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Ifthir
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 18:00:43
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Recently, one of my PC's wanted to learn a specific spell after having levelled up, but the spell was a very obscure one, that wouldn't be readily accessible. His response when I told him 'no' was "Well, how do I know what spells I can select from, when I levelup?". I really didn't have a good response to this question, so I was hoping some of you might have some feedback.
So, how do you as a DM decide what spells are even selectable for players as a free learned Wizard spell on level-up?
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Iliyan
Acolyte
Croatia
42 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 18:10:40
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It is considered( according to the PhB 3.5) that spells a Wizard gains after a level are gradually researched during his/her travels. This is a "easy way" to explain it. The hard way would be that in order to actually get those spells, he/she would HAVE to do some research of his/her own. This would generally mean a wizard's laboratory + spellbooks + spell research( if the spell is a obscure/new one, if its PhB you can just buy a scroll).
This is how I would interpret it. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 18:11:14
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| Actually, I always envisioned the 'free' spells in that the Wizard has researched and gained enough knowledge to create the spell, much like the original creator. Also adds in any 'personal touches' they might want to include (colors, etc). |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
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Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 20:31:52
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The old FRA had a page breaking spells up into categories of common, uncommon, and rare. Unfortunately, few other products have worried about how common spells were (though Seven Sisters is one of the few exceptions).
Me, I'd decide how common a spell was, first, going in part from the FRA list. Common spells would be freely available (could self-research). Uncommons would be possible to self-research, but it would be tougher. Rares would be nearly impossible to self-research, unless seen or a very good description was available. For both rare and uncommon spells, the best way to acquire them would be to find them on scrolls or in spellbooks. |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 21:31:49
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The 3.x FRCS explains that "the spells and domains described in the Player's Handbook form the common knowledge of Faerun's bards, clerics, druids, paladins, rangers, socerers, and wizards. [...] The domains and spells described here [i. e. the FRCS] represent the secrets and special knowledge avaiblable to certain groups and individuals, plus a few Faerunian spells that have become common parlance among the land's spellcasters." (p. 61).
This may be a guidance for adjudicating how common and accessible a spell in Faerun is. |
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Dewaint
Learned Scribe
Germany
148 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 23:34:06
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well, I use a homebrewd rule:
basically if an arcane spell-hurler wants to level up, he got three choices:
First one; if he level up without any master or tutor he got the chance to self-research common spells.
Second one; if he looks for a trainer to reach the next level he got the chance to use his/her laboratory for spell-research(common, uncommon) or the master gives him (an unwritten rule followed by all wizards who offer training)one spell from his repertoire, which can be of any category. This depends solely on the relatiomship between trainer and PC  .
Third one: he got his own (huge ) laboratory and library so he can research any common, uncommon, and rare spell. This is quite often more a kind of adventure of his own: looking around for specific lore, tomes and so on.
This categories are more or less based on the old FRA and other FR sources with any details about source or author of the spell
Divine spell-hurler are handled completely different as they usually get thier spells from a deity. But again, this is homemade soup  .
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 23:38:15
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I prefer to have players acquire spells along the way while adventuring unless they "ARE" going to research them. I also adhere to the old rules about named spells being "rare" or "unique" if they aren't in the PHB (i.e., no spells of the Simbul's or Khelben's unless I provide them). The option I always give players is that we can do it "by the book" and they can get two spells per level, or they can trust me and take whatever I present them (if they can learn them).
To facilitate spell research, I have ruled that on most days there is a certain amount of time available every day even while adventuring (e.g. while food is being cooked or the henchpeople are setting up tents or perimeter defenses). The PCs simply state that they are researching spells, note how much of that down time they have accumulated, and, if they have had access to a library and lab (they usually do thanks to some well-placed items in past treasures) they can roll to see if they successfully researched a spell. By and large, however, they usually just take what I put in their path.
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 02:01:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The old FRA had a page breaking spells up into categories of common, uncommon, and rare. Unfortunately, few other products have worried about how common spells were (though Seven Sisters is one of the few exceptions).
Me, I'd decide how common a spell was, first, going in part from the FRA list. Common spells would be freely available (could self-research). Uncommons would be possible to self-research, but it would be tougher. Rares would be nearly impossible to self-research, unless seen or a very good description was available. For both rare and uncommon spells, the best way to acquire them would be to find them on scrolls or in spellbooks.
Ditto.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
502 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 15:50:59
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I normally hand them this. But I warn them that the spells they pick may need to be justified and I may very well deny them.
I then use my DMs judgment and let them have their say. For the most part I use the PHB as a basic set of spells any mage can learn given enough time.
After that its a question of have they seen and ID this spell before? If yes then sure they can learn it. Have they seen or heard of a spell like this before? This could even be the spell they are trying to learn that they have not IDed. If yes then they may have to make a Spellcraft or caster level check DC based on the level of the spell and modifiers dependent on experience seeing a spell vs hearing about it vs having it cast on them.
The other caveats are secret spells, ancient spells, and spells not normally available on planes they have been on. These normally require additional questing, items or rolls.
Example:
A player in my campaign recently leveled and they wanted to learn Boccob's Rolling Cloud. I honestly wasn't familiar with the spell so I went and looked it up and read up on it. It wasn't a secret spell or limited to the clergy. It seemed fairly common and Boccob's followers seemed open to sharing information.
I asked him why his character would have thought up this spell. And he mentioned an encounter with spells that dealt multiple energy damage and another encounter with cone like spells.
So I determined there was a chance for him to know about this spell. I had him roll a knowledge planar check, DC 14, and he passed it. So his character had heard of this spell and knew enough about it to try to come up with it from scratch. He then had to roll a Spellcraft check, DC 16, which he also passed. So now he is a wizard in Faerun with this spell that would have originated in Greyhawk kind of cool.
If you are wondering how I came up with the DCs, the spell's caster level + 10 + modifiers. So the base was DC 15 for both checks, I did -1 since Boccob and his followers do travel planes and share spells. And +1 to DC since his similar spells weren't that close. |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
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Ifthir
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 16:58:40
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The reason I made the intial post was that one of my players wanted to learn the "Lauthdryn's Cleaving" spell from the 2E Magister sourcebook.
As the character in question is an accomplished wizard (Hes 19th level), I can understand his desire and ability to research a spell, but like the poster above me stated, I can't come up with a way the character would find out about this spell/research it. The player pretty much admitted he meta-gamed to know it, with the argument that his character (Wiz16/Acm3) would have heard about this spell as he is a well accomplished mage.
I was hoping some of you had this issue occur before and had a good way to handle it. I don't want to be a rule nazi but at the same time I don't want to act like the character in question has a conduit to Mystra herself's spellbook. This is a 3E, pre-spellplague campaign FWIW. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 17:14:14
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Think of it this way.
When does a fighter learn to swing his sword better or gain insight into how to wield a new weapon?
How does a cleric come by their new spells?
Does a ranger just know more about their favored enemies?
I think it all is the same. There's downtime for the characters that is never touched through the actual game, where research and such is gained. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 17:36:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Ifthir
The reason I made the intial post was that one of my players wanted to learn the "Lauthdryn's Cleaving" spell from the 2E Magister sourcebook.
As the character in question is an accomplished wizard (Hes 19th level), I can understand his desire and ability to research a spell, but like the poster above me stated, I can't come up with a way the character would find out about this spell/research it. The player pretty much admitted he meta-gamed to know it, with the argument that his character (Wiz16/Acm3) would have heard about this spell as he is a well accomplished mage.
I was hoping some of you had this issue occur before and had a good way to handle it. I don't want to be a rule nazi but at the same time I don't want to act like the character in question has a conduit to Mystra herself's spellbook. This is a 3E, pre-spellplague campaign FWIW.
Okay, with that info, I'd make it very, very difficult for him to learn that spell. Secrets of the Magister notes on page 91 that except for a few adventurers who search the right ruin or tomb, that no one but a Magister should know the spells in that book. And there haven't been enough Magisters or people that survived dueling with them for knowledge of this spell to be any kind of common -- in game, I'd say the spell might be described (just its effects -- not the spell itself) in no more than a dozen books, and all of those would be either personal journals or books discussing legendary magic.
That said, I'd say it's very unlikely that the mage has even heard of this spell. It doesn't matter that he's high-level -- it's just too obscure a spell. I'd give him, at best, a 5% chance to have even heard of it. If he has heard of it, another low percentage roll should be used to determine if there were enough details for him to be able to research it (because most observers, unless they are paying very close attention and are well-versed in spellcraft, aren't going to be able to say much more than "there was a beam of light that cut thru this magic barrier").
And looking at the spell description itself, it's a powerful spell -- how many spells out there require additional, outside power? That factor alone is also going to add to the difficulty of researching the spell. I'd say he'd be more likely to come up with a spell that had similar effects, but was not as powerful.
If the mage's character is saying "Well, surely I've heard of it!" then it's going to be nearly impossible for him to research -- as I said, it would take a very good roll to hear of it, another to have enough info to be able to research it, and then another to actually pull it off.
So I'd not just let him have it.
Now, if you want him to have it, then he can either find a spellbook with it or find a journal describing it. The latter option gives him a slight advantage, but the difficulty in figuring out how to pull it off is still there. Of course, if he just finds the spellbook, then he's going to become a target for all those mages who get their spells by slaying others -- or for assassins hired by them.  |
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Ifthir
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 18:19:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Now, if you want him to have it, then he can either find a spellbook with it or find a journal describing it. The latter option gives him a slight advantage, but the difficulty in figuring out how to pull it off is still there. Of course, if he just finds the spellbook, then he's going to become a target for all those mages who get their spells by slaying others -- or for assassins hired by them.
Yeah, in the end, what I think I will do, is to have the player have to quest in some way to even find a spellbook that could possibly have the spell in question, and I think I will then give him a very very low % chance to even learn it. Do any of you reduce learning % chance as a deterrent to the PC's knowing too many obscure spells? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 18:49:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Ifthir
Do any of you reduce learning % chance as a deterrent to the PC's knowing too many obscure spells?
I think the best way to keep PCs from knowing too many obscure spells is simply to keep them obscure -- you can't learn a spell if you don't have it to learn. Once the spell is in hand, I'd give them the same learning chance as they had with any other spell. The only modifiers I'd put in place would be dependent on how similar the spell is to one they already know -- if you know fireball, delayed blast fireball is a piece of cake. If all you know is fire spells, though, ice-based spells are going to be more tricky. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 19:58:21
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| Finding rare magic is one of the main goals of wizards. If you're going to gloss it as happening offstage, you might as well do the same with the cabal-infiltrating, dragon-slaying, and dungeon-delving and not have actual play sessions at all. |
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Ifthir
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 20:00:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Finding rare magic is one of the main goals of wizards. If you're going to gloss it as happening offstage, you might as well do the same with the cabal-infiltrating, dragon-slaying, and dungeon-delving and not have actual play sessions at all.
Agreed, since the player wants it so badly, we'll make an adventure to see if he has the skills to get it. Of course, the current spellbook owner might not want to part with it that easily... |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2008 : 11:27:28
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| Personally I think its one of the problems of 3rd edition that Wizards get these spells on level up "for free". The PHB states that they are the result of research done in the downtime between adventures. I doubt many PCs actually do that though, so they effectively get them for free. Requiring a certain amount of gold - and most importantly time - spent on this research is one of the necessary methods to balance them. If a spell is pretty obscure you could increase the required amount of gold by a lot and if your player complains about this just say that no researcher ever knew ahead of time that he would succeed for sure. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2008 : 13:05:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Personally I think its one of the problems of 3rd edition that Wizards get these spells on level up "for free". The PHB states that they are the result of research done in the downtime between adventures. I doubt many PCs actually do that though, so they effectively get them for free. Requiring a certain amount of gold - and most importantly time - spent on this research is one of the necessary methods to balance them. If a spell is pretty obscure you could increase the required amount of gold by a lot and if your player complains about this just say that no researcher ever knew ahead of time that he would succeed for sure.
I have to disagree. The 'free' spells always seemed to me to be those spells that the wizard 'figured out' while working with magic. There's nothing restricting them from buying scrolls and copying them to their spellbooks to gain additional spells, which costs both time and money.
In the Realms, especially, the free spells were how Mystra distributed new magic to the world (IMO). |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 31 Oct 2008 13:06:17 |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2008 : 13:38:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Mystra distributed new magic
We have a totally different view of how things work there. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2008 : 14:52:23
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In my games the wizards tend to get nothin' unless they go a-lookin'. This isn't just important for balance, it's vital. Otherwise the wizard's strengths are just handed to them. The fighter is not gifted with a +3 broadsword upon reaching 15th level - she has to earn it.
This is what the whole idea of character customization is based around. Not only 'can' you tailor-make your skills, you sort of 'have' to! |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2008 : 15:35:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
In my games the wizards tend to get nothin' unless they go a-lookin'. This isn't just important for balance, it's vital. Otherwise the wizard's strengths are just handed to them. The fighter is not gifted with a +3 broadsword upon reaching 15th level - she has to earn it.
This is what the whole idea of character customization is based around. Not only 'can' you tailor-make your skills, you sort of 'have' to!
Exactly!
The same is also true for item creation IMO. Its neat but also potentially imbalancing, so players should work for it instead of simply spending X pieces of gold and y days of game time (which are NOT a cost if they are simply fast forwarded) and z amount of XP. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 31 Oct 2008 15:48:02 |
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2008 : 17:01:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Personally I think its one of the problems of 3rd edition that Wizards get these spells on level up "for free". The PHB states that they are the result of research done in the downtime between adventures. I doubt many PCs actually do that though, so they effectively get them for free. Requiring a certain amount of gold - and most importantly time - spent on this research is one of the necessary methods to balance them. If a spell is pretty obscure you could increase the required amount of gold by a lot and if your player complains about this just say that no researcher ever knew ahead of time that he would succeed for sure.
I have to disagree. The 'free' spells always seemed to me to be those spells that the wizard 'figured out' while working with magic. There's nothing restricting them from buying scrolls and copying them to their spellbooks to gain additional spells, which costs both time and money.
In the Realms, especially, the free spells were how Mystra distributed new magic to the world (IMO).
I'm with Ashe. I think the PHB spells are standard and can be learned through experience with the use of magic during the adventures. But spells from other source books require research (often resulting in a personal quest) or be copied from a scroll or spellbook.
Speaking of spells (though this might be off topic) what's the deal with spell components with no costs? In my campaign the players can collect spell components automatically during their adventures to refill their pouch but components that cost gp have to be purchased. |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2008 : 17:11:22
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I suppose maybe you could rule that the any of the "chain spells" could be figured out without research, merely practice. For example, the jump from Summon Monster I to Summon Monster II really wouldn't require a great deal of effort, once a mage has become more attuned to the Weave (or...whatever it's called now) by leveling up.
However, isn't having to go out and LEARN spells the whole reason for becoming a wizard? It seems like a wizard that gains their power from internal energies is called a sorcerer....or dare I say it, a cleric. |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2008 : 17:22:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
I suppose maybe you could rule that the any of the "chain spells" could be figured out without research, merely practice. For example, the jump from Summon Monster I to Summon Monster II really wouldn't require a great deal of effort, once a mage has become more attuned to the Weave (or...whatever it's called now) by leveling up.
However, isn't having to go out and LEARN spells the whole reason for becoming a wizard? It seems like a wizard that gains their power from internal energies is called a sorcerer....or dare I say it, a cleric.
Ahh... But it's that flash of insight that the wizard gets so he can copy the spell into his spellbook. Sorcerers know the spell instinctively, but the wizard still has to write it down. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Ifthir
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2008 : 19:37:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
Speaking of spells (though this might be off topic) what's the deal with spell components with no costs? In my campaign the players can collect spell components automatically during their adventures to refill their pouch but components that cost gp have to be purchased.
I always believed any PC spellcaster worth his salt would have the Eschew Materials feat, myself. |
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AlorinDawn
Learned Scribe
USA
313 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2008 : 20:36:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ifthir
quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
Speaking of spells (though this might be off topic) what's the deal with spell components with no costs? In my campaign the players can collect spell components automatically during their adventures to refill their pouch but components that cost gp have to be purchased.
I always believed any PC spellcaster worth his salt would have the Eschew Materials feat, myself.
A generic spell component pouch is just lame IMO. Managing all your doodads, bug legs, crystals, bat poo, etc. was one of the challenges of magedom in detail oriented campaigns. You can know all the spells you want, however if you don't have the components you ain't casting jack... While I'm at it, the free spells when you level...lame as well. 3+ edition had some really nice additions to the game, but it also made everyone far more powerful than I like, but that again is juts my personal opinion. Rangers and Paladins hitting the spell casting levels was a huge deal back in the day. Now it's just status quo. |
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Ifthir
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2008 : 21:00:07
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quote:
Originally posted by AlorinDawn
A generic spell component pouch is just lame IMO. Managing all your doodads, bug legs, crystals, bat poo, etc. was one of the challenges of magedom in detail oriented campaigns. You can know all the spells you want, however if you don't have the components you ain't casting jack...
I respectfully disagree. The players in my group (and myself, as well) would much rather play a Wizard with the Eschew Materials feat, than without. The argument being that Wizards already have to do enough tedious tasks without another one. Of course, your mileage may vary. |
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2008 : 00:59:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ifthir
quote:
Originally posted by AlorinDawn
A generic spell component pouch is just lame IMO. Managing all your doodads, bug legs, crystals, bat poo, etc. was one of the challenges of magedom in detail oriented campaigns. You can know all the spells you want, however if you don't have the components you ain't casting jack...
I respectfully disagree. The players in my group (and myself, as well) would much rather play a Wizard with the Eschew Materials feat, than without. The argument being that Wizards already have to do enough tedious tasks without another one. Of course, your mileage may vary.
It's as tedious as the DM makes it. Though I have to admit playing a wizard takes some time, searching for a particular spell, shopping for a special component or just deciding wich spells to memorize. |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2008 : 08:04:41
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quote:
Originally posted by AlorinDawn
A generic spell component pouch is just lame IMO. Managing all your doodads, bug legs, crystals, bat poo, etc. was one of the challenges of magedom in detail oriented campaigns. You can know all the spells you want, however if you don't have the components you ain't casting jack...
Exactly right. The material components of a spell add
- flavour to the spells (Party Wizard: "Oh I will head down to the barn again, they have a particularly nice bull down there and I want some more dung for that Bulls Strength you all love.") and
- are a necessary limitation for spells.
If you take away the flavour and the limitation by making it too easy it starts imbalancing the classes somewhat. Personally I have added a spellcraft requirement to Eschew Materials to bring back the "learning curve" to spellcasting; it seemed somewhat illogical that apprentices start with that feat.
quote:
Originally posted by AlorinDawn
While I'm at it, the free spells when you level...lame as well. 3+ edition had some really nice additions to the game, but it also made everyone far more powerful than I like, but that again is juts my personal opinion. Rangers and Paladins hitting the spell casting levels was a huge deal back in the day. Now it's just status quo.
Wizards are the kings of flexibility and making them achieve this too easily is one of the reasons why they are always perceived as too powerful. Not requiring work for some powerful gain lessens the flavour of the game. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Wizard spells on level-up
