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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 16:04:25
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Here’s Musing #4: Gods of Magic. I’m well aware that this one will probably the most controversial of the Musings, but it’s been two weeks since the last one, and it’s Monday, so I’ve got to get back on track.
Try to remember that I’m working from existing material, and I’ve got rules to follow. No matter what, I hope everyone enjoys, and I’m looking forward to the discussion that follows.
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Edited by - Garen Thal on 28 Oct 2008 17:47:31
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 16:06:30
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None of the true Gods of Magic survive in the Year of the Ageless One. Still, it bears a bit of examination to understand what has passed these last hundred years,
Mystra
The chaos of the last century—the planes tearing themselves apart, nations rising and disappearing from the landscape, gods’ deaths and rebirths and usurpation—can all be traced back to a single, monumental event: the slaying of the goddess Mystra by the god Cyric.
Long had Cyric despised Mystra, and since the Company of the Lynx ascended to godhood, a desire for vengeance festered in his dark and twisted mind. He coveted the power of the Lady of Mysteries, and quietly plotted what pleasures he could extract from Midnight once he had laid her low and stolen her divinity.
The Lady of Loss too coveted the power of Mystra, and her own hate for the Goddess of Magic dated from before time was counted, despite the passing, twice, of that divine mantle. Shar approached Cyric, and revealed to the mad god a secret: that Kelemvor had become to grow distant from Mystra, and he might use this to his own advantage.
Assuming the form of a mortal servant of Kelemvor, Cyric stole into Dweomerheart. Shar wreathed him in shadow, but even were he discovered by one of Mystra’s servitors, Cyric’s golden tongue would have shielded him from scrutiny. As former god of the dead, Cyric could escape Kelemvor’s notice as one of the False, and as a deity of illusion cloaked in Shadow Weave magic, he made his way through the plane to the heart of Mystra’s domain. To seal his guise, Cyric actually sloughed off much of his own divinity, concealing it among the maddening winds of the Supreme Throne to wait for his return.
There was no battle between the great gods, nor was there any taunting from Cyric as he accomplished his deed. The Black Sun laid his hand on Mystra’s shoulder, and for a brief moment, she too was a mortal—long enough for Cyric to slide his dull metal blade between Midnight’s ribs. No magic flashed or spells roared in that moment, and for a long, achingly mortal breath, it seemed as though all existence was silent.
And then Mystra screamed, a great cry of horror as the world itself was broken and remade anew.
Azuth
Bereft of both his home in the planes and the protection of his patron, Azuth fell through the Astral, and then through Hell, coming to rest, finally, at the foot of Asmodeus. The Lord of the Nine remembered well the destruction wrought by Mystra’s servants when Elminster Aumar of Shadowdale was prisoner in his domain, and took great pleasure in torturing and then slaying the Lord of Spells, eliminating whatever hope remained for the stabilization of magic as the inhabitants of Toril once new it. Asmodeus did not gain Azuth’s power over magic, instead growing in might and exerting his mastery over Hell, but that is another story…
Savras
Of all the gods of magic, Savras perhaps was least shocked by the Spellplauge. As the blue fire washed over Dweomerheart, the All-Seeing merely folded his hands and dissipated with the plane itself.
Since the Spellplague struck, stories of sudden and unexplained prophecy have emerged across Toril, particularly among young girls in coastal areas. A few strange pearls, milky and spotted, have been associated with these tales, but they disappear before anyone of magical talent or divine authority is able to investigate further.
Velsharoon
The Lord of the Undead found himself, in the wake of the Spellplague, with no patron at all to speak of—Szass Tam had conquered Thay entirely, and was gradually wiping out his worship; Talos, his initial patron, was subsumed by Gruumsh; neither Mystra, nor even Azuth, remained to lord over magic.
For years, Velsharoon tried to gather to himself remnants of the Lady of Mysteries’ wake and consuming the power of many skilled and ancient mages whose abilities were gained without the benefit of necromantic magic. Eventually, however, he came upon Aglarond and its ruler the Simbul—the most powerful mortal practitioner of magic in all Faerûn, daughter of the First Mystra and Chosen of the First and Second.
Greatly weakened, Velsharoon struggled in the battle that followed, and the Simbul unleashed on him madness and ravaging magics that had roiled through her body in the decades since Mystra’s death. Velsharoon was slain, his undead body claimed by the rulers of Aglarond, who guard it and the power that still remains in the sometimes-smoking cadaver.
Isis, Set and Thoth
The Mulhorandi gods of magic, Isis, Thoth and Set, fared no better than the Faerûnian deities, and often worse. What effects the sundering of the Weave might have had on them over the passing years is, thankfully, a matter of speculation, as the gods of the Mulan departed when the Spellplague wiped much of the Mulhorandi people from the face of Toril.
Corellon
Nestled in the forests of Arvandor, Corellon drew great and powerful ancient castings to him, binding himself more deeply to the older ways of elven magics than before. Though not truly a deity of magic, Larethian has become, in part, a symbol of the mystery and power of magical skill, particularly as it relates to fey traditions of spellcasting. Those who find beauty in spellcraft, or who spend their lives as magical artisans, are more likely to turn to the First of the Seldarine for guidance in the aftermath of Mystra’s fall.
The Lost Prayer
For years, the followers of Mystra waited for her return, or for a successor to rise and take her place. As yet, this has not happened; some sages speculate that this is due to the nature of the deaths of Mystryl and the first Mystra as acts of sacrifice (Mystra passed a great deal of her power to her mortal servants before attempting to return to the planes), and the subsequent unraveling of the Weave and the bursting of the bonds of magic. Like many things in Faerûn, it is likely that there will be some deity to arise to claim the mantle of magic, but that may be many years in the making. Still, those who remember the name Mystra whisper quiet prayers, remembering the example of long-dead Amaunator, and hoping for the return of their goddess… |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 16:18:52
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| Have you seen Arioch's scroll on what happened between Cyric, Shar and Mystra? Both yours and his gives some good ideas for what may have happened to create the Spellplague. I'm just wishing there still was a god/goddess of magic. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 16:32:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why did Mystra lose her godhood at Cyric's touch? 
His touch surprised her and she sneezed? Then, when Cyric said 'Bless you', he did?
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I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 16:42:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why did Mystra lose her godhood at Cyric's touch?
IMO, BC makes it sound like it was her own choice.
People do sad things for love.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 16:43:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why did Mystra lose her godhood at Cyric's touch?
Hmm. That's a very good question. If only I wasn't trying to keep that as a mystery for people to play with, I'd give a straight answer. It's a very convoluted, kind of "not ready yet" thing I've been weave together that involves the nature of the Weave and Shadow Weave, the divinity and mortality of the gods that ascended during and after the Time of Troubles, the precise assistance that Shar provided Cyric, and the (speculative) fate of Mask's portfolio following the events of Paul Kemp's current trilogy.
So there is an answer, and it's not so simple as a game of tag. |
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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 18:17:39
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I must say that I love the poetic touch of your style Garen... I also like your concern about the mortals Cyric, Mystra and Kelemvor were not so long ago...
... is a very difficult task to explain the death of Mystra : too many clues that can be used, too many different stories that can be told but it is the founding event of the new Realms, and so a fact that demands to be explained...
... leaving it obscure I dont think is a solution. |
Edited by - Arioch on 27 Oct 2008 18:19:39 |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 18:37:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
I must say that I love the poetic touch of your style Garen... I also like your concern about the mortals Cyric, Mystra and Kelemvor were not so long ago...
... is a very difficult task to explain the death of Mystra : too many clues that can be used, too many different stories that can be told but it is the founding event of the new Realms, and so a fact that demands to be explained...
... leaving it obscure I dont think is a solution.
thank you, Arioch.
Please don't think that I'm being deliberately obscure; one of the things I'm attempting to do with the Musings is to explain things without closing the story, and to build a tale that weaves through the various pieces and eventually comes to a greater understanding of the Realms. One of the things I think the Realms has lost over the years is the idea that stories continue, and that not everything needs to be neatly encapsulated in one discrete package.
This Musing was about the Gods of Magic. It's not about the Spellplague, or about the Shadow Weave, or Cyric or Kelemvor or Shar--even if we touch on them. Nor is it about the fate of Mask, which I am very deliberately keeping my hands off of until I know its status, but which also plays into my ideas. It's not even specifically about Mystra, but all the gods of magic. We might get into all those issues later on, but I don't believe in closing all the doors to a room all at once. |
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GRYPHON
Senior Scribe
USA
527 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 20:05:37
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| Nicely done... |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 21:39:50
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| Interesting, but I would have to say that Azuth getting killed by Asmodeus ticks me off even more than Mystra getting killed by Cyric. Somehow it feels like a bad guy shooting a kitten in the head and not being punished for it... |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 21:45:18
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Interesting, but I would have to say that Azuth getting killed by Asmodeus ticks me off even more than Mystra getting killed by Cyric. Somehow it feels like a bad guy shooting a kitten in the head and not being punished for it...
I can't take credit for your disappointment there, unfortunately. This was a detail established in FRCG, and I'm just postulating on things at this point. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 21:59:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Interesting, but I would have to say that Azuth getting killed by Asmodeus ticks me off even more than Mystra getting killed by Cyric. Somehow it feels like a bad guy shooting a kitten in the head and not being punished for it...
I can't take credit for your disappointment there, unfortunately. This was a detail established in FRCG, and I'm just postulating on things at this point.
Relax man, I know you're not to blame for that. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 05:35:24
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Very well done, and very interesting... I have to say, it almost suspends my disbelief of the whole event in the first place. I like the explanation for Cyric gaining entrance to Dweomerheart; that was more or less what I thought had happened, but in more detail (my theory was "Shar helps Cyric get into Dweomerheart to off Mystra because Shar's a conniving b!tch"). Of course, I also now understand the deaths of the gods of magic in the context of 4e: as I've stated elsewhere, no power like 4e arcane magic could be taken seriously if it had divine backing, nor could its deities. Heck, even without gods of magic, I have trouble taking 4e arcane magic seriously. (Stop! Bad rant!)
Ahem. Anyway, as you said yourself, it probably is the most controversial of the Musings, but its controversy stems from its subject matter, not from the writing itself. You've taken a very difficult topic and brought it as close to sensibility as possible. I would suspect, regarding your speculation on new deities of arcane magic, that such a move won't happen until 5e, if then... Boccob and Wee Jas are gone from Greyhawk too, apparently, which makes no sense... Boccob was LN, and the complaint against Mystra was that she was good-aligned.
On a distantly related note, I'm curious as to whether the strategy of catering to those who don't like the setting has resulted in a net gain of sales for the 4e Realms. Probably not, because the people who hated Mystra hated Elminster just as much, and for an equally irrational reason, and he's still around. 
Anyway, I'm tired, and I don't want this turning into a rant, because reading these Musings made me feel better about the Spellplague than I ever have. I still hate it with a passion and plan to completely ignore it in my campaign, but my hatred is somewhat less absolute than it was. Thank you for that, at least, as well as for a stimulating and thought-provoking Musing. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 05:49:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Boccob was LN, and the complaint against Mystra was that she was good-aligned.
Boccob is (not need to assume he is gone, because why should he or Wee Jas disappear because of an accident happening to a FR goddess in another universe?) - Boccob is true neutral, whereas Wee Jas is LN. (She is also the goddess of death and love, making her survival much more likely, and a "racial" deity (being a Suel goddess). But given the fate of the elven pantheon, that does not mean much.) |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 06:01:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
On a distantly related note, I'm curious as to whether the strategy of catering to those who don't like the setting has resulted in a net gain of sales for the 4e Realms. Probably not, because the people who hated Mystra hated Elminster just as much, and for an equally irrational reason, and he's still around.
The 4E Realms are "done" and sales will likely taper off into 2009 to no doubt very small amounts (in relative terms) by 2010. The only prospect of reversing that likely trend will be some awesome DDI content. I guess we'll all have to wait and see how that eventuates. Now the focus is on selling core products to help DMs and players enhance their 4E Realms.
-- George Krashos
P.S. Sorry to derail the thread. I like the 'take' on the death of Mystra Brian, and the write-up has set a few tiny wheels in motion regarding various ideas. Good job! |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 28 Oct 2008 06:03:15 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 12:28:08
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I appreciate your musings and the time and energy you devote to them.
This here though just proves to me how wrong killing Mystra in Dweomerheart is/was. Maybe.....just maybe, if in his guise Cyric tricked Mystra into leaving her realm for a reconcilitory meetimg with Kelemvor.....he might have got the drop on her. But just don't see it possible in her seat of power, with Cyric sloughing off most of his godhood. And no way, no how does she let anyone touch her.
Oh well.
If even you cannot make it work for me, then I will just have to ignore it, let go and move on.
Thanks Brian! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 13:15:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
On a distantly related note, I'm curious as to whether the strategy of catering to those who don't like the setting has resulted in a net gain of sales for the 4e Realms. Probably not, because the people who hated Mystra hated Elminster just as much, and for an equally irrational reason, and he's still around.
Wow, can you imagine how ticked off everyone would be if they *had* killed off El and/or Drizzt as well?  |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 13:27:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
Boccob is (not need to assume he is gone, because why should he or Wee Jas disappear because of an accident happening to a FR goddess in another universe?) - Boccob is true neutral, whereas Wee Jas is LN. (She is also the goddess of death and love, making her survival much more likely, and a "racial" deity (being a Suel goddess). But given the fate of the elven pantheon, that does not mean much.)
Just a nitpick--Wee Jas is a goddess of vanity, but not necessarily a goddess of love (or beauty, for that matter). Also, Greyhawk gods that originated as deities of a specific human pantheon are not necessarily quite so provincial in the "current" Greyhawk. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 28 Oct 2008 13:28:32 |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 14:00:03
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
But just don't see it possible in her seat of power, with Cyric sloughing off most of his godhood. And no way, no how does she let anyone touch her.
Ahh, but it is precisely his sloughing off of divinity that allows him to approach Mystra in the first place. The most powerful goddess of a world is not going to allow any other deity to enter her home, but a powerful goddess, still fairly new and naive in her power, would see no threat in a mortal, particularly not one disguised as a servant of her former lover.
I understand that some people aren't going to buy Cyric's killing of Mystra no matter what the backstory is. But Cyric knows Mystra, and both he and Shar have been looking for ways to permanently eliminate the Goddess of Magic. Combine Mystra's inexperience, her mortal failings and clinging to emotional ties--which are touched on in Realmslore--with the carefully hatched plot of one of the world's most ancient deities and a god so devious as to abandon his godhood for a time in order to slay his enemy, and I think there's a plausible tale there.
One last thing: why "no way, no how?" Mystra was a human, once, and humans are consoled by human contact. Despite her divinity, there are hints and direct statements of Mystra's need to stay in contact with humanity throughout Realmslore. If, confronted with something that wrenched her heartstrings (like a final farewell from Kelemvor, for example), Mystra surrendered to her emotions for a moment, it's certainly possible--if not likely--that she might have welcomed such a touch. Not all deities have a "YOU DARE TO ENTER MY PRESENCE, MEWLING WEAKLING?!?" mentality, and the Second Mystra is least likely to have that attitude, in my opinion.
Still, I appreciate your honesty about the topic. I knew this one wouldn't please everyone (I'm putting paint on a house whose foundations are crumbling, in the opinions of some), but I thought the issue needed exploration... |
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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
348 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 14:20:53
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| I like the poetic description of Cyric killing Mystra, if it had been offically described more like that (or AT ALL!) I think more people would accept it. |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 15:27:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Just a nitpick--Wee Jas is a goddess of vanity, but not necessarily a goddess of love (or beauty, for that matter).
This is not quite correct. Her portfolio is "beauty (vanity)", and Dragon #350 described her as: "Although usually overlooked, Wee Jas is a love goddess." (P. 22) |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
Edited by - Ayunken-vanzan on 28 Oct 2008 15:27:46 |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 15:43:25
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As much as I appreciate the discussion of Mystra in relationship to other D&D deities, I'd ask that we stick to discussions relative to the topic. I would rather this thread not become a back-and-forth about which source describes Wee Jas as what sort of deity, which it's already threatening to do.
Thanks. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 17:19:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
But just don't see it possible in her seat of power, with Cyric sloughing off most of his godhood. And no way, no how does she let anyone touch her.
Ahh, but it is precisely his sloughing off of divinity that allows him to approach Mystra in the first place. The most powerful goddess of a world is not going to allow any other deity to enter her home, but a powerful goddess, still fairly new and naive in her power, would see no threat in a mortal, particularly not one disguised as a servant of her former lover.
I understand that some people aren't going to buy Cyric's killing of Mystra no matter what the backstory is. But Cyric knows Mystra, and both he and Shar have been looking for ways to permanently eliminate the Goddess of Magic. Combine Mystra's inexperience, her mortal failings and clinging to emotional ties--which are touched on in Realmslore--with the carefully hatched plot of one of the world's most ancient deities and a god so devious as to abandon his godhood for a time in order to slay his enemy, and I think there's a plausible tale there.
One last thing: why "no way, no how?" Mystra was a human, once, and humans are consoled by human contact. Despite her divinity, there are hints and direct statements of Mystra's need to stay in contact with humanity throughout Realmslore. If, confronted with something that wrenched her heartstrings (like a final farewell from Kelemvor, for example), Mystra surrendered to her emotions for a moment, it's certainly possible--if not likely--that she might have welcomed such a touch. Not all deities have a "YOU DARE TO ENTER MY PRESENCE, MEWLING WEAKLING?!?" mentality, and the Second Mystra is least likely to have that attitude, in my opinion.
Still, I appreciate your honesty about the topic. I knew this one wouldn't please everyone (I'm putting paint on a house whose foundations are crumbling, in the opinions of some), but I thought the issue needed exploration...
To get this thread back on topic (my responsibility, since I pulled it off course), I like your reasoning here. Things make even less nonsense now than they did after reading your original musing on this topic ("more sense" still doesn't feel right, despite (or perhaps because of) my comments on 4e magic) and I think you've done as well with explaining this event as anybody could hope. Your home improvement analogy may be fitting, but we won't know either way until the bean-counters at Wizbro announce the effects of the change... at which time, those of us who disagree with the announcement (whatever it is) will promptly scream "Coverup!" The primary effect of FR 4e has been to deeply divide the Realms fanbase, and that may well have been its intended effect... if I sound paranoid, it's because I am. Paranoia is the natural (if not intended) consequence of supporting an organization that doesn't ask for your opinion until it's too late for that opinion to matter.
Anyway, enough paranoid ranting. In short: This is the most interesting Musing yet, probably in part because it looks at the single event that inspired me to do what Ed has encouraged us to do from the OGB days and throw out canon that I didn't like. Prior to the Smellplague, I was quite happy to use the Realms as provided, because I loved the world and the people in it. Hopefully I've corrected the course of the scroll sufficiently and we can get back to discussion of the fates of Mystra, Azuth, Savras, and Velsharoon, the last of whom is the only one whose fate I am truly satisfied with.
Btw: Savras is part of the answer to the question "How do we fix this?" if the owners of the Realms IP (whoever they are) decide to wind back the clock for 5e. Just a teaser; I have it all worked out.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 17:40:31
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If the killing of Mystra had been explained like this originally, I'd still have had the same reaction to this incoherent and needless mess. By the way, Greater Goddess with no contingencies? Only a year after the whole Tyr/Helm insanity that Cyric gets suspected of?
Frankly, I'd have a better time believing that Mystra died falling down some stairs. It'd have the advantage of being less offensive, for one. |
Edited by - Uzzy on 28 Oct 2008 17:43:35 |
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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 17:42:03
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quote:
Still, I appreciate your honesty about the topic. I knew this one wouldn't please everyone (I'm putting paint on a house whose foundations are crumbling, in the opinions of some), but I thought the issue needed exploration...
I agree with you... and you have my complete support on this
... even if my vision of the killing of Mystra is different from yours 
Shar already failed to strike at Mystra, so I prefer to consider Cyric as the plot starter. |
Edited by - Arioch on 28 Oct 2008 17:48:53 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 22:29:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
If the killing of Mystra had been explained like this originally, I'd still have had the same reaction to this incoherent and needless mess.
I have to admit, so would I... |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2008 : 05:16:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
If the killing of Mystra had been explained like this originally, I'd still have had the same reaction to this incoherent and needless mess.
I have to admit, so would I...
As would I... recall my earlier verdict...
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
... I have to say, it almost suspends my disbelief of the whole event in the first place. ... Of course, I also now understand the deaths of the gods of magic in the context of 4e: as I've stated elsewhere, no power like 4e arcane magic could be taken seriously if it had divine backing, nor could its deities. Heck, even without gods of magic, I have trouble taking 4e arcane magic seriously. (Stop! Bad rant!)
I left the rest of the paragraph in there to emphasize how I feel about the deaths of the gods of magic... apart from Velsharoon, who got exactly what was coming to him after his betrayal of Talos. 
I've already posted how I think the Smellplague should have unfolded with the death of Mystra and the destruction of the Weave in an earlier thread... link forthcoming. When I have my alternative scenario complete, I will be posting it in its entirety; so far, I've just posted bits and pieces here and there as they occur to me, and some details may change in the reconciliation of all the parts. Now that I'm working again,     regarding the choice between having a paycheck and finding time for Realmslore.
Edit: As promised (or threatened): Link to my post regarding the plausible results of the death of Mystra and the Weave: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11596 |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 29 Oct 2008 05:52:40 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2008 : 12:54:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
But just don't see it possible in her seat of power, with Cyric sloughing off most of his godhood. And no way, no how does she let anyone touch her.
Ahh, but it is precisely his sloughing off of divinity that allows him to approach Mystra in the first place. The most powerful goddess of a world is not going to allow any other deity to enter her home, but a powerful goddess, still fairly new and naive in her power, would see no threat in a mortal, particularly not one disguised as a servant of her former lover.
I understand that some people aren't going to buy Cyric's killing of Mystra no matter what the backstory is. But Cyric knows Mystra, and both he and Shar have been looking for ways to permanently eliminate the Goddess of Magic. Combine Mystra's inexperience, her mortal failings and clinging to emotional ties--which are touched on in Realmslore--with the carefully hatched plot of one of the world's most ancient deities and a god so devious as to abandon his godhood for a time in order to slay his enemy, and I think there's a plausible tale there.
One last thing: why "no way, no how?" Mystra was a human, once, and humans are consoled by human contact. Despite her divinity, there are hints and direct statements of Mystra's need to stay in contact with humanity throughout Realmslore. If, confronted with something that wrenched her heartstrings (like a final farewell from Kelemvor, for example), Mystra surrendered to her emotions for a moment, it's certainly possible--if not likely--that she might have welcomed such a touch. Not all deities have a "YOU DARE TO ENTER MY PRESENCE, MEWLING WEAKLING?!?" mentality, and the Second Mystra is least likely to have that attitude, in my opinion.
Still, I appreciate your honesty about the topic. I knew this one wouldn't please everyone (I'm putting paint on a house whose foundations are crumbling, in the opinions of some), but I thought the issue needed exploration...
I guess what I dont buy is , how many times have we seen a chosen take much more "damage" than a simple dagger between the ribs and survive?
She had no shielding at all? No contingencies? She couldn't have used the raw energy of the weave to heal herself as she fryed him with it? |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2008 : 13:02:17
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Good points all.
But I don't think Garen can or should answer them. He's giving his interpretation of events based on the (rather skimpy, IMHO) facts that are already present. We've been through all of this before, in many different threads and the answer always comes out the same. So rather than picking up the shovel to beat this dead horse again, why don't we let it rest? |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2008 : 13:37:14
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I guess what I dont buy is , how many times have we seen a chosen take much more "damage" than a simple dagger between the ribs and survive?
A dagger between the ribs, if properly applied, can be (for all intents and purposes) instantly fatal. I won't go into details, because they're fairly gruesome, but in anatomical terms--forget the game for just a moment--you can do a tremendous amount of damage with one strike.quote:
She had no shielding at all? No contingencies? She couldn't have used the raw energy of the weave to heal herself as she fryed him with it?
At that moment, no. In the instant that she was killed, Mystra was effectively *not* Mystra, but something more vulnerable and mortal. It means a lot more than simply "she had fewer hp." For a brief moment, Mystra was, for all intents and purposes, entirely divorced from the Weave. When that moment ended, that connection tried to reestablish itself (being a natural result of her mantle as Goddess of Magic), but it was already too late--Mystra was dead, and the Weave literally tore itself apart for lack of the proper being to carefully arrange its many threads.
--
Remember, if you would, the creation of the Weave and its first goddess, Mystryl: Selûne tore magic from herself and hurled it at her dark sister, Shar. The magics of Selûne and Shar combined into a being--Mystryl--who forever after was to stand between the sisters as a balance, and guardian of all magic.
What, then if the Goddess of Magic died--not once, but twice--to be replaced by a being that was no longer a keeper of that balance? What if Shar found the opportunity to employ her long-woven Shadow Weave more fully, and the means, perhaps, of robbing the neophyte Mystra of the power that once originated from her? What if the Lady of Loss somehow found a way to cloak a god briefly in the magic of Shadow, and rob divinity from a once-mortal deity, even if only for a time? What if the Dark Chronology had associated with it prophecies and portents that we don't know about? And the Liar shall return to the Mage all that was once hers, and offer her another gift: Death.
And what if, in the wake of all these things, a skilled assassin came upon the Goddess of Magic, and wreathed her in Shadow, returning her to her mortal form just long enough to slay? Robbed of her divinity, essentially returned to her form as Midnight, she had no great spells or defenses, no contingencies to call upon, no control of the Weave to exert, in that moment.
Sure, it's a lot of "what-ifs", but that's exactly the point of the exercise: to make sense of things that haven't been explained by filling in the blanks. We have two points on the map in reality, and I'm merely trying to chart the best course... not to make the destination more appealing.
At the very least, let's enjoy the trip. |
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Monday Musing 10/27: Gods of Magic
