cast holy words as "evil" angels? That doesn't make much sense to me.
As created beings, I don't think most of them really ever "evolve" in the sense of gaining power, levels, etc. They exist, and they act according to their purpose. In that way, they're different than mortals, and more like demons/devils. That said, their purpose may change when the power(s) they serve get killed off or manage to kill/absorb another deity.
Rarely, one of the Angels might be upgraded by a deity (or exarch), but IIRC they don't gain power from experience in the same way that mortals do. Now if a group of mortals started worshipping an Angel, that might give them power in the same way that deities obtain power.
There aren't, to my knowledge, any well-developed rules in 4E for these new evil/fallen angels, other than how novels have changed the story. There may be info in a DDI article, possibly. But I'd suspect that a fallen Angel's powers would "invert" if they go from good to evil: instead of being able to banish evil outsiders, perhaps they could banish good outsiders (of lower level). And instead of summoning their good-aligned former friends, they'd summon their new evil-aligned allies. They'd cast unholy words instead of holy words... and on and on...
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 09 Oct 2011 17:38:52 |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 18:23:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Hmm so then what is the "career" path for a Deva, Planetar, or Solar? Would that be defined by the god they serve? Also is it true under the new rules that an Angel turned to evil is still considered an Angel? Are their powers/abilities unchanged? Can they still heal, turn outsiders, and cast holy words as "evil" angels? That doesn't make much sense to me.
As created beings, I don't think most of them really ever "evolve" in the sense of gaining power, levels, etc. They exist, and they act according to their purpose. In that way, they're different than mortals, and more like demons/devils. That said, their purpose may change when the power(s) they serve get killed off or manage to kill/absorb another deity.
Rarely, one of the Angels might be upgraded by a deity (or exarch), but IIRC they don't gain power from experience in the same way that mortals do. Now if a group of mortals started worshipping an Angel, that might give them power in the same way that deities obtain power.
There aren't, to my knowledge, any well-developed rules in 4E for these new evil/fallen angels, other than how novels have changed the story. There may be info in a DDI article, possibly. But I'd suspect that a fallen Angel's powers would "invert" if they go from good to evil: instead of being able to banish evil outsiders, perhaps they could banish good outsiders (of lower level). And instead of summoning their good-aligned former friends, they'd summon their new evil-aligned allies. They'd cast unholy words instead of holy words... and on and on...
I thought under the old rules there was a logical upward progression for celestials that acheived greater and geater levels of "goodness". Lantern Archon to Hound Archon to Sword Archon etc. Maybe that was just for Archons though...
Sorry to launch all these questions but this fascinates me. What happens to celestials that leans toward Neutrality but not evil? |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 19:23:55
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Hmm so then what is the "career" path for a Deva, Planetar, or Solar? Would that be defined by the god they serve? Also is it true under the new rules that an Angel turned to evil is still considered an Angel? Are their powers/abilities unchanged? Can they still heal, turn outsiders, and cast holy words as "evil" angels? That doesn't make much sense to me.
As created beings, I don't think most of them really ever "evolve" in the sense of gaining power, levels, etc. They exist, and they act according to their purpose. In that way, they're different than mortals, and more like demons/devils. That said, their purpose may change when the power(s) they serve get killed off or manage to kill/absorb another deity.
Rarely, one of the Angels might be upgraded by a deity (or exarch), but IIRC they don't gain power from experience in the same way that mortals do. Now if a group of mortals started worshipping an Angel, that might give them power in the same way that deities obtain power.
There aren't, to my knowledge, any well-developed rules in 4E for these new evil/fallen angels, other than how novels have changed the story. There may be info in a DDI article, possibly. But I'd suspect that a fallen Angel's powers would "invert" if they go from good to evil: instead of being able to banish evil outsiders, perhaps they could banish good outsiders (of lower level). And instead of summoning their good-aligned former friends, they'd summon their new evil-aligned allies. They'd cast unholy words instead of holy words... and on and on...
I thought under the old rules there was a logical upward progression for celestials that acheived greater and geater levels of "goodness". Lantern Archon to Hound Archon to Sword Archon etc. Maybe that was just for Archons though...
Hrm, I'm not sure. I do know that in one of the 2E supplements you could actually play one of the archons as a PC race. As such, they'd need to gain levels or powers with experience.
But as for the race by itself (as NPCs), I'm not sure really. Perhaps - in 3E there were all sorts of templates, so it's likely they had something for this as well.
quote:
Sorry to launch all these questions but this fascinates me. What happens to celestials that leans toward Neutrality but not evil?
Not sure about this one, perhaps they would fight for the cosmic balance rather than for good or evil specifically.
EDIT: Found it - Warriors of Heaven (1999) by Chris Perkins, that's the supplement that details archons and lots of other celestial types as playable races (PCs). 
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 09 Oct 2011 19:32:13 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2011 : 01:02:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
In 3E, Angels were a variety of good-aligned celestial servants of good-aligned deities. They usually served one specific deity or "court" (which is also a loose term).
In 4E, it's a little blurrier. Based on novels so far, "Angels" can be of varied alignment, and aren't just restricted to being good-aligned themselves, or serving good-aligned deities. Celestial servants of evil deities can also be called "Angels" depending on what they are (i.e. which subrace) and their relative level of power.
The idea behind this, I think, is because they wanted evil "new" deities like Asmodeus to have "fallen angel" servants similar to himself in some ways.
The actual idea behind it was that while good deities had angelic servants, and demon lords and archdevils had fiends, evil deities didn't have anything. They could hire demons or devils, they could use mortal or monster servants, but they didn't have anything of their own. So the decision was made to turn angels from "servants of good" to "servants of gods".
As a point, 4e Asmodeus doesn't employ angels as he has a special hatred for them, and has his own diabolic servants. Bane, on the other hand... |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2011 : 16:35:53
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The original material in the koran, bible and the torah did mention an angelic hierarchy. You had three spheres, the mortal world, the heavens and the throne of god. The mortal world was visited by the lowly messengers known as 'regular' angels. They were in turn governed by archangels (chiefs) and principalities (messengers of inspiration). The second sphere was organised in dominians (coordinators of first sphere angels), virtues (movers of celestial bodies) and powers (distributors of power and guardians of history and time). The throne of god and the third sphere was divided amongst seraphim (holy choirs), cherubim (notably distinct from 'Putti' or Cherubs; guards) and thrones (symbols of authority).
In the realms the angels or devas are similarly divided, astral devas do their gods work in the Lower Planes, monadic devas in the Inner Planes, while movanic devas are active on the Prime Material Planes. Planetars are similar to archangels while Solars are likened to dominions. Planetars and Solars are powerful, so much so that they can (in some instances) equal an avatar of a diety.
As angels or devas are by their nature servants of the gods, they don't require any more hierarchy than the ones installed by their deity. Devas do have specialities they aquire over aeons of experience; some become better judges, warriors, scouts, generals, executioners or sages than others.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2011 : 17:33:00
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| Gygax didn't want to use Christianity, D&D angels are from Theosophy. The hierarchy above solars could be galactic angels. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2011 : 07:28:01
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Exarchs should not be confused with angels. Exarchs are demigods. They are gods in their own right. They may be servitors to other gods, but they are distinct from angels. They are invested with divine rank. They have personalities. In many cases they are ascended mortals. They may act as intercessors with the gods they serve, so the term "saint" would not be inappropriate.
Angels are divine/astral creatures that serve gods. They are probably created by gods. They have no divine rank. In 4e, angels are depicted as faceless. They have no personality. They are single-minded in their purpose. In 4e, angels are defined by their function. They are usually designed for a particular task. So far we have: angels of battle, angels of protection, angels of valor, and angels of vengeance.
Historically, the term "angel" is from the Greek #7940;#947;#947;#949;#955;#959;#962; meaning "mesenger". It seems an appropriate term to apply to 4e angels. They are sent by the gods for specific purposes. Although, more often than not they are sent to fight, defend and avenge.
Gods can presumably create angels to perform other functions, and more types will likely be introduced in the future. I could see evil gods creating angels for more nefarious purposes. I could see perhaps angels of corruption, angels of seduction, angels of affliction, angels of pain, etc. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2011 : 07:40:09
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In 3e Paragons were the celestial leaders of exemplars. Paragon was the good-aligned counter-part to arch-fiends. Exemplars were the races that personified particular alignments. Archons, Guardinals, Eladrin, etc. Paragons were the top brass of those races. Practically divine in their own right. Not exactly gods, but of similar power. Whether paragons had an actual divine rank was left kind of fuzzy. In some sourcebooks paragons were given an actual divine rank, although in at least one book I remember giving them a divine rank was mentioned as optional, up to DM's discretion.
Even in 3e, angels were servants of gods. Angels never had paragons, that I recall, as their "leaders" were the gods they served. Angels in 3e could serve any good god, and were not devoted to any specific alignment (other than good.) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2011 : 00:47:59
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Well, the lines tend to blur a bit Gray. Without trying to start a RW theological debate (so what follows should be taken in D&D context), who is more powerful - the Archangel Michael, who cast down Satan, or St. Patrick, who drove the snakes out of Ireland?
According to you, Saint Patrick is more powerful, which makes little sense, in light of their accomplishments.
I think 'common' angels (which are the ones we are most used to, and probably most often encountered) are indeed far less powerful then Saints/Exarchs/demi-powers, buuuut... when you start to enter into the higher echelons of any deity's entourage, I believe many of them (beings of Arch-angel/fiend status) would have a very low DvR, similar to a demi-power. Remember, a demi-god is just that - DEMI, and not an actual god.
The new broader (4e) usage of the term 'angel' has blurred the lines quite a bit - the old rules no longer apply.
And now I must wonder if any deific servant of Archangel status has ever become a god in its own right. If not, I must assume ALL deities have a mortal requirement, which is rather intriguing. Perhaps beings who begin life as immortals can only become Primordials. Lots of food for thought here - good thread.
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Also is it true under the new rules that an Angel turned to evil is still considered an Angel? Are their powers/abilities unchanged? Can they still heal, turn outsiders, and cast holy words as "evil" angels? That doesn't make much sense to me.
We can fall back on the old (2e) rules for priests - they can choose what source powers their abilities if neutral, but if they become wholly evil then they switch to the negative aspect and all abilities shift. The standard PC Priest was assumed to be good, so they got the standard (positively-aligned) powers. You cannot draw from a source (Radiant/Shadow) that is anathema to your alignment. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Oct 2011 02:00:23 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2011 : 02:29:05
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I think you may be trying to apply the wrong paradigm to the D&D cosmology. I'm somewhat uncomfortable talking about Judeo-Christian mythology in a D&D context if only because I don't want to offend anyone. And I don't want to derail a thread.
FYI, There is a saint template in the Book of Exalted Deeds and a section on sainthood. It's not the same thing as an exarch. Although, a saint could certainly get elevated to exarch and might even retain the title "saint." Exarchs can (but don't necessarily need to) function as intercessors, in a similar way to the manner in which real world saints are said to do. You could probably also apply what in 3e was called a divine rank zero to a being to make him a "hero god." And that might be another way to make a "saint."
In 3e, gods had divine ranks. 0 was a hero god. 1-5 was a demigod, 6-10 was a lesser god, 11-15 was an intermediate god, and 16-20 was a greater god. DVR 21 and over was reserved for overdeities, but they were no longer in the god category, they had broken out of the DVR system and had (unwritten) different rules that applied to them.
A DVR 1 demigod could be a lot less powerful than a paragon or an arch-fiend. But arch-fiends and paragons were not gods. DVR is fueled by belief, it infuses you with a divine energy that you can grant as spells and that can wax and wane with the strength of belief of your followers.
In 2e, Paragons and Arch-fiends were often said to be gods. But in 3e this was rethought somewhat. What was meant was that they could be as strong as gods, or the equivalent of gods, but they were not gods per se. They could perhaps channel pseudo-divine power through acquiring mortal followers that were bound to them through pacts (certain feats represented these pacts, such as scion of sorrow, or knight of stars or favored of companions). See Champions of Ruin p. 24. And my suspicion is that such pacts, as well as channeling the divine power afforded a paragon from the bond it shares with its layer or plane, grants them power that can be equivalent to some degree to one or more ranks of DVR. Now that I think of it, it's this bond with their plane or layer that is the real source of power for Paragons.
I've always felt that planes are semi-sentient, or sub-sentient beings in their own right. They bind with paragons and arch-fiends to act as their physical agents. This binding gives the Paragon or Arch-fiend the equivalent of a DVR 1. This is mentioned explicitly as an "option" in some 3e books. See Book of Exalted Deeds p.123. It's also mentioned in the Book of Vile Darkness. Also, I think it's talked about in Fiendish Codex 1 Hordes of the Abyss. If not, then maybe it's in one of the articles in Dragon Magazine. Bonding with a layer or plane is a little like getting a goauld symbiote from stargate. There's no actual symbiote, but the relation between the paragon/archfiend is somewhat comparable.
I'll reiterate that paragons don't require worship. Their powersource comes from the plane they are bonded to. The plane gets its own power from "souler" power, some kind of astral essence that comes from the life force or belief of worshipers, and may be the same as "incarnum." This essence is derived from petitioners that are absorbed into the plane, from deities who charge the plane with a portion of their divine energy to maintain their astral domains, from the waters of the Styx/River of Blood and the sap of Yggdrasil the Celestial Tree, and possible from some kind of collective belief or up-welling of thoughts or psyche from the material plane.
I just remembered that Bahamut (aka Marduk) and Tiamat "killed" each other in -1071 DR in the Battle of the Gods. As a result, they were banished to Celestia (aka House of the Triad), and the 9 Hells respectively where they were busted down to celestial paragon/archfiend status with DVR 1, per Dragons of Faerûn p. 8. They would not regain their former divine status until after the Time of Troubles. So they were both paragons for over 2000 years.
Things may work a little differently in 4e. In 4e, divine ranks are split up differently, DVR is not mentioned. Demigods became exarchs, and possibly some lesser gods too became exarchs. Exarchs are also said to derive their power from a grant from a more powerful god. Demigods in 3e were not necessarily beholden to other gods for their power; although many demigods were servants of other gods and often sponsored in their apotheosis by greater gods, it was not necessarily required that they derive their power from other gods. In 3e they could be gods in their own right. In 4e, exarchs seem more dependent on the greater gods they serve.
The nature of divinity is not as defined in 4e, so it's harder to draw conclusions about the behind the scenes workings of divinity in 4e.
Angels in 4e, as in 3e, are servants of gods, but they don't seem to have any kind of divine rank. They can't grant spells, they can't manipulate the flow of divine energy. They are just powerful creatures created to serve their deities. And in 4e they don't have faces. They are without individual personality. They are fungible. And their power does not fluctuate with belief. People definitely don't worship angels in 4E. I am not aware of any unique angels with special powers.
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Edited by - Gray Richardson on 12 Oct 2011 04:55:50 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2011 : 23:40:42
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All valid points - I didn't know there was a Saint template in ED. LOL
I am not disagreeing with you, I concur that common angels (2e/3e angels) are merely 'agents of the heavens' (the everyday grunts in the divine scheme of things), but in Judaeo-Christian mythology (and 4e), there are 'higher orders' of angels, as well as fallen angels (some of which - like Satan - were of that higher order), and 4e has now applied the term in it's broadest sense - that all beings that serve deities and were created in the Outer Planes would be 'angels'.
I don't really think of 'angel' as a race at all, but rather, a job description. I think that mortals that are raised to that status could even be technically called 'angels' (although their mortal-born status usually makes us refer to them as 'Saints'). 'Angel' = 'agent' IMHO.
As for the worship thing - I am still not convinced that that is a god-only thing, since just about anything could be worshiped and grant spells (and since that includes non-sentient objects, one can further assume that the spells are actually derived from the Faithful), through three separate 3e Feats (see the 'Potted Plant' thread and Feat that appeared at WotC some time ago). Therefor I propose that godhood itself is also not a race-like state of being, but rather, a state granted by the worship itself.
So, to my way of thinking, it's not that primordials couldn't grant divine spells (since I can think of several primordials who break that rule), but rather, most just don't bother. Receiving worship - in any amount worth bothering over - requires having at the very least a cult, which requires a bit of a god's* attention. The larger the following (and religion), the more time-consuming it becomes, and even a being that can split its consciousness a dozen times over would be taxed by having an extremely large following. Unlike (most?) deities, primordials were never mortal, and just don't have the temperament for it (usually).
Also, we have rules in the Dragon Kings supplement (Athas/Darksun) on how mortals can attain that hero-god (DvR0) status, including what would be considered in 3e-parlance as a 10-lev PrC that allows a mortal to actually achieve demi-power status (and grant spells to their faithful). Granted, we are talking about a setting with very different circumstances, and one without 'regular' gods, but it was connected to the greater D&D cosmology (through Ravenloft), so any rules concerning things arch-mortal should still apply (a Dragon King does not loose his status when outside of Athas, AFAIK, accept through the normal means any deity can loose its power).
And now I can't get the image out of my head of a 'prison-world' (sphere) where deities are exiled, and are disconnected from their followers and loose power. Imagine an entire setting of 'ex-gods'... would make for a good planer (or SJ) adventure, or even a locale in a novel (I wouldn't base the whole novel around it, but a main character could have to go there to get some information or something).
I also agree that planes are sentient - both Faerie and Ravenloft exhibit that behavior. I think proto-planes (demi-planes?) are born from the minds of 'sleeping gods' - the ones in the astral - but that's just my theory. When a god dreams, whose to say at which point reality ends and illusion begins? In the novel Pools of Twilight, there was even an illusion that achieved sentience ( a cheap imitation of The Doctor from ST: Voyager, but cool none the less). Maybe becoming a plane is the ultimate form of godhood, beyond even Overgods. Kind of how a demi-lich becomes even more powerful then a lich - you have to lose everything, before you can attain true power.
*Using the word 'god' in the broader sense, which includes demi-powers, deities, and primordials (and whatever else). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Oct 2011 23:41:19 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2011 : 09:22:55
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In 2e, rather than use the word "god" as an all-encompassing term, they used the term "Power." When they talked about "the powers" they meant gods, primordials, paragons, archfiends, anything that was a "god"-level contender among the planes. That's the term I myself prefer to use in reference to all those folks. In 4e, they've even created some new categories, including primal spirits and archfey, which are highly useful concepts, IMHO.
I like to reserve the word "god" for those beings that have divine rank (DVR). Divine rank is a kind of template. Once you have a divine rank you can grant divine spells, you can establish an astral domain, but your personal reality and even your timeline becomes subject to the collective belief of mortals as well.
A god's personality, appearance and even his personal history/timeline can be edited and retconned by a change in belief of his worshipers. For example, take the recent change of Lathander into Amaunator, that was sparked by a heresy that took hold and as the belief spread, Lathander became transformed. Also, look at Tyr. Gods can regrow limbs easily. However, because Kezef bit Tyr's hand off, and people began to know of and believe in that myth, then Tyr was stuck not having a hand. He could not just regrow it because of the collective belief of his worshipers.
Other beings can be worshipped as gods, and I fully grant you, even embrace, the notion of the "take a feat, worship a potted plant" concept. In most cases, though, that feat represents a unique pact which does not necessarily convey DVR upon the object of worship but rather allows the worshipee to channel divine or pseudo-divine power from some other source (such as a home-plane or a higher power), or possibly to channel power directly from the worshiper and reflect it back upon them in the form of spell-granting.
Primordials, Primal Spirits, Archfey, Shadow Lords, Paragons, Archfiends, and other powers that are peers of gods, may be of a similar power-level, may even be able to mimic some of the features of gods, however they don't have divine rank. Their power sources are the elemental chaos, the natural world/prime material, faerie, shadow, and the Astral respectively.
Now, that is not to say that such beings cannot acquire a divine rank in addition to their other status. I believe they can. DVR is not limited to ascended mortals. I don't see why a demon, devil, celestial, archfey, or primordial cannot acquire divine rank. And many examples abound of ones who have. Certainly Ubtao has. Also the elemental gods -- Istishia, Akadi, Grumbar and Kossuth are primordials with the addition of divine rank. IMHO they find the divine rank annoying and would shed it if they could, but people keep worshiping them despite their lack of promoting their divinity. I think the giant pantheon are also primordials with divine rank. Annam and his ilk are worshiped by mortal beings and thus became invested with divine rank. Arguably the demon prince Orcus had divine rank too. I'm not sure about Primus, the leader of the Modrons. He may have just been a lawful paragon, but it was implied he had divine power, but it may have just been a sloppy use of the term in relation to him. I can't say if he truly had a divine rank or not. I don't know that any mortals actually worshiped Primus. The slaad lords are equally kind of iffy. I tend to view them as not having divine rank. Certain primal spirits like Nobanion and Eldath may have similarly acquired a divine rank or two and become hybrids, both primal spirit and god. But that's just a theory of mine.
If you are a power of another kind and then you acquire divine rank, you may have the added advantage that if folks stop believing in you, you don't necessarily die. You may just lose your template and go back to being what you were. Ascended mortals and gods who are solely gods become colossal, inert god-islands floating in the Astral plane. There is some evidence that as long as their original link to their power-source is retained, hyphenated primordial-gods can survive loss of worship just fine and just go back to being regular primordials.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2011 : 09:58:18
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It's interesting to note that a new trope has emerged onto the scene of fantasy fiction. The basic idea is that mortal humans possess some kind of indefinable spark which can ultimately give them more "power" than even the mightiest of gods. Small children and even infants can sometimes instictively banish powerful fiends while the mightiest celestial agents could fail. Men can not only challenge the gods, they can make and remake and destroy and triumphantly defy the gods, men are attracted to power (and quite corruptible) yet still remain unshackled by the responsibilities or restrictions on use of power which obstruct higher beings, men can change themselves and their world in ways that gods cannot believe, comprehend, or even imagine.
I'd speculate that some of this "mortal spark" is lost each step of the path towards immortality. Liches and vampires would possess less of this intrinsic humanity than living men yet more than little gods, divine ranks would strip away "human ranks" in direct proportion as the gods are removed to ever more alien vantages. Perhaps a divinely ascended mortal retains some hint of this unique power-over-the-gods-and-universe for some time, before it is eroded away by his believers. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2011 : 11:50:07
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| What I did not like in 3E is when gods had stats way above creatures like Demogorgon, Primus, tough their divine domains were smaller. When Vheraun wiped the floor with the main yugoloth. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2011 : 14:25:09
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Getting away from the tangent on the "nature of deity" for a moment, I'll add that the 4E player's handbook 2 allows for "Deva" PCs. The name "deva" has been modified a bit in 4E (as many terms have been redefined in 4E), so the 4E Deva is essentially the old 3E "Aasimar" (child of a deity/power/etc). They have the interesting mechanic of being instantly reincarnated upon death, retaining only fuzzy memories of their past incarnations. If they stray from the path of good at some point, they will reincarnate as Rakshasas. As Rakshasas, they keep the memories of their previous lives, yet still continue to reincarnate on subsequent deaths.
Now, I'm not an expert on 4E, not by any means. I just saw it the other day and this thread reminded me. Perhaps someone who owns the PHB2, or regularly plays 4E, might know more about the limits and advantages of Devas in the new system?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2011 : 23:37:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
b When Vheraun wiped the floor with the main yugoloth.
What happened and who was the yugoloth?
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 16:08:30
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| The Oinoloth, he rules the most evil plane. At first he was overwhelmed by a presence of a lesser god (despite his tower is made from a spine of god). Later he was destroyed by wall of force + acid orb, I think. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 16:42:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
In 2e, rather than use the word "god" as an all-encompassing term, they used the term "Power." When they talked about "the powers" they meant gods, primordials, paragons, archfiends, anything that was a "god"-level contender among the planes. That's the term I myself prefer to use in reference to all those folks. In 4e, they've even created some new categories, including primal spirits and archfey, which are highly useful concepts, IMHO.
I stopped using 'power' for gods in my writings because I was using it as another word for energy a lot, and you wind-up with sentences like "the power of the Power...", which is bad writing, IMHO. "The power of the Gods..." sounds so much more poetic. Just a preference thing is all, to keep things straight in my own head.
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I like to reserve the word "god" for those beings that have divine rank (DVR). Divine rank is a kind of template. Once you have a divine rank you can grant divine spells, you can establish an astral domain, but your personal reality and even your timeline becomes subject to the collective belief of mortals as well.
The 'Dogma' stipulation - I like how you explain it.
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
A god's personality, appearance and even his personal history/timeline can be edited and retconned by a change in belief of his worshipers. For example, take the recent change of Lathander into Amaunator, that was sparked by a heresy that took hold and as the belief spread, Lathander became transformed. Also, look at Tyr. Gods can regrow limbs easily. However, because Kezef bit Tyr's hand off, and people began to know of and believe in that myth, then Tyr was stuck not having a hand. He could not just regrow it because of the collective belief of his worshipers.
You make me start to wonder if the god/faithful relationship isn't merely a choice, but rather something MUCH deeper, something primal. Perhaps in some sort of limited way, mortal worshipers become akin to mini-avatars of the god, in that they aren't completely outside of the power, but rather, part of a greater whole. That could explain why mortals beliefs have so much control were the gods - they are literally 'inside the god's head'. That would mean, from a mechanical perspective, the god places an infinitesimal bit of its own power inside the mortal - a much lower sacrifice of energy then would be required for An avatar, or even a (Greater) Manifestation.
This creates something like how a computer on a network connects to the server - the exchange is two-way, and both gain by it, but anything 'bad' (like false beliefs) will behave like a virus and spread to the server and then to the other stations. I like that - I always felt we do not so much as 'discover' our universe, as we do create it as we go along.
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Other beings can be worshiped as gods, and I fully grant you, even embrace, the notion of the "take a feat, worship a potted plant" concept. In most cases, though, that feat represents a unique pact which does not necessarily convey DVR upon the object of worship but rather allows the worshiper to channel divine or pseudo-divine power from some other source (such as a home-plane or a higher power), or possibly to channel power directly from the worshiper and reflect it back upon them in the form of spell-granting.
I like the idea that the energy itself isn't even derived from 'the gods' at all, but rather stems from some planer source. The god is like the RW power-company in this scenario - they do not actually create the energy (in most cases), but they are the easiest means for you to hook to it and use the source. What they get from you in return is that your own 'soul power' (which I dubbed Elan) gets added to their own, which increases their ranking in the greater scheme of things.
In the 'potted plant' scenario, the mortal has merely found his own way of receiving that energy, like when a person puts in Solar Panels in the RW, or a wind turbine. There is more of an initial investment, but you have more freedom in the long run.
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Primordials, Primal Spirits, Archfey, Shadow Lords, Paragons, Archfiends, and other powers that are peers of gods, may be of a similar power-level, may even be able to mimic some of the features of gods, however they don't have divine rank. Their power sources are the elemental chaos, the natural world/prime material, faerie, shadow, and the Astral respectively.
Okay, I will have to agree with this. DvR = 'Cosmic Feat' (we should really come-up with a better name for those). Doesn't 4e have 3 levels of feats? Something else they may have gotten right.
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Now, that is not to say that such beings cannot acquire a divine rank in addition to their other status. I believe they can. DVR is not limited to ascended mortals. I don't see why a demon, devil, celestial, archfey, or primordial cannot acquire divine rank. And many examples abound of ones who have. Certainly Ubtao has. Also the elemental gods -- Istishia, Akadi, Grumbar and Kossuth are primordials with the addition of divine rank. IMHO they find the divine rank annoying and would shed it if they could, but people keep worshiping them despite their lack of promoting their divinity. I think the giant pantheon are also primordials with divine rank. Annam and his ilk are worshiped by mortal beings and thus became invested with divine rank. Arguably the demon prince Orcus had divine rank too. I'm not sure about Primus, the leader of the Modrons. He may have just been a lawful paragon, but it was implied he had divine power, but it may have just been a sloppy use of the term in relation to him. I can't say if he truly had a divine rank or not. I don't know that any mortals actually worshiped Primus. The slaad lords are equally kind of iffy. I tend to view them as not having divine rank. Certain primal spirits like Nobanion and Eldath may have similarly acquired a divine rank or two and become hybrids, both primal spirit and god. But that's just a theory of mine.
So not a Feat, but rather an ability (Which are just PrC-specific Feats) granted by a template? I am almost thinking it could be a PrC with a divine prerequisite - perhaps level 20 in any one class, which would account for the dragon-Kings.
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
If you are a power of another kind and then you acquire divine rank, you may have the added advantage that if folks stop believing in you, you don't necessarily die. You may just lose your template and go back to being what you were. Ascended mortals and gods who are solely gods become colossal, inert god-islands floating in the Astral plane. There is some evidence that as long as their original link to their power-source is retained, hyphenated primordial-gods can survive loss of worship just fine and just go back to being regular primordials.
Maybe DvR has another advantage; True Immortality. Other things can truly die, but once you receive worship, you can't, because small bits of yourself are left all over the place, in followers, relics, and 'places of power' (holy sites). It would work the same way as killing gods in 2e - you are just killing a piece of the god, and not the whole thing. Wiping out every last remnant of a being that has spread itself around would be nearly impossible. Its like cloning - as long as some microscopic piece of material is still around, you can use the DNA to re-generate a copy of the full original.
And now this has me thinking about liches, and Mystra.... 
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
It's interesting to note that a new trope has emerged onto the scene of fantasy fiction. The basic idea is that mortal humans possess some kind of indefinable spark which can ultimately give them more "power" than even the mightiest of gods.<snip>
I think it follows suit with what Gray and I are discussing above - that human perception somehow 'paints' reality. This can only be done from the Prime material Plane, and once something has a link to other planes, the link mortals have to the Prime begins to fade. Somehow, the rest of universe is anchored to, and mirrors, what happens in the Prime Material. At this point, I think we are diverging far from the thread topic.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Oct 2011 16:50:49 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2011 : 18:45:39
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You edited one of my quotes. In the below sentence I wrote "worshipee" and you changed it to "worshiper."quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
In most cases, though, that feat represents a unique pact which does not necessarily convey DVR upon the object of worship but rather allows the worshipee to channel divine or pseudo-divine power from some other source (such as a home-plane or a higher power), or possibly to channel power directly from the worshiper and reflect it back upon them in the form of spell-granting.
I really did mean "worshipee." It's the being that is the object of worship of the "potted plant" feat that does the channeling. Normally, a god with divine rank is his own power source, he has a reservoir of divine energy or "essentia" perhaps that he can channel to his worshiper in the form of granting spells and performing miracles, etc. But when a mortal has a pact with a demon or devil or a potted plant for that matter, the worshipee has no power of its own, but rather channels the power to the worshiper from another source. Perhaps a sponsor god or archfiend or from the plane of the Abyss or 9 Hells. The potted plant has no reservoir of essentia to draw on, so it must get the essentia from elsewhere to grant back to the worshiper.
Only economic models spring to mind as illustrations. If banks don't have enough money to loan out, they can in turn get loans from the Fed. Small insurance companies can buy "re-insurance" from larger companies to cover unforseen losses if the amounts they must pay out exceed their reserves.
There's a class called the Ur-priest that worships no gods, but rather siphons divine power from all gods. Sort of like stealing electricity by illegally tapping into the power lines. While demons and devils have obvious connections to greater power that they can draw from and channel to their pact-signers, a potted plant has no such obvious sponsor. But perhaps the "potted plant" feat lets the user access spells in a similar manner to the Ur-priests, siphoning spell energy from some sort of cosmic background radiation or residue left by spellcasting, or the ambient currents of spell energy wafting around as millions of other divine casters are channeling the power of their gods at any give moment. And I'm still intrigued with the idea that the potted plant feat might let the potted plant channel a worshiper's own essentia back to the worshiper for use as spells.
As for Divine Rank, I think it was clearly intended to parallel the player class system, where the ranks are levels. Note that after level 20, a god breaks out into a different (unwritten) rule system. Thus, overgods are the equivalent of "epic" gods. Note also that gods can take feats, but they also get salient divine abilities which are like divine feats or special powers that a god can exercise. So DVR is not like a feat, but more like a level that confers feats and other things that levels confer. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2011 : 01:39:32
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quote:
Therise
[Devas] have the interesting mechanic of being instantly reincarnated upon death, retaining only fuzzy memories of their past incarnations. If they stray from the path of good at some point, they will reincarnate as Rakshasas.
You mean Gandalf could've been reincarnated/resurrected as a Rakshasa, Gandalf the Black? Heeheehee. |
[/Ayrik] |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2011 : 03:09:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
The Oinoloth, he rules the most evil plane. At first he was overwhelmed by a presence of a lesser god (despite his tower is made from a spine of god). Later he was destroyed by wall of force + acid orb, I think.
What is the source for this? I want to know more. |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2011 : 08:10:40
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Marc
The Oinoloth, he rules the most evil plane. At first he was overwhelmed by a presence of a lesser god (despite his tower is made from a spine of god). Later he was destroyed by wall of force + acid orb, I think.
What is the source for this? I want to know more.
I don't know of any source for that. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 10:05:28
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| War of the Spider Queen novels |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 10:26:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
War of the Spider Queen novels
That wasn't Anthraxus, that was an ultroloth named Inthracis who wasn't the Oinoloth. In the cosmology depicted in the novels, the position of Oinoloth (what passed for it) was sort of bunched up with the General of Gehenna as far as I could tell, and that was another fiend altogether. I wouldn't see the two of them as the same individual (though the one from the Blood Rift obviously was inspired by Anthraxus, just no continuity). |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Do Angels have a celestial Paragon?
