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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 22:47:25
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I considered just adding this to the bottom of the Evil Fey scroll, but I thought it may be worthy of its own. Following through on my musings about evil-minded fey, I began to wonder. Are there Undead Fey? Or does something inherent in their make-up prevent this. I can easily imagine a herd(?) of ghoulish centaurs or cloud/swarm of ghostly sprites running amok under the thrall of some evil Necromancer's dominion. I mean, they have flesh and blood and bodies that could be animated, but what about the more powerful, sentient undead? If I were a vampire, I imagine that sylvan blood would be quite tasty (Six-pack of Pixies anyone?).
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Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 06 Dec 2010 23:50:44
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 22:54:38
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One of my personal fave books is called Faerie Tale, by Raymond E Feist. The faeries in that book are similar to D&D planar entities like asimar and baatezu, in that they are nothing but spirit. So they can grow more or less powerful, but they never die. If you destroy them, they're toast -- you're destroying the spirit itself, so there's nothing left to make undead.
I've not seen anything in D&D to suggest that in-game fae are different. That's certainly how I'd handle them. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 22:56:02
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I don't think there's anything inherent about a fey's nature that makes it immune to undeath.
Fey do have the most tendency to remain good (or at least neutral) upon conversion to undeath. The baelnorn are elven liches who have chosen undeath in order to protect something more important than their own immortal lives. Jandar Sunstar (sun elf vampire, star of Christie Golden's novel Vampire of the Mists and a corresponding story in Realms of Valor) remained largely good throughout his existence, constantly struggling with his nature.
That said, fey that become undead AND evil would be truly scary.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 23:25:52
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There are elven vampires (in Ravenloft, anyhow; an interesting variant of "standard" vampires). And banshees, baelnorns, ghosts and other undead-elf creatures. Undead giants have always been popular. Elves can become shades. And drow liches exist too, I think. Player elves/half-elves/eladrin can be turned into wights, spectres, and shadows as easily as can any other player race. No doubt many zombies and skeletons once lived as fey, no doubt some small number of elven high mages become liches.
For the most part (with the possible exceptions of baelnorns, vampires, and liches) undead fey lose their intrinsic connection to the Feywild (twisted into a new connection to Shadow or Negative Energy or whatever) ... quickling zombies are slow and clumsy, centaur ghouls are carnivorous, leprechaun wraiths hate living creatures, etc. Swarms of pixie skeletons are easy to imagine; though creatures like satyrs, dryads, and korreds seem like strange sorts of undead.
Dragonborn, tieflings, and aasimar can also become undead, and again would likely lose their intrinsic connections to whatever "source" normally defines their species. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 00:58:31
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| Ah. Obivously, I was thinking of actual pixies and dryads and such as that, when I spoke of fae. In D&D terms, I don't consider any mortal races to be fae, unless they're oddballs like the half-fey described in Faeries. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 01:07:11
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| I don't consider Elves Fey either Wooly |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 01:57:50
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Well, if we're talking about hardcore fey, I envision them as being very heavily imbued with the power of vibrant life, but that power could be corrupted. Fey are, by definition, creatures of deep emotion, and when one surrenders to sorrow and vengeance, it seems totally reasonable a seed of darkness could get planted within him or her. The fey might not be undead at first, but its body might slowly rot from the inside until every ounce of LIFE is wrung out and it becomes what we'd consider an undead creature.
Also: it's not FR, but the 4e Tomb of Horrors super-adventure has an arc with fey creatures that have been corrupted with necrotic energies, courtesy of an uber-powerful lich. Pretty freaky stuff.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 02:09:43
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Like "standard" undeath isn't already freaky?
Somehow I think being made undead is not really something you're usually given much choice about (again: baelnorns, liches, and sometimes vampires being exceptions). So being twisted/corrupted at the whim of some malign powercaster (or just killed then animated by same) is probably the most common mechanism for achieving undeath.
Twisted fey are an interesting idea. Something like the "toxic nature spirits" from Shadowrun (which I've read about, not played), the parallel is easy to make since Feywild translates easily into an "organic magic system". |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 03:04:23
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I need to think on this - it is ringing a bell, but its a VERY old one, perhaps not even D&D. Hopefully it will come to me.
Nuckalavee (Mystara 2eMM, pg. 85) are a sort-of undead (corrupted) version of a centaur (not quite, but close-enough). The real folkore version is closer then the D&D/Mystara variant, and the author of the Saga of Pliocene Exile series did some interesting stuff with him (and other 'Unseelie' Fey). Very cool RW interpretations of the fey and their legends in that series - I highly recommend it (Unseelie Fey were 'corrupted' by radiation).
Topi from that same D&D source are also insanely cool, although not Fey, they are diminutive jungle zombies (and were used by Blizzard - the Warcraft people - in Diablo2, although called something different). It would be pretty easy to just call them zombie brownies.
I would say at least 90% of that MM would fit into Quale's (or anyone's, for that matter) Feywild. You can almost take Mystara whole-cloth and use it for Faerie (just adapt the various human kingdoms into fey ones) - it was a great setting. Hell, that's the setting that gave us Avariels!
Not to mention "Ed did the halflings".  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Dec 2010 03:11:14 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 03:15:49
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| I'd thought Avariels first appeared in Savage Coast / Red Steel? Didn't it predate Mystara? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 05:24:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I'd thought Avariels first appeared in Savage Coast / Red Steel? Didn't it predate Mystara?
Red Steel is to Mystara what Zakhara is to FR - it's technically a sub-setting of Mystara (as is The Hollow World setting).
The Savage Coast lies to the far west of the main campaign area.
Mystara was originally known as "The Known World", and was the setting for the basic D&D game (although I'm not sure if it's material pre-dated GH). The setting itself definitely pre-dated Red Steel and the published Realms.
On the other hand, Ed did some early work for TSR - both in the magazines and in the Mystara setting - so the Avariels might actually be his creation after-all. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 07:17:17
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Undead avariels, hmmm. There's just something wondrously delightful about flying undead, the very idea makes me giddy. <teeheehee>
Or even daemonfey/fer'ri avariels, er perhaps celestifey/faesimar I suppose (which seem more iconic, besides D&D likes to contrive counterbalanced diametrics). |
[/Ayrik] |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 10:08:24
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It's true that some fey are pure spirit like the creatures of the outer planes and immortal. There are no undead versions of outsiders except the yugoloth ghost. But the fey world is between the mortal and immortal realms, like in mythology many types of undead fey exist, particularly closer to the Prime and in Shadowfel. Even dwarves were considered spirits of the dead, tought clueless primes often confuse the types of spirits. Also baelnorns are not really undead.
Nuckelavee was recently statted in Pathfinder, I guess the dullahan fits as well. The Dearg-due and leanan sidhe (has stats in FR monstrous compendium) are interesting to use as fey vampires. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 10:34:04
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I agree Quale, yet I don't. Fey as spirits between/beyond our mortal and immortal realms is very interesting, and I like it.
But it's based on mythology more than canon.
Of course D&D canon is also based on mythology - but not so much, it's evolved into a dissimilar mythos of it's own.
I thought baelnorns are undead, very much like liches. They're definitely not alive. D&D's has nice little classification templates - mortal/immortal/(modron/celestial/fiend/chaos)/power, prime/planar/native/outsider, living/dead/unliving/undead/dormant/eternal, animal/vegatable/mineral, etc. In D&D terms every creature either fits into a nice category or it can (somehow) be twisted, warped, crossbred, and mutated into one. Is "Fey" just another kind of creature, like Shade or Baatezu, which can be reshaped into something else? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 11:15:47
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Baelnorn are indeed undead -- they're elven liches.
I'd classify fae as a kind of outsider, myself. Subject to corruption or destruction, certainly, but not undeath. And again, for me fae are the nature spirit type of critters. Elves may be related, but to me they are not fae.
That's my opinion, obviously.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 11:56:48
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| the 2nd ed Greyhawk MC has fey undead, you forget Banshees, Elven Liches, undead Eladrin from planescape bits..... |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 11:57:25
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| the dead lands of Darksun are full of undead pixies...... |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 12:03:26
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| What I find interesting is that humans have an idealized paragon - the classic shiny knight or paladin - who can fall from divine grace and be cursed/corrupted into a death knight. Why don't elves - who also have idealized paragons - have "death archers" or "death bladesingers"? No dwarven "death ragers" or "death smiths", no gnomish "death tinkers", not even "death kender"? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 07 Dec 2010 12:15:36 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 13:20:59
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undead eladrin from Planescape?
Aren't baelnorns arcane constructs that resemble liches, or something like the deathless? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 14:26:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
undead eladrin from Planescape?
Aren't baelnorns arcane constructs that resemble liches, or something like the deathless?
Baelnorn are "good elven undead" only with regard to the purpose of their creation.
As noted in Cormanthyr -- "Baelnorn, the willing undead elves, are the elven equivalent of liches, though they are hardly as disturbingly “wrong” as the corrupt undead and they do not project the fearsome aura of those wicked creatures."
...
They are the elven equivalent of a lich... but, at the same time, are also something more that is entirely, and specifically... elven. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 15:05:16
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Elves were always Fay - Tolkien anthropomorphicized them.
This is why I theorize D&D Elves are the result of FR Fey 'disconnecting' themselves from their original power-source (Earth-nodes), and fleeing to the Feywild after the Affair of the Black Diamond. The result was that all children born of the Fey (Le'Shay) after that were Eladrin.
Elven history is a bit complicated (made so much worse by the 4e lore). Strangely, the (Sylvan) Elves were also children of the Fey, but remained faithful to the Fey Pantheon (Yuir Totems). I theorized (some place) that 'El' means 'of the Fey' (as in 'offspring', but it could be applied to other things as well), and thought that 'adrin' meant 'faithful' (because they remained in Faerie after the sylvan Elves left). I now think I had that backwards - 'adrin' probably means something approximating "those that forge their own path" (not quite 'traitors' - that would be Dhaerow). 'Ves' (as in El'Ves) would mean something like 'True' (as in, "they remained true to their roots").
So Corellon and his followers left Titania's Court (for Tintageer) and became Adrin (or "El'Adrin", - 'Wayward children'). Those that remained in the Fey lands were El'Ves - 'Children who follow the True Path'. 'Ves' is like the Oriental Li, or Egyptian Maat - to be 'Ves' is to be 'Seelie'. They remained true to their Fey heritage, even after they were sent from Faerie by the Fey (Le'Shay), until the ElAdrin showed up on Toril and began enforcing their own religious doctrines on them.
quote:
Originally posted by Snowblood
the 2nd ed Greyhawk MC has fey undead, you forget Banshees, Elven Liches, undead Eladrin from planescape bits.....
I just thought of Banshees myself, but you beat me to it.
Banshee = 'Bane-Shee', or literally, "evil Fairy"
Immortal Fay that are native to the Feywild would be Outsiders, but Prime Fey are mortal, and therefor susceptible to Undeath.
However, even gods apparently (Orcus, Velsharoon, Vecna, Mellifleur) can be Undead (which makes little sense). In the case of those last three there is some logic to it (they appear as they did before they ascended), but Orcus became Undead and is a Demon Lord (giving him Exarch/demi-power status).
Ergo, under certain rare circumstances, creatures who are not normally affected by certain templates (Undeath, Lycanthropy, etc), CAN be affected by them. I would assume some sort of Wild-magic surge is responsible (Chaos, Spellplague, Faersrezz, Psuedo-natural energies, whatever); many undead appear to have been created as some sort of 'magical backlash' from experimentation or spell-battle.
As for the corporeal Undead, that shouldn't really apply to creature-type; anything that had a physical body (that remains on the Prime Material after death) should be able to be raised by necromantic magic. Its the Incorporeal and/or intelligent Undead that require those 'special circumstances' to exist.
Interestingly, in the Book of Secrets (AEG press), there is a ritual wherein a being can sever its ties to its home plane (including the prime material). I suppose something like that may be responsible for some Outsider undead (indirectly, not as a direct result of said ritual). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Dec 2010 15:28:09 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 15:54:14
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Orcus is not undead, Tenebrous was a sort of shadow, but Tenebrous wasn't a god
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
They are the elven equivalent of a lich... but, at the same time, are also something more that is entirely, and specifically... elven.
ok, do they have negative energy sustaining them? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 16:01:30
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I would drop-back to 2e lore for that one - Undead created through Priestly magic* (and Baelnorn are consecrated by the Seldarine) use Positive energy to sustain them (like a mummy).
I know that was changed in 3e - Positive-energy undead became unwieldy mechanically. I believe this may be why the 'Undying' classification was created (they are NOT 'undead' in the normal sense). Baelnorn should have been Undying in the 3e ruleset (which they probably didn't do because they didn't want to buy another box of kleenex for the grognard/lore-junky crowd).
*Edit:
This just reminded me of a clarification I wanted to make in my last post in another thread : When I say 'priestly magic', I mean GOOD priestly magic. Evil Priests probably draw their power from the 'dark side' (Umbral, Maleficium, whatever), which is why they suck at Healing (in WoW, a Priest that choose the 'dark path' got almost no healing - it was VERY hard to find anyone with a high-level healer-priest).
Edit2:
We can use non-FR rules to back this hypothesis up some-what. In SJ (and I think maybe in PS and/or RL - not sure), a priest could cast up to 3rd level spells without contact with his god. The premise there is that low-level spells like that are actually channeled from within, drawing on the priests own store of Divine (Radiant) Energy. One of the best-kept secrets of 'The Gods' is that you really don't need them - the power lies inside all of us. Only when you get into the more powerful magics do you need 'divine help'. This is why a priest following the 'dark path' can still cast some healing magic. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Dec 2010 16:15:20 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 17:30:14
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| MT- you are slightly off on your translation of the banshee. It actually means "woman of the sihde(mound)" a "fairy woman", not neccessarily evil. They are connected in myth to "Tir 'Na Mban" or the "land of women" of celtic mythology, as guardians and teachers, who later evolved into the keening spirits of Irish folklore. Often seen washing burial shrouds by rivers, and it was said that if they saw you, then you would soon die. Also that they appeared before or during a death in a family, which might be where the idea of them being evil came from, since most people associate death with evil due to Judeo-Christian influences. So their association with death naturally evolved into an undead fey type in D&D lore. And being undead, they have somehow become equated with "evil" fey as a result, but this was not always the case. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 18:20:57
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Yes, I too have The Leprechaun's Kingdom.
That was the 'fast & dirty' answer.
I was tasked to create the Faery supplement for Chivalry & Sorcery for FGU, which is one of the most realistic (and almost unplayabley complicated) rules systems out there. I spent a year and half heavily researching fey, to get them 'perfect' for the game-system, during which time the company moved to the west Coast and my efforts never saw fruition.
And so ended my dreams of becoming a game designer, at the tender age of 16.
I did get to playtest many of their games though, and quite a few of my suggestions made it into various supplements - my one claim to fame.
The Baobhan Sith (pronounced Bavaan Shee) is a Celtic vampiric fey, which dances with its victims and absorbs their blood through that contact (through the skin). Celts campaign Sourcebook, pg. 42
Note that creature is fey, but NOT undead (AFAIK - I've never meat one). EDIT: just checked Folklore sources (rather then D&D, which also misspelled it), and it is indeed a type of undead. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Dec 2010 18:41:15 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 18:39:03
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Not actually familiar with that book, MT. I was speaking from my (ahem) deep delving into fey lore and Celtic myth stemming from a long practice as a Wiccan. Lots of good esoteric books deal heavily with the mythological aspects (gods, fairy lore, ancient rites and ideologies) which comes in handy at the game table too. Celtic Magic by DJ Conway and the Encyclopedia of Fairies are two of my faves for this. And I just remembered a great article in Dragon- can't remember the issue # ATM- that had a stat write-up Nuckalavee and several other RL mythological beasties, most rather nasty.
You are lucky to have gotten that far, MT. I suck at design, but I love creating lore. That's why I usually borrow any stats I can use, and do all the lore myself when working on my HB world. It's worked quite well so far. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 18:47:50
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The owner of the company was a good friend of mine - we had a terrific group of players and an Ed-caliber GM who was truly amazing.
I was indeed fortunate.
I only thought you were quoting that particular source because I was re-reading it the other night, and what you typed there looked like the 'Cliff's Notes' version of precisely what that source says.
--- sorry.
Have you read Saga of the pliocene Exile? I have a feeling you would immensely enjoy it. Faery-lore with a bit of a SciFi twist (and if you believe in fairies, as you do, it gives some nice plausibility to their authenticity). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 19:06:20
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| No, I haven't read that. I may have to add it to my already never-ending list of reading "to-do"s. It's funny you said that, cause most of what I wrote earlier came from SEVERAL of my sources, and was just the basic gist of what they all said. I suspect a lot of them use the same sources for the research, so it's not surprising, really. There's not a whole lot of reliable fairy lore books out there, from what I've seen. Have you ever read the Pressed Fairy Book? That one is friggin hilarious- has lots of funny illustrations and "notes" about the fairies in it. I have a calender based on it somewhere, too, that I kept for the pics and some of the "fairy holidays" in the dates. Like the "nipple-pinching festival". Somehow, that has a very fey ring to it, lol!! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 00:21:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I would drop-back to 2e lore for that one - Undead created through Priestly magic* (and Baelnorn are consecrated by the Seldarine) use Positive energy to sustain them (like a mummy).
I know that was changed in 3e - Positive-energy undead became unwieldy mechanically. I believe this may be why the 'Undying' classification was created (they are NOT 'undead' in the normal sense). Baelnorn should have been Undying in the 3e ruleset (which they probably didn't do because they didn't want to buy another box of kleenex for the grognard/lore-junky crowd).
*Edit:
This just reminded me of a clarification I wanted to make in my last post in another thread : When I say 'priestly magic', I mean GOOD priestly magic. Evil Priests probably draw their power from the 'dark side' (Umbral, Maleficium, whatever), which is why they suck at Healing (in WoW, a Priest that choose the 'dark path' got almost no healing - it was VERY hard to find anyone with a high-level healer-priest).
Edit2:
We can use non-FR rules to back this hypothesis up some-what. In SJ (and I think maybe in PS and/or RL - not sure), a priest could cast up to 3rd level spells without contact with his god. The premise there is that low-level spells like that are actually channeled from within, drawing on the priests own store of Divine (Radiant) Energy. One of the best-kept secrets of 'The Gods' is that you really don't need them - the power lies inside all of us. Only when you get into the more powerful magics do you need 'divine help'. This is why a priest following the 'dark path' can still cast some healing magic.
Just to deviate, slightly, from what Markus said above... I've often tinkered with alternate possibilities.
It concerns the fact that Baelnorns shouldn't be considered as the elven equivalent of a lich only. They are something more, something uniquely elven, as the text from Cormanthyr indicates.
Perhaps the concept of a lich, as an undead creature which draws its power from the Negative Energy Plane, may form the basis upon which the baelnorn is built. But that's where the similarities end. Their being "sustained by magic", as noted in Cormanthyr, suggests that something beyond the mere scope of Negative Energy is responsible for sustaining the baelnorn. However, at the same time, we know baelnorn do suffer from degeneration, like most undead. So that may be as far as their undead state would seem to go -- a consequence, perhaps, of their connection to the Negative Energy Plane. Beyond that, and with them being "sustained by magic", we see the elements of their existence which differentiate the baelnorn, thus making it an exclusively elven form of undead, when compared to the standard lich. And it is this unique status that still results in them being granted "life of a sort beyond nature" that isn't specifically undead in the style of a standard lich. |
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Undead Fey
