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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 21:10:21
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I was pretty excited to finally get my hands on a copy of the new FR Player's Handbook a couple months back, but under the Eladrin races, only the Sun Elves and Moon Elves were listed. But in the FR Campaign Guide, it mentions Star Elves briefly about how they lived in the Yuirwood and Yuirshanyaar. I have, as of late, been using the Eladrin model like you do for Sun and Moon Elves to create a Star Elf character (but have never been able to play them because i have no one to play with :( ) and used the physical appearance of the Star Elves, while applying the Eladrin stats. So I'm wondering, why didn't they include the Star Elves in the PH? And does anyone know of their current situation? Also, the same goes for Avariel (except I haven't created an Avariel). Please fill me in on details! :)
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 21:59:35
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The design philosophy for 4E was to remove sub-races.
In fact, elves as a whole were cited (by Rich Baker) as a prime example of what happens when you take a non-human race and divide it up into several variations. From the 4E standpoint, that many sub-races are redundant and unnecessary.
This does not mean that Star Elves or Avariel are gone from the Realms. Far from it!
What it does mean is you’ll not likely see game rules for either sub-race written up in an official sourcebook.
I have no idea if there’s been anything official written about Star Elves lore-wise for the Realms.
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 22:25:00
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Why would they get rid of something that has been one of the main driving points in the Realms? I think that sub-races are very important to the Realms because they have been one of the main things to shape the history. I've heard a lot of people complain that the Star Elves and Avariel were absent and that the Realms was coming to close to MMOs like World of Warcraft, but what they don't have is the abundance of different races that RPGs do. Now I do believe there is a time when there's too many races but FR has about the right amount. I believe they should make an official statement about those sub-races for the fans (including me! Star Elves are my favorite FR race).
And Star Elves can be found in Unapproachable East source book ,The Twilight Tomb campaign guide thing, and The Last Mythal Trilogy #2 Farthest Reach (my favorite book out of the series for obvious reasons), and that's about all the ones I know of.
Now this might be a strange idea, but what if they added Star Elves to the Eladrin, Aquatic/Sea Elves to Elves, and make Avariel as their own race like the Drow? |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 22:40:23
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This is one of those instances where the needs (or requirements) of the latest edition of D&D game rules trumps setting lore.
This is similar to what happened when 3rd Edition D&D was first released to the public. It was then that we learned longevity magic had been removed from the game.
Some people grumbled that this change was a retcon, since magic items like Elixers of Life and other, similar life-sustaining magics clearly did exist in prior game sourcebooks and novels.
The key was to realize that the D&D game rules aren’t all-inclusive when it comes to any D&D setting; all the rules can do is act as a lens to view the game world with. Different lenses (read: D&D game rules) show parts of the setting better than other lenses. So if you can’t see something like Elixers of Life or Avariels—which is to say the particular edition of the D&D rules doesn’t present them to you for play—it doesn’t mean these aspects of the Realms are absent from the setting.
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 22:41:15
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Eh. I don't agree with everything 4e's done, and I really like a lot of what it's done, but this is one of the things I'm neutral about. I can definitely agree that there were too many subraces(especially of elves), but these haven't been removed, just had focus shifted from them. In the case of Avariel, this is probably justified by the fact they were on the verge of extinction. Infact, I've never been in a campaign where avariel were allowed(either because of their scarcity or because the ability to fly caused problems with the campaign). |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven" - John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 22:42:26
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They didn't get remove the sub-races per se, they're still there. It's just that they don't have separate rules for every single sub-race. It's the rules that were simplified, trimmed and snipped.
Unless they specifically mention that (sub-race A) was wiped out by (some event), then they're still there in the lore. The nation of Halruaa, for instance, was very clearly wiped out in the lore. Avariel and Star Elves, though, nothing really has been said about them so they're still around. It's just that you'll use "Elf" stats for most of the previously "ruled-up" sub-races.
That's my understanding, anyway. |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4425 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 23:02:00
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They got rid of them because multiple racial mechanics were becoming a bit contrived and over-abundant. While I have no problems with sub-racial flavor, lets keep things simple on the mechanics side eh?
And the only thing that now separates gold and moon elves is flavor and a feat. That doesnt mean that they are the same, far from it, but it does mean that the mechanics dont get in the way. Im sure you could easily devise a racial feat for Star elves, maybe something like:
Star Elf Tactics: When you use your fey step racial power, you gain combat advantage against any enemy you teleport next to until the end of your next turn. Special: You cannot select this feat if you have the Moon Elf Resilience or Sun Elf Grace feat.
This also goes to show that Star elves use the same stats as Eladrin for all intent and purposes. Aquatic elves would follow the same stats for elves but I'd houserule a waterbreathing racial ability. |
Edited by - Diffan on 11 Feb 2011 23:14:24 |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 23:40:11
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Still yet, I don't see the need in trashing some of the most interesting races (especially races that played a big role in the lore). And I have been using the stats of the Eladrin becaue Star Elves ARE Eladrin according to FR 4e now. So that makes my life much simpler in the sense that I only need to know of their appearance (pale gold, red, silver, very fair skin, grey or violet eyes with flecks in them and taller than most elves and considered extremely beautiful even compared to other elves), but the thing missing is the feat, which Diffan gave me :). Also, what would become of their ghost touch racial power? Is that all moot now? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7966 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 23:44:36
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I personally feel the elven subraces are part of the D&D tradition and should be reinstalled. Though I'll admit I think there were slightly too many subraces (especially when Greyhawk, Krynn, and Spelljammer elves mix into the Realms) ... sorry, but Star Elves seem redundant to me, while aquatics are basically just elven merfolk and avariel are about as rare on the Realms as winged humans.
4E has eladrin and elves (and drow). Much too simplified for my tastes. A few elven subraces need to exist, and need to be differentiated a little more (in terms of game stats/rules) so they don't end up just being "ethnic enclaves" differing only in cosmetic and nationalistic qualities.
Imagine D&D with only two species of dragon (metallic and chromatic), or only one kind of giant (available in different sizes and colours). Bah. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 23:46:10
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I guess it depends on what you mean by "trashing".
Star Elves are still part of the Realms. Until they're written out of the setting in a sourcebook* or novel they'll always be there, waiting for an enterprising player (such as yourself) to use them during play.
Who knows, it's quite possible 4E will flip its game design imperatives (just like 3E did) and start cranking out sub-races.
*Note: the lack of any listing for Star Elves in the FR Player's Guide is not the same thing as Star Elves being removed from the Forgotten Realms. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 11 Feb 2011 23:49:05 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 23:56:20
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I disagree with Arik as I've never found the different subraces of elves to be anywhere near as distinct or iconic as the different types of giants or dragons. There've always been three basic flavors of elves; arcane/cultured(eladrin), wild/natural(elves), and drow. Saying the differences between the ones that fit the first two groups are cultural/ethnical makes perfect sense in my mind. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven" - John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 00:07:36
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Do we have any reports of migrations out of their side dimension for the Star elves? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7966 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 00:16:52
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I prefer an extra variety = arcane/haughty (Sun/Gold/eladrin), "common/standard" (Moon/Silver), wild/sylvan (Green/Copper), and of course the Drow. Perhaps it's my 1E grog school upbringing, the basic elven distinctions were very important in old Dragonlance and Realms fiction, so I'm not entirely comfortable with this detail of core 4E. Just opinion.
This wiki page lists Star/Mithril elves as a subtype of eladrin, similar in appearance to Moon elves. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 12 Feb 2011 00:19:36 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 00:35:25
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Well, its not like the variety isn't there, it's just all fluff based as opposed to crunch based, so I'm not seeing the problem. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven" - John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7966 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 00:48:37
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4E is doesn't make a crunch distinction (yet). Even 1E crunched stats/mods/rules for all the elven subraces, subsequent editions all started off as streamlined "cleanups" but eventually succumbed in some expansion book or other. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 12 Feb 2011 00:49:21 |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 00:56:28
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Well for me it makes sense to have Star Elves, cause you know.....sun, moon, star? But, as I've stated before, they are a vital part to the Realms because of their helping Araevin Teshurr and his friends in uncovering one of the Telkiira/Selukirra, because if they hadn't, I dread to think what Sarya Dlardrageth would have done to Evereska and Evermeet. And plus I believe that a lot of the Elven sub-races are pure tradition to the Realms, I think 4e needs a slight revision like in 3.5e, to flesh out the sub-races, so to speak. I think that Star Elves tend to exhibit the more haughty, arrogant, and aloofness that High Elf types tend to manifest. Star Elves really, well I don't know quite about HATE, but they are mistrustful and dislike humans very much since the wars with Yuishanyaar, they are expert high mages, are extremely reclusive, and have the fair skin/hair that those types tend to posses (what kind of High Elf type doesn't have fair hair/skin mainly?). Oh, and lets not forget that they are taller and more beautiful than all the other Elves (as stated from Unapproachable East, and even more High Elf aesthetics). |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3285 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 00:58:57
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Simple, Eladrin=Star Elf, Star Elf=Eladrin in 4E... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding." Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 00:59:46
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And since when were giants iconic and distinctive in FR? I find the Elves to be much more so. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 01:02:31
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The subraces are still there--there just isn't as much distinction in mechanics among them. There's absolutely no reason you can't take an eladrin and play him/her as a star elf--as you seem to have been doing.
I approve of Diffan's suggested feat, though I'd probably have made it something like when you feystep, you gain concealment, or each adjacent enemy suffers -2 to the next attack roll it makes before the end of your next turn, being dazzled by your otherworldy presence. Something of that nature, which I find more interesting than plain old combat advantage.
And you never know when some crazy designer (like myself, for instance) is going to create more specific rules that show up in a DDI article of a forthcoming sourcebook.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3285 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 03:30:53
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding." Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4425 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 03:47:23
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quote: Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
The subraces are still there--there just isn't as much distinction in mechanics among them. There's absolutely no reason you can't take an eladrin and play him/her as a star elf--as you seem to have been doing.
I approve of Diffan's suggested feat, though I'd probably have made it something like when you feystep, you gain concealment, or each adjacent enemy suffers -2 to the next attack roll it makes before the end of your next turn, being dazzled by your otherworldy presence. Something of that nature, which I find more interesting than plain old combat advantage.
And you never know when some crazy designer (like myself, for instance) is going to create more specific rules that show up in a DDI article of a forthcoming sourcebook.
Cheers
That's a much more rich and detailed idea than CA, though I thought of the feat on the spot. How 'bout this:
Star Elf Glamour: As you shift through Sildëyuir, you take some of that plane's etheralness with you. When you use your fey step racial power, you become insubstantial until the beginning of your next turn. Special: You cannot take this feat if you have the Moon Elf Resilience or Gold Elf Grace feats.
OR
Star Elf Presence Prerequisites: Eladrin, 11th level Your otherworldy presence is something to behold, dazzling your foes as you teleport to and from of Sildëyuir. Whenever you use your fey step racial power, any enemies you teleport adjacent to become dazed unti the beginning of your next turn. Special: You cannot take this feat if you have the Moon Elf Resilience or Gold Elf Grace feats.
There, hopefully that's a bit more flavorful and more Star Elvish than what I came up with before.
EDIT: Thanks to Erik for pointing out some balancing issues with Star Elf Presence. |
Edited by - Diffan on 14 Feb 2011 18:01:20 |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
485 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 03:51:08
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I have been working on stats for the various subraces of Eladrin, mostly Moon Eladrin, Sun Eladrin and Star Eladrin. Just haven't quite figured out what to give them for racial traits/powers. So far, though, here's what I've got.
Star Eladrin Average Height: 5’5”-6’0” Average Weight: 125-175 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma Size: Medium Speed: 6 squares Vision: Low-Light
Language: Elf, Common, Sylvan Skill Bonuses: +2 Arcana, +2 Nature
Play a Star Eladrin I you want… • to play a race that favors the bard, sorcerer, swordmage, and wizard classes.
Moon Eladrin Average Height: 4’5”-5’5” Average Weight: 125-175 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence Size: Medium Speed: 6 squares Vision: Low-light
Language: Common, Elven, Orc Skill Bonuses: +2 Acrobatics, +2 Arcana
Play a Moon Eladrin if you want • to play a race that favors the ranger, swordmage, warlord and wizard classes
Sun Eladrin Average Height: 4’9”-5’6” Average Weight: 135-185 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom Size: Medium Speed: 6 Squares Vision: Low-light
Language: Common, Elven, Sylvan Skill Bonuses: +2 Arcana, +2 History
Play a Sun Eladrin if you want • to play a race that favors the paladin, swordmage, warlock and wizard classes.
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Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823 Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036 Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787 Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353 Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 06:23:25
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Ok, admittedly giants are no where near as iconic as the dragons are. But elves are no where near as iconic as dragons are, either. Except maybe drow.
Granted, I am admittedly and unashamedly bais in this regard; I simply do not like elves of any sort. Well. There are a few concepts for elves that I liked alright but they never made it into the finished product of their respective settings. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven" - John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo; http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 14:42:45
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I like elves, but I've never seen a use for Star Elves -- at least not as a separate race. As a sort of subrace of another elven race (like a similar but slightly different version of moon elf, perhaps), they would have worked better for me. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7966 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 19:02:35
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As a curiosity — We have gold, silver, copper, and mithril elves. It might be argued that drow are adamantium elves. Are there any platinum, bronze, iron, or steel elves? Are gold/silver halfbreeds called electrum elves? |
[/Ayrik] |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 21:42:05
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quote: Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
This is one of those instances where the needs (or requirements) of the latest edition of D&D game rules trumps setting lore.
Not a need or requirement, just the opinions of the designers. You know, that revolving door of employees down at WOTC. |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true." Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 03:20:02
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Lets not have another thread slide downhill please.
The subraces have been relegated back to the DM's job, as so much of D&D used to be in the elder days of yore. Funny how when folks get used to something they start to expect it.
Two sets of mechanics are one set too many, IMHO - there are other ways to differentiate the subraces (like using cultural feats, racial traits, weapon choices, magic, etc). To me, those things define a 'sub-race'. If you start changing stats, then that's a RACE, plain and simple.
The basic model for a PC race should be included in the rules, and anything pertaining to culture should be in the setting guides or (more likely in 4e), the DM's imagination. 'Flavor' shouldn't be part of D&D rules (other settings have rules built specifically for them, but D&D isn't made like that - its generic fantasy). Star Elves fall under 'flavor', and that's why I think their omission is no big deal.
The best thing 4e ever did was give DMs back the reins of the game. Imagination is what D&D is really all about, not how many books you own, or the sweetest build you can come up with.
You want to play a star Elf? BE a Star Elf... its that simple. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 03:55:18
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You want to play a star Elf? BE a Star Elf... its that simple.
Well said Markus. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 04:49:30
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quote: Originally posted by Markustay
Two sets of mechanics are one set too many, IMHO - there are other ways to differentiate the subraces (like using cultural feats, racial traits, weapon choices, magic, etc). To me, those things define a 'sub-race'. If you start changing stats, then that's a RACE, plain and simple.
I dunno, I don't see a problem with mechanics helping define a subrace. All elves are long-lived, have pointy ears and an innate connection to the Weave. Just because one group is more dextrous and the other more charming, it doesn't change the fact that they still live for half of forever with their pointy ears.
So while I agree that each subrace should have its own feats, traits, and cultural options, I don't see an issue with having minor physical differences from each other. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4425 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 11:02:46
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quote: Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So while I agree that each subrace should have its own feats, traits, and cultural options, I don't see an issue with having minor physical differences from each other.
I think it's because if you start doing that, then specific sub-races start defining what kind of class your going to play. As all of the classes in 4E rely heavily on Ability scores, it'll make a big difference when choosing which "sub-race" of elven would be a better fit for a fighter (moon elf), wizard (gold elf), or warlock (star elf). As it stands, a Moon elf is just as good as being a wizard than a gold elf and a star elf is just as good at being a fighter as a moon elf. Mechanical advantages come from playing an Eladrin, not the sub-race.
Besides, I think that's why they invented Flex-stats in the Player's Handbook 3 and retro-fitted all the previous races with them. So now Eladrin gain +2 Dex; +2 Int or +2 Cha which can mechanically influence what sub-race of eladrin you want to play as a Gold elf would most definitly choose +2 Dex, +2 Int where a Moon or Star elf would more likely choose +2 Dex, +2 Cha. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 15:03:03
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quote: Originally posted by Diffan
quote: Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So while I agree that each subrace should have its own feats, traits, and cultural options, I don't see an issue with having minor physical differences from each other.
I think it's because if you start doing that, then specific sub-races start defining what kind of class your going to play. As all of the classes in 4E rely heavily on Ability scores, it'll make a big difference when choosing which "sub-race" of elven would be a better fit for a fighter (moon elf), wizard (gold elf), or warlock (star elf). As it stands, a Moon elf is just as good as being a wizard than a gold elf and a star elf is just as good at being a fighter as a moon elf. Mechanical advantages come from playing an Eladrin, not the sub-race.
In prior editions, you had to have certain ability scores to be certain classes, and it worked out with some races naturally being better at certain classes than others. I don't see why that's suddenly an issue, or why every single race/class combination has to be just as good as every other.
When I'm making a new character, I go for concept, first, and then worry about the rules. If I want to play a moon elf fighter, I'm going to play a moon elf fighter, even if a gold elf or a dwarf or a half-titan would be slightly better. I don't need a ruleset to have a built-in equalizer to make me want to play a moon elf instead of a gold elf, or a shield dwarf instead of a gold dwarf, or even a human instead of a gnome. |
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