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Tazak Nymar
Acolyte
USA
10 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Jun 2010 : 19:35:04
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In a game set before the Spellplague. The group I'm currently mastering for made their way to Shadowdale.
They had earned Zhentarim animosity and an agent was ordered to kill them.
The agent in question was a mage and after failing to destroy the party with an ambush with a group of Ogres decided to enlist the help of nearby operatives that included another mage, two warriors and an assassin posing as a traveling show.
After a close call and after having captured most of the Zhentarim they managed find out that the assassin was in fact the troupe dancer from the show.
Tired of match wits with the Zhentarim the group took the assassin's three year old son as hostage and threatened to kill the toddler publicly if she didn't give up, going as far cutting the infant, though without maiming him.
After the assassin gave up and was questioned under a "Detect Lie" spell she along with one of the warriors was send to prison (The others were killed by the PC's).
Little time has passed (less than twenty minutes in-game).
A couple of questions do come to mind and I would greatly appreciate any input you can give me.
Would Storm Silverhand be impressed positively or negatively with the PC's ? (I had Storm in mind as a contact for them but it isn't mandatory and I prefer to play her accurately)
What would the sentence be in Shadowdale for attempted murder and Zhentarim membership ? Death by hanging seemed appropriate at first but no one PC was killed on the other hand.
What would normally happen to the toddler ?
Would the populace or the authorities of Shadowdale have any strong opinion on this matter, negative or positive ?
The party has a dual class Priest of Azuth/Paladin subordinate to a higher level Priest of Azuth. Would the Paladin lose abilities for helping take the child hostage even if he did it under protest and specifically at the orders of his superior ?
Would Elminster or Lhaeo have any particular opinion on this matter if they hear of it ?
Thankful for any advice you can provide.
Tazak
P.S.
In case it is of use he party is made of:
LN Priest of Azuth
LN Priest of Azuth (yes two of them)
LG Priest of Azuth/Paladin
N Wizard
N Bard
LN Fighter
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2010 : 19:51:32
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I'd say that *everyone* would be aghast at harming (even in a minor fashion) a toddler. 'You got the Zhents; fine, fine, but the reason we hate the Zhents is because they do things like harming children'. The Paladin most definitely loses all Paladin powers and (if I were the DM) any chance of regaining them. The clerics are warned by 'higher ups' in the order that this sort of thing isn't tolerated. As for Storm: I'm guessing that not only is she not going to have anything to do with helping the PC's, she might well take advantage of the fact that they hate Zhents to send them to their deaths attacking a much larger force of Zhentarim, hoping that they take some of the Zhents with them.
Again, were it me, I'd really rake the party over the coals for this one, and teach them that hurting children for their own gain is straight evil and will cause all hands to be turned against you. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2010 : 20:55:51
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Agreed. Paladin should lose his powers, even if he did it at protest and with orders, even with those there are still basic RIGHT and WRONG, and it's WRONG to take a baby for all purposes hostage. They knew who it was, they could have taken it down eventally. Why bring a child into the mix.
Storm: Well, yeah. She'd like have nothing to do with them. They are too risky, because if they take children hostage again, they'll likely do it again and again, and it WOULD be linked back to her. She's a savior, and if people find out that she hires and or helps child takers, then yeah. (And I'm willing to bet that it wouldn't be linked with the child being the kid of an assassin who repeatedly tried to kill the adventurers. (They are not heros), just that these guys kidnap a kid and slashed at him man! |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2010 : 21:40:16
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1) Lawful party members broke the LAW. They should expect punishment for their actions regarding the toddler & such.
2) Lawful Neutral does NOT mean they can commit EVIL acts (like torturing a toddler to get an assassin to stop). It Means they usually follow the strictest interpretation of the law without regard to the underlying reasons for breaking the law. I'd serious suggest that all party members take a dangerous step closer to Evil with those actions since the entire act of torturing the toddler is, by my definition a Lawful Evil act (if not Chaotic Evil).
3) Yes, the paladin should lose all abilities until he can atone for his actions.
Now, in regards to other things: My reaction is that Storm with be very disappointed in the PCs. Yes, they captured some Zhents, but at what cost?
I don't know if Dalesfolk would execute Zhents unless they did something horrendous like trying to poison the water supply. Most likely, they would be dumped outside of the Dalesland and their faces known by all as Zhentarim. Maybe *MAYBE* a branding so they are known as Zhentarim agents.
While the toddler's mother is in prison, (s)he would probably be cared for by either the clerics or a foster family. Also, this toddler would DEFINITELY have Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, leading to all kinds of problems growing up. Like becoming an assassin like his mother so he can kill the adventurers that tortured him.
The populace would be thankful that Zhents were captured, but VERY distrustful of anyone that would harm a child to do so. Don't expect any parades, but rather quick service to hurry the adventures OUT of Shadowdale as quickly as possible.
Elminster and Lhaeo would probably react much the same as everyone else. If they went seeking El's help in the future, expect him to a) refuse to help 'child-torturers' or b) a VERY long, VERY detailed lecture on how exactly one goes about fighting evil without becoming evil in the process. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 07:36:44
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This is a though one. It depends on how "medieval" your campaign is in my opinion. I would probably run it somewhat like Ashe in the Realms, as this is something I do to escape from real life, not an attempt to get into a harsh, brutal fantasy. The whole thing is more or less the old problem of "cleaning out" the humanoids lair. As a DM I don't have the stomach for it quite frankly, but that's just me.
But in a more brutal campaign I can see a chaotic good character deciding to take a character hostage to stop a greater evil, but the cutting part is borderline. One step further and it would be an alignment shift towards evil in my opinion. And even a CG character is slipping a bit here. Storms reaction would probably be negative as her personality would object quite strongly to such methods. She would probably do her best for the child and have a long talk with the characters to try to judge how dangerous they really are and if the situation was desperate enough to explain their actions.
The paladin is in serious trouble and will need serious atonement.
Elminster is old and has been to much, most likely he has actions on his continence that outweighs this one, but the party's actions wouldn't be in their favour unless they showed remorse over the actions, even if they still thought it was necessary.
If this was a one time thing I think non-lawful characters could get away with it in a harsh campaign, but repeated use of such tactics would lead them towards evil. In a more idealistic or romantic campaign they are in serious trouble.
As for Shadowdale. I can easily see them having a low threshold for executing proved Zenthis agents. Especially in a "medieval" campaign. If the agent was a good talker or there were some elements in the case that would excuse or speak in the agents favour he/she might get of. |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 10:47:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Tazak Nymar
<snip>
Tired of match wits with the Zhentarim the group took the assassin's three year old son as hostage and threatened to kill the toddler publicly if she didn't give up, going as far cutting the infant, though without maiming him.
<snip>
In case it is of use he party is made of:
LN Priest of Azuth
LN Priest of Azuth (yes two of them)
LG Priest of Azuth/Paladin
N Wizard
N Bard
LN Fighter
I'm shocked. Lawful characters did that? Somebody doesn't understand the concept of 'lawful'...
Now for the questions:
1. Storm would be really angry (remember how she couldn't have her own children?) I'd guess she'd feel like they hurt her own kid...
2. You got the sentence right...
3. ???
4. Negative reactions - ditto
5. Paladin definitely loses his abilities. Hurting a kid to make his mother surrender is EVIL
6. Don't know about Lhaeo, but El would not be impressed... |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 11:08:15
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Don't forget that the Zenths are Lawful themselves.
One question; where were the characters from? The LN Characters reactions would be heavily influenced by the codes of that given region. Thayvan, Moonsea and Dragon Reach laws might give guards and soldiers pretty free reigns in upholding the laws. But even then it is thin, especially since the deed was done to save their own skin, not someone else's.. |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 16:54:22
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Yeah, the PC's don't have *any* wiggle room here, especially the (ex) Paladin. The harming of a sentient, non-inherently evil child *purely for personal gain* is unquestionably evil. Not 'pretty bad' or even 'mostly bad', but E-vil.
Let me ask a question: Are your players pretty new to playing? Do you (or their regular DM) often encourage 'gritty' role-play? Or are they all just trying to be Jack Baur? B/c if it's the first two, you may want to give them the option of a 'do-over'. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 23:28:06
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| Well Tazak, give us a response XD tell us what your going to do, or will not do, or what the party say to defend their acts as the holiest shit ever that Celestia should bow to their wisdom of torturing kids. (Come on, what DM doesn't have a player like that?) |
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Auzoros
Seeker
Australia
97 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2010 : 03:12:44
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| Storm has a history of flying off into a murderous rage when she percieves an attrocity. The PC's may have found themselves in big doo-doo with Storm. |
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Tazak Nymar
Acolyte
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2010 : 17:34:48
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Most of the party is Sembian with the exception of the wizard who is Thayvian and the Fighter who is Chultan.
After talking to all the players the prevalent attitude seems to be that they are entitled to the occasional evil act so long as they don't make a habit of it, curiously enough it is the Thayvian wizardress who acts more like a hero, going as far as denouncing the Red Wizards and listening to the Azuthians under protest like the paladin. Not because she believes in it, though, but because she believes in strong PR as a necessity for herself.
The villains will likely walk out alive out of this as the Shadowdale authorities I feel would be leery of the circumstances in which the characters captured the assassins, this is also compounded by the fact that the Zhents left, had no intention of attacking Shadowdale or even the PC's originally and did the latter under orders while never threatening Dalesfolk. Unless the Dales are poorer than I thought. I believe they have enough resources to keep them in jail for months if not years.
The kid might find a home with the Chauntean clerics. The wizardress actually offered to pay for the child's upkeep which I figure would gain her points, that she talked about this in private with the Chaunteans might mean the party earns to global brownie points for this.
Storm I figure is a lost contact for the party, namely because the party is afraid of the assassin with the exception of the Chultan thus they plan to pressure for the Shadowdale authorities to to execute the two Zhentarim they have in custody. with the exception of the Paladin who believes not doing so is "mandatorily merciful", The chultan, who doesn't care and the thayvian who figures it would look bad on her part. Which I figure won't impress Storm very much. Who I figure has classified them as scum at this point.
In an overall sense I think the populace of the dale would treat them like of they were all half-orcs. Not necessarily as would be traitors but as potential villians until they prove themselves more.
On the upside the group doesn't think they entitled to parades or anything like that so there is some minor hope.
The Paladin will lose his abilities until he atones. But will either have to find a LG priest of Azuth to help him or will have to adventure for some time the hard way until has at least made up for his shortcomings. The higher ranked Azuthian will receive a vision warning him about obstructing the spiritual growth of those beneath him.
This is pretty much what has happened/comes to mind. How would you all handle it though ? Your input was invaluable for reaching a conclusion. I wish to hear more if you are inclined to say more. |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2010 : 18:15:52
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So far, the paladin should lose his powers far longer. He is after all, willingly being with a group of people who flat out said that they are entitled to do some evil acts.
I'm sure the child will hate the group. Espeaclly if he finds out that they are paying for his care.
"So they kidnapped me, tried to hurt me, threw me into an adoption home and paying for it, and crying to have my mother killed....."
What child wouldn't snap after that?
The party really didn't do anything worthy of being anything more then child kidnapping scum. that should spread pretty fast to other places. People see the adventurers coming and lock their kids inside to be safe from the child nappers.
People might be ether more aggressive towards them, or alot more polite. The first being someone trying to protect their own kids from the kidnappers, and the other being very nice and polite in hopes they don't kidnap their kids. |
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