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 How many orc races?
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Wenin
Senior Scribe

585 Posts

Posted - 17 Aug 2009 :  13:06:38  Show Profile Send Wenin a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So we have Gray Orcs, Orog, and Mountain Orcs laid out in FR material. Mountain Orcs are statistically identical to Orcs in the Monster Manual. However....

In the Sons of Gruumsh, when it describes the two groups of orc emissaries, they make specific reference to one group being mountain orcs, while they other are just orcs.

So, is there a 4th orc race, which are standard, run of the mill Orc from the monster manual?

Also, does anyone have a group picture of the different orc races in Faerun, as WoTC did for the various human races?

Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR.

Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 17 Aug 2009 :  20:56:53  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Races of Faerun gives us Grey Orcs, Half-Orcs, Mountain Orcs, Orogs and Tanarukks (Gallery here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4art/20030309a)

Unapproachable East gives us Blood Orcs or Blooded Ones(Gallery: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4art/20030510a)

There are probably one or two more.

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Wenin
Senior Scribe

585 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2009 :  06:23:58  Show Profile Send Wenin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I knew of the first group, though didn't mention Half-Orcs and Tanarukks, due to their half-breed-ish natures.

I wasn't aware of the Blood Orcs, thanks! =)

Still, I'm curious regarding the Mountain Orc vs Orc mystery. (at least it is to me)

Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2009 :  06:52:44  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bah, scro are the most fun flavor of orcs.

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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2009 :  07:35:00  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Bah, scro are the most fun flavor of orcs.



...says the Giant Space Hamster. And the fact that you used the word "flavor" is not at all coincidental, is it? Do Giant Space Hamsters eat scro? I don't recall...

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2009 :  17:24:11  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ogrillions, a mix of ogre and orc existed during the 1st and 2nd edition days, but I cant remember them having much of a role in the Realms. Or if they were ever updated to later editions.
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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2009 :  17:26:25  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wenin



Also, does anyone have a group picture of the different orc races in Faerun, as WoTC did for the various human races?




The nearest thing I can think of is the group picture of the goblinoids (which orcs were part of)in the Grey box. Great picture but it contained only one orc.
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Wenin
Senior Scribe

585 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2009 :  19:21:39  Show Profile Send Wenin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm going to have to dig up my Grey box stuff, but I'm sure with time and different artists, the depictions of Orcs change.

I've come to the conclusion, that there must be four breeds of "true" orc.
Orcs, Standard
Orcs, Mountain
Orcs, Gray
Orogs

This is ignoring the various half-breeds and magically created orcs.

Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR.
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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2009 :  08:59:16  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wenin

I'm going to have to dig up my Grey box stuff, but I'm sure with time and different artists, the depictions of Orcs change.

I've come to the conclusion, that there must be four breeds of "true" orc.
Orcs, Standard
Orcs, Mountain
Orcs, Gray
Orogs

This is ignoring the various half-breeds and magically created orcs.



You could also include the Ondonti and thayan neo-orogs (red & black) in the list. These would be sub-species of the above though.
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Wenin
Senior Scribe

585 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2009 :  01:42:37  Show Profile Send Wenin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Never heard of the Ondonti before! Thanks! Where are the Neo-Orogs from?

Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR.
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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2009 :  13:35:19  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Both of them are detailed in 2ed. Monstrous Annual 3 at least.

For the life of me I cant remember where the Ondonti were first mentioned. They are a group of Eldath worshipping orcs (I think their statistics are a bit different also)located north-east of the Moonsea if I rememberer correctly. Slavers make their lives more and more difficult.

The Neo-Orogs are the result of a Thayan breeding program. There are two types Red (strong warriors) and Black (scouts and ambushers).I think these were seen in the Spellbound box, but I will have to check.

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Wenin
Senior Scribe

585 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2009 :  15:47:00  Show Profile Send Wenin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah i found that the Ondonti are mentioned in the Bestiary of the Realms, Vol 1. I'm working to obtain a copy of that scroll, and Vol 2 as well.

The Neo-Orogs are seperate from the Bloody Ones, mentioned earlier in this scroll? The Bloody Ones are magically enhanced orcs, that take on a blood red look. Only mentions on the net for Neo-Orogs seems to be related to Icewind Dale, the video game.

http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/icewind/walkthrough-chapter4.shtml

Old pages on the D&D Wiki mention Neo-Orogs are half breeds between ogres and orcs, but they also say Orogs are halfbreeds as well..... so that source is clearly inaccurate. =)

If you could find the reference, that would be great. =)

Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR.
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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2009 :  15:54:36  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought orog was a mixture of orc and ogre.

The Bloody Ones sounds like the same thing as neo-orog, but as 3ed. was never my thing I am not sure. I know they are found in the Monstrous Manual 3, but as this collects from different sources the first mention must be somewhere else. Its been a while since I checked the Spellbound box outside of the main book. I seem to remember there being a separate booklet of monsters, that would be a good place to start looking. I will see into it in a couple of hours.
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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2009 :  16:19:57  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well that was painful. I managed to dig through my seldom-used heaps and have a look inside the Spellbound box. The Neo_orog's a recent (and successful) experiment of the Red Wizards are detailed in the monster-booklet found within the box and are mentioned several places in the other books. Hope that helps.
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Wenin
Senior Scribe

585 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2009 :  16:30:36  Show Profile Send Wenin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Found that the Ondonti are detailed in the Ruins of Zhentil Keep as well.

Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR.
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Wenin
Senior Scribe

585 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2009 :  18:18:15  Show Profile Send Wenin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Orog are descendants of an orc tribe that fled into the underdark. Detailed in the Races of Faerun I believe.

I'll check my spellbound material. thanks again =)

Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR.
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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2009 :  19:12:13  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wenin

Orog are descendants of an orc tribe that fled into the underdark. Detailed in the Races of Faerun I believe.

I'll check my spellbound material. thanks again =)



Ah, I am still caught in the TSR editions. The heritage of the orogs are a bit unclear there, but a mixture of ogre and orc blood is strongly suspected.
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Razz
Senior Scribe

USA
749 Posts

Posted - 26 Aug 2009 :  02:57:59  Show Profile Send Razz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mountain Orcs (standard orc)
Grey Orcs
Orogs
Ondonti


Those are the full-blooded orc races in the Realms.

For half-breeds:

Half-Orc
Tanarukk
Ogrillon
[Half-Ogre/Half-Orc; use Half-Ogre template on an orc from Dragon Magazine, forgot issue #]

For magical breeds:

Red/Black Orcs (use the Blooded One template for Red, dunno for Black)

That's all I know for sure so far. Not sure about Neo-Orogs, though that can easily be done by just putting Blooded One template on an Orog.

The confusion lies in previous editions with Orogs and Ogrillons. It was said in 2E that Orogs were a half-ogre/half-orc mix where the father was an orc and the mother was an ogre, and Ogrillons were the same but vice versa (of course, I may have mixed that up myself, but you get the idea). They retconned Orogs into a full-blooded orc race tempered and adapted to the Deep Underdark regions and taking on differences from Mountain and Grey Orcs from their physical abilities and culture.
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 26 Aug 2009 :  07:03:12  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Does anybody know what (may have) happened to the enslaved ondonti after the Shades blasted Zhentil Keep and the Citadel of the Raven? It would seem to me to be a good time to rise up and/or simply flee one's oppressors while they're picking chunks of masonry out of each other.

Edit: Concerning Orogs: I made them a milder retcon in my 3.x campaigns; they're orcs with less-than-half ogre blood that now breed true among themselves, rather than being a full-blooded orcish race. It made more sense to me to keep the old definition at least partly accurate and explained by the ignorance of non-orcs at the time.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 26 Aug 2009 07:07:46
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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 26 Aug 2009 :  11:02:25  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I always preferred the old version of the orog (big surprise, eh?). I find it more useful to have them being an element of surprise when facing orcs, giving the pc's harder opponents and an excuse for the orcs to act far more tactically.

Oh, and when we are talking about halfbreeds there are also the Boogins (half orc/half quaggoths).

Edited by - Jorkens on 27 Aug 2009 10:45:42
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Wenin
Senior Scribe

585 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2009 :  05:07:26  Show Profile Send Wenin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Why would a half ogre, half orc, become smarter? =)

Razz, have you looked at the Sons of Gruumsh adventure? Note how they describe the two groups of Orc Emissaries, and all the other orcs within the supplement. It specifically mentioned one group of orc emissaries to be Mountain orcs, while the rest of the orcs (besides the 3 orogs) are just... orcs.


Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR.
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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2009 :  10:48:29  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wenin

Why would a half ogre, half orc, become smarter? =)




OK I will give you that one. There is little logic in that development. You could think out logics around selective breeding, the harsh life of the half-breeds or heritage from more intelligent ogres of earlier ages, but it is still illogical. That doesn't change my preference for the older version though
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