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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2011 :  14:01:57  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Well met

This is a Book Club thread for Gauntlgrym, by RA Salvatore. Please discuss the Prologue and chapters 1 - 4 herein.

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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
826 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2011 :  07:17:59  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Excellent opening. Although I wish I could had had more background on Jessa the Orc. Was interesting to see characters interacting favorably with an orc.

The scenes with Pwent + Bruenor were heartbreaking and well done.
One thing that really struck me in the heart was the parallel between how Gandalug spoke of Cromower Pwent and how Bruenor did of his right arm Pwent.

In the bonus chapter of the legacy before Gandalug was captured by Yvonel Baerne 2000 years prior, Gandalug noted how smelly and noisy Cromower was and how many dwarves could not stand him, but how hundreds of years of battling side by side with someone and saving each others lives dozens of times makes one overlook that. How he could not have asked for a better traveling partner and friend.

Bruenor's reflections on Pwent mirrored that so well that it brought a tear to my eye. I was very sad in the scene early on when Pwent told Bruenor that his knees would no longer support him and that he could no longer go with him.

I knew who Barrabus the gray was simply due to his bitter sarcastic rhetoric and dedication to fighting perfection and his binding to "The claw", a red bladed sword that throws ash lines just sealed it.

Dahlia's character introduction was well done. I have heard many people complain about it and the graphic nature of it, but her, you can't please everyone. Some call her irreversibly evil due to throwing a child off the cliff, but forget that her child is a part tiefling. Most elves would not blink an eye at killing one of those things, as most Tieflings are inherently evil.

Edited by - Firestorm on 28 Jan 2011 07:24:36
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3563 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2011 :  11:45:23  Show Profile Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

Excellent opening. Although I wish I could had had more background on Jessa the Orc. Was interesting to see characters interacting favorably with an orc.

The scenes with Pwent + Bruenor were heartbreaking and well done.
One thing that really struck me in the heart was the parallel between how Gandalug spoke of Cromower Pwent and how Bruenor did of his right arm Pwent.

In the bonus chapter of the legacy before Gandalug was captured by Yvonel Baerne 2000 years prior, Gandalug noted how smelly and noisy Cromower was and how many dwarves could not stand him, but how hundreds of years of battling side by side with someone and saving each others lives dozens of times makes one overlook that. How he could not have asked for a better traveling partner and friend.

Bruenor's reflections on Pwent mirrored that so well that it brought a tear to my eye. I was very sad in the scene early on when Pwent told Bruenor that his knees would no longer support him and that he could no longer go with him.

I knew who Barrabus the gray was simply due to his bitter sarcastic rhetoric and dedication to fighting perfection and his binding to "The claw", a red bladed sword that throws ash lines just sealed it.

Dahlia's character introduction was well done. I have heard many people complain about it and the graphic nature of it, but her, you can't please everyone. Some call her irreversibly evil due to throwing a child off the cliff, but forget that her child is a part tiefling. Most elves would not blink an eye at killing one of those things, as most Tieflings are inherently evil.



Interesting.....I wonder when she will throw Drizzt off of a cliff, afterall, he is a drow and the vast majority of the are inherently evil

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
826 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2011 :  12:08:30  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

Excellent opening. Although I wish I could had had more background on Jessa the Orc. Was interesting to see characters interacting favorably with an orc.

The scenes with Pwent + Bruenor were heartbreaking and well done.
One thing that really struck me in the heart was the parallel between how Gandalug spoke of Cromower Pwent and how Bruenor did of his right arm Pwent.

In the bonus chapter of the legacy before Gandalug was captured by Yvonel Baerne 2000 years prior, Gandalug noted how smelly and noisy Cromower was and how many dwarves could not stand him, but how hundreds of years of battling side by side with someone and saving each others lives dozens of times makes one overlook that. How he could not have asked for a better traveling partner and friend.

Bruenor's reflections on Pwent mirrored that so well that it brought a tear to my eye. I was very sad in the scene early on when Pwent told Bruenor that his knees would no longer support him and that he could no longer go with him.

I knew who Barrabus the gray was simply due to his bitter sarcastic rhetoric and dedication to fighting perfection and his binding to "The claw", a red bladed sword that throws ash lines just sealed it.

Dahlia's character introduction was well done. I have heard many people complain about it and the graphic nature of it, but her, you can't please everyone. Some call her irreversibly evil due to throwing a child off the cliff, but forget that her child is a part tiefling. Most elves would not blink an eye at killing one of those things, as most Tieflings are inherently evil.



Interesting.....I wonder when she will throw Drizzt off of a cliff, afterall, he is a drow and the vast majority of the are inherently evil



Hehe. I see your point(In a sense. Most were trying to kill Drizzt outright without hearing his side of the story when they first met him too). But in the sense of the arguments I have seen thus far regarding her, many people are throwing her under the truck as being irredeemably evil due to this one act, saying "Despite what she went through, this act makes her irreversably evil in my eyes and there is no excuse for it"

In most sourcebooks I have seen, Half devil spawn, with a few exceptions, are considered inherently evil. People on other forums are arguing in the sense of real life. Thinking of human mothers who do things like this to human children because they were raped, and calling it evil, instead of looking at it from the fantasy point of view, where in this case, the mother was raped and by a being of devil blood, making the child of devil blood, or ignoring the fact that Devil blood characters are often mercilessly hunted down and killed by most elves, no questions asked.
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3563 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2011 :  15:53:14  Show Profile Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

Excellent opening. Although I wish I could had had more background on Jessa the Orc. Was interesting to see characters interacting favorably with an orc.

The scenes with Pwent + Bruenor were heartbreaking and well done.
One thing that really struck me in the heart was the parallel between how Gandalug spoke of Cromower Pwent and how Bruenor did of his right arm Pwent.

In the bonus chapter of the legacy before Gandalug was captured by Yvonel Baerne 2000 years prior, Gandalug noted how smelly and noisy Cromower was and how many dwarves could not stand him, but how hundreds of years of battling side by side with someone and saving each others lives dozens of times makes one overlook that. How he could not have asked for a better traveling partner and friend.

Bruenor's reflections on Pwent mirrored that so well that it brought a tear to my eye. I was very sad in the scene early on when Pwent told Bruenor that his knees would no longer support him and that he could no longer go with him.

I knew who Barrabus the gray was simply due to his bitter sarcastic rhetoric and dedication to fighting perfection and his binding to "The claw", a red bladed sword that throws ash lines just sealed it.

Dahlia's character introduction was well done. I have heard many people complain about it and the graphic nature of it, but her, you can't please everyone. Some call her irreversibly evil due to throwing a child off the cliff, but forget that her child is a part tiefling. Most elves would not blink an eye at killing one of those things, as most Tieflings are inherently evil.



Interesting.....I wonder when she will throw Drizzt off of a cliff, afterall, he is a drow and the vast majority of the are inherently evil



Hehe. I see your point(In a sense. Most were trying to kill Drizzt outright without hearing his side of the story when they first met him too). But in the sense of the arguments I have seen thus far regarding her, many people are throwing her under the truck as being irredeemably evil due to this one act, saying "Despite what she went through, this act makes her irreversably evil in my eyes and there is no excuse for it"

In most sourcebooks I have seen, Half devil spawn, with a few exceptions, are considered inherently evil. People on other forums are arguing in the sense of real life. Thinking of human mothers who do things like this to human children because they were raped, and calling it evil, instead of looking at it from the fantasy point of view, where in this case, the mother was raped and by a being of devil blood, making the child of devil blood, or ignoring the fact that Devil blood characters are often mercilessly hunted down and killed by most elves, no questions asked.




I had to say it....glad you realized it wasn't pointed at you! Ill continue to read your scrolls on this book, as I am on the fence on whether to purchase or not.

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe

USA
379 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2011 :  19:50:50  Show Profile  Visit Lady Fellshot's Homepage Send Lady Fellshot a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

Dahlia's character introduction was well done. I have heard many people complain about it and the graphic nature of it, but her, you can't please everyone. Some call her irreversibly evil due to throwing a child off the cliff, but forget that her child is a part tiefling. Most elves would not blink an eye at killing one of those things, as most Tieflings are inherently evil.



Were that true, then why does she feel guilty about it later? It explicitly states that she later thinks that the child did not deserve to die.

Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here.
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
826 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2011 :  21:19:17  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

Dahlia's character introduction was well done. I have heard many people complain about it and the graphic nature of it, but her, you can't please everyone. Some call her irreversibly evil due to throwing a child off the cliff, but forget that her child is a part tiefling. Most elves would not blink an eye at killing one of those things, as most Tieflings are inherently evil.



Were that true, then why does she feel guilty about it later? It explicitly states that she later thinks that the child did not deserve to die.



Who knows? In real life many people who commit filicide claim to feel horrible about it later. I can't really speak for the mindset of a messed up elf who was raped by a halfDevil shade when she was an infant though.

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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2011 :  23:55:30  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
She realized, all too late, that it had been an immoral act. I agree that it was immoral.

But there are mitigating circumstances that would reduce her deserved sentence, here. She had been traumatized, and thus probably wasn't in her right mind. And she was only 12-years-old. If we take seriously the argument made in another scroll that age 12 for an elf is like an especially immature human, then we really need to question how responsible Dahlia could possibly be for her actions, and how much blame she truly bears, and how guilty she should truly feel.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe

USA
379 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2011 :  04:19:30  Show Profile  Visit Lady Fellshot's Homepage Send Lady Fellshot a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

Dahlia's character introduction was well done. I have heard many people complain about it and the graphic nature of it, but her, you can't please everyone. Some call her irreversibly evil due to throwing a child off the cliff, but forget that her child is a part tiefling. Most elves would not blink an eye at killing one of those things, as most Tieflings are inherently evil.



Were that true, then why does she feel guilty about it later? It explicitly states that she later thinks that the child did not deserve to die.



Who knows? In real life many people who commit filicide claim to feel horrible about it later. I can't really speak for the mindset of a messed up elf who was raped by a halfDevil shade when she was an infant though.



The term you are searching for is infanticide.

If Dahlia's parent culture considers killing an "inherently evil" teifling regardless of age inconsequencial, then there's no reason to feel any more guilty over it than a drow sacrificing an unfit newborn to Lolth. If the support group is telling the girl that "it's ok, you were justified, etc" then I think that it's unlikely it would trouble her enough to make a halfhearted attempt to betray her bosses.

However, if elves do not approve of throwing babies off cliffs regardless of ancestry and how they were conceived (this is a race that managed to turn a baby red dragon to good after all) it would explain rather neatly why Dahlia isn't in Myth Drannor's or Evereska's armed forces.

There's much less reason to feel guilty over it if one is making their living as an assassin and sexual predator and was explicitly looking to get back at the father of the unwanted child when it was killed (again, directly stated). Blind rage and revenge would work as motives, but those are never expounded up on later.

I would call Dahlia evil, because no matter how awful her past was (and I know people who've had experiences similar to hers at near the same age), she is pretty definitively shown to be a horrible person in her later life. My sympathies were more solidly with Sylora through this section. After the way Dahlia treated her before killing one of Sylora's lovers, why should I think of Dahlia as anything other than a murdering seductress, unfortunate childhood or not?

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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
826 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2011 :  05:25:22  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:

The term you are searching for is infanticide.

Meh, both terms fit.
Filicide is the act of a parent killing their own son or daughter(no age bracket).

quote:
If Dahlia's parent culture considers killing an "inherently evil" teifling regardless of age inconsequencial, then there's no reason to feel any more guilty over it than a drow sacrificing an unfit newborn to Lolth. If the support group is telling the girl that "it's ok, you were justified, etc" then I think that it's unlikely it would trouble her enough to make a halfhearted attempt to betray her bosses.

Many elves would not care about sacrificed Drow babies either. Obviously not all of them would be so callous, but many would. I don't understand where you are going with the "betray your bosses" part. Could you elaborate?

quote:
However, if elves do not approve of throwing babies off cliffs regardless of ancestry and how they were conceived (this is a race that managed to turn a baby red dragon to good after all) it would explain rather neatly why Dahlia isn't in Myth Drannor's or Evereska's armed forces.

And yet it is also a race who had many gold elves(Many of them lawful good and thinking they were doing the right thing, although lead by an evil leader) trying to assassinate the ruling Moon elf family to restore the gold elves to their place of glory like the days of Myth Drannor.

In any case, Ill admit I have not seen a huge amount of Tieflings in realms books, and m favorite one was good. But I am going by sourcebooks and my interpretation of the sourcebooks on how most Tieflings are regarded and treated.

quote:
There's much less reason to feel guilty over it if one is making their living as an assassin and sexual predator and was explicitly looking to get back at the father of the unwanted child when it was killed (again, directly stated). Blind rage and revenge would work as motives, but those are never expounded up on later.

Not Yet. They will likely further tell her story in the next book.
My problem is with people who think she is irredeemably evil, when in fact, she is evil yes, but not irredeemably so.

quote:
I would call Dahlia evil, because no matter how awful her past was (and I know people who've had experiences similar to hers at near the same age), she is pretty definitively shown to be a horrible person in her later life. My sympathies were more solidly with Sylora through this section. After the way Dahlia treated her before killing one of Sylora's lovers, why should I think of Dahlia as anything other than a murdering seductress, unfortunate childhood or not?


I never said she was not evil. You mistake me. My problem is with those who call her irredeemably evil due to that one act. People who say, no matter what she does now, she will always be considered evil.

I personally think a elf child, barely young enough to conceive being raped by a half Devil, and seeing the Devil child born, knowing the rapist was coming back to claim it and do yet more to her might have been slightly beyond reason and just wanted to hurt the Devil who did it to her.

The fact that she looks at it differently now that she is older only proves that there is a conscience in there somewhere and that she is not irredeemable, as one put it.

I can't really sympathize with Sylora on any level. After all, she was in charge of murdering all the peasants in that area to construct the area ring and does not seem to have even a slip of conscience over mass murder. Dahlia on the other hand, has shown regret over the amount of people slain and following Tam, and that, combined with revenge over Sylora, is why she ended up fighting alongside our goodly ranger.

Granted she is still evil and one messed up little lady, but she is not irredeemable.
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe

USA
379 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2011 :  04:56:31  Show Profile  Visit Lady Fellshot's Homepage Send Lady Fellshot a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Dahlia on the other hand, has shown regret over the amount of people slain and following Tam, and that, combined with revenge over Sylora, is why she ended up fighting alongside our goodly ranger.

Granted she is still evil and one messed up little lady, but she is not irredeemable.


I still think that Dahlia was better written as a villain. The redemption trope is somewhat overdone and here it felt forced to make her a palatable love interest.

At this point, I just want her to expire as quickly as possible and maybe force some motivation into Drizzy (if we're really lucky). As far as I could tell, her past had utterly no bearing to the story and as such probably could have been left for book two, particularly since nothing in her past was used in her present at all, not even for anything so simple as revenge against the Shadovar. I was dreadfully disappointed that the entire book avoided focusing on narrative protagonists.


quote:
I can't really sympathize with Sylora on any level. After all, she was in charge of murdering all the peasants in that area to construct the area ring and does not seem to have even a slip of conscience over mass murder.


Sylora I can at least enjoy for her clear motives and that she seems to be a good start to a villain. I appreciate a decent antagonist. But for that scene on page 35... I don't care what Dahlia's past was, she seems to have invited Sylora's wrath and is very much an abuser herself.

Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here.
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3563 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  22:59:01  Show Profile Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wife gave me a gift card, so I finally picked this up......got through the prologue and most of the first chapter.....


Really, really do not like this Dahlia at all......the whole magical wooden stake that
transforms into a ring....uggh...is she destined to be yet another ra character who has a magic item for every need?

I'm not going to bash or say anything else negative., im just kinda sad I seem to have outgrown Drizzt, but it happens. (He managed to hold my interest much longer than his his predecessor, Elric) Just how much is this chick featured? Is she a new major character? If so that's cool, i just wanna know so I can just return the book and wait for Shadowbane , El must die or try out the new chosen of nendawen novel.

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe

USA
379 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2011 :  23:42:27  Show Profile  Visit Lady Fellshot's Homepage Send Lady Fellshot a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Without spoilers, I would suppose that she is indeed a new major character if only because she appears to feature on the cover of RAS's next Realms book.

Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here.
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2011 :  22:23:53  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I read in an interview that RAS had originally intended to kill her off, or at least remove her from the story, at some point in Gauntlgrym. But as he started writing for her he started liking her character more and more.

I think the early chapters of Gaunt were the biggest disappointment for me. Obould dies of old age off screen right off the bat. Drizzt's adventure's with the gnome and the orc girl are skipped over completely(setting up a graphic novel, I heard, but I didn't know that while reading), and some of the more painful scenes with Dahlia take place there. The whole affair left a bad taste in my mouth for the rest of the book.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2011 :  02:22:02  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot

I still think that Dahlia was better written as a villain. The redemption trope is somewhat overdone and here it felt forced to make her a palatable love interest.

I'd agree. I can see Bob playing with the idea of redeeming her, but I hope it fails. I hope she is irreparably broken, and Drizzt can't get through to her. I want her to realize that she's not good enough for Drizzt, and refuse to stay with him, breaking his heart. It would be a far nobler thing than taking advantage of his generosity.

But she seems to already be well on her way to being fixed, now that she's gotten new friends (Part 2).

quote:
As far as I could tell, her past had utterly no bearing to the story and as such probably could have been left for book two, particularly since nothing in her past was used in her present at all, not even for anything so simple as revenge against the Shadovar.

I disagree. Dahlia is keen on causing a catastrophe along the Sword Coast North (1:1:29) where the Netherese Shadovar are engaged (1:1:27) in a large operation to find the Xenlenal Enclave (1:3:53). She is especially interested in going where they are clustered, and where she was raped as a child (P1:C1), as opposed to, say, any other place. (There are Netherese in Calimshan to the south where Barrabus the Gray frequents, so why doesn't she care to unleash a catastrophere there?)

We are outright told that Dor'crae's mention of the Neverwinter region brings to her mind memories that she uses as reminders of the wretchedness of the world (1:1:28). And apparently, that's basically what drives her as a character.

After the explosion, Sylora quickly brings renegade Dahlia back into the Thayan fold. Part of the way she does this is by stipulating that Dahlia will be able to go out into the Neverwinter Wood and fight the Shadovar directly, and is there anything Dahlia would rather do than that (1:9:147)?

And beyond simple exegesis, I have hypothesized that the Thayans used Dahlia's hatred of the Netherese as part of a brainwashing program to turn her into some sort of living weapon for the Thayan court. Szass Tam seems to be quite pleased with her murderous track record, himself, and even defends her against Sylora (1:1:31).

But that's just my own personal attempt to offer a coherent explanation for all of this. I will concede that the connections between her past trauma and her present activity are not made as clear as I would like. That's unfortunate.

quote:
Sylora I can at least enjoy for her clear motives and that she seems to be a good start to a villain. I appreciate a decent antagonist. But for that scene on page 35... I don't care what Dahlia's past was, she seems to have invited Sylora's wrath and is very much an abuser herself.

Clarity with Sylora hardly redeems her in my mind.

And I hardly think that Dahlia invited Sylora's wrath. Sylora is apparently simply a petty and jealous witch. The witch sent her boytoy Themerelis to spy on Dahlia to learn about the pending mission to the Sword Coast North (1:1:30). This wasn't just an academic exercise; Szass Tam mentions that Sylora has ample access to libraries (1:5:91).

Sylora spends the entire book degrading Dahlia and her efforts regarding the mission, and even predicts to Tam that Dahlia can't possibly succeed (1:5:90-91). It sounds like Sylora was determined to prevent Dahlia from succeeding, simply due to jealousy and coveting.

How did Dahlia supposedly invite that sort of animosity?

When Dahlia learned of Themerelis's assignment, she seduced him, to get back at Sylora (1:1:30). Sylora was obviously ticked. But if anything, Sylora invited that upon herself by sending her man-whore in there in the first place.

When Themerelis reports back to Sylora, she then tells him to go back to his work (1:1:30)--meaning, return to spying on and shacking up with Dahlia. Sylora is so determined to wreck Dahlia's mission that she sends him "on assignent" yet again!

As Dahlia leaves her room one last time, Sylora snipes at her with caustic remarks. The witch is instigator, here. They go back and forth about Dahlia's mirror, and about their respective degrees of beauty, and then about Themerelis. That's when Dahlia grabs Sylora's crotch and taunts her about getting old (1:1:35).

So it's OK for Sylora to send a man in to Dahlia's crotch before a big mission, but it's not OK for Dahlia to grab Sylora's? Dahlia is the one inviting wrath, here, right? She deserved to be betrayed and left for dead inside a volcano (1:8:137), right?

At some unspecified point during Dahlia's and Dor'crae's mission in the Sword Coast North, apparently after having reported back to Thay, Dor'crae switches sides and becomes Sylora's agent (1:5:91 & 1:7:125). How'd that happen? Sylora must've stolen him from Dahlia--that's how. She is determined to wreck Dahlia's efforts with the mission.

It is only when Sylora teleports herself into Gauntlgrym (1:7:126) and stands at the door right outside the lever room (1:8:136) that Dahlia then experiences feelings of guilt for the baby, and by extension feels guilt for the future victims of her catastrophic mission (1:8:135-136). My guess is that Sylora temporarily lifted the brainwashing/mind control right then.

And while there is no mention of Dahlia ever wrecking one of Sylora's missions and taking the credit for it, that's exactly what Sylora seems to do (1:9:146).

No, Dahlia did not invite Sylora's wrath upon herself. She simply asserted herself within the Thayan court, as her master Szass Tam wished her to do, and then defended herself boldly against a jealous, shrewish older woman. For that, she was deceived, left for dead, and then later subjected to mind control and turned into a servant.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3563 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2011 :  16:43:55  Show Profile Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST

quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot

I still think that Dahlia was better written as a villain. The redemption trope is somewhat overdone and here it felt forced to make her a palatable love interest.

I'd agree. I can see Bob playing with the idea of redeeming her, but I hope it fails. I hope she is irreparably broken, and Drizzt can't get through to her. I want her to realize that she's not good enough for Drizzt, and refuse to stay with him, breaking his heart. It would be a far nobler thing than taking advantage of his generosity.

But she seems to already be well on her way to being fixed, now that she's gotten new friends (Part 2).

quote:
As far as I could tell, her past had utterly no bearing to the story and as such probably could have been left for book two, particularly since nothing in her past was used in her present at all, not even for anything so simple as revenge against the Shadovar.

I disagree. Dahlia is keen on causing a catastrophe along the Sword Coast North (1:1:29) where the Netherese Shadovar are engaged (1:1:27) in a large operation to find the Xenlenal Enclave (1:3:53). She is especially interested in going where they are clustered, and where she was raped as a child (P1:C1), as opposed to, say, any other place. (There are Netherese in Calimshan to the south where Barrabus the Gray frequents, so why doesn't she care to unleash a catastrophere there?)

We are outright told that Dor'crae's mention of the Neverwinter region brings to her mind memories that she uses as reminders of the wretchedness of the world (1:1:28). And apparently, that's basically what drives her as a character.

After the explosion, Sylora quickly brings renegade Dahlia back into the Thayan fold. Part of the way she does this is by stipulating that Dahlia will be able to go out into the Neverwinter Wood and fight the Shadovar directly, and is there anything Dahlia would rather do than that (1:9:147)?

And beyond simple exegesis, I have hypothesized that the Thayans used Dahlia's hatred of the Netherese as part of a brainwashing program to turn her into some sort of living weapon for the Thayan court. Szass Tam seems to be quite pleased with her murderous track record, himself, and even defends her against Sylora (1:1:31).

But that's just my own personal attempt to offer a coherent explanation for all of this. I will concede that the connections between her past trauma and her present activity are not made as clear as I would like. That's unfortunate.

quote:
Sylora I can at least enjoy for her clear motives and that she seems to be a good start to a villain. I appreciate a decent antagonist. But for that scene on page 35... I don't care what Dahlia's past was, she seems to have invited Sylora's wrath and is very much an abuser herself.

Clarity with Sylora hardly redeems her in my mind.

And I hardly think that Dahlia invited Sylora's wrath. Sylora is apparently simply a petty and jealous witch. The witch sent her boytoy Themerelis to spy on Dahlia to learn about the pending mission to the Sword Coast North (1:1:30). This wasn't just an academic exercise; Szass Tam mentions that Sylora has ample access to libraries (1:5:91).

Sylora spends the entire book degrading Dahlia and her efforts regarding the mission, and even predicts to Tam that Dahlia can't possibly succeed (1:5:90-91). It sounds like Sylora was determined to prevent Dahlia from succeeding, simply due to jealousy and coveting.

How did Dahlia supposedly invite that sort of animosity?

When Dahlia learned of Themerelis's assignment, she seduced him, to get back at Sylora (1:1:30). Sylora was obviously ticked. But if anything, Sylora invited that upon herself by sending her man-whore in there in the first place.

When Themerelis reports back to Sylora, she then tells him to go back to his work (1:1:30)--meaning, return to spying on and shacking up with Dahlia. Sylora is so determined to wreck Dahlia's mission that she sends him "on assignent" yet again!

As Dahlia leaves her room one last time, Sylora snipes at her with caustic remarks. The witch is instigator, here. They go back and forth about Dahlia's mirror, and about their respective degrees of beauty, and then about Themerelis. That's when Dahlia grabs Sylora's crotch and taunts her about getting old (1:1:35).

So it's OK for Sylora to send a man in to Dahlia's crotch before a big mission, but it's not OK for Dahlia to grab Sylora's? Dahlia is the one inviting wrath, here, right? She deserved to be betrayed and left for dead inside a volcano (1:8:137), right?

At some unspecified point during Dahlia's and Dor'crae's mission in the Sword Coast North, apparently after having reported back to Thay, Dor'crae switches sides and becomes Sylora's agent (1:5:91 & 1:7:125). How'd that happen? Sylora must've stolen him from Dahlia--that's how. She is determined to wreck Dahlia's efforts with the mission.

It is only when Sylora teleports herself into Gauntlgrym (1:7:126) and stands at the door right outside the lever room (1:8:136) that Dahlia then experiences feelings of guilt for the baby, and by extension feels guilt for the future victims of her catastrophic mission (1:8:135-136). My guess is that Sylora temporarily lifted the brainwashing/mind control right then.

And while there is no mention of Dahlia ever wrecking one of Sylora's missions and taking the credit for it, that's exactly what Sylora seems to do (1:9:146).

No, Dahlia did not invite Sylora's wrath upon herself. She simply asserted herself within the Thayan court, as her master Szass Tam wished her to do, and then defended herself boldly against a jealous, shrewish older woman. For that, she was deceived, left for dead, and then later subjected to mind control and turned into a servant.



Oh my....way too much Drama for me!

Thanks for sharing!

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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BEAST
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Posted - 21 Feb 2011 :  23:16:49  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

Oh my....way too much Drama for me!

Thanks for sharing!

Hahaha!

Drama might not be be your cup o' tea, Red. That's understandable.

But I'm just trying to show that there was more character development going on with Dahlia than what has been made out. It's disjointed and convoluted and melo, but it's in there.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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Lady Fellshot
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Posted - 22 Feb 2011 :  02:24:42  Show Profile  Visit Lady Fellshot's Homepage Send Lady Fellshot a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

I read in an interview that RAS had originally intended to kill her off, or at least remove her from the story, at some point in Gauntlgrym. But as he started writing for her he started liking her character more and more.

I think the early chapters of Gaunt were the biggest disappointment for me. Obould dies of old age off screen right off the bat. Drizzt's adventure's with the gnome and the orc girl are skipped over completely(setting up a graphic novel, I heard, but I didn't know that while reading), and some of the more painful scenes with Dahlia take place there. The whole affair left a bad taste in my mouth for the rest of the book.



That kind of disturbs me for two reasons. First I see utterly nothing even remotely likable about this Dahlia creature as a character or as a part of the story. There was a failure to convey this on both counts for me and I think that his first reaction would have been the better of the two. Second, Salvatore doesn't kill his darlings very frequently and I cannot shake the suspicion that he did so recently solely because of the 4e timeshift.

Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here.
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Lady Fellshot
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Posted - 22 Feb 2011 :  04:10:30  Show Profile  Visit Lady Fellshot's Homepage Send Lady Fellshot a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST

quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot

I still think that Dahlia was better written as a villain. The redemption trope is somewhat overdone and here it felt forced to make her a palatable love interest.

I'd agree. I can see Bob playing with the idea of redeeming her, but I hope it fails. I hope she is irreparably broken, and Drizzt can't get through to her. I want her to realize that she's not good enough for Drizzt, and refuse to stay with him, breaking his heart. It would be a far nobler thing than taking advantage of his generosity.

But she seems to already be well on her way to being fixed, now that she's gotten new friends (Part 2).



When given the choice between the minor character who was okay in her capacity as a weapon for hire and the dead narrative weight she was later, I will go for the earlier rendition that had better story function. And Drizzt is hardly the sort of friend I would want.

quote:
So it's OK for Sylora to send a man in to Dahlia's crotch before a big mission, but it's not OK for Dahlia to grab Sylora's? Dahlia is the one inviting wrath, here, right? She deserved to be betrayed and left for dead inside a volcano (1:8:137), right?

At some unspecified point during Dahlia's and Dor'crae's mission in the Sword Coast North, apparently after having reported back to Thay, Dor'crae switches sides and becomes Sylora's agent (1:5:91 & 1:7:125). How'd that happen? Sylora must've stolen him from Dahlia--that's how. She is determined to wreck Dahlia's efforts with the mission.

It is only when Sylora teleports herself into Gauntlgrym (1:7:126) and stands at the door right outside the lever room (1:8:136) that Dahlia then experiences feelings of guilt for the baby, and by extension feels guilt for the future victims of her catastrophic mission (1:8:135-136). My guess is that Sylora temporarily lifted the brainwashing/mind control right then.

And while there is no mention of Dahlia ever wrecking one of Sylora's missions and taking the credit for it, that's exactly what Sylora seems to do (1:9:146).

No, Dahlia did not invite Sylora's wrath upon herself. She simply asserted herself within the Thayan court, as her master Szass Tam wished her to do, and then defended herself boldly against a jealous, shrewish older woman. For that, she was deceived, left for dead, and then later subjected to mind control and turned into a servant.



So you are saying that what would appear to be a mostly consensual sexual relationship between Dahlia and Sylora's spy/boitoi (the major betrayal seemed to be one of information passing rather than bedroom antics) excuses a sexual assault on Sylora. I am so very sorry, I didn't realize that crying and muttering curses at the person who sexually assaults you and laughs at your "weakness" made it unreasonable to hate their guts and wish them dead.

It would also seem that Sylora would bear a grudge for the death of one of her friends but recognizes that Dahlia is currently in Szass Tam's favor. You seem to think that it's horrible that Sylora went about discrediting Dahlia, but I think the better question would be why wouldn't she go about discrediting someone she doesn't like very much (to say the very least) and killing her if she thinks she could do it without catching flak? Really, if you are going to complain about a manipulative bad guy (or gal) with a perfectly good motive to not like an assigned minion and attempt to get rid of said minion, please do it in a better way than saying "Oh Sylora should have been nice to poor little defenseless Dahlia."

Dor'crae's motives for switching sides are simple and transparent: he fears for his safety around Dahlia. She killed everyone else who ever slept with her, why wouldn't he throw in his lot with someone more stable?

If you want to run with the theory that "poor little Dahlia" was brainwashed, fine, but it would be a mark of extremely poor character development, planning and editing. Especially when it is so much easier to believe that she decided somewhere deep down (like when she says her 12 year old self died) that she wasn't like the other "weak elves" that were gang raped and instead become big and strong and kick others around so that they wouldn't kick her around or infringe upon her "need for dominance". She gets to the Thayans (because of course she doesn't want the "weak elves'" help) and they just reinforce what she already believes. Why should they bother to mess with something that's already in solidly in place?

Sorry, but I'll take the sorceress who has motives and does a decent job at being evil over the author's darling with the ill conceived redemption arc and tent pole.

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BEAST
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Posted - 23 Feb 2011 :  07:58:01  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot

When given the choice between the minor character who was okay in her capacity as a weapon for hire and the dead narrative weight she was later, I will go for the earlier rendition that had better story function. And Drizzt is hardly the sort of friend I would want.

A discussion of her characterization later in the book would probably best occur in the scrolls dedicated to the later parts of the book. Suffice it to say, I disagree that she was dead narrative weight. Her story isn't told very well, but I believe there's still more to her than you give credit for.

quote:
So you are saying that what would appear to be a mostly consensual sexual relationship between Dahlia and Sylora's spy/boitoi (the major betrayal seemed to be one of information passing rather than bedroom antics) excuses a sexual assault on Sylora.

No, I'm saying that Sylora's attempts to undermine Dahlia's mission constituted Sylora inviting Dahlia's wrath upon her. You indicated that Dahlia had invited Sylora's wrath, but I think you got it backward.

Nothing excuses Dahlia being crude.

However, I would say that her act was probably tame by Thayan standards.

quote:
I am so very sorry, I didn't realize that crying and muttering curses at the person who sexually assaults you and laughs at your "weakness" made it unreasonable to hate their guts and wish them dead.

Sylora wished Dahlia dead before Dahlia ever grabbed her. Sylora hated Dahlia for sleeping with Themerelis. And how she wished to be rid of her! She even asks Tam why he tolerates the little wench.

Never mind that Sylora knowingly sent her boytoy in to the oversexed little elf girl in the first place.

And never mind that Sylora was probably spying on Dahlia's mission specifically so she could wreck Dahlia's efforts and somehow take over and get the credit for it.

And then, just to show us how brilliant she truly is, Sylora decides to get snarky with Dahlia as the elf is heading out the door. Yes, by RL standards, Dahlia crossed the line by grabbing Sylora. But Sylora started it, and she did so with a known loose cannon.

And lastly, while grabbing a snarky woman's crotch is overboard, setting a volcano off and then leaving that crotch-grabber to die inside the unstable volcano is so, to an even greater degree.

Sylora appears to have started the feud, and to have escalated it, big time.

quote:
It would also seem that Sylora would bear a grudge for the death of one of her friends but recognizes that Dahlia is currently in Szass Tam's favor.

It's possible that Sylora might hold a grudge, but the book doesn't say so. It says that Sylora and Cahdamine had been friends years before, when they were off murdering peasants together. It doesn't say that they remained friends, or that Sylora wished to avenge her past friend.

quote:
You seem to think that it's horrible that Sylora went about discrediting Dahlia, but I think the better question would be why wouldn't she go about discrediting someone she doesn't like very much (to say the very least) and killing her if she thinks she could do it without catching flak? Really, if you are going to complain about a manipulative bad guy (or gal) with a perfectly good motive to not like an assigned minion and attempt to get rid of said minion, please do it in a better way than saying "Oh Sylora should have been nice to poor little defenseless Dahlia."

To clarify, I believe that what Sylora did to set Dahlia off was to send a spy in to Dahlia, with the hopes of accumulating info that she could use to ruin Dahlia's efforts. Dahlia put two and two together, realizing that Sylora's boytoy must be there at Sylora's behest.

We're never told that Dahlia ever knew that Sylora was complaining to the boss about her.

At any rate, since both of these women are villains, Sylora's actions are not so much horrible, as they are provocative. Sylora turned Dahlia into an enemy by preemptively undermining Dahlia's mission.

And please recall that I say this in response to your contention that Dahlia invited Sylora's wrath. I think it was the other way around.

quote:
Dor'crae's motives for switching sides are simple and transparent: he fears for his safety around Dahlia. She killed everyone else who ever slept with her, why wouldn't he throw in his lot with someone more stable?

I'd say probably for the same reasons that he didn't switch sides in Chapters 1, 2, 3, or 4--whatever those reasons happened to be. He remained Dahlia's lackey until Sylora lost her boytoy and then came a-calling. The difference in the situation was not that Dahlia had suddently become unstable--she had already been that way for a long time. The difference is that Sylora had apparently learned that Dahlia had had some success in finding the cause of the earthquakes in the Sword Coast North, and had devised a feasible plan for what to do with that knowledge, and Sylora was about to get shown up.

quote:
If you want to run with the theory that "poor little Dahlia" was brainwashed, fine, but it would be a mark of extremely poor character development, planning and editing.

Granted, this character's personal story arc is discombobulated in the extreme. I found myself scratching my head and saying "WTF" while conducting my first read-through, too.

My theory is just a painstaking attempt to offer a coherent explanation for what appears to be a very incoherent character arc on first reading.

quote:
She gets to the Thayans (because of course she doesn't want the "weak elves'" help) and they just reinforce what she already believes. Why should they bother to mess with something that's already in solidly in place?

The Thayans might've messed with her personal vendetta against Herzgo Alegni because they may have decided that they would like her to take out a bunch of lesser Netherese minions first, before trying to take on a Shadovar warlord and getting her uppity adolescent arse summarily whacked. They probably figured that they could redirect her thirst for personal vengeance (against Alegni) into a more generalized direction (against all the Netherese Shadovar operating in the Sword Coast North), with a little tweaking.

When military recruiters round up new recruits, they may have a bunch of guys on their hands with past nemeses and grudges. But the military seeks to take that pent-up anger and redirect it toward other enemies: enemies of the state. The military doesn't equip its personnel with badassimus weapons and tech so that they can go open cans of whoop-ass on their past schoolyard bullies, abusive boyfriends, rapists, drug-dealers, negligent landlords, overbearing parents, etc. The military will certainly try to tap into any existing animosity or other motivational drives of its troops, but it will tailor those troops' activities toward state-defined enemies.

Alternatively, various members of the Thayan court may have decided that Dahlia could be useful even more quickly by having her get rid of certain other members of said court. We are told that no less than 3 of her victims were people of high status and influence, including Lady Cahdamine. Given Sylora's use of her boytoy to spy on, befriend, and bed Dahlia, the notion of Thayan courtly intrigue is not inconceivable.

At any rate, it does not appear that the Thayans "just reinforced what she already believed". Neither Tam nor Sylora ever once mentions Alegni, or Dahlia's vendetta against him. They speak of all the Netherese in the region, in a general sense. While Dahlia's personal flashbacks highlight Alegni individually, she still repeatedly comes back to the notion that her mission will unleash a generalized catastrophe upon the whole region. And when Sylora later brings Dahlia back into the fold, she wins Dahlia over by promising the elf that she will get to kill lots of Netherese, as opposed to reminding her of Alegni, personally.

The text repeatedly assures us that, as far as Dahlia is concerned, her Tam brooch will provide great protection from the undead. And yet, over and over again throughout the story, the brooch does no such thing. A vampire is able to bite her on the neck, a lich's phylactery begins to pull her in, ghouls swarm her in the tunnels, and she feels such a sense of vulnerability around the Dread Ring that she makes sure to avoid it. At one point, she laments that undeath follows her everywhere she goes. Clearly, somebody got lied to.

And what is she doing working for an arch-lich for, in the first place, since she so clearly hates undeath? That makes no sense whatsoever unless my theory that some sort of brainwashing--whether magical or conventional, or both--is in play. Someone must've overwhelmed Dahlia's natural aversion to the unnatural with coercion and manipulation.

With that in mind, Dahlia's instant changes of heart right before the lever is pulled and when Sylora tracks her down again start to sound a little more plausible. This crazy little elf chick is being played like a puppet.

Notice that even though she is fully conscious when Sylora talks her into rejoining the fold, Dahlia later wonders how it happened. Intellectually she knows why, but it doesn't register fully with her. At the time it happened, she wondered if she was being enchanted by Sylora, but later she no longer ponders that notion, anymore. She's conscious that something weird happened, but she definitely cannot figure out what. That sounds like someone who is thoroughly under someone else's spell, to me.

quote:
Sorry, but I'll take the sorceress who has motives and does a decent job at being evil over the author's darling with the ill conceived redemption arc and tent pole.

You are certainly free to take whatever you wish.

I'm just pointing out what appear to be errors of fact in your reasoning regarding the text.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">

Edited by - BEAST on 23 Feb 2011 23:21:07
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