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Zek
Acolyte
5 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Apr 2010 : 19:52:02
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Now I know that in 4e drow are all evil no more is there the mixed grouping(or so I heard).
Now by Canon of 3.5 dnd how are drow supposed to be played. As this has been a question that I think has sparked probably more debate than anything else. After all so many apparently want to play a Drizzt style character, or a "goody" two shoe drow.
I'm only asking this because I know drow have a level of paranoia as they're always anticipating betrayal and someone trying to kill them. And then there are the followers of Eilistraee whom are trying in a sense "redeem" themselves.
So my question is what is the Official canon way in how to play drow. Just so I can understand the concept and end at least some arguments.
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www.zekafae.webs.com
site for my drow.. always a work in progress and forever tweaking the "stat" sheet.. I'm too anal... really. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2010 : 20:08:05
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| Realms drow are as depicted in sources such as FOR2 The Drow of the Underdark, which lays out the baseline society and mindset, and Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark, which shows several differing drow cities. Game editions have nothing to do with it. Other than that, can you narrow down your question so it's easier to answer? |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2010 : 20:43:01
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| Base line for D&D is alignment was most common, though it does appear 4th Edition made extremely rare to be other then evil. There always were and still are exceptions to most common. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2010 : 20:50:17
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| Non-evil drow have always been existent but extremely rare across the worlds, from D3 Vault of the Drow and Leda in Gary Gygax's novels, through Ed's Realms, to various later non-Realms sources in various inflections of D&D. |
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Zek
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2010 : 20:54:00
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In some ways it is somewhat hard for me to explain but I'll try to break it down a bit more. I lack the books and have yet to see a fully comprehensive overview of Drow that is what they call Canon. I think that what I'm looking for overall is the baseline then a split up of the different "types" of drow. As I have one and though one class he has is ranger. he's far from the "drizzt" style. The only other bit of information that I have been trying to find, is how would a Drow exceed twice the eldest known drow in terms of age? As in living longer than I think it was Matron Baenre whom is 2300-2600 years old?
In terms of Menzoberranzan and the followers of Lolth. I understand them to be ruthless, cunning and perhaps highly conniving where deceit, treachery and other very low handed tactics are used just so the houses can get ahead of another. Females rule surpreme and only the first born males and wizards are seen in any level of "favorable" light.
Other cities I have no idea about.. but also the drow whom follow the different deities in the Drow Pantheon. I know Eilistraee followers are by far the most "peaceful" yet will have no qualms on fighting/killing evil drow.
Edit: I know that there's always exceptions to the rule. I've just been trying to hunt down the "official word" on Canon for Drow. As I'm fairly tired of someone's argument at my character not being "canon".
Now Personally.. I see it like this.. A drow can live on the surface, be in the neutral realm, reach epic levels(I'm looking around.. 70ish for mine perhaps more with his age) live to be for example 5k years old( a massive stretch but I see it possible as through means of a Wizard, reaching epic levels, making yourself have eternal life, a deity's blessings ect ect) And still be in canon in terms of dnd rules and the overall picture of Drow society. |
www.zekafae.webs.com
site for my drow.. always a work in progress and forever tweaking the "stat" sheet.. I'm too anal... really. |
Edited by - Zek on 02 Apr 2010 20:58:19 |
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Laerrigan
Learned Scribe
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2010 : 22:58:46
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Drow of the Underdark was already given as the best and most detailed reference for FR canon, and people really can't quote chunks of it here due to copyright. Menzoberranzan seems to be a pretty good general example of drow society. If you aren't dead-set against D&D canon from non-FR settings, look into the city of Erelhei-Cinlu, which is very well fleshed-out in the "Living Greyhawk" section of Dragon Magazine 298 (available in PDF for under $5 at Paizo, and that's even a direct link to the page for that product). It's a more "cosmopolitan" sort of drow city, in which non-drow live and work and there is commerce with the surface world, but it's still very much an evil drow society overall, with marvelous detail given including maps, history, NPCs, and blurbs about the ruling Houses. We imported it into the Realms IMC, and I felt it was more than worth the cheap price (there are some other drow goodies in that issue, too).
Drow are just as capable of any alignment as is any other creature, especially creatures of the Material Plane---for canon, look to the examples already listed in posts above. It's their society/upbringing/religion that makes 99.9% of them evil and paranoid, and elves in general (dark or white) tend toward chaos (nature or nurture? who knows) but aren't absolutely bound to it.
If your drow didn't grow up in a way that instilled and encouraged an evil outlook, then he has no more reason to be evil or paranoid than any non-drow character has. If he did grow up in drow society or some other evil-instilling situation, he just needs a reason for not turning out that way, or for changing his outlook later in life. In any case, though, it can be fun to throw in "inherited" elements  ---maybe a non-evil drow PC who didn't grow up among drow inherited a chemical imbalance in his brain from a long line of forebears whose environment affected their brain chemistry, and he has paranoid tendencies "because he's a drow"  .
Anyway, people who really pound CANON in gaming with friends can get annoying, IMO. Especially since the one you're talking about apparently isn't bringing out his/her own comprehensive canon sources to show you and prove it, or you wouldn't be asking what you are here. So long as there are cohesive reasons why your PC is the way he is, taking into account his background and grounding it in what is given in canon, go for it, I figure. Especially when you're thankfully not trying to play what's become a stereotype (like the Drizzt clones you mentioned). |
"Your 'reality,' sir, is lies and balderdash, and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever." (Baron Munchausen)
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was not made for this world." (C.S. Lewis, "Surprised by Joy") |
Edited by - Laerrigan on 02 Apr 2010 23:12:45 |
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2010 : 23:00:21
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I don't know who told you that non-evil drow have been struck from the register in 4e, but I think they've been fibbing. True, Eilistraee got picked off at some point in the War of the Spider Queen (I could be wrong there), but that's easily ignored or retcon'd. Otherwise I've not seen anything to suggest that there are any more or less frequent deviations from the wicked norm in 4e.
Anyway, largely irrelevant to your enquiry, just a friendly public service announcement from the resident 4e enthusiast. :D |
Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!
ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!
Vast Realmslore Archive: Get in here and download everything! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl
2e Realms book PDFs; grab em! - http://poleandrope.blogspot.com/2010/07/working-around-purge.html |
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Zek
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2010 : 01:39:49
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That I think is what I was getting at, Eilistraee was kinda not there and yet if I remember in 3.5 she warred against them and became the masked lady and drow became surface dark elves once again.
Well the basic background of my drow is that he was the first born of a new and frighteningly ambitious House that's worked to gain power quickly. Throughout the first say 50 years of his life, he was introduced to the arts of the assassination(assassin from his father) and magic from his mother(wizard) Basically the rogue/assassin/wizard. when he was 100 he left for the surface and met up a human dragon hunter with wood elf compatriot and over the years he learned common and how to hunt and slay dragons(ranger side). He's not the "good" elf by any means nor is he neutral or evil. Chaotic Neutral I think is the closest for him. Because he can be mild and civil or incredibly merciless and unforgiving(Cruel drow part so to speak). I think the next time I hear about canon and they cannot show hard proof I'll call them out on it. I cannot stand the "well that not canon" and then they go all troll/idiot on you and cannot back it up. Anyways thank you guys for helping. I'll be investing in some dnd books in the near future. |
www.zekafae.webs.com
site for my drow.. always a work in progress and forever tweaking the "stat" sheet.. I'm too anal... really. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2010 : 06:36:48
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Ah, maybe I can help answer this one. (I'm very anal about drow and all things related to them, lol!) Yes, "Drow of the Underdark" is one of the better "canon" sources to check out, as is the Dragon article Laerrigan mentioned. (Actually, that entire issue was great for drow players!) I would also suggest the FR 3.5 book "Underdark", the D20 books "Plot and Poison" from Green Ronin, or the Mongoose Races of Renown book on them. However, those last two books use a slightly different pantheon for them, so keep that in mind if you use them. Personally, I agree with Laerrigan up there. Unless it's a Drizzt clone, (*sigh*, why did there have to be so darn many of those?) then I'd stick with the basic description, or give a reason for straying from it. If nothing else, you could just go with the description from the Monster Manual as a base.
On a side-note, yes, Eilistraee was "killed" at the end of the Lady Penitant trilogy, which follows the War of the Spider Queen series. And do not even get me started on how very wrong that was. *shakes head sadly* Only the drow who had followed her or were not evil became surface dark elves again, complete with a change back to their "original" appearance. All others- i.e., those who followed Lolth and/or were evil, remained "true" drow. Your PC sounds pretty cool- maybe he could pop over to the inn and pal around with my drow bard, lol! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Laerrigan
Learned Scribe
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2010 : 06:50:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Your PC sounds pretty cool- maybe he could pop over to the inn and pal around with my drow bard, lol!
And I should bring in the drow I've toyed with the notion of playing here at least briefly....We could all sit around and complain about drow society from totally different angles! Until some one of us decided to kill another for perfectly legitimate-to-him reasons and got drow banned from CK.  These surface folk are so prudish.... |
"Your 'reality,' sir, is lies and balderdash, and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever." (Baron Munchausen)
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was not made for this world." (C.S. Lewis, "Surprised by Joy") |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2010 : 10:13:31
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As someone, who loves drow as one of the most unique race of D&D, I believe I should butt-in.
The truth about alignment in my opinion is genetic and upbringing. The Drizzt was born from non-evil drow father, who raised him most part of his young days. The result is super goody warrior outcast. Also genetics can give explosions and make individuals with inverted alignment. Also as one possible ideas, your character could be raised by surface race. My character half-drow, for example, was dropped in human family. Before his foster parents passed away, they told him of the clues, the sigil of the drow house and the longsword with sealed sheath, that were left with the infant. For now, the young man seeks information about his true parents, because he believes, that they couldn't go back to the Underdark due to their circumstances. He was told of one organization, that collects Lore and shares it, fights evil and keeps balance. The Harpers can give the information about his clues, or so said the strange sage of the village...
Ooops! Sorry, I went off topic. Well, the main idea, is that there is nothing impossible. The evil can become good, chaotic can turn lawful. Just keep the details to the guide. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2010 : 19:49:47
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Very good point, Sill! Mine was actually a little like a cross of the two- raised partly by a Moon-elven slave in his family's home, and was also of differing alignment to begin with due to circumstances of birth and heritage (A formerly Moon-elf father who was "cursed" to become a drow- though he was evil, the son took after his Moon-elven blood in terms of alignment.)
VERY funny, Laerr.... As long as nobody starts waving weapons in MY direction!! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Laerrigan
Learned Scribe
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2010 : 20:52:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
VERY funny, Laerr.... As long as nobody starts waving weapons in MY direction!!
Die, faithless! Oh, but first, could you give your honest assessment of XYZ, in your experience, about these surface-dwellers? I'm sure we could reach a compromise on the "Die" part, if your perspective is valuable enough...
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"Your 'reality,' sir, is lies and balderdash, and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever." (Baron Munchausen)
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was not made for this world." (C.S. Lewis, "Surprised by Joy") |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Zek
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2010 : 01:43:51
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| Thank you, now I can finally show this small bit of information and in my new sig i have a link to my drow's background. Played him for.. god.. a long time. And don't mind the "stat" sheet it was just the "quick" javascript printout I got ahold of. I'm forever trying to revise and get my hands (again) on 3.5 materials. And of course Salvatore's series about drow. Perhaps I'll drag Zek in. He needs something to do.. old age(ok ancient) and boredom do not mix well especially for drow. |
www.zekafae.webs.com
site for my drow.. always a work in progress and forever tweaking the "stat" sheet.. I'm too anal... really. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2010 : 04:46:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Cleric Generic
I don't know who told you that non-evil drow have been struck from the register in 4e, but I think they've been fibbing. True, Eilistraee got picked off at some point in the War of the Spider Queen (I could be wrong there), but that's easily ignored or retcon'd. Otherwise I've not seen anything to suggest that there are any more or less frequent deviations from the wicked norm in 4e.
Anyway, largely irrelevant to your enquiry, just a friendly public service announcement from the resident 4e enthusiast. :D
Now I have been fairly active at "The Boards that should not be mentioned" during the discussion of the transition. Like Alystra, I did not like what I read about the new Drow after 100 years. During the discussion about the improvement brought to FR by 4th edition there clearly was the tone that the only Drow deities were Evil ones. Now we of course have one famous Drow still alive after the 100 years, but he worshiped what was normally considered a human deity (If that one survived).
As far as good Drow of 100 years ago, only worshipers of Eilistraee were turned into Brown elves which of course allowed the ranger to remain a Drow. So far I have not seen any reference to Brown elves after the 100 year time span (perhaps the spell plague killed them all - even if not they need a new deity).
So the tome of conversation clearly indicated a return to Drow almost exclusively being Evil with rare exceptions. If of course you can point to a reference that something like 20 to 25 percent of 4th Edition Drow are Good aligned, I clearly would like to see ot.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2010 : 15:24:17
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Mielikki survives in 4e iirc.
But anyway, the "conversion" of good aligned drow into dark elves was... *searches for something diplomatic to say*... rather heavy handed and seems to have overlooked a few things here and there. I say look at the material yourself and exploit the loopholes (there's a plethora to choose from) all you like. |
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Zek
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 02:43:13
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| I exploit loopholes all over the place, it's legal and lets face it. As far as I am concerned, pretty much anything/everything can happen in dnd. There is nothing that cannot be explained in dnd as a whole. And I've found loopholes with games all over the place especially lore. |
www.zekafae.webs.com
site for my drow.. always a work in progress and forever tweaking the "stat" sheet.. I'm too anal... really. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 03:51:51
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Um, Kentinal- As of last I heard, the (formerly) Eilistraeean drow and those not tainted by demonic blood (as mentioned in The Lady Penitant series) all became what in 4th ed are called "redeemed" drow, which are apparently in one of the newer FR sourcebooks. Interestingly, most of the ones who were "transformed" back to dark elves were nearly all descendants of Miyeritar survivors, such as House Melarn. (Hallistra Melarn was the one who was transformed into Lolth's agent to kill Eilistraee in those books, while her brother led the High Magic ritual that allowed the Eilistreean drow to return to their dark elf roots.) Incidentally, all those "former" drow seem to have been taken in by Corellon after Eilistraee's "death". (I for one, refuse to believe that simply beheading a mortal follower who was merely possessed by the goddess could actually result in killing the goddess herself, as that would have simply made her an avatar... One of those loopholes you might want to exploit, Zek!)
Also on a related note, those who changed back were able to access the Lore Gems of their Houses which had been stored in a ruin of ancient Miyeritar. This leads to an interesting question- since Melarn was from Ched Nasad, which was originally colonized by drow from Menzoberenzan, does that mean that there are Miyeritaran descendants in Menzo? If so, how many Houses there would have been transformed? (One might even speculate that Do'Urden and perhaps even Baenre might have had some of those bloodlines- which would explain Drizzt and Liriel! An intriguing plot twist....)
Anyway, just a few things o think about.... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 04:36:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Um, Kentinal- As of last I heard, the (formerly) Eilistraeean drow and those not tainted by demonic blood (as mentioned in The Lady Penitant series) all became what in 4th ed are called "redeemed" drow, which are apparently in one of the newer FR sourcebooks. Interestingly, most of the ones who were "transformed" back to dark elves were nearly all descendants of Miyeritar survivors, such as House Melarn. (Hallistra Melarn was the one who was transformed into Lolth's agent to kill Eilistraee in those books, while her brother led the High Magic ritual that allowed the Eilistreean drow to return to their dark elf roots.) Incidentally, all those "former" drow seem to have been taken in by Corellon after Eilistraee's "death". (I for one, refuse to believe that simply beheading a mortal follower who was merely possessed by the goddess could actually result in killing the goddess herself, as that would have simply made her an avatar... One of those loopholes you might want to exploit, Zek!)
Well considering that there where few survivors of the Dark Decent from Miyeritar in the Grand scheme of things, that point hardly matters much. Now new canon does trump old if one whats to follow the canon for what will occur, unchangeable. You and I both do not accept that, based on what I read of you.
The most recent source book saying that ALL Drow that had no taint of Demonic blood (even if they followed Lolth?) strikes me as more bizarre then how I heard it, and it clearly does not explain that ranger, unless he has some demonic blood in his veins.
After thousands of years even the Lawful Good Eilitraee follower has a good chance of having some demonic blood.
Thus this all does not settle the question, it just makes it more confusing.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 05:28:15
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No, not ALL of the untainted ones, sorry if I wasn't quite clear- I meant all the untainted ones that were NOT followers of Lolth or otherwise evil. Not a lot of them, to be sure, but combined with all those who were Eilistraeean or otehrwise non-evil of either Miyeritar blood or those who were "redeemed" from evil by virtue of faith or alignment, it adds up to a fair percentage, I imagine. Which leaves Lolth with all the rest. And I DO accept that part of the canon, at least up to her death and the transformation. I was really intrigued by the idea of her becoming "The Masked Lady" after killing Vaerhaun. (Sorry for any spoilers, folks!!) I just don't buy her getting killed with a mended sword, even if it WAS meant to kill gods. She was in a follower's body at the time, so really only part of her was destroyed. And her realm did not disappear, either, nor is her body floating on the Astral plane like those of Kiaransalee and Vaerhaun. She simply "vanished". As I understand it, all dead gods end up on he Astral, so why isn't she there? As far as I'm concerned, she pulled one over on Lolth by faking her own death, and has retreated for a while, leaving Corellon to hold her domain for her.
And yes, the demonic blood did make me ask why he was not changed. Near as I can figure it, either he does have a trace, or it has not yet affected him in the novels. As to canon for 100 years after? Salvatore has not gotten to that yet, except for one small excerpt from a conversation he had with someone after the 100 years had passed, but I don't recall if he had changed or not. And keep in mind, it was mostly the Illithir dark elves who were tainted, and they seem to have mostly gone more to the South and East in the Underdark, while the Miyeritaran ones seemed to stay closer to the Sword Coast region- where Menzo and Ched Nasad were built. Some apparently made it as far as Sshamath in those books. Other than that? Who knows. I'm just extrapolating from what I read, and comparing it to other sources to get an overall view of where the survivors might have settled. All the rest seem to have been mostly Illithir descent (ie- tained).
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 06:23:50
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The Ilthiry(sp) Dark Elves were from the Shaar area. They were according to LEoF were mating with Demons(Wendonai) and becoming corrupt.(I personally think that is where the Sun Elves got the Idea to become Daemonfey) The more Northern Dark Elves were not. Remember that the Drow that settled Menzo came from the Great Rift area right next door to the Shaar.
Now the Descent was a major screw up, because it affected all of the Dark Elves. Really the only major branch left was the group from down south. The northern group was already demolished due to the Dark Disaster. I believe the Descent was an attempt to cleanse the Southern Dark Elves of the Demonic taint.
I don't know if that makes any kinda sense.
Now in 4E Drow are a player race. Dark Elves are pretty much standard Elves now. I can play a standard Eld and call it a Dark Elf, or I can play a Drow, and be a Drow. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 07:03:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
No, not ALL of the untainted ones, sorry if I wasn't quite clear- I meant all the untainted ones that were NOT followers of Lolth or otherwise evil. Not a lot of them, to be sure, but combined with all those who were Eilistraeean or otehrwise non-evil of either Miyeritar blood or those who were "redeemed" from evil by virtue of faith or alignment, it adds up to a fair percentage, I imagine.
I'd actually recommend ignoring the "of Miyeritari descent" of that change as utter nonsense. Better to see it as an alignment thing or deity specific than try to pretend that 50 generations of interbreeding with Illythiiri couldn't possibly happen to certain bloodlines. Same thing applies to a demonic taint set that far back. 
quote:
And yes, the demonic blood did make me ask why he was not changed. Near as I can figure it, either he does have a trace, or it has not yet affected him in the novels. As to canon for 100 years after? Salvatore has not gotten to that yet, except for one small excerpt from a conversation he had with someone after the 100 years had passed, but I don't recall if he had changed or not.
Drizzt is still a Drow elf of good alignment. He still has black skin and white hair in the Ghost King which is set the year of the spell plague (I will not rant about the color changes... I will not rant about the color changes). |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 07:52:58
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No, of course not, Brimstone. But obviously, some Houses (Melarn for one) came through it without any taint, or very little. As to Menzo being settled from Great Rift, I had forgotten about that, but there again is the possibility of some Miyeritar survivors mingling with the others, or even being among the original settlers. It would make sense, given Menzo's proximity to where it was located- and Menzo was built so far back (-8000 DR or someting?) that there would have been a larger number of untainted ones around then. And given the drow tendancy for keeping their bloodlines "pure" along the family lines, I'd think that like most elves, they would probably have quite a few Houses who could trace their ancestry all the way back at least to a city's founding, if not further. I'm not saying that there would not be a LOT of mingling with the Illithiri ones, but obviously at least a few Houses (mind you, I'm talking about the "nobles" of a house, not the commoner soldiers and servants) came through nearly intact. (Again, Melarn being the prime example from he novels, along with at least two males from a House in Sshamath- can't remember names off-hand. Both of these noble lines still had Miyeritar Lore Gems!)
I agree about the Descent being a huge screw-up, and that was sort of touched on in the books. Hallistra's House was one of those that managed to escape the Dark Disaster, though, and there were several others, because the ruins housed quite a few of the Lore Gems waiting to be claimed.
About the Spellplague- how long after her "death" was that? I know it affected most of them immediately after the ritual was cast, but I'm also wondering if the Spellplague idea was thought up before or after the last book of Lady Penitant came out, and whether Salvatore has said anything about why Drizzt does not seem to have been affected. Even with the taint, he SHOULD have been, based on alignment alone. Quite a few non-evil ones were, just from Sshamath alone. (In fact, given the society there, I'd venture to guess a good percentage of that city.)
BTW, the "Redeemed" drow are considered standard elves, but with the altered appearance, I believe. Don't know all the particulars, as I have purposely stayed away from all things 4th ed after my first bad experience with it, but there's been a lot of talk over at Chosen of Eilistraee (which I'm also active on) about the changes and who was/was not affected. Don't remember which sourcebook it was supposed to be in, though. Don't really care, either, to be honest. The whole thing just leaves a sour taste for me... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 08:16:58
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IIRC In the Novel Blackstaff we discover that alot of the survivors of the Dark Disaster became Sharn to escape the destruction. Not all of them. So its probably a wash.
Khelben sacrificed himself to restore the City of Hope, and released alot of the 'Dark Elves that became Sharn' from the Dark Disaster.
I also know BRJ had a Sharn article in DDI last summer.
Steven Schend even said that one could use the Sharn to 'Save some Halruuan Archmages' during the Spellplague. The Order of Blue Fire anyone? Something to that effect.
I figure Sage will come along and correct me on this, so I could be wrong.
I kinda like the direction the Drow went in late 3E. Then again I was never really into them. I kinda liked the Lady P novels. Plus E's domain didn't dissolve or explode at the end of the last novel. Corellon stepped in and took over. To me that was Corellon re-accepting her back into the Fold. I veiw her as an Archfey now.
I also think that E 'died' in 1387. I don't know. I should probably re-read the books. Too many books and not enough time.
Interesting discussion going on.
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 05 Apr 2010 08:18:04 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 08:30:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Khelben sacrificed himself to restore the City of Hope, and released alot of the 'Dark Elves that became Sharn' from the Dark Disaster.
I figure Sage will come along and correct me on this, so I could be wrong.
I kinda like the direction the Drow went in late 3E. Then again I was never really into them. I kinda liked the Lady P novels. Plus E's domain didn't dissolve or explode at the end of the last novel. Corellon stepped in and took over. To me that was Corellon re-accepting her back into the Fold. I veiw her as an Archfey now.
I also think that E 'died' in 1387. I don't know. I should probably re-read the books. Too many books and not enough time.
8D]
Intereting. Did not know about the Sharn thing, and am not very familiar with them. That could also perhaps account for some of them? I wonder if any of them became drow later?
I liked the Lady Penitant novels, but not how the last one ended. But like I said, I'm not entirely sure she died. Yes, Quilue was beheaded by the sword with E in her body, but that basically just made her E's avatar, since no mortal body, even a Chosen, can truly contain a deity's ENTIRE esscence- not even Elminster could do that! If you read the last couple of chapters of Ascendancy of the Last, she just sort of "disappears", rather than fading out, or dissolving like the others. And the bit about her domain, like was mentioned earlier. An archfey might work. And you're right, I do think he took her back in.
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 08:36:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Steven Schend even said that one could use the Sharn to 'Save some Halruuan Archmages' during the Spellplague. The Order of Blue Fire anyone? Something to that effect.
I figure Sage will come along and correct me on this, so I could be wrong.
You're right -- 'tis the Order of Blue Fire. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 08:39:35
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Well, the problem with the date of the founding of Menzoberranzan and "untainted elves" is that the Descent took place around -10,000 DR, after the Dark Disaster (which killed off a lot of Miyeritari houses) and had been under Aryvandaar occupation before that (which had likely resulted in a few more houses getting offed as part of Aryvandaar's quest to suppress rebellion).
The other problem with assuming that the few Miyeritari houses left were able to keep the blood lines pure among the nobles is that genetic lines become inbred and one starts to see unpleasant recessive genes cropping up more frequently the longer an enforced isolation occurs, usually within 10 generations. One need only look at the spread of hemophilia through the royalty of Europe in the late 19th and early 20th century. All those royals had been marrying into the same families for at least a few generations.
Granted that I'm sure that any elflet who looked less than ok got served up to Lolth, but I'm sure they missed a few some of the time. Then there's the standard practice of priestesses choosing partners whenever they want, whoever they want. Perhaps the fallen Miyeritari managed to pull it off in the beginning, but I doubt that it could be kept separate for 50 generations.
As for the Lore gems, well they are things that can get stolen, lost, found, lost again, buried under soft peat for 100 years, found again and forgotten on the mantle for generations and still be considered "an ancient family heirloom."
I really prefer a capricious alignment reason rather than a convoluted mess with bad genetics and even worse cultural understanding. As for Drizzt, well, it really isn't central to his character and so doesn't seem like more than a point of trivia.
I'm really sorry if it sounds like I'm ranting but this was one of a few sore points for me with the Lady Penitent books. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 08:46:21
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Corellon did start taking in E's(to lazy to spell her name) Followers at the end of the last book IIRC.
That could be a forshadowing of the future design philosophy. Greater God, Lesser Gods, Exarchs. I don't know really just like to speculate.
Eldath and another God(I forget who) from the earlier Realms were made into Archfey in BRJ's Sarifal DDI Backdrop article awhile back. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 10:39:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Eldath and another God(I forget who) from the earlier Realms were made into Archfey in BRJ's Sarifal DDI Backdrop article awhile back.
Are you referring to Lurue? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 11:21:37
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I think thats the one. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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A question on Drow (3.5)
