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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Sep 2011 : 17:52:46
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Anybody know the origins of ancient dwarven magic? I was reading around and it seems like in their distant past, they used powerful magics to free themselves from their giant masters. Creations like Adamantite Golems apparently came from them. Ws this magic ll clerical in nature? Did it approach high elven magic in it's potency?
I wish they would write some novels during the time of giants , it's seems like a really interesting time period in the realms.
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2011 : 21:31:51
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I think it was Rune Magic that the dwarves used. An old 2E sourcebook called Dwarves Deep mentions the Lost Runes of Power. Here's a quote: "Legends persist of runes once known to the dwarves that were far more powerful than the existing ones. A single rune of power was used to level the ancient city of Dharrmaghongh in Murghom, long ago."
I'd think that's definitely on par with elven high magic. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2011 : 21:42:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
I think it was Rune Magic that the dwarves used. An old 2E sourcebook called Dwarves Deep mentions the Lost Runes of Power. Here's a quote: "Legends persist of runes once known to the dwarves that were far more powerful than the existing ones. A single rune of power was used to level the ancient city of Dharrmaghongh in Murghom, long ago."
I'd think that's definitely on par with elven high magic.
Wow that's pretty amazing.... |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 01:05:45
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My understanding is that dwarven magic was traditionally always clerical in nature. Although it seems that truly superior dwarven craftsmen often find some way to imbue their work (mostly structures and weapons and forgeworks) with elemental magics. I would not be surprised if dwarves somehow draw from (or even inspire) extra-planar lore in the fabrication of things, using celestial allies or subjugated fiends or bound elementals to shape power into dwarven items.
It should be noted that relics are essentially the same thing as powerful artifacts (that is, they can circumvent the normal rules of magic) except that their magics are fueled by divine rather than arcane sources. If nothing else, dwarves are stubbornly reverent of their magical treasures. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 26 Sep 2011 01:06:53 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 01:20:34
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Dwarven Ancestors seem to be a rediscovered hold-over of dwarven magics, and work like a divinely powered golem (instead of the usually arcanely powered golems).
Some dwarves have rediscovered earthmagics or geomancy, an art that ancient arcanely gifted dwarves were said to posses. You can read about a geomancer (and his annoying crystal dragon familiar) in Cordell's Darkvision novel. Geomancy could very well have been the prefered method of fighting against giants: its a magic that usually has a greater reach and area of effect than usual thaumathurgies or pyromancy. You could even include the rumor that most dwarves were thaught geomancy by earthspirits before Moradin became their prevalent religion. |
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Edited by - Bladewind on 26 Sep 2011 01:21:13 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2011 : 01:48:36
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I read somewhere and vaguely recall that the race that discovered/invented geomancy were the dwarves. And it was first used not for combat, but for tunnel-making. Can anyone tell what that sourcebook is? Or did I just read a fan-made article? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2011 : 11:41:38
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| There is some lore (non-FR) on the divine power of Runes found within the Runepriest 4e class. I'll try to remember and look it up. |
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Xevo
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2011 : 17:50:50
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I have always considered the origins of Dwarven Magic to be based on runes as well. I even went to far as to add a bit of flair and explanation to this use by adapting part of Odin's mythology as part of Moradin's in regards to discovery. Still an old-schooler by playing 2e, I only allow my dwarves to be wizards if they are of the Runecaster Kit (Dragon #257).
And the Giantkin Handbook (2e) has some more info on Runes and Runic magic since giants use pretty much the same kind. |
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.
-Terry Pratchett |
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2011 : 17:50:43
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| The Dwarves of the Gray Peaks developed a system of spell casting based around runes to counter the growing threat posed by the Human wizards....they never got to use it and its all but forgotten hidden away beneath the mountains some where..... |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2011 : 22:05:36
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I think Arcane/standard magic comes from deities, but Rune_magic is even more ancient in nature and is related to the Primordials.
Just my own theory, mind you.
Rune_magic seems both more primitive and yet more powerful - it is able to manipulate the basic (Elemental) forces of the universe. Not as full of finesse as regular arcane magic, but much more fundamentally powerful. The runes literally call upon the underlying forces of everything.
I think Dwarves (as well as Giants) are somehow connected to the Primordials, and are therefor not 'allowed' (there is a story somewhere about Dwarves being denied access to the Nether Scrolls... they can't even see them) to practice the type of magic granted mortals. The Runes allow them to tap-into a much more ancient power - the "Music of the Spheres', or the "Language Primeval" - literally, the voice of God(s) that can bring ideas into physical being. Runes are just the written form of that Universal (deific) language.
Their appears to also be a counter-language - the dark Speech - which Riven is able to use. That would be the language of un-mmaking, and the written form would probably drive most creatures insane.
Once again, just some of my theories. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2011 : 23:32:42
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I like the idea that runes tap into something more primal and less controlled than the Weave, but I don't see a need to involve primordials -- perhaps runes were simply the first attempts to master magic.
As for dwarves not seeing the Nether Scrolls, that was an old (and difficult to find!) story on the Wizards site, dating back to around 2000. The Scrolls and the Dwarves/ The Denial of Mystryl. It's a very brief tale, and it offers a reason for why pre-3E dwarves could not use arcane magic. |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2011 : 23:48:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I like the idea that runes tap into something more primal and less controlled than the Weave, but I don't see a need to involve primordials -- perhaps runes were simply the first attempts to master magic.
I like this version a lot. In Serpent Kingdoms remember they mentioned that the Ba'etith (sp?) collected much of the primitive magic that already existed in the world. I could see rune magic easily being one of those.
Runes also strike me as decidedly Nordic in flavor, so if I had to guess Id bet it originated in a northern clime. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 04:45:51
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To be technical, I understand that magical and spiritual runic symbols were used by chalcolithic proto-Celtic peoples spanning all corners of Europe (and much of Indo-Asia) ... some theories posit that they were carried into early pictographic writings of cultures reaching as far as modern China and Siberia, perhaps even to the Americas. Of course the particular symbols and what they represented would vary considerably between different groups and regions, no less than the gods they venerated and cultures they formed.
Insofar as Europe is concerned, the "Futhark" rune alphabets are the best documented and best known and closely associated with Germanic languages. Basically, the spread (and diversity) of these languages also brought their runes ... the runes, oral traditions, mythologies, and folklore of the Scandanavian Norse peoples (as well as the various Brythonic Celts) are well known and numerous simply because Christian missionaries documented these things carefully and their writings survived into modern times. They were only a small segment of the many populations and cultures who dwelled in Europe (itself just one continent, and a kinda smallish one at that) ... the vast majority of pagans (along with their runes and magic) were not so fortunate after being displaced by history. |
[/Ayrik] |
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D-brane
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
140 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 05:19:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I like the idea that runes tap into something more primal and less controlled than the Weave, but I don't see a need to involve primordials -- perhaps runes were simply the first attempts to master magic.
The Weave is, apart from being a web of magical energy, also comprised of natural energy-flows and threads that suffuse Toril.
Perhaps the concept of runic magic is such that it represents a rather more primordial (in the sense of measuring temporal eras) system of harnessing those natural energy-flows in order to achieve Weave-like effects in daily life. |
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 05:39:15
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| I've found an interesting write-up about Rune Magic here. If it was more powerful than the Weave, as MT theorized, then the Netherese wouldn't have abandoned it, right? |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 02 Oct 2011 05:41:43 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 05:56:58
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The Netherese only considered magic derived from the Nether Scrolls to be worth persuing, and rune magic is not a prominent category within the Scrolls. Imagine the possibilities if an equivalent set of scrolls existed, say the Jotun Scrolls, which only describes the workings of runes.
Mystra's Weave seems (to me) to be a construct - admittedly a divine, organic, quasi-sentient, self-sustaining and self-repairing one with the capacity for growth - but still ultimately just a construct. Regardless of what the Weave really is, it's still evident that other sophisticated systems of magic operate (quite well) entirely without it. What's the point of involving gods (of any type, by any name) at all anyhow? Trading dependance upon Mystra for subjugation to Shar or for worship of a Primordial is a zero-gain equation. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 06:08:17
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Or perhaps in their arrogance they deemed Rune Magic, which was thought to have originated from giants or/and dwarves, ultimately inferior and thus didn't pursue their study of it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 06:32:59
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| Using rune magic is more difficult and time-consuming than Weave-based spells. Why walk 10 miles when it's hot as Hades out when you can drive there in an air-conditioned car? |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 07:09:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Using rune magic is more difficult and time-consuming than Weave-based spells. Why walk 10 miles when it's hot as Hades out when you can drive there in an air-conditioned car?
The path to greatness is never easy. If the Netherese realized that Rune Magic was more powerful than Weave-based spells, they would have delved deeper into its mysteries. Again, I'm not saying I'm agreeing with MT's conjecture. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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D-brane
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
140 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 09:17:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Using rune magic is more difficult and time-consuming than Weave-based spells.
Which could reinforce the idea of what we were talking about earlier re: runic magic being something of a primordial system of magic. It's rough, with an unnecessarily complex structure, and not at all easy to understand or employ.
Later arcane sciences, like those which apply strictly Weave-based effects, are entirely more refined and streamlined when it comes to harnessing the energy of Mystra's eternal mystery. |
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 09:40:27
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quote:
Originally posted by D-brane
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Using rune magic is more difficult and time-consuming than Weave-based spells.
Which could reinforce the idea of what we were talking about earlier re: runic magic being something of a primordial system of magic. It's rough, with an unnecessarily complex structure, and not at all easy to understand or employ.
Later arcane sciences, like those which apply strictly Weave-based effects, are entirely more refined and streamlined when it comes to harnessing the energy of Mystra's eternal mystery.
Perhaps certain races ie., Giants and Dwarves have an innate grasp of the more complex rune magic giving them an advantage relative to other races.... |
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D-brane
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
140 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 12:12:10
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by D-brane
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Using rune magic is more difficult and time-consuming than Weave-based spells.
Which could reinforce the idea of what we were talking about earlier re: runic magic being something of a primordial system of magic. It's rough, with an unnecessarily complex structure, and not at all easy to understand or employ.
Later arcane sciences, like those which apply strictly Weave-based effects, are entirely more refined and streamlined when it comes to harnessing the energy of Mystra's eternal mystery.
Perhaps certain races ie., Giants and Dwarves have an innate grasp of the more complex rune magic giving them an advantage relative to other races....
Being earthen-born races - or races with stronger ties to the very primordial bedrock of Toril - they may simply find runic magic more "natural" and more in-line with how both of their races generally tend to view the world. |
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 14:44:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Using rune magic is more difficult and time-consuming than Weave-based spells. Why walk 10 miles when it's hot as Hades out when you can drive there in an air-conditioned car?
The path to greatness is never easy. If the Netherese realized that Rune Magic was more powerful than Weave-based spells, they would have delved deeper into its mysteries. Again, I'm not saying I'm agreeing with MT's conjecture.
machine language is basically more adaptable than any of the programming languages, but I don't see a lot of people programming in it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 16:19:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Using rune magic is more difficult and time-consuming than Weave-based spells. Why walk 10 miles when it's hot as Hades out when you can drive there in an air-conditioned car?
The path to greatness is never easy. If the Netherese realized that Rune Magic was more powerful than Weave-based spells, they would have delved deeper into its mysteries. Again, I'm not saying I'm agreeing with MT's conjecture.
Okay, you've got two paths to greatness... One takes you a lot of time and effort, and is very slow-going. The other gets you there more quickly and easily. Which do you choose? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 21:08:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I've found an interesting write-up about Rune Magic here. If it was more powerful than the Weave, as MT theorized, then the Netherese wouldn't have abandoned it, right?
It is a canonical fact that Magic was chaotic and extremely hard to control pre-Weave, and each iteration of Mystra made the Weave into an easy-to-use interface between the actual magical energies and mortals. One could theorize that Mystryl made things TOO easy, and allowed mortals access to power beyond their maturity to wield.
Be that as it may, we have established canon that magic - in it's raw, 'un-weaved' state - is incredibly potent, and that the actual energies involved pre-date the weave (and therefor Arcane magic as we know it).
I think the Runes are like stand-alone mini-weaves: each one harnesses (and controls to some degree) a small amount of that primal energy. They are physical representations of those same patterns (in Vancian Magic) that are impressed upon the psyche by a mage when he performs Weave-based (Arcane) magic.
They may even be likened to pre-cursors to things like Mantles and Mythals - a way of concentrating and focusing those raw energies into specific uses. The Weave itself wold just be the ultimate end of such a path of magical theory (Note that the Crystal Sphere around Realmspace is completely inscribed with magical runes, which could be the physical aspect of the weave itself... the ultimate pattern, if you will).
So Runes are like 'keys' that tap into those ancient, primal energies, and all magic that has been studied since is just more advanced versions of using those keys (which allow for more focused and specific displays, at the cost of some power).
Thats what I think; Runes are the building-blocks.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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D-brane
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
140 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2011 : 03:37:55
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Using rune magic is more difficult and time-consuming than Weave-based spells. Why walk 10 miles when it's hot as Hades out when you can drive there in an air-conditioned car?
The path to greatness is never easy. If the Netherese realized that Rune Magic was more powerful than Weave-based spells, they would have delved deeper into its mysteries. Again, I'm not saying I'm agreeing with MT's conjecture.
machine language is basically more adaptable than any of the programming languages, but I don't see a lot of people programming in it.
Machine/Assembly language programming is a long-lost art-form unfortunately. People still tend to snicker around me when I tell them that I spent years studying assembly language.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2011 : 07:45:34
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People get that glazed-eyes look whenever I try to explain that I use machine language and assembly on a daily basis, even in my hobbies. Microcoding is necessary when working with microprocessors and embedded systems. Consumer and industrial appliances might seem inglorious in terms of big computing, but they are far more numerous (and in a few cases, more capable) than PC platforms.
Are we basically saying that the Weave is a fancy high-level magic compiler? I doubt computer analogies are well suited, and I'd hate to see bloated spellware. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2011 : 16:12:55
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Ah yes, I remember studying Fortran and Algol, back in the prehistoric days of computing. I even had a TRS-80 in 1979. 
That thing wouldn't even qualify as a $5 pocket calculator these days. 
Anyhoot, I believe whenever the Weave = GUI theory/hypothesis is put before Ed (in his thread and elsewhere), he usually alludes to it being a "very good comparison".
The Weave is precisely that - an artificial layer of 'arcane software' placed between mortals and the raw power of magic. And just like Windows (and DOS that it is built upon), each iteration 'dumbs down' what a user has access to, in order to insure better stability of the system. You loose quite a bit of power that way (pre-fall Netherease magic, anyone?), but we keep getting a simpler and easier to access interface. Just as 'computer gurus' of the bygone era were far and few between, so were the Archmages, but nowadays, nearly anyone can cast a cantrip or two (send a text?), if they put a little bit of effort into learning how.
And now I am wondering if in the 4e era, people are using I-Wands and gazing into their Crystal I-Balls. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2011 : 16:18:51
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quote:
Originally posted by D-brane
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Using rune magic is more difficult and time-consuming than Weave-based spells. Why walk 10 miles when it's hot as Hades out when you can drive there in an air-conditioned car?
The path to greatness is never easy. If the Netherese realized that Rune Magic was more powerful than Weave-based spells, they would have delved deeper into its mysteries. Again, I'm not saying I'm agreeing with MT's conjecture.
machine language is basically more adaptable than any of the programming languages, but I don't see a lot of people programming in it.
Machine/Assembly language programming is a long-lost art-form unfortunately. People still tend to snicker around me when I tell them that I spent years studying assembly language.
You're not alone in that regard. I still program in assembly and machine language from time to time. But then, I often find strange stuff like this provides me with a great and satisfying sense of fun. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2011 : 16:21:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Are we basically saying that the Weave is a fancy high-level magic compiler? I doubt computer analogies are well suited, and I'd hate to see bloated spellware.
I could see Ao being responsible for the "debugging" of the system when certain faults arise -- like deities taking their worshippers from granted. Time of Trouble-compiler repair algorithms.  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2011 : 16:42:38
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So who are 'The hackers'? Would that be deities? (at least, the mortal-born ones)
And can we get a magical variant of a computer virus? Magic-dead zones and Wild-Magic areas? Plaguelands and The Mournlands? The Spellplague itself would be the equivalent of the mythical Y2K bug (what the media said would happen, as opposed to what really happened).
What happened when Netheril fell? Did Karsus put to much strain on the system and crash the server? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Oct 2011 16:44:06 |
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Ancient Dwarven Magic
